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2023 Reese’s Senior Bowl Tracker (Measurements, 1-on-1’s,etc…)


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13 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

 

Day 2 for Mitchell. And mind you, he’s supposed to be a zone/off man corner. Some have said he’s the best player at the senior bowl.

He looks amazing. There are a few CBs that seem like great fits for Ballard's mold of DBs he wants...  the question is - would he draft one in the 1st? What's Mitchell's length? Does he cover the 32" requirement? 

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17 minutes ago, stitches said:

He looks amazing. There are a few CBs that seem like great fits for Ballard's mold of DBs he wants...  the question is - would he draft one in the 1st? What's Mitchell's length? Does he cover the 32" requirement? 

 

He goes before No.15, the way he is playing.

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I was just checking who the CBs with arms over 32" are at the Senior Bowl. Here's the list:

 

Cam Hart, CB, Notre Dame - 32 5/8 "

Khyree Jackson, CB, Oregon - 32 "

Max Melton, CB, Rutgers - 32" 

 

Not that many really long ones... 

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6 minutes ago, stitches said:

I was just checking who the CBs with arms over 32" are at the Senior Bowl. Here's the list:

 

Cam Hart, CB, Notre Dame - 32 5/8 "

Khyree Jackson, CB, Oregon - 32 "

Max Melton, CB, Rutgers - 32" 

 

Not that many really long ones... 

 

I think we go with Free Safety before we go CB. We got Brents, Jaylon Jones, will bring back Moore, so we probably draft for depth and not for a starter, IMO.

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17 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

I think we go with Free Safety before we go CB. We got Brents, Jaylon Jones, will bring back Moore, so we probably draft for depth and not for a starter, IMO.

I don't think you can stop there. In today's league you need 4-5 reliable CBs and especially with Brents and Jaylon Jones, we still don't really know what they will be. They might become starters or they might flame out. We cannot afford to just assume they will be good. This has been one of Ballard's biggest mistakes in the past. 

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53 minutes ago, stitches said:

He looks amazing. There are a few CBs that seem like great fits for Ballard's mold of DBs he wants...  the question is - would he draft one in the 1st? What's Mitchell's length? Does he cover the 32" requirement? 

31 but Ballard has moved past that I believe. Jaylon Jones only has 30 3/4” arms.

 

But Mitchell is 6 ft and 195 lbs.

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23 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

I think we go with Free Safety before we go CB. We got Brents, Jaylon Jones, will bring back Moore, so we probably draft for depth and not for a starter, IMO.

I don’t think all the secondary issues can be resolved by playing more young players. Youth was the issue in the first place. While I think you can definitely draft a box safety to develop (assuming Blackmon leaves), I think you either work it with Cross at FS full time or bring in a vet.

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26 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

31 but Ballard has moved past that I believe. Jaylon Jones only has 30 3/4” arms.

 

But Mitchell is 6 ft and 195 lbs.

Jaylon Jones sounds more like an outlier to me(Ballard keeps giving the credit to one of his scouts for making him take him...sounds like almost against his will), and he was drafted really late. Is he going to spend a no. 15 pick for a CB that doesn't fit ideally his standards? 

 

BTW Johnny Wilson looks interesting... He gets open much more than one would expect for a player this big. Could he be a TE-conversion project? 

 

OMG McConkey looks so good... wow! He's just different than any other WR I've seen in those workouts... 

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2 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

 

Day 2 for Mitchell. And mind you, he’s supposed to be a zone/off man corner. Some have said he’s the best player at the senior bowl.

But, but, but... I was liking the days I could get him in the 2nd round. 😭

 

 

This is why I like T'Vondre Sweat by the way:

 

 

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2 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

 

Day 2 for Mitchell. And mind you, he’s supposed to be a zone/off man corner. Some have said he’s the best player at the senior bowl.

Wilson won one too:

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

But, but, but... I was liking the days I could get him in the 2nd round. 😭

 

 

This is why I like T'Vondre Sweat by the way:

Yeah Mitchell has been one of the fastest draft risers since the CFB season ended lol. I also remember the first time I heard about him, and you could get a WR in the 1st and Mitchell in the 2nd. Definitely a pipe dream now.

