Too early to think in new HC?

[John Dee]

Andy when has this team been at it's best?  

 

Out side of the SF game, A very LONG time ago...    they seem to start "clicking" when Pep abandons the JUMBO nonsense and lets Luck do his thing... 

 

and that is just not debatable.    get behind and let Andrew catch us up...

 

Sigh...       Had the EAGLES scored in the red zone...       the vibe of this game would be 100% different.  And the Eagles had a 3rd string LT starting ... and our D could NOT take advantage.

 

It is the same formula EVERY week...       same game plan.     And then let Andrew bring them back.    

 

Sigh...

 

This

 

Listen, I don't like the way the Colts have played in the first two games. It's one half football (and it was like that a bit of last year too), but the fact of the matter is, the Colts have been to the playoffs the last two years and even got a win in the playoffs. They are way ahead of schedule in this Pagano era, so even thinking of getting rid of him is a dumb idea.

 

A big thumbs down to this thread.

[DrLuck]

Listen, I don't like the way the Colts have played in the first two games. It's one half football (and it was like that a bit of last year too), but the fact of the matter is, the Colts have been to the playoffs the last two years and even got a win in the playoffs. They are way ahead of schedule in this Pagano era, so even thinking of getting rid of him is a dumb idea.

A big thumbs down to this thread.

That's a huge, huge oversimplification. This isn't a game of "good enough" it's one where you need every advantage you can get. This veiw assumes it's impossible to have success with bad coaching. That's not true, Pagano is not adequately doing his job as a HC and as the leader of a group of grown men. As I said before, when an AC makes the same mistake week after week the blame is shared with the HC for allowing it too happen. I for one, am tired of seeing the colts players pull games out in spite of the horrible gameplanning, roster management, and leadership. It's the same old story, come in with a head scratching approach, fall behind several scores, abandon horrible gameplan and let andrew dig them out the hole. Just because Luck usually pulls it off doesn't mean it's good football.

[John Dee]

I agree with so much of this... 

 

I have never seen a team start as flat as often as Indy has the last 2 seasons...      It is an issue.

 

Student body right,    .. .and then left ...     and ......  until we are down 21 points doesn't help either.  

 

And yes I know Indy had a lead Monday night.        they had one.     

 

 

That's a huge, huge oversimplification. This isn't a game of "good enough" it's one where you need every advantage you can get. This veiw assumes it's impossible to have success with bad coaching. That's not true, Pagano is not adequately doing his job as a HC and as the leader of a group of grown men. As I said before, when an AC makes the same mistake week after week the blame is shared with the HC for allowing it too happen. I for one, am tired of seeing the colts players pull games out in spite of the horrible gameplanning, roster management, and leadership. It's the same old story, come in with a head scratching approach, fall behind several scores, abandon horrible gameplan and let andrew dig them out the hole. Just because Luck usually pulls it off doesn't mean it's good football.

[lollygagger8]

Hmm, that's a clever pun.

 

To the "throw out of the same formation," that's why I asked you to be specific about what would have been better on the final two drives. No matter, though. I think the 2nd and 4 after a six yard run was the time for a play action pass, so I agree, to an extent. Overall, though, I would have been fine with continuing to run the ball, because overall, it was working. But again, I think the QB ought to be able to eat on 3rd and 5, consistently.

 

I agree, let him throw it on 3rd and 5. 

 

Hindsight is great because the run on first got 6 yards, but if you are asking me what I would've done different, I would've thrown it every down. Play action, sideline to Reggie or whoever, or actually throw a pass to the middle of the field. Utilize our RB's in space. We all know they are difficult to bring down.....throw it to them!

 

I get that the same route to TY had worked twice (or however many) before, but Defense's start to remember patterns, and we used it one too many times. I think if we're going to throw that same pattern for the umpteenth time, change it up. Use Nicks or Wayne or ALLEN (who had zero catches). Or if your in love with the same exact route to TY (or whoever) run it out of that unbalanced formation instead. 

 

Bottom line what I'm getting at, is Pep needs to be more creative. Keep the defense guessing instead of telling them hey, based on this formation, we run this play every single time. I don't care if the run was working for most of the time....what works against the Eagles, might not work against the Texans or whoever. You are producing plenty of tape for other teams to figure out.

 

I love Vanilla to be my ice cream, not my favorite football team. 

