ESPN , top 20 coaches all time , # 20 Tony Dungy

[amfootball]

he took elway three times and lost.

Come on man. Those Broncs teams were terrible save for Elway. And the NFC dominated the 80's. No AFC teams were winning then.

[southwest1]

I didn't say he could do no wrong clearly Dungy has his faults ALL coaches have them.  With that said Dungy's were far fewer than most coaches that he coached against it's reflected in his record as a Head Coach and the respect that his former players have for him.  With that said, some, and I am not saying you in this case, like to try to discredit Dungy by saying well he had Peyton Manning anyone could win with Peyton Manning.  That just completely ignores what he did in Tampa Bay without Peyton Manning and many of those same people turn around and say Jim Caldwell wasn't qualified to be the Colts Head Coach.  People can't have it both ways.  They can't sit here and say well anyone can win with Peyton Manning to take away from Dungy's success and then say Jim Caldwell should have never been the Head Coach because he wasn't qualified for the job.  Also, people need to look at the fact that Peyton Manning and the Colts had the most successful years of their run under Tony Dungy.  I don't think that's just a happy accident.  Also, when people make it out to seem like Peyton Manning was the only factor we won chew on this, with Dungy as his Head Coach Manning is 7-6 in the playoffs, not a great record but a winning one none the less.  Without Dungy as his Coach Manning is 2-5 in the playoffs going one and done four times.  Anyways, you aren't really playing the well Dungy had Manning card so that has nothing to do with you.

 

Here's the thing, you asked what's the one key lesson that Dungy taught the team and then said you didn't want a life lesson you wanted a game management lesson.  Who are we to give you that answer?  We weren't in the lockerroom to hear that answer.  Only the players and coach who were around Dungy know the answer to that.  So you are pretty much asking a question you know we can't answer.  I will say this if you watch how his teams seemed to always adjust at halftime and play better in the second half he did something.  I don't think he just sat there and did nothing.  However, if you are wanting a specific answer to that you are asking the wrong people to give you that answer.  With that said though, I am not sure how much many Head Coaches sit there and teach game management lessons to players once they are at the NFL level.  Most of that is going to be taught by position coaches but again most players know most of those skills before they get to the NFL.  That's why GMs get paid big bucks to find players who have the skills you need to fit your Head Coach's system, really at the NFL level you are more or less polishing those skills up and maybe teaching tricks to help a little here or there but again by the time most players get to the NFL level they are there because they already have the skills you want them to have.  Dungy's system was more or less make as few mistakes as we can while forcing the other team to make mistakes and taking advantage of them.  He focused on making sure you didn't commit penalties and didn't turn the ball over while focusing on getting take a ways from the other team.  That goes back to the life lessons part because what he was teaching these young kids coming into the NFL was how to be mature men so they would make fewer mistakes.  So those life lessons you didn't want people to say he taught people goes back to his coaching philosophy.  Like I said before trying to explain how Dungy coached and not including life lessons is like trying to explain how Peyton Manning took advantage of other team's defenses and not talking about all the stuff Peyton does before the snap of the ball.  It's not painting the full picture. 

 

I'll say this Dungy doesn't have a defensive system named after his system in Tampa Bay and isn't called a Defensive mastermind because the man didn't teach players things.  With that said if you want me to sit here and tell you that worked with Dwight Freeney and taught him his spin move for example none of us are the people to do that.  Frankly Freeney had that when he got here, I am sure Dungy probably pointed things out to him to make it more effective but the basic skill set Freeney already had which is why the Colts brought him here in the first place. 

 

Honestly your whole part about core fundamentals goes to what Dungy was about.  He was all about doing the little things well and better than the other guy.  It's like when everyone was calling for major changes to the defense after the Jags game in 2006 and he said no we probably need to do less in practice not more and focus back in on the fundamentals and clean those up and the defense will take care of it's self.  A few months later they were World Champions thanks in large part to that defense.  Again, Dungy's core belief is beyond simple, it's do what we do and out execute the other guy.  He believed that if you did that more times than not you would be successful and he was very successful as a coach and if you look back at the games the Colts lost under Dungy it was normally do to mistakes or not out executing the other team. 

 

Also please tell me where I said you were the anti-Christ.  I don't think I said that at all.  Also, yeah I do like Dungy because he was a great coach.  That's not putting him on a pedestal it's looking at what he did here and saying never missing the playoffs in seven years, five division titles two AFC Title games, only one year fewer than 12 wins and that year had 10 and it was his first year here and a Super Bowl Championship (which is one more than any other Indianapolis Colts coach has) and saying man he did a really good job.  Like I said before Dungy had his faults I am not saying he didn't, he was clearly slow to make changes and that was maybe his biggest one.  With that said, his faults were far fewer than the good things about him and far fewer than anyone else who has been the Colts Head Coach in Indianapolis to this point. 