 

Sweat is a guy that may slip to the 3rd or 4th round. Seems he has issues keeping his weight down and NTs don’t go that high anyways. If that’s where he lands than I’m all for it with the idea that the Strength and Conditioning coach is going to have to keep a foot up his behind.

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8 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

Darius Robinson had himself a day today 

 

 

 

I've been liking what I see from Robinson for a couple weeks now. The only thing that makes me shy away is I think we already have another him on the roster in Paye. There's alot of Missouri D vs (insert offense) on YouTube.

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3 hours ago, stitches said:

I don't think you can stop there. In today's league you need 4-5 reliable CBs and especially with Brents and Jaylon Jones, we still don't really know what they will be. They might become starters or they might flame out. We cannot afford to just assume they will be good. This has been one of Ballard's biggest mistakes in the past. 

 

True. But I just feel a Day 2 secondary player might still fit the bill, don't have to wait till Day 3. Brents, RYS, all of Ballard's high CB draft picks have come on Day 2, right?

 

WR or pass rusher will bring good returns on Day 1, if done right, IMO.

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5 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

31 but Ballard has moved past that I believe. Jaylon Jones only has 30 3/4” arms.

 

But Mitchell is 6 ft and 195 lbs.


Jaylon Jones was also a 7th round draft pick.   
 

The 32” rule may not be a 100 percent rule, but it’s pretty close.  

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2 hours ago, KB said:

I've been liking what I see from Robinson for a couple weeks now. The only thing that makes me shy away is I think we already have another him on the roster in Paye. There's alot of Missouri D vs (insert offense) on YouTube.

Actually Robinson reminds me more of Dayo Odeyingo coming out. A few people also thought Dayo was a hybrid inside/outside guy. Robinson is a more polished rusher though. 8.5 sacks this past season. My issue is the same issue that I have with Legette. 5th year player who basically had zero production until his 5th year.

 

2 hours ago, chad72 said:

 

True. But I just feel a Day 2 secondary player might still fit the bill, don't have to wait till Day 3. Brents, RYS, all of Ballard's high CB draft picks have come on Day 2, right?

 

WR or pass rusher will bring good returns on Day 1, if done right, IMO.

I think the Colts would like a true lockdown corner who can also produce some turnovers. Typically you get those players in the 1st round. Ramsey, Alexander, Tre White, Sauce, Surtain, etc… are all 1st round picks. I think JuJu can be that for sure, but if you have an opportunity to take a guy like Mitchell or Wiggins (I’m not big on DeJean as a corner prospect) you do it. 

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5 hours ago, stitches said:

I don't think you can stop there. In today's league you need 4-5 reliable CBs and especially with Brents and Jaylon Jones, we still don't really know what they will be. They might become starters or they might flame out. We cannot afford to just assume they will be good. This has been one of Ballard's biggest mistakes in the past. 


Every year fans here say the Colts rookie player didn’t show them enough to satisfy them.   So they want to turn around and re-draft that same position the very next year.    Happens every year.   It would appear you’re doing it now.   Or am I misunderstanding you?  
 

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2 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

Actually Robinson reminds me more of Dayo Odeyingo coming out. A few people also thought Dayo was a hybrid inside/outside guy. Robinson is a more polished rusher though. 8.5 sacks this past season. My issue is the same issue that I have with Legette. 5th year player who basically had zero production until his 5th year.

 

I think the Colts would like a true lockdown corner who can also produce some turnovers. Typically you get those players in the 1st round. Ramsey, Alexander, Tre White, Sauce, Surtain, etc… are all 1st round picks. I think JuJu can be that for sure, but if you have an opportunity to take a guy like Mitchell or Wiggins (I’m not big on DeJean as a corner prospect) you do it. 


FWIW…..    Dayo IS an inside-outside player.   He can play both DE positions, plus the 3-tech.   I don’t believe he has reached his peak just yet,  but he was clearly better this year.   And I’d expect another good leap next year. 

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40 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:


Jaylon Jones was also a 7th round draft pick.   
 

The 32” rule may not be a 100 percent rule, but it’s pretty close.  

