Colts minus 2.5 vs Pats

[RandomFan]

It is? Maybe for the Colts, not so much for the Patriots.

 

I meant so far. If the colts win we hold the tie breaker over the pats and the pats would then be behind us and denver.... 

[GoPats]

Butler and Brown were young players who were released from the Pats three years ago, early in their careers. (And of course, if Belichick didn't want them, that must mean they have no right ever stepping foot on a football field again.) Brown has just barely worked his way on the field defensively, and while he's been okay, there's nothing dynamic about him. But Butler, yeah, since he's been with the Colts, he's been really good. Last year, he was one of the best nickels in the league.

 

Browner is 30 years old. Older than either Butler or Brown were when the Pats released them. It's pretty obvious what he can and can't do. And the way he played last season in a very specific matchup is far more relevant than your overall opinion of Butler and Brown from three years ago.

 

Browner is an average corner. The Colts exploited a favorable matchup against him last year, and it's unlikely that he's suddenly better at 30 than he was at 29. I'm not necessarily calling him a liability, but the way he got burned last year is relevant to this year's game. Especially if he finds himself lined up across from TY Hilton.

 

The first comment in bold... you're totally putting words in my mouth. Where did I say that neither of those guys belong in the NFL just because Belichick cast them aside? That's counter to my actual point. (Is this your retaliation for earlier this week? ;)  LOL...) 

 

I get that you're not high on Browner. That's fine. You're a smart fan so I know you understand that some players, when put into certain systems, thrive. Factors like scheme, the players around him, and other things all make a difference. It's hard to argue with results. Browner has been a terrific complement to Revis' style that's also physical but is more predicated on technique than raw speed or athleticism. Maybe this is the week it unravels, but neither of us know that. 

 

To be fair, you can also point to the results when it comes to Butler. I get it. He's been good for you guys. Maybe it was coaching, maybe it was a lack of self-confidence in a young player who needed a change of scenery, maybe the Patriots gave up on him too early, I don't know. He's done well for you. But it's ridiculous (and so unlike you) to deem an opinion more relevant than another. You're basing this on one game Browner played against the Colts. I'm basing it on seeing Butler and Brown every week (albeit 3 years ago but again... see above). Guys develop. Again, I get it. 

 

We'll see how these guys all do I guess. Maybe you'll be right and Butler and Brown will not be liabilities, while Browner keeps getting burned on the other side. But maybe you won't. 

 

I'll actually be glad when this week is over. Been pretty hostile 'round here! 

[Superman]

The first comment in bold... you're totally putting words in my mouth. Where did I say that neither of those guys belong in the NFL just because Belichick cast them aside? That's counter to my actual point. (Is this your retaliation for earlier this week? ;)  LOL...) 

 

I'm being sarcastic, sorry. But there does seem to be an undercurrent of "if Bill didn't want them, they're probably not very good." 

 

I get that you're not high on Browner. That's fine. You're a smart fan so I know you understand that some players, when put into certain systems, thrive. Factors like scheme, the players around him, and other things all make a difference. It's hard to argue with results. Browner has been a terrific complement to Revis' style that's also physical but is more predicated on technique than raw speed or athleticism. Maybe this is the week it unravels, but neither of us know that. 

 

 

Of course scheme matters. But let's talk about that.

 

The Seahawks' scheme was based on a good pass rush and really good safety play, to take some pressure off of corners having to defend the middle of the field. Sherman and Browner benefited from that scheme, greatly, playing a lot of zone coverage and not having to try to chase quick receivers on in cutting routes or stick closely on double moves. They prefer to sit on the outside and take away the deep third and the sideline, and if you go inside, you're running in front of Earl Thomas, or across Kam Chancellor. So if anything, Browner's job in Seattle was easier than it is in New England. They had a better pass rush and more dynamic safety play, and they played a lot more zone defense than the Pats do. 

 

Now, Browner's results have been decent, in a very small sample. Perhaps he's well suited for the Pats' scheme. But it's not like he was viewed as a terrible corner in Seattle. He had good results, for the most part, there. But he struggled in primary coverage against good receivers, particularly against speedsters. And that's in a scheme that made life easier for outside corners. It's also in a year that saw the fewest illegal contact penalties on DBs in the last decade, prompting the NFL to again crack down on coverage penalties. And even in a small sample size, we've seen Browner get flagged for being too grabby. 

 

So yeah, I'm not quite sold on Browner being the perfect complement to Revis, and even if he is, I still don't think he matches up well with the Colts receivers. I think we all agree that he can't cover Hilton, and I don't think he'll get many opportunities to try, so it will be about how he plays against Reggie and everyone else.

