How come Terry Bradshaw is never brought up in the GOAT argumemt?

[BOTT]

I had this discussion with my dad who is 80 and a life long Red Sox fan. Has Williams diminished in light of David Ortiz? My answer is yes. As great of a career as Williams had, Oriz is the real Mr. October.

Teddy Ballgame > Mr Steroids

[amfootball]

Teddy Ballgame > Mr Steroids

That is fair. But this is the steroid era so categorize that however you want. But Teddy Ballgame also did not face pitchers who were juiced up as well.

[AntonMcG]

You don't feel Jordan, Montana and Brady were most responsible for their teams rings? They have 11 Finals/SB MVPs among them.

 

Stop comparing football and basketball... once again they are completely different no matter how many attempts you make to lump them together.

 

You do realize team play 18/19 games to get to the Super Bowl, right? They need to win those game to get there... and again, game MVPs may indicate that they player was the best on his team that day, but he did not catch his own passes, he did not block for himself, and did not kick field goals and he did not play defense.

 

I am getting sick of getting no where with this... ignorance must be bliss.

[amfootball]

Stop comparing football and basketball... once again they are completely different no matter how many attempts you make to lump them together.

 

You do realize team play 18/19 games to get to the Super Bowl, right? They need to win those game to get there... and again, game MVPs may indicate that they player was the best on his team that day, but he did not catch his own passes, he did not block for himself, and did not kick field goals and he did not play defense.

 

I am getting sick of getting no where with this... ignorance must be bliss.

ok I am done with this as well. My last post. You freely admit that the QB has the most control of the game and the most important position especially in today's game but yet you don't want to credit him more when his team wins a ring? It is all equal all of a sudden? You are lacking consistency here.

[AntonMcG]

Sure, but someone had to get Jerry the ball. That is why Raymond Berry and Jerry Rice are two of the top receivers of all time, because two of the GOAT quarterbacks were throwing to them. Also, those guys were multiple Championship receivers. The Championships really round out the resume, and without them, most historians drop you down a bit. 

 

And someone had to catch the ball... it goes both ways whether you acknowledge it or not.

 

I am done.

[BOTT]

Not sure if that's sarcasm but I think it honestly has. I think most people, while tipping their hat to those guys, don't really believe they could survive in today's era and consider them old American sports icons more so than they consider them GOATs. Baseball is also slightly different than football.

 

I mean, when you see photographs of Babe Ruth sucking down a cigar with a giant mug of beer in his hand, it's sort of hard to imagine him tearing up the league today whether he still would or not.

Considering he hasn't played in 50 years I would say he legend is still pretty strong. Just as strong as other players of his era that won championships.

I obviously wasn't comparing their talent with today's players

[BOTT]

You don't feel Jordan, Montana and Brady were most responsible for their teams rings? They have 11 Finals/SB MVPs among them.

Montana? No

[PATS16N0]

The reason I don't care about MVP's is because, unlike rings, they're disputable. Not everyone thinks Manning was the true MVP every year he won it. The year Tom Brady won it unanimously, some people believed it should go to Michael Vik. Last year some thought it should go to Brady, others thought it should go to Peyton, and it went to Peterson.

 

They're not objective. They're opinion.

 

They're just fan fare.

 

That's it. I don't for the life of me understand why we put so much stock in winning MVP's. It's pointless.

It's like arguing over who is the most handsome, or who has the coolest name, or who has the coolest uniform.

 

I don't think Peterson should of gotten the MVP last year.

 

However, I know for a fact that Flacco got a ring, and it wasn't because people put it to a vote.

[AntonMcG]

ok I am done with this as well. My last post. You freely admit that the QB has the most control of the game and the most important position expecially in today's game but yet you don't want to credit him more when his team wins a ring? It is all equal all of a sudden? You are lacking consistency here.

 

Stop asking me questions when I am say I am done, it forces me to compromise whatever tiny amount of integrity I possess.

 

Stop twisting things... the most important player on a team of 5, is very different to the most important player on a team of 33 (offense, defense, specials teams).

[amfootball]

Stop asking me questions when I am say I am done, it forces me to compromise whatever tiny amount of integrity I possess.

 

Stop twisting things... the most important player on a team of 5, is very different to the most important player on a team of 33 (offense, defense, specials teams).

I agree. But still QB controls the most in football and his play generally determines the outcome of the game much more than any other player.

[BOTT]

Shocking that the two people making the rings argument have Tom Brady avatars.