So Quinyon Mitchell has 31” arms which is pretty close. But he checks all the other boxes. Here’s a SI article where Zach Hicks listed what he thinks are all the traits for Ballard corners:

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/colts/draft/build-ballard-colts-target-cornerback-nfl-draft

 

Here are the common traits that can help us build a rough mold of what Ballard might look for in rookie corners:

Typically likes 6’0”+ height for his corners (will make exceptions if a shorter corner is lengthy)

At least 190 pounds

At least 32-inch arms

Strengths: Tackling, strong in press, good in zone, competitive/tough

Weaknesses: Struggles in off-man, long speed concerns, injury concerns

+++ Special Teams Ability

Ballard Trademark: Team Captain/Senior Bowl selection

 

It does mention 32” arm length but again, I think it’s close enough. Flowers has 32” arms and Brent’s 34”. But Ballard has also said that they do have certain benchmarks but If a player is really special, they make exceptions. Kenny Moore is 5’9” but had a crazy wingspan. Mitchell will possibly run in the 4.3’s and had great college production so I think he’ll be fine. 
 

Arms are shorter, but I think him and Kenny have the same Wingspan.

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1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:


FWIW…..    Dayo IS an inside-outside player.   He can play both DE positions, plus the 3-tech.   I don’t believe he has reached his peak just yet,  but he was clearly better this year.   And I’d expect another good leap next year. 

He took a leap this year for sure. Like a noticeable leap to where he’s arguably at the same level as Paye if not better. It was his best year statistically. 8 sacks and 2 FF. I’m also interested to see what leap he takes and what Ballard will do. He’ll have decisions to make on him and Paye after next season. 

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Also quick summary from what I’ve seen/heard about senior bowl winners/losers based on scouts and coaches reports

 

Winners from First 2 days:

-Tyler Guyton, OT Oklahoma

-Jackson Powers-Johnson, Center Oregon

-Taliese Fuaga, OT Oregon State

-Ladd McConkey, WR Georgia

-Roman Wilson, WR Michigan

-Laiutu Latu, Edge UCLA

-Quinton Mitchell, CB Toledo

-Darius Robinson, DT/Edge Missouri

 

Losers from First Two Days:

-Xavier Legette, WR South Carolina

-Tez Walker, WR UNC

-Kalen King, CB Penn State

-Beaux Limner, OC Arkansas 

-Patrick Paul, OT Houston

 

These are consensus thoughts, and not my own. OL have looked great. Haven’t heard much from the LBs and safeties though. But these drills aren’t really designed for them to shine.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

Actually Robinson reminds me more of Dayo Odeyingo coming out. A few people also thought Dayo was a hybrid inside/outside guy. Robinson is a more polished rusher though. 8.5 sacks this past season. My issue is the same issue that I have with Legette. 5th year player who basically had zero production until his 5th year.

I can dig that woth his versatility. From the games I saw he holds the edge well and has a nasty bull rush. Alot of the moves I see from the senior bowl don't show up in games.

 

I believe I read that he has primarily been a 3 tech and last season injuries kind of forced the hand for him playing DE. It went fairly well. This might be why he didn't show those moves in games. He might of only been trying them since the season calmed down.

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8 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:


Every year fans here say the Colts rookie player didn’t show them enough to satisfy them.   So they want to turn around and re-draft that same position the very next year.    Happens every year.   It would appear you’re doing it now.   Or am I misunderstanding you?  
 

No, I'm not necessarily redrafting the same position. But I'm also not assuming best case scenario and I'm not missing on a great prospect because we have Jaylon Jones who has proven little to nothing in this league... yet. In other words - if you think Mitchell or Terrion Arnold or Dejean Cooper or whoever is the best prospect on the board you take him and you let them all fight it out in camp. With the attrition we are seeing in the league chances are they will all be needed at some point anyway, so yeah... 

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2 hours ago, stitches said:

No, I'm not necessarily redrafting the same position. But I'm also not assuming best case scenario and I'm not missing on a great prospect because we have Jaylon Jones who has proven little to nothing in this league... yet. In other words - if you think Mitchell or Terrion Arnold or Dejean Cooper or whoever is the best prospect on the board you take him and you let them all fight it out in camp. With the attrition we are seeing in the league chances are they will all be needed at some point anyway, so yeah... 

