As a owner would you hire Polian as gm based on the Indy era?

[gbrads_rants]

No.

He hasn't done anything since roughly 06.

I get so tired of hearing how he "found" Garçon and Collie and McAfee as a testament to how he still picked good players. Every team in the NFL has solid contributors to there team that were drafted in later rounds. Every. Single. One. So how does that make him better than anyone else?

Garcon is going to be a bust in Washington....

[Gavin]

1) At no point did Manning's cap hit ever equal 1/3 of the cap (13.3% in 2011, less than 1/6 of the cap, less than half of what you say it was);

2) You're pretending that Manning is the only player in the NFL taking up that amount of cap space.

We can debate the merits of that structure all day long, but Manning was worth every penny he was paid. Polian and his coaching staff could have done a better job of building a team that could support Manning and the offense better, but when you have the best quarterback in the league, it's going to cost you cap space. You smile and say thank you, and go about managing the rest of the cap as best you can.

And Polian did a fine job of managing the cap. The question isn't whether we had money to spend outside of Manning, it's whether we spent it wisely or not. And with contracts to Kelvin Hayden and franchising Edgerrin James, keeping Lilja over Scott, etc., it's easy to pick at how we spent money during the Polian/Manning era. But it's simply inane to blame any of that on Manning's cap charge.

I agree he was worth every penny but 28 million for 1 year would have been ridiculous and the fact that it was even offered was ridiculous especially knowing Peyton was injured, I know Manning wouldn't have been the only one taking up that kind of space but that dont make it a good decision in my opinion. if anyone was worth so much money it was Peyton, we also spent way to much on average to below average players with the obvious exceptions of Freeney and Mathis

[Superman]

I agree he was worth every penny but 28 million for 1 year would have been ridiculous and the fact that it was even offered was ridiculous especially knowing Peyton was injured, I know Manning wouldn't have been the only one taking up that kind of space but that dont make it a good decision in my opinion. if anyone was worth so much money it was Peyton, we also spent way to much on average to below average players with the obvious exceptions of Freeney and Mathis

We're talking about how Polian managed the cap, and you bring up Manning's contract status. That's all I'm refuting, that along with the statement that his contract amounted to 1/3 of the cap, which is 100% false.

For instance, Manning made $26 million last season, yet his contract only hit the cap for $16 million. Isn't that evidence of Polian knowing how to work the cap very well? We can discuss the merits of the contract at the time it was given all we want, and I think we'll still come to the conclusion that we did the right thing given the information we had at the time. Even if we don't, handing out $26 million and shielding $10 million of it from the cap is worthy of acknowledgement.

Like I said, if we want to talk about giving contracts to players we shouldn't have, we can do that. But Manning's name won't be brought up.

[ColtsPacersfan]

No! He is past his prime!

[Gavin]

We're talking about how Polian managed the cap, and you bring up Manning's contract status. That's all I'm refuting, that along with the statement that his contract amounted to 1/3 of the cap, which is 100% false.

For instance, Manning made $26 million last season, yet his contract only hit the cap for $16 million. Isn't that evidence of Polian knowing how to work the cap very well? We can discuss the merits of the contract at the time it was given all we want, and I think we'll still come to the conclusion that we did the right thing given the information we had at the time. Even if we don't, handing out $26 million and shielding $10 million of it from the cap is worthy of acknowledgement.

Like I said, if we want to talk about giving contracts to players we shouldn't have, we can do that. But Manning's name won't be brought up.

All I am saying is for a guy that had 2 surgeries within 20 days apart right before he was offered the 90 million contract (2 months) is questionable decision making,

[southwest1]

1) At no point did Manning's cap hit ever equal 1/3 of the cap (13.3% in 2011, less than 1/6 of the cap, less than half of what you say it was);

2) You're pretending that Manning is the only player in the NFL taking up that amount of cap space.

We can debate the merits of that structure all day long, but Manning was worth every penny he was paid. Polian and his coaching staff could have done a better job of building a team that could support Manning and the offense better, but when you have the best quarterback in the league, it's going to cost you cap space. You smile and say thank you, and go about managing the rest of the cap as best you can.