 

One more thing on scheme: I don't think it's advisable to put Browner over our TEs in the box. We're looking for favorable box matchups, and we'll check to run plays. I know the Pats stopped the Broncos early on with a light box, and if you can stop the run with Browner in the box, that's a huge win for you guys, but I doubt that will happen against the Colts. We have a different kind of rushing attack than the Broncos.

 

To be fair, you can also point to the results when it comes to Butler. I get it. He's been good for you guys. Maybe it was coaching, maybe it was a lack of self-confidence in a young player who needed a change of scenery, maybe the Patriots gave up on him too early, I don't know. He's done well for you. But it's ridiculous (and so unlike you) to deem an opinion more relevant than another. You're basing this on one game Browner played against the Colts. I'm basing it on seeing Butler and Brown every week (albeit 3 years ago but again... see above). Guys develop. Again, I get it. 

 

I guess I wasn't clear. My point is that Butler and Brown were with the Pats in 2011, when they were in their early 20s. We saw Browner just last year, at 29. It's far more likely that younger players would make improvement, compared with a guy who is now 30, who has been in and out of the league already, and whose main strength as a press corner has been mitigated by adjustments in officiating.

 

And again, you saw Butler and Brown a long time ago, in football terms. There are hundreds of guys who have come and gone since in this league since Braylon Edwards did the Dougie on Darius Butler (including Braylon Edwards). 

 

We'll see how these guys all do I guess. Maybe you'll be right and Butler and Brown will not be liabilities, while Browner keeps getting burned on the other side. But maybe you won't. 

 

I'll actually be glad when this week is over. Been pretty hostile 'round here! 

 

 

I think Butler will be fine. We've seen him against Edelman, Welker, etc. Brown is another story. He's done pretty well over the last month, but this will be a big test.

 

I never said I think Browner is going to get burned, period. I don't think he can cover Hilton, no matter what, but how effective Browner is depends on how he's deployed. 

 

It has been a little tense around here. This Colts/Pats talk started early because of the mutual bye.

[Dustin]

 

One more thing on scheme: I don't think it's advisable to put Browner over our TEs in the box. We're looking for favorable box matchups, and we'll check to run plays. I know the Pats stopped the Broncos early on with a light box, and if you can stop the run with Browner in the box, that's a huge win for you guys, but I doubt that will happen against the Colts. We have a different kind of rushing attack than the Broncos.

 

 

lol right. Put Browner over Allen and watch Luck change to a run and have Allen completely wash him out of the play. 

[Superman]

lol right. Put Browner over Allen and watch Luck change to a run and have Allen completely wash him out of the play. 

 

Right, Allen is a much better run blocker than Julius Thomas. 

[The Old Crow]

I'm going with the Colts at home. The Patriots are playing well, but could be ready for a letdown like the Steelers were against the Jets. Nice home win against Denver, but that road blowout against KC has stayed in my mind. If this game was in NE, different story.

[JerodMayo51]

They were a mess the first four games with lots of guys rotating in and out. They have found stability now and some of that is their center Stork who is a rookie. He has helped stabilize and the other guys are simply just playing better. They had a very good game vs Denver who has a nasty front. But in addition, Brady is moving well in the pocket and outside of it. He has been saying all season that he worked hard on his foot work this off-season and it is really showing.

I don't know about the three sacks. Who you have to bring that type of heat with Mathis out?

I honestly think another reason for the vast improvement is that they've faced so many teams with ferocious front sevens..

Dolphins, Bills, Chiefs, Bengals, Broncos and the Jets all have very talented front sevens.

To be the best, you have to beat the best and I think that's a huge reason why they've gotten so much better because they've seen some of the best defensive fronts in the Nfl...

They still have Detroit coming up as well, their front is no joke.

But also with mankins gone and 5 rookies at one point starting, it took them time to become a cohesive unit

[JerodMayo51]

It's a credit to BB's football program that INDY keeps grabbing guys off your roster GP. If someone is always a thorn in your side, steal from them as often as the opportunity presents itself. They don't call the NFL a copy cat league for nothing. Butler & Brown may be cast offs to Foxboro fans, but they have made valuable contributions to me. You train them & we take them off your hands. I like this arrangement.

Just like Adam V., give it enough time & we will replace Adam with Stephen Gostkowski too. Just watch. It's like a bank robber who lets someone else do all the leg work & heavy lifting? Why break a sweat right? LOL!

The Colts better keep their filthy hands away from Ghostkowksi!

The Pats won't let a young kicker go over money. They, more than most probably, understand the value of a great kicker.

They'll franchise Ghostkowksi 2 years in a row if they have to, just like they did with Adam V.