[Jeff Tolle]

Fire Pep , we have too many weapons for that bland play calling. Tie game, and we have the ball. Run, Run, really. Dip $ h/t. Absolutely terrible! !!

[coltsblue1844]

My honest opinion...and I don't expect everyone to agree...

 

When we made the decision to move on from Peyton Manning and start over with Andrew Luck, we should NOT have went with completely unproven coaches and a completely unproven GM, in my opinion.  We went with the "unknown" because Irsay didn't want a "retread"...  But by doing so, we have found out, again in my opinion, that both our GM and Coaching staff are in over their heads... and the worst part of this is that with such a young team, it does damage by forcing a new system on them every year, from the OC spot...but then again if you don't make changes, then it will have an even longer lasting effect...    So I believe that we have "wasted" the first 3 years of the team's careers, with trying out the "new/unknown" guys... when we should have went with someone who was already established...   Nearly ANY coach or oc or even GM would've jumped at the chance to rebuild in a great football city, with the #1 pick in each round of the draft, along with Andrew Luck.

 

We have the best young QB to come along in decades...and have had the most salary cap space of nearly any team, for the past 2 years...yet have again went with "unknown/unproven" guys on our O-Line...which considering we let Peyton go to start over with Andrew, makes no sense to not get a top notch, proven offensive line put together.   If you want young guys, get young talent at positions that adapt to the NFL much quicker...  or make the o-line a top priority in the draft, instead of waiting until the later rounds.   We have watched several top free agent olinemen go to other teams...and have drafted players at other positions, when guys like Larry Warford were available etc... just doesn't make sense to me.   We have a top QB and good RBs and want to be balanced...but do nothing to make it happen.

 

Just my 2 cents

[dw49]

I get what you're saying. When we talk about coaching costing us a game, aren't we usually talking about in-game decisions? 

 

I don't give anyone a pass because of Mathis being gone. Just saying that his absence wasn't foreseeable, I don't think, and it's the main reason we don't have a pass rush right now. Newsome is a potential pass rush threat, but he just played his second game (had a hurry, also). Werner is supposed to be doing more than he's done, but we've played two teams that do a good job of keeping pass rush at bay (especially after Philly gave up so much pressure in the opener; I'm sure that was a point of emphasis for them in practice this week). 

 

As for the veteran defensive guys that you listed, we could go through that list one by one if we wanted, but what it boils down to is that our defense has been built through free agency, and most of our starters are older guys on veteran level starters' contracts. We have some young DL through the draft, but we have zero drafted DBs on our roster. LBs are a mixed bag, but the only young playmaker we have is Freeman. And he wasn't drafted. Werner and Newsome might be around for awhile, but we're a ways away from being able to rely on them to help us win games.

 

I'm fine with the players we've drafted, for the most part, but there's no question that we've spent more draft resources on the offensive side of the ball. I think that has to change in 2015. We have a young OL that can grow together, we have some young receiving options, we obviously have a QB. We need some young playmakers on defense that can grow together. 

 

 

Sorry , I should have said I was going a bit off topic. Just was interested in what you thought of what Irsay has brought in to run this team "post Polian." Yes going stickily by the thread , I should have been talking about if Pagano and staff costs the Colts this game. I would answer that by saying they did nothing egregious that cost the Colts the game. Am i sure that this is an excellent coaching staff ? No I'm not sure and I think in all fairness , we can better answer that in December or January.

[PrincetonTiger]

Grigs did sign a Center in the offseason(Phil Costa) but he retired not long after

[coltsblue1844]

Phil Costa sucked before he retired anyhow.

[Superman]

We have the best young QB to come along in decades...and have had the most salary cap space of nearly any team, for the past 2 years...yet have again went with "unknown/unproven" guys on our O-Line...which considering we let Peyton go to start over with Andrew, makes no sense to not get a top notch, proven offensive line put together.   If you want young guys, get young talent at positions that adapt to the NFL much quicker...  or make the o-line a top priority in the draft, instead of waiting until the later rounds.   We have watched several top free agent olinemen go to other teams...and have drafted players at other positions, when guys like Larry Warford were available etc... just doesn't make sense to me.   We have a top QB and good RBs and want to be balanced...but do nothing to make it happen.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

Why are we complaining about the offensive line after this game? 

[coltsblue1844]

Because they're not good? Yeah we ran the ball pretty well in this one game...but had to rely on running a jumbo type formation most of the game, just to do that...And our pass game suffers because we get blown up, up the middle on every pass play.