And Polian did a fine job of managing the cap. The question isn't whether we had money to spend outside of Manning, it's whether we spent it wisely or not. And with contracts to Kelvin Hayden and franchising Edgerrin James, keeping Lilja over Scott, etc., it's easy to pick at how we spent money during the Polian/Manning era. But it's simply inane to blame any of that on Manning's cap charge.

Superman,

I agree that Peyton Manning was worth what he was paid in gold & to fair to Bill Polian everyone knows where a large chuck of money went to on both sides of the ball. The dollar can only be stretched so far & once the money is gone; it's gone. But to say that Polian did a fine job managing the cap is laughable when you consider that multiple player contracts expired at the same exact time under his watch. No superb NFL GM allows that to transpire, even if he was named 6 time NFL Executive of the Year IMO. No disrespect intended. Just my anyway.

[Superman]

All I am saying is for a guy that had 2 surgeries within 20 days apart right before he was offered the 90 million contract (2 months) is questionable decision making,

So do you let him walk? Do you keep him on the franchise tag?

It's easy to say "we should have done this or that" after seeing how the season and Manning's injury played out. But no one was suggesting that we don't keep him on a long-term contract this time last season. We knew he wasn't ready to play, and chances were slim that he would be able to go by the opener, and then he had another operation right before the opener. All that, and there's still no argument that anyone can present that suggests that we shouldn't have resigned Manning.

And, since we're talking about Polian's ability to manage the cap, it should be noted that Manning's contract had less of a cap hit in 2011 than the franchise tag would have.

[Superman]

Superman,

I agree that Peyton Manning was worth what he was paid in gold & to fair to Bill Polian everyone knows where a large chuck of money went to on both sides of the ball. The dollar can only be stretched so far & once the money is gone; it's gone. But to say that Polian did a fine job managing the cap is laughable when you consider that multiple player contracts expired at the same exact time under his watch. No superb NFL GM allows that to transpire, even if he was named 6 time NFL Executive of the Year IMO. No disrespect intended. Just my anyway.

What contracts are you talking about, exactly? And on what are you basing your idea that no GM allows multiple contracts to expire at the same time?

[southwest1]

What contracts are you talking about, exactly? And on what are you basing your idea that no GM allows multiple contracts to expire at the same time?

[Superman]

Of course, it's almost impossible to stop a few contracts from not expiring at the time. I never said any GM can prevent it as a hard & fast rule. It boils down to signing bonuses, how many contracts are front & back loaded payment wise, restructured deals, & paying guys that are either injury prone, can't grasp the playbook, or see diminished playing time as a result of nagging/repeating injuries.

You made a very specific statement, and I thought you were talking about a very specific set of circumstances. I don't know what you mean when you say that having a lot of expiring contracts in one offseason is evidence that he doesn't know how to manage the cap.

I don't ever remember the Colts being hit with a barrage of notable free agents in one offseason. And even if that did happen, I don't think that's necessarily an indication that he didn't do a good job with the cap. The questions at that point become "did we have the cap space necessary to retain the players we wanted to," and "if we didn't have a lot of cap space, were we able to manipulate our situation to retain our players."

I've never heard this being used as a metric by which you grade a GM. Contracts expire. The question is what do you do when that happens.

Knowing when to cut a player when their production slips drastically is crucial i.e. Bob Sanders & Gary Brackett for starters. It took Polian forever to release the "dead weight." Yes, cutting them at the wrong time can count heavily against a team's draft space & I realize of course I wasn't the Colts Chief Financial Officer or in GM meetings either. NE is masterful at cutting players slightly passed their prime & getting lower round draft picks from other NFL franchises. We are abysmal at this organizational strategy personally.

I disagree wholeheartedly. We cut both Sanders and Brackett before their cap figures got out of hand. Sanders cap hit in 2010 was $2.3 million, nothing to get worked up over for a player who can change the game when healthy. The fact that it was going up to $5 million in 2011 made it necessary to stop putting any hope in him, because it was prohibitively expensive, and that's when we cut him. Brackett's cap hit in 2011 was $2 million. Again, not prohibitively expensive. We cut him mostly because that cap hit was going up to $5 million in 2012. Both of them were cut at the right time.

I respect Bill Polian for getting our squad a Championship Ring & for his crucial role in building Playoff contenders in Carolina & 4 SB appearances in Buffalo. But, Polian as a front office guru let a lot to be desired. The man knows football no question. Massaging cap space ABSOLUTELY NOT IMO.