Agree with you completely there. I spent a lot of time on this forum talking about how good Jaylon Jones was this past season. But you always have to be looking to get better, and I think being complacent is how you stay a mediocre team. Jones was a 7th round pick, so he’s not someone you have to be content with as a starter.

 

Id say that goes for all positions unless the guy there has proven to be a stud. Heck, I wouldn’t be upset if they drafted a MLB early. Zaire is a tackling machine, but he can’t cover. We’ve also drafted WRs on Day 2 the past two drafts and most of us feel we still need better. We have a lot of solid or good players, but need more elite players. 

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3 hours ago, stitches said:

No, I'm not necessarily redrafting the same position. But I'm also not assuming best case scenario and I'm not missing on a great prospect because we have Jaylon Jones who has proven little to nothing in this league... yet. In other words - if you think Mitchell or Terrion Arnold or Dejean Cooper or whoever is the best prospect on the board you take him and you let them all fight it out in camp. With the attrition we are seeing in the league chances are they will all be needed at some point anyway, so yeah... 

 

17 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

Agree with you completely there. I spent a lot of time on this forum talking about how good Jaylon Jones was this past season. But you always have to be looking to get better, and I think being complacent is how you stay a mediocre team. Jones was a 7th round pick, so he’s not someone you have to be content with as a starter.

 

Id say that goes for all positions unless the guy there has proven to be a stud. Heck, I wouldn’t be upset if they drafted a MLB early. Zaire is a tackling machine, but he can’t cover. We’ve also drafted WRs on Day 2 the past two drafts and most of us feel we still need better. We have a lot of solid or good players, but need more elite players. 

The thing with this is Ballard builds through the draft and you only have so many shots. I know the BPA philosophy, but I'm much more into BPA at positions of need unless a generational talent is sitting in front of you. This is especially true when Ballard more or less only uses FA for one-year contract players.

 

If what you need is not there at 15 you trade back and use what IS there as leverage to get others to bite hard.

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2 hours ago, Solid84 said:

 

The thing with this is Ballard builds through the draft and you only have so many shots. I know the BPA philosophy, but I'm much more into BPA at positions of need unless a generational talent is sitting in front of you. This is especially true when Ballard more or less only uses FA for one-year contract players.

 

If what you need is not there at 15 you trade back and use what IS there as leverage to get others to bite hard.

What a need is will vary with the GM, fans, etc… we’ve seen Ballard in the past ignore what we think are needs and go elsewhere. Personally I think that’s where BPA comes in. I think we need a dynamic WR and wouldn’t be upset if we trade up for Nabers or Odunze, but I also wouldn’t force the pick. Guys like Nate Wiggins, Cooper DeJean, and Quinton are highly rated by a lot of draft people. Maybe corner isn’t the “need” we think it is, but it’s worth taking the top guy there instead of forcing the pick.

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1 minute ago, Defjamz26 said:

What a need is will vary with the GM, fans, etc… we’ve seen Ballard in the past ignore what we think are needs and go elsewhere. Personally I think that’s where BPA comes in. I think we need a dynamic WR and wouldn’t be upset if we trade up for Nabers or Odunze, but I also wouldn’t force the pick. Guys like Nate Wiggins, Cooper DeJean, and Quinton are highly rated by a lot of draft people. Maybe corner isn’t the “need” we think it is, but it’s worth taking the top guy there instead of forcing the pick.

Ballard emphasizes trenches and all his 1st rounders (except 2017) have been trade backs or trenches.

 

I don't think our need at trenches justifies a 1st rounder this year. You could argue DT, but I think that's more a depth thing, unless you're serious about finding Buckner's/Stewart's hier(s) already. I'd argue DE because I think our pass rush is lackluster, but from how Ballard spoke about our sack numbers I don't think that's where he's looking either.