 

Other than win more playoff games what would you have liked him to do better? Also before people get too harsh on Dungy for his record his seven playoff wins as Colts coach is three more than the franchise has total since they moved to Indianapolis without him.  So while he could have won more playoff games when compared to other coaches of the Colts he's the leader in the club house.  If people can come up with a logical argument for why Dungy was overrated as a Head Coach I'll listen but most of the arguments seem to go back to "well he had Peyton Manning" and I explained that one before or like you are doing here asking a question that no one here on the forum can answer because we weren't there to get the answer. 

 

Like I said before, I don't get why people chop Dungy down so much, and again clearly you aren't the only one or frankly the biggest one to take a shot at him.  I just don't get it.  I wouldn't get it if people tried to do the samething to Peyton Manning either.  I don't get it when people do it to Marvin or Wayne in the past either.  The only one I get is Bill Polian and then it frankly goes back to people just don't like Polian which I don't think is the best argument in the world but at least then I can understand why people try to under cut him.  I guess I think if you look at what Dungy did other than maybe win a couple more playoff games it's hard to honestly look back what he did as a Head Coach and ask for more.  I can understand saying they wished he won more playoff games but honestly the Colts lack of winning in the playoffs seems to go beyond Dungy and frankly they won more in the playoffs under him than they did any other coach they have had in Indianapolis. 

 

All this is without even factoring what he did in Tampa Bay which IMO was a more impressive stop than he had here.  There he built a franchise from the ground up and he did it with a franchise that maybe the worst franchise in the history of sports when he got there.  When you add that to what he did in Indianapolis it's extremely hard to come up with a case for why he wasn't a good coach at least IMO. 

I appreciate your well thought out response GG8818. Clearly, you state your position well. I really enjoying our extended little debate on this topic actually. Okay, let's begin shall we...No human being or coach is  infallible. I never said that Tony Dungy was or that he was incapable of making mistakes. Heck, I make mistakes all the time. The pursuit of perfect is not the issue here determining Dungy's coaching tree principles is. I not concerned about stats, division titles, AFC Championship trophies or even SB trophies. I want to know what Dungy's coaching principles are. How Peyton performed under the guidance of Jim Mora, Tony Dungy, or Jim Caldwell is irrelevant to me. That not my question. 

 

Go back to post #22. Those rules/philosophies primarily deal with leadership lessons. They are no specific coaching lessons pertaining to technique on the field designed to help a player win a football game. I completely disagree with 100% that only the players in the team facility can shed light on this issue. That is ridiculous. Yes, players must execute the plays on the field, but the are being instructed by coaches & coordinators every single day. You mean to tell me with a straight face that these same coaches & coordinators can't tell me basic parameters  of what they teach & how well their players pick it up & digest it? Sorry, I'm not buying it. No needs to divulge trade secrets here just give me broad brush strokes & the cliff notes version. 

 

Your Dwight Freeney example is a good one actually. What advice or techniques did Tony offer/give Freeney as a way to hone his game or famous tornado spin move? Did Tony help Dwight in his DE position get off the ball quicker or use torque to his advantage? 

 

No, you never called me the antichrist. I used that word to characterize how I perceived you felt about any person who questioned the greatness of Tony Dungy as a HC in the NFL.

 

"Dungy is the second best coach of his Generation.  Yes he got Peyton Manning in Indianapolis but you know what Peyton had zero post season success at all till Dungy got here and he also took a joke of a franchise in Tampa Bay and built them into a legit team for really the only time in their franchise history.  Make no mistake Tony Dungy was a DARN good coach. 

 

Those were exact words on post # 13. I don't think he was the 2nd best coach of his generation. That is praise of the highest order there. Yes, you are certainly entitled to your opinion naturally. But, a statement like that indicates to me anyway that you place Dungy on a pedestal. I, however don't. He was a good coach with a sharp defensive mind, but not a great coach. Largely because he seemed to delegate a lot of responsibility to other coordinators & people vs being hands on. I guess there is something to say for giving your coordinators the freedom to teach players & Tony deserves some credit for that of course, but again game teaching & life lesson teaching are not the same thing.

 

You seem to have some difficulty separating the two ideas/principles IMHO. Tony Dungy is a great father, husband, community leader & player mentor, but that is a whole different area of discussion not relevant to the topic what are Tony Dungy's coaching tree principles? And how exactly am I taking personal shots at Dungy for asking what are his core coaching principles? I just don't follow your line of reason there at all GC8818. 

 

I'm not trying to annoy any Dungy fan on here. I'm just trying to ascertain why so many people are opposed to asking what his coaching principles are & why asking that very question is being viewed as a personal attack against Tony Dungy's character? 