[coltsblue1844]

I could just as easily ask why people are down on Trent all the time for his yards per carry average, when he normally gets hit behind the line on every carry n fights for the few yards he gets...

And Luck is the most hit/pressured QB in the NFL...so why after one game are we acting like we have even an AVERAGE line?

[Superman]

Sorry , I should have said I was going a bit off topic. Just was interested in what you thought of what Irsay has brought in to run this team "post Polian." Yes going stickily by the thread , I should have been talking about if Pagano and staff costs the Colts this game. I would answer that by saying they did nothing egregious that cost the Colts the game. Am i sure that this is an excellent coaching staff ? No I'm not sure and I think in all fairness , we can better answer that in December or January.

 

Yeah, I know you're not sold on Pagano, in particular. We had a discussion about his 4th down decision making after the Pats loss last year. Aside from the first drive against the Broncos, I think his 4th downs have been handled properly this year. My argument at the time was that I appreciate when a coach admits his mistakes, and I look for him to make better decisions in the future. We'll see how Pagano does on 4th down moving forward, but I think he's firmly in plus territory so far this season.

 

As for the overall question, I think it's hard to judge our team building and coaching, so far. On the one hand, we're well beyond where anyone thought we'd be at this point. (Two years ago, people were throwing a fit because we gave up a 2nd for Vontae Davis -- "We're going to suck anyways, a 2nd is like a late 1st for us, this is stupid!!!" Now, people are acting like anything short of a championship is a waste of Andrew Luck's career.) On the other hand, I think we've missed some opportunities to add some really good players, and now we have to make up for that.

 

If I'm grading everything on a macro level, I'm confident in the overall direction of the franchise. If I break it down to micro and start looking at each individual decision, I can easily find things to complain about. But that's true of every team, even the very best. The Seahawks struggle to pass block, and I think they gave up waaaay too much for Percy Harvin last season (and won the Super Bowl mostly without him). The Broncos cut their second best pass rusher in 2013, then their best pass rusher was suspended and eventually got hurt. The Pats have been inconsistent offensively since the start of 2013. Grade anyone on a micro level, and you'll find issues. That's why the Browns can beat the Saints, why the Texans can go 2-14, etc. 

 

I think the remainder of this season will give us plenty to consider, but I think Pagano and company have done a good job of getting adjusted in the past, and I expect them to get things going moving forward.

[Superman]

Because they're not good? Yeah we ran the ball pretty well in this one game...but had to rely on running a jumbo type formation most of the game, just to do that...And our pass game suffers because we get blown up, up the middle on every pass play.

 

I could just as easily ask why people are down on Trent all the time for his yards per carry average, when he normally gets hit behind the line on every carry n fights for the few yards he gets...

And Luck is the most hit/pressured QB in the NFL...so why after one game are we acting like we have even an AVERAGE line?

 

I've been very clearly passive on criticizing Richardson, because the line has been very bad. 

 

But at a certain point, we have to acknowledge improvement, and stop harping on the past. It's over. Now, our line play is much improved, and that showed very clearly Monday night. (I think it showed in the opener; I think Luck's pressures were mostly his fault, and we hardly even tried to run the ball.) The line isn't even worth discussing for another few games, but so far, we've had positive results.

[Jason_]

I think the Colts are as good as they will ever get under Pags.        He is a career secondary coach.       One year as a DC in Balt.       He is just average.     I want ELITE.         I want Irsay to put he full court press on Jimbo Harbaugh next season.   

 

Pags is good, but all the SLOW starts, conservative play calling, and stubbornness / accountability to certain players just stinks of AVERAGE to me.      A great HC has to be flexable.    Chuck seems to think if he wills it it will come.

 

Take away Andrew Luck's what?    9 fourth Q comebacks and Chuck is already gone.   Simply reality.

 

I just don't get that "winning" vibe with Pag's and Pep...          Manusky?   This D has NOT ONE play maker on it.    He is in a hopeless spot.

 

I find it unbelievably funny that you want to get rid of Pep and Pagano and bring in Harbaugh.  Who's offense do you think the Colts are trying hardest to emulate? Minus the read-option of course.

[Superman]

I agree, let him throw it on 3rd and 5. 

 

Hindsight is great because the run on first got 6 yards, but if you are asking me what I would've done different, I would've thrown it every down. Play action, sideline to Reggie or whoever, or actually throw a pass to the middle of the field. Utilize our RB's in space. We all know they are difficult to bring down.....throw it to them!