Polian was one of the chief architects of the cap. I'm curious as to what specific cap mismanagement you can point to.

[FireJimCaldwell]

So do you let him walk? Do you keep him on the franchise tag?

It's easy to say "we should have done this or that" after seeing how the season and Manning's injury played out. But no one was suggesting that we don't keep him on a long-term contract this time last season. We knew he wasn't ready to play, and chances were slim that he would be able to go by the opener, and then he had another operation right before the opener. All that, and there's still no argument that anyone can present that suggests that we shouldn't have resigned Manning.

And, since we're talking about Polian's ability to manage the cap, it should be noted that Manning's contract had less of a cap hit in 2011 than the franchise tag would have.

In hindsight, many different approaches could be listed.

To get him off of the franchise tag there are only two tools that could do it. Contract extension, and or resending the franchise tag thus making him a free agent. As things played out the 2nd option would have been the best for the team/franchise.

It would be easy to put together a more favorable contract. 5 million in year 1, with a staggered roster bonus based on when he participates in a game. That would have kept him in the building, and if he were to come back to play in week 6(as rumored), then he would have a larger bonus than if he would have come back in week 10 for example.

What's done is done, Irsay has attempted to make an educated guess and there is gambling involved with these types of decisions.

In hindsight it is always easier to fourth a better shoulda, woulda, or coulda scenario. Polian, Irsay & Manning weren't afforded that.

If Manning remains under the franchise tag, then Addai, Viniteri and others aren't resigned.

Time will dictate how these decisions are remembered.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I agree he was worth every penny but 28 million for 1 year would have been ridiculous and the fact that it was even offered was ridiculous especially knowing Peyton was injured, I know Manning wouldn't have been the only one taking up that kind of space but that dont make it a good decision in my opinion. if anyone was worth so much money it was Peyton, we also spent way to much on average to below average players with the obvious exceptions of Freeney and Mathis

There is a difference in cap & cash. The 28 million was never for one year. It was to extend the contract 4 more years.

[Superman]

In hindsight, many different approaches could be listed.

To get him off of the franchise tag there are only two tools that could do it. Contract extension, and or resending the franchise tag thus making him a free agent. As things played out the 2nd option would have been the best for the team/franchise.

It would be easy to put together a more favorable contract. 5 million in year 1, with a staggered roster bonus based on when he participates in a game. That would have kept him in the building, and if he were to come back to play in week 6(as rumored), then he would have a larger bonus than if he would have come back in week 10 for example.

What's done is done, Irsay has attempted to make an educated guess and there is gambling involved with these types of decisions.

In hindsight it is always easier to fourth a better shoulda, woulda, or coulda scenario. Polian, Irsay & Manning weren't afforded that.

If Manning remains under the franchise tag, then Addai, Viniteri and others aren't resigned.

Time will dictate how these decisions are remembered.

You're talking about the contract specifics, but there's no doubt that Manning was going to have a big cap charge last season. One way or the other, long-term or tag. And no one can seriously suggest that we should have let him walk.

[FireJimCaldwell]

You're talking about the contract specifics, but there's no doubt that Manning was going to have a big cap charge last season. One way or the other, long-term or tag. And no one can seriously suggest that we should have let him walk.

There could have been ways around that.

[John Dee]

No.

He hasn't done anything since roughly 06.

I get so tired of hearing how he "found" Garçon and Collie and McAfee as a testament to how he still picked good players. Every team in the NFL has solid contributors to there team that were drafted in later rounds. Every. Single. One. So how does that make him better than anyone else?

We must all factor into account the fact that Manning and Freeney took up at least 30% of the teams cap space the last few years. He HAD to find the likes of Garcon, and Collie. FA was not an option.

Bill did a great job. Any GM who gets teams to 5 or 6 Super Bowls don't do it with mirrors.

But a Peyton Manning helps.... heeh.. But seriously... the Colts through 06 were solid complete football teams,

Injury and bad drafting finally caught up with them. It happens to every team.