 

Ballard was asked about his opinion on the Colts finishing 26th (28th?) in points allowed two seasons in a row and he more or less took the bullet for that. He said it was his decision to go young and knew the guys had to take their lumps. I don't see adding more youth and possibly having another poor season, because we added more youth, as an option. I think we're looking to add veteran competition to that room. I'm leaving the door open however (see last).

 

WR/TE(Bowers) is where I think it SHOULD be at this season, but unless one of the top 3 WRs or Bowers fall to us I think we're trading back.

 

HOWEVER, both Ballard and Steichen were photographed scouting the CB/WR workouts at the Senior Bowl. Can't find the picture now, but it was posted on X.

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2 hours ago, Solid84 said:

 

The thing with this is Ballard builds through the draft and you only have so many shots. I know the BPA philosophy, but I'm much more into BPA at positions of need unless a generational talent is sitting in front of you. This is especially true when Ballard more or less only uses FA for one-year contract players.

 

If what you need is not there at 15 you trade back and use what IS there as leverage to get others to bite hard.

Yeah, that's the thing. I'm not sure how we do not consider cornerback still a need? IMO that still is one of our weakest positions on the roster. And neither Brents, nor Jones played at a level where you are like "Oh, no worries, X is a beast and he has that one covered". Could they get there? Maybe... Have they done enough to get the chance to prove themselves? Sure. But IMO they haven't done enough to make you pass on a great player. 

 

Now on a more specific note with the Colts under Ballard - this IMO is where the real question is - does Ballard value CB so much that he would draft one in the first half of R1? I honestly don't know and if I had to guess, he probably doesn't see the position as that important and he probably doesn't think our scheme necessitates such big investment in the position. So yah... if I had to guess we probably won't draft a CB in the 1st... Maybe if we trade back? I actually think trading back is one of the most likely outcomes in this draft. :dunno:

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26 minutes ago, stitches said:

Yeah, that's the thing. I'm not sure how we do not consider cornerback still a need? IMO that still is one of our weakest positions on the roster. And neither Brents, nor Jones played at a level where you are like "Oh, no worries, X is a beast and he has that one covered". Could they get there? Maybe... Have they done enough to get the chance to prove themselves? Sure. But IMO they haven't done enough to make you pass on a great player. 

 

Now on a more specific note with the Colts under Ballard - this IMO is where the real question is - does Ballard value CB so much that he would draft one in the first half of R1? I honestly don't know and if I had to guess, he probably doesn't see the position as that important and he probably doesn't think our scheme necessitates such big investment in the position. So yah... if I had to guess we probably won't draft a CB in the 1st... Maybe if we trade back? I actually think trading back is one of the most likely outcomes in this draft. :dunno:

It's definitely a position group with a lot of question marks - I don't disagree with that. But at some point you have to stop taking chances and just solidify what is. I think adding a veteran is the way to go here and maybe add a CB later in the draft.

 

Yeah I posted above that Ballard emphasizes the trenches and besides 2017 he's either drafted trenches or traded back. Unless a top 10 (non-QB) talent lands with us I think we're trading back.

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@stitches @Solid84

 

I’ll say this. Before we get into what positions Ballard values, remember that above all he values traits. Guys with rare and elite physical traits who can be superstars. AR5, JT, Brent’s, Paye, Dayo, etc… were all guys he drafted who were elite athletes. Regardless of if we stay at 15 or trade down, I think Ballard is going to go for that. Remember, that this will only be his 4th time picking in the 1st round. His picks have been Hooker, Nelson, Paye, and AR. Probably not enough of a sample size to rule out who he won’t draft. But all of those guys have been elite athletes. 

 

So far it looks like this draft is top heavy at corner with guys that will test extremely well at the combine. I get he values the trenches, but that’s not where the talent is at this year, nor is that a major weakness on this team. I’ve been pushing the WR thing myself, but would Ballard take Coleman over a guy like Mitchell or Wiggins? Now if Nabers or Odunze fall, that’s a sprint the card in pick, but after that we don’t know. 
 