 

I get that the same route to TY had worked twice (or however many) before, but Defense's start to remember patterns, and we used it one too many times. I think if we're going to throw that same pattern for the umpteenth time, change it up. Use Nicks or Wayne or ALLEN (who had zero catches). Or if your in love with the same exact route to TY (or whoever) run it out of that unbalanced formation instead. 

 

Bottom line what I'm getting at, is Pep needs to be more creative. Keep the defense guessing instead of telling them hey, based on this formation, we run this play every single time. I don't care if the run was working for most of the time....what works against the Eagles, might not work against the Texans or whoever. You are producing plenty of tape for other teams to figure out.

 

I love Vanilla to be my ice cream, not my favorite football team. 

 

Fair enough.

 

I'm personally not enraptured with the concept of creativity. Fire will always burn wood. I just want good execution and effective play calling. I couldn't care less if the defense knows we're running off left tackle, if they can't stop it. Do what works.

 

What I've been advocating, however, is play action. Like you said, play action off of the unbalanced line would have been devastating on several occasions. To me, that's not creativity, that's a basic staple of a well-rounded offense. Why Pep doesn't get that is mind-boggling, but that's a different story. 

 

In the specific instances we've been discussing, I'm more upset with the execution than the play calling. I think Luck needs to make plays, and he hasn't been doing so consistently. 

[coltsblue1844]

Our line was horrible most all of last season, but played a good game vs SF...yet was still one of the very worst in the league...sorry, but I really need more than one good run blocking game to deem our line much improved, or say the problems are in the past.

[Superman]

Our line was horrible most all of last season, but played a good game vs SF...yet was still one of the very worst in the league...sorry, but I really need more than one good run blocking game to deem our line much improved, or say the problems are in the past.

 

That's fine. I'm not expecting you to jump up and down singing their praises. But it rings hollow to complain about the offensive line after a pretty good game. We're two games in; it's not unreasonable to be encouraged by better line play so far. Don't be a prisoner of the past.

[aliveon2legs]

Mike Chappell ‏@mchappell51  3m

Pagano: Unbalanced O-line vs. Philly. It's something you're going to want to have. Ball control, sustained drives important

[dw49]

Yeah, I know you're not sold on Pagano, in particular. We had a discussion about his 4th down decision making after the Pats loss last year. Aside from the first drive against the Broncos, I think his 4th downs have been handled properly this year. My argument at the time was that I appreciate when a coach admits his mistakes, and I look for him to make better decisions in the future. We'll see how Pagano does on 4th down moving forward, but I think he's firmly in plus territory so far this season.

 

As for the overall question, I think it's hard to judge our team building and coaching, so far. On the one hand, we're well beyond where anyone thought we'd be at this point. (Two years ago, people were throwing a fit because we gave up a 2nd for Vontae Davis -- "We're going to suck anyways, a 2nd is like a late 1st for us, this is stupid!!!" Now, people are acting like anything short of a championship is a waste of Andrew Luck's career.) On the other hand, I think we've missed some opportunities to add some really good players, and now we have to make up for that.

 

If I'm grading everything on a macro level, I'm confident in the overall direction of the franchise. If I break it down to micro and start looking at each individual decision, I can easily find things to complain about. But that's true of every team, even the very best. The Seahawks struggle to pass block, and I think they gave up waaaay too much for Percy Harvin last season (and won the Super Bowl mostly without him). The Broncos cut their second best pass rusher in 2013, then their best pass rusher was suspended and eventually got hurt. The Pats have been inconsistent offensively since the start of 2013. Grade anyone on a micro level, and you'll find issues. That's why the Browns can beat the Saints, why the Texans can go 2-14, etc. 

 

I think the remainder of this season will give us plenty to consider, but I think Pagano and company have done a good job of getting adjusted in the past, and I expect them to get things going moving forward.

 

 

I have no real issues with any of his 4th down decisions this year. I think the one in Denver was wrong but at least it was early and it's one that really shouldn't have had a big impact on winning or losing the game. The one I had the most problem with was the San Diego game. There he made not 1 but 2 brutally bad decisions that probably moved our win % down from around 50% to 25%. The one in NE was boneheaded and he just didn't think about it . But we weren't winning that one anyway. Maybe a guy can actually improve on those if he just realizes that you don't go into a Bud Grant "auto drive" and just go through the thought process of "what really gives the team the best chance to win the game." 