[Shane Bond]

I certainly don't believe so, but in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter if I believe Brady is the GOAT, or if a 50 year old 49'er fan is sure Montana remains the GOAT, or if you believe Peyton is the GOAT. What matters is what these players leave behind for posterity.

Future football fans that will be born next year will one day have their own quarterbacks, and they'll look back at some highlight clips that don't mean a whole lot to them, and they'll look at championships.

They'll know Joe Montana went to four Superbowls, won four Lombardis, and maybe they'll know he won 16 play off games.

They'll know Tom Brady went to five Superbowls and won three Lombardis and won at least 17 play off games.

And they'll know Peyton Manning went to two Superbowls, won one Lombardi, and won 9 play off games.

And history will judge them accordingly. Talking about stats, pocket presence, a mind for the game, football IQ, their spiral, or any of this other stuff, dies shortly after they both retire.

It's just the way that it is.

You are hilarious.

It's all about rings, stats are for losers blah blah in pats nation.

When I talk Bradshaw with more rings, you don't think so.

LOL

[PATS16N0]

You are hilarious.

It's all about rings, stats are for losers blah blah in pats nation.

When I talk Bradshaw with more rings, you don't think so.

LOL

 

I guess you either didn't understand what I said or just intentionally chose not to because it doesn't necessarily bode well for what I suspect you want to have happen.

 

Never the less, every single word I said is 110% true.

[BOTT]

I guess you either didn't understand what I said or just intentionally chose not to because it doesn't necessarily bode well for what I suspect you want to have happen.

 

Never the less, every single word I said is 110% true.

That extra 10% comes off as arrogant....

[Shane Bond]

I guess you either didn't understand what I said or just intentionally chose not to because it doesn't necessarily bode well for what I suspect you want to have happen.

Never the less, every single word I said is 110% true.

Nice work ignoring my whole post. Not surprised with a pats fan and logic.

[LockeDown]

Whatever you want to say about Bradshaw, he "allowed" his team to win 4 Super Bowls.  He never messed it up.  I don't know how someone can say Montanna is so much better than Bradshaw, when Montanna's team was the 80's equivalent to the 70's Steelers.  Plus, Montanna had the best hands in the world EVER catching his passes.  

[PATS16N0]

Whatever you want to say about Bradshaw, he "allowed" his team to win 4 Super Bowls.  He never messed it up.  I don't know how someone can say Montanna is so much better than Bradshaw, when Montanna's team was the 80's equivalent to the 70's Steelers.  Plus, Montanna had the best hands in the world EVER catching his passes.  

 

Yeah, Bradshaw is a beast. Good post.

[Shane Bond]

Yeah, Bradshaw is a beast. Good post.

About time

[amfootball]

Whatever you want to say about Bradshaw, he "allowed" his team to win 4 Super Bowls.  He never messed it up.  I don't know how someone can say Montanna is so much better than Bradshaw, when Montanna's team was the 80's equivalent to the 70's Steelers.  Plus, Montanna had the best hands in the world EVER catching his passes.  

Montana did much more than just not "mess up." That is why he is considered better.

[LockeDown]

Montana did much more than just not "mess up." That is why he is considered better.

I am a Montanna fan. Not blasting him, but when he played for the Chiefs in the end, that showed how much he could carry a team. If he had played his whole career with the Chiefs, he would never have won a Super Bowl. That is what Marino basically had to experience. Nobody would be claiming Montanna the best if that had happened.

[amfootball]

I am a Montanna fan. Not blasting him, but when he played for the Chiefs in the end, that showed how much he could carry a team. If he had played his whole career with the Chiefs, he would never have won a Super Bowl. That is what Marino basically had to experience. Nobody would be claiming Montanna the best if that had happened.

I thought his time with the Chiefs further cemented his greatness. He went there when he was older and injured

and made the pro bowl in 1993 his first season there and led them from two come from behind victories in the post-season to reach the AFCCG. 

From his wiki page, "In their wildcard win over the Steelers, Montana threw a 7-yard fourth down touchdown pass to send the game into overtime. Then against the Houston Oilers he led the team to 28 second half points, including three touchdown passes to earn the 29th fourth quarter comeback win of his career. Including their two playoff victories that year (the Chiefs only had one prior playoff win since 1970 Super Bowl IV), the 1993 Chiefs won 13 games, tying the franchise record for wins in a season. The Chiefs have not won a playoff game since the 1993 season."

 

He took the Chiefs back to the playoffs in 1994 before retiring that off-season.