[oldunclemark]

Come on man. Those Broncs teams were terrible save for Elway. And the NFC dominated the 80's. No AFC teams were winning then.

Denver was very good then...

 

Terrible (except for Elway) is just a misunderstanding of the situation

 

Karl Mecklenberg was all-pro

 

Mike Haynes (2 time all-NFL) was the corenr, Dennis Smith was in the secodnary..There were 3 No.1 picks on defense

 

folks forget 34-year-old Tony Dorsett (Hall of Famer) was the starting tailback.

 

Its silly to say Denver had nothing but Elway when they lost the Super Bowl in 1988. Not true

[amfootball]

Denver was very good then...

 

Terrible (except for Elway) is just a misunderstanding of the situation

 

Karl Mecklenberg was all-pro

 

Mike Haynes (2 time all-NFL) was the corenr, Dennis Smith was in the secodnary..There were 3 No.1 picks on defense

 

folks forget 34-year-old Tony Dorsett (Hall of Famer) was the starting tailback.

 

Its silly to say Denver had nothing but Elway when they lost the Super Bowl in 1988. Not true

Yes, you are right. Terrible was too harsh a word. But notice that almost all of the players you named were defensive stars. My comment was more based on the offense. Reeves/Elway IMO took average to below average talent on the offensive side to the bowl. Not one HoF at the offensive skill position. And this is the biggest reason why he lost all those bowls to the superior NFC teams - giants, skins, niners. This was more of a factor of Denver's small market budget vs. the much bigger market teams. Pretty much akin to the Oakland As playing the Yankees. That was my main point. No AFC teams save for the Raiders were winning SBs from 1980-1996. It is one of the main reasons the salary cap came in the 90's and FA. So I give Reeves a pass for not winning those bowls as he coached a Denver team to three bowls in four years. A rare feat that puts him ahead of Dungy IMO.

[jvan1973]

Yes, you are right. Terrible was too harsh a word. But notice that almost all of the players you named were defensive stars. My comment was more based on the offense. Reeves/Elway IMO took average to below average talent on the offensive side to the bowl. Not one HoF at the offensive skill position. And this is the biggest reason why he lost all those bowls to the superior NFC teams - giants, skins, niners. This was more of a factor of Denver's small market budget vs. the much bigger market teams. Pretty much akin to the Oakland As playing the Yankees. That was my main point. No AFC teams save for the Raiders were winning SBs from 1980-1996. It is one of the main reasons the salary cap came in the 90's and FA. So I give Reeves a pass for not winning those bowls as he coached a Denver team to three bowls in four years. A rare feat that puts him ahead of Dungy IMO.

ok, then explain your Bud Grant selection

[amfootball]

ok, then explain your Bud Grant selection

Good grief, you're joking right??? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bud_Grant

[bayone]

Good grief, you're joking right??? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bud_Grant

 

 

read my comment # 55,, one of ESPN voters gives his top 20 he voted for and exaplians each one, also explains why je didnt vote for Dungy, he also says all the voters at ESPN voted quite differently from eachother so no real great consensus I gues

 

also has explanation for each of his piiscks , 

 

From article i gave link to in comment 55 he picked

 

11. Bud Grant -- The Norse God. He looked like the guy Hollywood hires to play a football coach. Always wore the expression of an Easter Island statue, even as Gary Cuozzo or Joe Kapp was fumbling away another Super Bowl. Maybe if he could've relaxed the rules a little on his players, like Chuck Noll, he would've won one of those four Super Bowls. Wasn't going to happen.

 

not as good an explanation as your wiki link

[jvan1973]

Good grief, you're joking right??? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bud_Grant

lower winning percentage than dungy, and no ring

[CanuckColt]

I might be in the minority here, but I always thought Dungy was overrated as a coach.  He's an incredible man, but he wasn't able to take that very talented team in Tampa to the Super Bowl when Gruden did it in year 1.  And he underachieved with all the talent we had here in Indy during his reign.  I feel like he is far too conservative and I don't like the "bend but don't break" approach of the Tampa 2.

Sad to say, but I must agree with you.

[amfootball]

lower winning percentage than dungy, and no ring

Third most wins all time only behind Shula and Halas and he has FOUR SB appearances with two different QBs.

[amfootball]

read my comment # 55,, one of ESPN voters gives his top 20 he voted for and exaplians each one, also explains why je didnt vote for Dungy, he also says all the voters at ESPN voted quite differently from eachother so no real great consensus I gues

 

also has explanation for each of his piiscks , 

 

From article i gave link to in comment 55 he picked

 

11. Bud Grant -- The Norse God. He looked like the guy Hollywood hires to play a football coach. Always wore the expression of an Easter Island statue, even as Gary Cuozzo or Joe Kapp was fumbling away another Super Bowl. Maybe if he could've relaxed the rules a little on his players, like Chuck Noll, he would've won one of those four Super Bowls. Wasn't going to happen.