[Gavin]

I wouldnt say they were complete football teams, we had Edge and then Addai was good early on, we had Freeney and Mathis a healthy Bob Sanders for two years, we still had decent defensive tackles or good Corners, Since Bill took over we had 109 draft picks 20 of those made some sort significant impact at one point or another with his last draft class really to be determined, but there was a year or two he completely whiffed in the entire draft-2007, 2005 and more often then not, when a player on defense did produce big he either traded them or let them go, Mike Peterson, David Thornton, Marcus Washington, Clint Session,

[Gavin]

My above post is supposed to read "we still didn't have decent defensive tackles or good Corners

[BrentMc11]

BTW, a poster on another site came up with a fitting term for the rebuilding process: we're not rebuilding, we're depolianizing. We're going through depolianization.

At one point with Chris and Dennis too, I called it cross-Polianation. Nepotism in its utmost form.

I know Bill is a legend, but to bring him in...means bringing Chris. Chris alienated every area of personnel on West 56th Street. From driving away master scouts Don Anile and Clyde Powers....to Tom Moore and Howard Mudd. Just say NO to the Napolianic Complex.

In a related note, we still have ex race car driver AJ Foyt IV in the scouting department. All of the regular posters on this site have more credentials that that.....see I give equal opportunity compliments!

[Superman]

There could have been ways around that.

Like what?

[Superman]

At one point with Chris and Dennis too, I called it cross-Polianation. Nepotism in its utmost form.

I know Bill is a legend, but to bring him in...means bringing Chris. Chris alienated every area of personnel on West 56th Street. From driving away master scouts Don Anile and Clyde Powers....to Tom Moore and Howard Mudd. Just say NO to the Napolianic Complex.

In a related note, we still have ex race car driver AJ Foyt IV in the scouting department. All of the regular posters on this site have more credentials that that.....see I give equal opportunity compliments!

I'll have to hear the "Chris Polian drove everyone out" story from someone who didn't hate the Polians' guts. For now, it's mostly hearsay.

Also, Chris Polian has a job with the Falcons. It's not necessarily a package combo at this point.

[BrentMc11]

I'll have to hear the "Chris Polian drove everyone out" story from someone who didn't hate the Polians' guts. For now, it's mostly hearsay.

Also, Chris Polian has a job with the Falcons. It's not necessarily a package combo at this point.

Maybe some of it IS hearsay, but there is a reason Chris is only in a scouting position. There is also a reason Bill was not taken by the likes of the Bears and the Rams.

I have respected Bill's Hall of Fame career, and enjoy his commentary now. It is ironic he is a member of what he affectionately called the "liars and rats." (media) No respect whatsoever for Chris.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Like what?

A smaller signing bonus, coupled with other instruments.

Playing time bonuses, so that when and if he returned in 2011, he was paid like was intended. If he plays in week 1, he earns a 16 million roster bonus, game 2, 15 million, game 3, 14 million, etc. Have it stipulated that such bonus, would then kick in a option bonus similar to the one in place.

They would have to give him some form of signing bonus and a base salary, but those totals would have been lower based on the previous example.

He wouldn't have took home 26.4 million unless he was on the field, and the dead cap space wouldn't be extreme.

A contract can be very creative, or far more creative than what his was.

Of course, both sides have to agree to it, but if Manning is putting in the option bonus to protect the Colts, then he's obviously trying to help. Irsay and Polian should have demanded a lesser payment for year 1, that grows to the full amount as he fulfills the contract.

[bahhummbug]

I think he knows how to build a team. I'm assuming the team in question has been floundering for a little while, let's say the Jaguars or the Browns or something. He'll lock down a lot of outside influence, get rid of a lot of dead weight, and he'll hire a scouting staff that will scour the country looking for collegiate talent. And no matter how you feel about his drafting over the past few seasons, he always had an eye for talent. I'd make him bring in a consultant or two who have no loyalties to him as a counter-balance, someone who would challenge him. And I would give a directive to explore every single avenue of adding talent, not just focusing on the draft.

The reason for the five year limit is because that's more than enough time for him to leave his stamp on the team and the staff, root out some problems, and get the train back on the tracks. But I wouldn't want to be in the position that Irsay found himself in here recently, where it was unclear who the top dog in the building was. Polian has been a polarizing, if not divisive factor, everywhere he's been. He's damaged media relations with the Buffalo media, the Carolina media, and the Indy media. And he showed signs of nepotism here. By limiting his term, it would allow him to work with autonomy, without regard for the politics, but it would impress upon his staff and the rest of the football world that the job will be available in short order, so get yourself ready.