[The Old Crow]

I am a Montanna fan. Not blasting him, but when he played for the Chiefs in the end, that showed how much he could carry a team. If he had played his whole career with the Chiefs, he would never have won a Super Bowl. That is what Marino basically had to experience. Nobody would be claiming Montanna the best if that had happened.

 

 

He was pretty much at the end of his career. Not a good comparison.

[The Old Crow]

Also, can we stop the Marino talk ? Besides no ring, he was 8-10 in the post season. Sounds like another guy who is 9-11, but at least has one ring. Also, Marino had a Hall of Fame coach in Shula. No way GOAT. 

[throwing BBZ]

He has 4 rings. How this guy isn't considered on par with Montana is mind-bottling.

 

Maybe because there were 21 better starters on his own SB teams? Not that he wasn`t good of course.

Definitely Much closer to Dilfur than Montana.

Did you see the kinda passes they had to catch to win says a once Cowboy fan and speaking for the Raiders too? ;)

[throwing BBZ]

He has 4 rings. How this guy isn't considered on par with Montana is mind-bottling.

 

As much as I can recall, I was "mind-bottled" way to often in my twenties.

[LockeDown]

As much as I can recall, I was "mind-bottled" way to often in my twenties.

I once "mind bobbled" but didn't like it.

[LockeDown]

He was pretty much at the end of his career. Not a good comparison.

That's not what I am saying really. Just tell me this. Do you think if Montanna spent his entire career with the Chiefs and the Chiefs had that mediocre talent level, that he would have ever won a Super Bowl? No Way!! You know you don't believe that.

[The Old Crow]

That's not what I am saying really. Just tell me this. Do you think if Montanna spent his entire career with the Chiefs and the Chiefs had that mediocre talent level, that he would have ever won a Super Bowl? No Way!! You know you don't believe that.

 

For a top quarterback to have totally mediocre talent throughout his career is highly improbable and hypothetical. I mean, you could probably cite Archie Manning, but he is the exception, and not the rule. The best players make everyone around them better, and no one can make that happen like the quarterback. Usually when you get a Montana or a Manning moving to another team, you'll usually get better as the free agents that follow. But to answer your question , I really can't , because we just don't know what might have happened with the Chiefs. We have to go with the stats and titles we know about.

[amfootball]

For a top quarterback to have totally mediocre talent throughout his career is highly improbable and hypothetical. I mean, you could probably cite Archie Manning, but he is the exception, and not the rule. The best players make everyone around them better, and no one can make that happen like the quarterback. Usually when you get a Montana or a Manning moving to another team, you'll usually get better as the free agents that follow. But to answer your question , I really can't , because we just don't know what might have happened with the Chiefs. We have to go with the stats and titles we know about.

The Chiefs team he got traded to in 1993 was not a great team and he won 13 games with them (most in franchise history) and made it to the AFCCG where he lost to Kelly's Bills. Chiefs still have not won a playoff game since Montana was there. No doubt in my mind that they would have contented year in and year out with Montana if he was there his whole career and may have won SBs as well.

[Will]

 

Plus, rightly or wrongly, the fact that Bradshaw acts like a Forrest Gump class clown on the air a lot doesn't do him any favors either. His niche is stupidity or acting foolish, which is why I respect Howie Long so much...A smart guy & good analyst that is forced to put up with Terry's antics. I have a sense of humor sure, but sometimes I wish Terry would just zip it & chill man.

 

 

While there's some truth in that, he's also quite funny and is the straw that stirs the drink in that show, which would probably be really friggin boring with overly serious stiffs like Long there without Bradshaw enlivening the preceedings.

 

Bradshaw is deserving of a top 5 all time ranking, but only some mention him (Donovan McNabb, who is already a better analyst than most, is one).

 

Reasons he's not mentioned by the masses:

 

-Most have short memories or were too young and always think of their defense, not realizing that by 1978 Bradshaw was their single indespensible player. At that point, the defense was good but not what it had been in the mid-70s when it was the best to ever play, better than the '85 Bears. Take a look at SB 13 Steelers Cowboys on the tube, probably the two best teams to play in a SB, and watch a clinic. As good as Montana, without a doubt. Back then passing percentages were far different, as the West Coast Offense was only in embryonic stages with Walsh in Cinci. Bradshaw always threw down the field, and they weren't the shorter West Coast passes. Which means longer plays as well as higher ratios of interceptions and incompletions but also great plays. He was a high school US javelin champ, and threw cruise missles on a line down the field with more accuracy on long throws than anyone else in history.