[grmasterb]

So much focus on Pep and the offense in this thread. As frustrating and perplexing as the O can be, the Colts scored 27 points Monday night and controlled time of possession. That should've been good enough to win.

When Irsay brought in the new regime, he stated a desire to have a more balanced (O/D) team. Now we're into year 3 and I don't see the defense improving. Is that on Pagano? Grigson? Manusky (who, BTW, was not the Colts' first choice for DC)? All of the above? I'm not certain.

Recall, too, that Irsay has cited the Rooneys and Maras as his owner role models. They are known to be patient with HCs, particularly the Rooneys. I'm 45, and the Steelers have had only three HCs in my lifetime. So, I think Irsay sticks with Pagano even if the team regresses and misses the playoffs. I could see coordinator changes, however, especially the DC. One wildcard that could change all of that, though ..... If Jim Harbaugh is available.

[dw49]

Hmm, that's a clever pun.

 

To the "throw out of the same formation," that's why I asked you to be specific about what would have been better on the final two drives. No matter, though. I think the 2nd and 4 after a six yard run was the time for a play action pass, so I agree, to an extent. Overall, though, I would have been fine with continuing to run the ball, because overall, it was working. But again, I think the QB ought to be able to eat on 3rd and 5, consistently.

 

 

Pagano's take on the final drive...I have to agree that the second down run was a bad call as I'm very used to seeing Richardson swarmed under when the opposition was thinking run. But hey .. hindsite is always 20-20.

 

http://www.stampedeblue.com/2014/9/16/6275749/chuck-pagano-admits-coaching-mistake-on-final-offensive-drive

[Superman]

Pagano's take on the final drive...I have to agree that the second down run was a bad call as I'm very used to seeing Richardson swarmed under when the opposition was thinking run. But hey .. hindsite is always 20-20.

 

http://www.stampedeblue.com/2014/9/16/6275749/chuck-pagano-admits-coaching-mistake-on-final-offensive-drive

 

Read option. Read option. Read option.

[dw49]

Read option. Read option. Read option.

 

 

Like that

[lollygagger8]

So much focus on Pep and the offense in this thread. As frustrating and perplexing as the O can be, the Colts scored 27 points Monday night and controlled time of possession. That should've been good enough to win.

 

 

You are right, you would think that'd be enough point to win, but it's the same thing with the Broncos.....we knew it was going to be a shoot out. I feel we took our foot off the gas, and we didn't even test the Eagles secondary. 

 

We are stacked with pass catching talent but only 4 of the 50+ passing attempts were beyond 20 yards. That's under-utilizing your best weapons on the field. 

[Superman]

You are right, you would think that'd be enough point to win, but it's the same thing with the Broncos.....we knew it was going to be a shoot out. I feel we took our foot off the gas, and we didn't even test the Eagles secondary. 

 

We are stacked with pass catching talent but only 4 of the 50+ passing attempts were beyond 20 yards. That's under-utilizing your best weapons on the field. 

 

There were plenty of targets down the field. The play caller isn't the one choosing who to throw the ball to.

[lollygagger8]

There were plenty of targets down the field. The play caller isn't the one choosing who to throw the ball to.

 

I didn't say it was all on the play caller. Quit cherry picking everything I post.

 

Luck didn't hit plenty of open receivers. Heck, he didn't throw the ball well all night. 

[Superman]

I didn't say it was all on the play caller. Quit cherry picking everything I post.

 

Luck didn't hit plenty of open receivers. Heck, he didn't throw the ball well all night. 

 

How is it cherry picking? Has your point not been that Pep called a bad game?

 

You want downfield targets, the QB has to throw the ball downfield. And like you said, he has to throw the ball accurately.

[lollygagger8]

How is it cherry picking? Has your point not been that Pep called a bad game?

 

You want downfield targets, the QB has to throw the ball downfield. And like you said, he has to throw the ball accurately.

 

Where did I say Pep in my post? 

 

Pep calls the plays, Luck executes the plays. It's on both of them. 

[Superman]

Where did I say Pep in my post? 

 

Pep calls the plays, Luck executes the plays. It's on both of them. 

 

It's not like you hadn't been talking about Pep the whole time.

 

If I misunderstood your comment as a criticism of Pep, then I apologize. But yes, I think there have been downfield options, and for varied reasons, Luck has chosen not to pull the trigger.