 

Right now If the draft were tomorrow I can almost guarantee he’s draft a CB. After the combine we’ll see, but to me its

 

1. CB

2. WR/Bowers

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13 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

@stitches @Solid84

 

I’ll say this. Before we get into what positions Ballard values, remember that above all he values traits. Guys with rare and elite physical traits who can be superstars. AR5, JT, Brent’s, Paye, Dayo, etc… were all guys he drafted who were elite athletes. Regardless of if we stay at 15 or trade down, I think Ballard is going to go for that. Remember, that this will only be his 4th time picking in the 1st round. His picks have been Hooker, Nelson, Paye, and AR. Probably not enough of a sample size to rule out who he won’t draft. But all of those guys have been elite athletes. 

 

So far it looks like this draft is top heavy at corner with guys that will test extremely well at the combine. I get he values the trenches, but that’s not where the talent is at this year, nor is that a major weakness on this team. I’ve been pushing the WR thing myself, but would Ballard take Coleman over a guy like Mitchell or Wiggins? Now if Nabers or Odunze fall, that’s a sprint the card in pick, but after that we don’t know. 
 

 

Right now If the draft were tomorrow I can almost guarantee he’s draft a CB. After the combine we’ll see, but to me its

 

1. CB

2. WR/Bowers

  • Athletic freak
  • Impressed at the Senior Bowl
  • Team Captain
  • Position of need

If a guy checks those boxes he's ABSOLUTELY on Ballard's board. We need the Combine to really start guessing and then for the rumours about who they are talking to start coming in. Then we can begin to narrow it down.

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True. Elite traits seems to be the overwhelming bias Ballard has. But still I take him at his word when he says his philosophy is to build from the inside out. IMO only Hooker deviates from that on players drafted in R1 or acquired via 1st round pick and we have a reason to believe Ballard really thought Hooker would be special FS. I think at the time there was a leaked photo that showed Hooker's card on the Colts board and they had him ranked as the 3d best player in the draft. 

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5 minutes ago, stitches said:

True. Elite traits seems to be the overwhelming bias Ballard has. But still I take him at his word when he says his philosophy is to build from the inside out. IMO only Hooker deviates from that on players drafted in R1 or acquired via 1st round pick and we have a reason to believe Ballard really thought Hooker would be special FS. I think at the time there was a leaked photo that showed Hooker's card on the Colts board and they had him ranked as the 3d best player in the draft. 

On Hooker, I'd say that was more Pagano. He was dead certain that Hooker was the next Ed Reid.

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Just now, KB said:

On Hooker, I'd say that was more Pagano. He was dead certain that Hooker was the next Ed Reid.

That's probably true. It'll actually be interesting to see what influence Steichen will have on this process.

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1 minute ago, Solid84 said:

That's probably true. It'll actually be interesting to see what influence Steichen will have on this process.

That's why I'm leaning so hard for WR/Bowers. Offensive coach

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18 hours ago, KB said:

I've been liking what I see from Robinson for a couple weeks now. The only thing that makes me shy away is I think we already have another him on the roster in Paye. There's alot of Missouri D vs (insert offense) on YouTube.

 

 This would mean you believe Paye = Dayo. And we definitely need to add a young high quality prospect for development. They typically take 2 plus years to become good even if drafted in the first half of rd 1.

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23 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

 

Day 2 for Mitchell. And mind you, he’s supposed to be a zone/off man corner. Some have said he’s the best player at the senior bowl.

FWIW his PFF grade is absolutely insane. 2023 overall is a 91.5, a dip from his 22 season from 92.5.... for 2023 Coverage grade is 91.6, man coverage 88.7 zone coverage is 85.9.    His competition isn't great so this week is huge for him.

 

some other grades of guys at CB

 

Cooper Dejean 2023 overall 77.4, coverage 76.8 man coverage 63.7 zone is 73.1

 

Nate Wiggins overall 81.6, coverage 82.9, man coverage 78.5, zone is 74

 

Terrion Arnold overall 88.3, coverage 84.9, man coverage 61.2 zone is 81.9

 

Kool-aid McKinstry overall 88.8, coverage 87.8, man coverage 74.7 zone is 83.8

 

Ennis Rakestraw overall is 80.7 coverage 78.7, man coverage 56.6 zone is 85.2

 

PFF is to be taken with a grain of salt still but that's insane for Mitchell to be graded that high.

 

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