The thought of Ghost going the way of AV to Indy makes my stomach churn!! Stay away!!!

[JerodMayo51]

lol right. Put Browner over Allen and watch Luck change to a run and have Allen completely wash him out of the play.

I do think they'll mix it up with TE coverages, but I suspect they'll involve Jamie Collins a lot in coverage on Allen as well, which is a wash as far as size and athleticism..

It does not give the Colts any advantage if they check into a run with Collins matched up on either TE.

Collins is a 1st round talent that BB got by trading back out of the 28th spot (where the Vikings took Patterson) and landing him in the second.

Was definitely an excellent maneuver in that draft to get a talent like Collins along with extra draft picks.

That's the reason they got him, he's a chess piece that has the athleticism and size to match up on any RB or TE in the league.

Heck, last year against the Broncos he was smothering Wes Welker in coverage and he's 6'3" 250 lbs! Hes a freak of an athlete and only in his 2nd year.

[Superman]

The Colts better keep their filthy hands away from Ghostkowksi!

The Pats won't let a young kicker go over money. They, more than most probably, understand the value of a great kicker.

They'll franchise Ghostkowksi 2 years in a row if they have to, just like they did with Adam V.

The thought of Ghost going the way of AV to Indy makes my stomach churn!! Stay away!!!

I doubt they're interested. The past two years, we brought in UDFA kickers. Both guys are now playing for other teams, and well. We probably won't be signing a veteran kicker once AV retires.

[TAPLOOK]

Kicking is at a whole new level now and many kids aspire to be college and NFL kickers. More high schools have a kicking game every year now. It was pretty rare to see even a decade ago. 

[ViriLudant]

Kicking is at a whole new level now and many kids aspire to be college and NFL kickers. More high schools have a kicking game every year now. It was pretty rare to see even a decade ago.

Interesting, the top high school kicker goes to Milton Academy. As a freshman, I saw him kick a 53 yard FG. He's going to Notre Dame next year.

[TAPLOOK]

Interesting, the top high school kicker goes to Milton Academy. As a freshman, I saw him kick a 53 yard FG. He's going to Notre Dame next year.

 

In the coming years 50-60 yard FG's are going to be as common as the 40-50's of today. You'll also see bigger more athletic kickers who aren't a pushover on D. There's money to be made in kicking.

[JerodMayo51]

In the coming years 50-60 yard FG's are going to be as common as the 40-50's of today. You'll also see bigger more athletic kickers who aren't a pushover on D. There's money to be made in kicking.

It's the best position to play imo.. a good kicker will make 3-4 mill a year and can play well into their mid to late 40s. . That's a lot of earning potential!

Add the fact that they don't expose themselves to these viscous hits that concuss players and probably have the easiest training camp out of anyone and have to spend the least amount of time in the film room...

Life is good as an NFL kicker!

[southwest1]

The Colts better keep their filthy hands away from Ghostkowksi!

The Pats won't let a young kicker go over money. They, more than most probably, understand the value of a great kicker.

They'll franchise Ghostkowksi 2 years in a row if they have to, just like they did with Adam V.

The thought of Ghost going the way of AV to Indy makes my stomach churn!! Stay away!!!

Gronk is a fantastic TE BTW. Shannon Sharpe 3.0 JM51. He's safe & sound within the confines of Foxboro my friend trust me. You should be a comedian man. You're a riot! That's a complement BTW; I'm not being smug.

 

Okay, I know you were taking about your kicker. I just got confused with Gronk vs Ghostkowski there for a minute. 

 

Darn, I was hoping that since BB is such a wise salary cap spender he'd cut Stephen loose. He's a superb FG kicker man. No Bull...Well, you get my point. NE has a knack for finding money kickers man. It's a gift. 

 

Your 1st line in your reply reminded me of that Charlton Heston line from the 1968 film Planet Of The Apes: "Take your stinking paws off me, you darned dirty ape!" 

[basketballsteve]

That's why I'm eating clam chowda all week. When I eat clam chowda during Patriots week we have won. Not always, but it's helped in the past

Really cause I've been chowing on the Boston baked beans all week in an effort to find the Patriots weakness but so far all I've discovered is my own gas-tric weakness so maybe I should rethink my strategy? Are you sure this works?

[basketballsteve]

I doubt they're interested. The past two years, we brought in UDFA kickers. Both guys are now playing for other teams, and well. We probably won't be signing a veteran kicker once AV retires.

When AV retires it will be as they used to say on SNL...."It's Pat"

[Superman]

When AV retires it will be as they used to say on SNL...."It's Pat"

 

Maybe so. 