I think you and others may disagree about his potential virtues, and that's fine. We can hash it out, sure, but I think maybe we've already done this a half dozen or so times in the last few months. I think highly of his ability as a talent evaluator and team builder, and I think he could help an unfocused team get back on the right track. But too much of him isn't good.

I am going to have to agree that he can build a team,problem is he cannot maintain it thru the draft and is 1 sided offense offense offense.But as for 5 years I agree he can build but his drafting by 5 years would kill the team he built.Must add for some reason personal or whatever his contract signings of his favorite players not the greatest kills a team by 5 years.By signing his overrated high priced nobodies to big contracts Hayden?I can go on and on.

[Superman]

A smaller signing bonus, coupled with other instruments.

Playing time bonuses, so that when and if he returned in 2011, he was paid like was intended. If he plays in week 1, he earns a 16 million roster bonus, game 2, 15 million, game 3, 14 million, etc. Have it stipulated that such bonus, would then kick in a option bonus similar to the one in place.

They would have to give him some form of signing bonus and a base salary, but those totals would have been lower based on the previous example.

He wouldn't have took home 26.4 million unless he was on the field, and the dead cap space wouldn't be extreme.

A contract can be very creative, or far more creative than what his was.

Of course, both sides have to agree to it, but if Manning is putting in the option bonus to protect the Colts, then he's obviously trying to help. Irsay and Polian should have demanded a lesser payment for year 1, that grows to the full amount as he fulfills the contract.

Games played would have been a LBTE incentive in Manning's case last season, and would have counted fully against the cap. Right? Still not providing any cap relief more than what we did, not for last season.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Games played would have been a LBTE incentive in Manning's case last season, and would have counted fully against the cap. Right? Still not providing any cap relief more than what we did, not for last season.

One might be able to argue it as an incentive, but I would treat it as a roster bonus based on when he plays. If he doesn't play, it's not earned.

If it were x per game played, then it would clearly be an incentive.

I've never seen a roster bonus treated as an incentive whether LTBE or NLTBE.

[JCPatriot]

...and more often then not, when a player on defense did produce big he either traded them or let them go, Mike Peterson, David Thornton, Marcus Washington, Clint Session,

Wait a minute. Earlier this month you pointed to Mike Peterson and Clint Session as examples of bad draft picks. Now you are pointing to Mike Peterson and Clint Session as examples of players that produced big on defense that Polian failed to keep. Which is it?

[Gavin]

Wait a minute. Earlier this month you pointed to Mike Peterson and Clint Session as examples of bad draft picks. Now you are pointing to Mike Peterson and Clint Session as examples of players that produced big on defense that Polian failed to keep. Which is it?

They had some good years in the nfl, and I remember the post I just dont remember them two being mentioned as bad draft picks because clearly they werent, but my point still stands he let good talent go, a few times right after they had a break out year, also my point still stands far and away those 109 Polian picks didnt work out

[FireJimCaldwell]

They had some good years in the nfl, and I remember the post I just dont remember them two being mentioned as bad draft picks because clearly they werent, but my point still stands he let good talent go, a few times right after they had a break out year, also my point still stands far and away those 109 Polian picks didnt work out

[Gramz]

18

[Gavin]

12

[JCPatriot]

...but taking out account the position those 102 players were drafted most have under produced such as:

Clint Session-showed two promisng years and nothing since

Mike Peterson-had 1 great season for us-2nd round pick

[FireJimCaldwell]

18,12, 19 & counting...

[Gavin]

Courtesy of the random number generator in MATLAB (normalized to 32)...19

[JCPatriot]

18,12,19

Interesting "random" numbers for a Colts forum.

[Gavin]

18,12, 19 & counting...

[FireJimCaldwell]

What are you talking about?

[Gavin]

18,12,19

Interesting "random" numbers for a Colts forum.

[Gavin]

I asked for the next 5 posters to post a random #.

We have 18, 12, 19 & looking for 2 more.

[FireJimCaldwell]

18,12,19

Interesting "random" numbers for a Colts forum.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I know that, But what is the purpose?