 

not as good an explanation as your wiki link

Thanks Bayone for posting this but what a lousy description.    Having him at 11 is probably about right. He should have had a much better write up that focused on his unparalleled success in Minnesota and in Winnipeg.

[BOTT]

Denver was very good then...

 

Terrible (except for Elway) is just a misunderstanding of the situation

 

Karl Mecklenberg was all-pro

 

Mike Haynes (2 time all-NFL) was the corenr, Dennis Smith was in the secodnary..There were 3 No.1 picks on defense

 

folks forget 34-year-old Tony Dorsett (Hall of Famer) was the starting tailback.

 

Its silly to say Denver had nothing but Elway when they lost the Super Bowl in 1988. Not true

Those Denver teams were not that good

Mike Haynes? The only mike Haynes I know played for the patriots and raiders

A 34 yr old tony dorsett? Not exactly scary stuff

[bayone]

Thanks Bayone for posting this but what a lousy description.    Having him at 11 is probably about right. He should have had a much better write up that focused on his unparalleled success in Minnesota and in Winnipeg.

 

 

agreed

 

The guys reasoning's are somewhat off in his description, sometimes long and at others 1 line like

 

18. Tom Coughlin -- REASON  he won 2 Super bowls with the Wrong Manning

 

but I loved his comment on why he didnt include Dungy

 

Lastly, I didn't vote for Tony Dungy. 

People act as if he won two Super Bowls: the one with Indy and the one Tampa Bay won the year after he was fired. Kim Kardashian just got pregnant with Kanye West. Does Kris Humphries get credit for that? 

And yes, he won a Super Bowl with PEYTON MANNING , but your muffler guy could win one with Manning in those years.

 

Wonderful man, though.

[amfootball]

agreed

 

The guys reasoning's are somewhat off in his description, sometimes long and at others 1 line like

 

18. Tom Coughlin -- REASON  he won 2 Super bowls with the Wrong Manning

 

but I loved his comment on why he didnt include Dungy

 

Lastly, I didn't vote for Tony Dungy. 

People act as if he won two Super Bowls: the one with Indy and the one Tampa Bay won the year after he was fired. Kim Kardashian just got pregnant with Kanye West. Does Kris Humphries get credit for that? 

And yes, he won a Super Bowl with PEYTON MANNING , but your muffler guy could win one with Manning in those years.

 

Wonderful man, though.

The Coughlin write-up is hiliarious. So true though.

[amfootball]

So far, ESPN has all the coaches that I had on my list with the exception of Dungy....I think they may put Cowher on too who I would also put ahead of Dungy....

 

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/feature/index?page=greatestcoaches

[jvan1973]

So far, ESPN has all the coaches that I had on my list with the exception of Dungy....I think they may put Cowher on too who I would also put ahead of Dungy....

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/feature/index?page=greatestcoaches

pretty safe to say dan Reeves isn't making it

[amfootball]

pretty safe to say dan Reeves isn't making it

Yes, probably my one mulligan. Although I stand by it as if Bud Grant is there at 15 with four SB losses, I think Reeves should be there too. And Reeves did it with two different teams in two different conferences with two different QBs. He should be there just for getting Chris Chandler to the bowl... ;)

 

Still, even with Reeves out, there are other coaches I would still put there ahead of Dungy. I think Cowher will be on ESPNs list and I debated about having him on mine instead of Reeves.

[jvan1973]

Yes, probably my one mulligan. Although I stand by it as if Bud Grant is there at 15 with four SB losses, I think Reeves should be there too. And Reeves did it with two different teams in two different conferences with two different QBs. He should be there just for getting Chris Chandler to the bowl... ;)

Still, even with Reeves out, there are other coaches I would still put there ahead of Dungy. I think Cowher will be on ESPNs list and I debated about having him on mine instead of Reeves.

luckily those in the know disagree with you

[amfootball]

luckily those in the know disagree with you

I am the one in the know.

[Rich Cannon]

I might be in the minority here, but I always thought Dungy was overrated as a coach.  He's an incredible man, but he wasn't able to take that very talented team in Tampa to the Super Bowl when Gruden did it in year 1.  And he underachieved with all the talent we had here in Indy during his reign.  I feel like he is far too conservative and I don't like the "bend but don't break" approach of the Tampa 2.

 

Agreed, I think he deserves credit for pioneering the Tampa 2 D and getting a Championship but I didnt like his coaching style.  Not to mention the Tampa 2, glad the days of anything tampa are over