 

-The masses hear the same names over and over again, so the frame of reference for fans and most media talking heads is always the same ol same ol QB names that may or may not be that good. Such as Elway, who was not as good and won only when a good coach changed his play calling away from his egocentric need to throw on every play. Or Favre, who like Elway for most of his career was a thrower not a nuanced, smart QB.

 

-Bradshaw called his own plays and was smart. Part of which was reflected in the fact that he ALWAYS had the humility many of the "best" QBs don't have-run the team doesn't mean having to throw on every down. He always understood that as well as anyone who has played QB.

 

-Stats are misleading-different era which is why it took Stallworth and Swann a long time to get in the HOF. Also, back then it was common for QBs to take a few years to reach their potential, and that's what happened with him, which skewed the numbers weighed down by the first few years. As mentioned, in that era the percentages on completions and pics were entirely different.

 

-Brady is the best over the last 10 years, but don't tell me he'd have been better with that team. Bottom line Brady is part of a teams that didn't get it done when it counted in the last minutes of two lost SBs.

 

-Staubach was a great QB who the talking heads and fans also largely forget. The modern passing game we have now began in 1978, Bradshaw's greatest year, and both of them would've been ridiculous today.

 

 

I'm not gonna argue any of this. I was there, watched a lot of his games live in Canada and remember them as clear as yesterday. He was as good as I've ever seen and remains humble! He knows that game very very well despite the fact that some here and elsewhere are fooled by the demeanor. Bradshaw and Jimmy Johnson are the two most aware and knowledgeable on the set as well as being friends.

[CantBeStopped]

Ive always wonderer why namath is even in the HOF. Horrible career stats.1 drunken guarantee got him in the HOF

[Le Neon]

Bradshaw - 4

Brady - 3

As per your logic, Bradshaw is better.

That's even being kind to Brady. How many Super Bowls did Bradshaw lose?

[Shane Bond]

That's even being kind to Brady. How many Super Bowls did Bradshaw lose?

Uh oh

 

SB losses - Bradshaw - ZERO, Brady - 2

 

Not even close.

[No 1 Manning Fan]

Marino. , no Championships, no way. Look at Labron James before his Championships. Do you think he would even be in a discussion with Jordan or Magic without Champuonship wins , much less multiple Championship rings.

Jordan no, Johnson yes. Even without rings, LeBron did more to effect the rest of his team than Johnson. Better scorer, just about equal as a ball handler. The number of championships have no bearing in my mind. Karl Malone and Charles Barkley are still the best power forward I have ever seen and never won a championship.

Was Joe DiMaggio truly better than Ted Williams because he had more championships? His teams certainly were, no doubt, but is that really a knock on Williams' greatness?

I am not going to dishonor someone's reputation when his Herculean efforts have gone I rewarded because his team couldn't hold up its part. These are team games. They're not boxing or MMA. Those are one on one sports and winning the title is the only way to be ranked number 1.

I honestly don't know why Terry isn't brought up more often. He seems to have been a great QB in a run and defense dominated league. But I won't say he's the greatest because he has 4 rings. I'm not sure he was better than Tarkenton who has zero. I think Montana was great, but I honestly don't know if he was better than Marino. Bart Starr had a ton of championships, and I've never heard anyone argue that he was better than Unitas. Granted Unitas had 3 titles, but not nearly as many as Starr's 5.

I think too many people get hung up on team accomplishments when talking about individual greatness.

[jvan1973]

That is fair. But this is the steroid era so categorize that however you want. But Teddy Ballgame also did not face pitchers who were juiced up as well.

Ted Williams was one of the best ball players ever. Ortiz is no where near his level.

[amfootball]

Ted Williams was one of the best ball players ever. Ortiz is no where near his level.

Ortiz is the best clutch player to maybe have ever played and has great stats to boot. No way Williams straps that average Sox team to his back and wins a championship.

[jvan1973]

Ortiz is the best clutch player to maybe have ever played and has great stats to boot. No way Williams straps that average Sox team to his back and wins a championship.

You need to educate yourself on Ted Williams

[amfootball]

You need to educate yourself on Ted Williams

I know him better than you.

[Shane Bond]

You need to educate yourself on Ted Williams

And some

[jvan1973]

I know him better than you.

i highly doubt that. Considering you think Ortiz is the most clutch player in history, i question your education of the mlb as a whole