[JerodMayo51]

Gronk is a fantastic TE BTW. Shannon Sharpe 3.0 JM51. He's safe & sound within the confines of Foxboro my friend trust me. You should be a comedian man. You're a riot! That's a complement BTW; I'm not being smug.

 

Okay, I know you were taking about your kicker. I just got confused with Gronk vs Ghostkowski there for a minute. 

 

Darn, I was hoping that since BB is such a wise salary cap spender he'd cut Stephen loose. He's a superb FG kicker man. No Bull...Well, you get my point. NE has a knack for finding money kickers man. It's a gift. 

 

Your 1st line in your reply reminded me of that Charlton Heston line from the 1968 film Planet Of The Apes: "Take your stinking paws off me, you darned dirty ape!" 

 

well im glad you get my sense of humor  

 

I butt heads a lot here, but a lot of times I incorporate subtle jabs that are meant more as a friendly ribbing than anything else and it can sometimes go overlooked...

 

Superman, as much as he may despise me at times, can pick up on a few of them ;)

 

At the end of the day... i have a very high level of respect for the Colts organization and the die hard fans that are on this board... but i will always challenge people's minds and force them to think and defend their points of view. 

 

I can certainly get carried away sometimes and its something I'm working on, but usually its just because im defensive of my man-crush Tom Brady and my favorite team the Pats!!!

[thedude]

In my mind, this is a tough game to handicap.

[NewColtsFan]

 

Superman, as much as he may despise me at times, can pick up on a few of them ;)

 

Honestly,   I don't think Superman despises anyone around here.     I know, I know,  it surprises me too.....

 

He just likes a few posters a little bit less than the rest of us.....  

[JerodMayo51]

Honestly,   I don't think Superman despises anyone around here.     I know, I know,  it surprises me too.....

 

He just likes a few posters a little bit less than the rest of us.....  

 

 

the mods here are great!  and I know I make their jobs harder than it has to be.. but what fun would it be otherwise? ;)

[southwest1]

well im glad you get my sense of humor

 

I butt heads a lot here, but a lot of times I incorporate subtle jabs that are meant more as a friendly ribbing than anything else and it can sometimes go overlooked...

 

Superman, as much as he may despise me at times, can pick up on a few of them ;)

 

At the end of the day... i have a very high level of respect for the Colts organization and the die hard fans that are on this board... but i will always challenge people's minds and force them to think and defend their points of view. 

 

I can certainly get carried away sometimes and its something I'm working on, but usually its just because im defensive of my man-crush Tom Brady and my favorite team the Pats!!!

You're alright in my book man. The only reason people resent the Patriots is because they win 12 games roughly over 10 years straight. Plus, BB can plug guys in & still win. In 2008, when Brady got his season ending knee injury, I was blown away that NE won 11 games that season under QB Matt Cassel. Wow. Your squad is always in the Playoff hunt no matter what. It's quite impressive actually. 

 

No need to apologize for Brady idol worship JM51. The guy's a proven winner, knows when to rally the troops, & the more miserable the weather the better he plays. 

 

I like that about you actually. You force members to articulate why they believe what they believe. TBH with you, I'm no formation expert like BrentMc11, Dustin, or Jvan is, but I love the psychology of games mentally & how teams handle injuries, coming from behind, & sealing the Championship door shut on their adversary. Great stuff man. 

 

Keep the humor coming BTW. I can take it. LOL! I've gotta say I really like talking football with you & my other NE friends. All smart people & funnier than hades man. 

 

If you win Sunday, you're entitled to brag a little...You will have earned that right. Because if INDY wins, I'm gonna gloat a little. Not much though because I know we will meet again in the post season. 

[LordHelpOurColts]

Hopefully it's a shootout in the 40's.

[southwest1]

Hopefully it's a shootout in the 40's.

I really don't care what the final score is as long as INDY wins the game. It can be by a FG for all I care. Just have an extra set of eyes on Julian Edelman & we gotta have our best runs when Vince Wilfork is getting a breather on the sidelines. Hopefully #75 will be hot & sweaty inhaling oxygen by the middle of the 3rd QTR. 

 

NO FALSE STARTS INSIDE LOS EITHER PLEASE. That's the 1 penalty at home that always infuriates me. Our guys know Luck's cadence & the crowd is quiet so stay focused & just execute plays thank you. 

 

Yeah, I know in another thread I said I wanted a shootout on both sides which does intrigue me, but at the end of the night, sloppy, scrappy, or 1 sided just get the darn W by any means necessary. 

[jvan1973]

When AV retires it will be as they used to say on SNL...."It's Pat"

then we will have to get a new punter

[oldunclemark]

Ive seen the over-under on this game at 57..which is as high as I've seen a pro game in years...

But I'd bet it goes over