Joe Montana finally conceded: Brady is the GOAT

[holeymoley99]

10 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I think Wilt gets a bad rap because he only won 2 Championships, Russell won 11. Having said that IMO Wilt was better than Russell. If it was a one on one game, Wilt would whip Russell. Only Kareem was better than Wilt IMO, Shaq was Wilt like too.

Russell had the MUCH better squad around him, put that talent around Wilt and he wins even more than 11 titles. Kareem was an all time great and Shaq was too but Wilt was so far above everyone. Not sure most even realize his numbers they are video game like.

 

Wilt's career average per game are as follow :

 

45.8 minutes ,  30.1 points , 22.9 rebounds

 

In 1961-62 season he averaged   50.4 points per game......let that sink in ....crazy

In 1960-61 season he averaged   27.2 rebounds per game (Year before 27.0)

In 1961-62 season he averaged 48.5 minutes a game (Games are 48 minutes without ot). 

 

 

 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 hour ago, holeymoley99 said:

Russell had the MUCH better squad around him, put that talent around Wilt and he wins even more than 11 titles. Kareem was an all time great and Shaq was too but Wilt was so far above everyone. Not sure most even realize his numbers they are video game like.

 

Wilt's career average per game are as follow :

 

45.8 minutes ,  30.1 points , 22.9 rebounds

 

In 1961-62 season he averaged   50.4 points per game......let that sink in ....crazy

In 1960-61 season he averaged   27.2 rebounds per game (Year before 27.0)

In 1961-62 season he averaged 48.5 minutes a game (Games are 48 minutes without ot). 

 

 

 

 

I agree, Russell was on stacked teams. I would take Wilt over Russell anyday. Kareem was much better than Russell though. Kareem played 20 years and is the all-time leading scorer with 6 League MVP's. Everywhere Kareem went his teams won. Kareem won 3 championships in High School, 3 in college and 6 in the pro's. His skyhook was unstoppable. Shaq in the 3 seasons he 3-peated with the Lakers (2000-2002) put up video game like numbers during all those finals. Teams had to go to the hack a Shaq just to try anything to stop him. He was a load.

[holeymoley99]

Both Kareem and Shaq were great players without a doubt, Wilt was just another world.

 

Career stats

 

Kareem- 24.6 points...11.2 rebounds... 36.8 minutes

Shaq-  23.7 points...10.9 rebound....34.7 minutes

 

Wilt again...30.1 points..22.9 rebounds...45.8 minutes...

 

Bob Pettit is 3rd all time in rebounds per game at 16.2...Wilt averaged  7.7 rebounds per game MORE than 3 all time......

 

Again just a shame we tend to forget over time the greatness of those of eras gone by and are quick to push best of current era to all time greatness.

 

Some day in NHL someone will become better then Gretsky in people's minds who didnt see Wayne play. I remember when people were pushing Mike Tyson up the all time greatest Heavyweight list which now looks laughable looking back.

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 hour ago, holeymoley99 said:

Both Kareem and Shaq were great players without a doubt, Wilt was just another world.

 

Career stats

 

Kareem- 24.6 points...11.2 rebounds... 36.8 minutes

Shaq-  23.7 points...10.9 rebound....34.7 minutes

 

Wilt again...30.1 points..22.9 rebounds...45.8 minutes...

 

Bob Pettit is 3rd all time in rebounds per game at 16.2...Wilt averaged  7.7 rebounds per game MORE than 3 all time......

 

Again just a shame we tend to forget over time the greatness of those of eras gone by and are quick to push best of current era to all time greatness.

 

Some day in NHL someone will become better then Gretsky in people's minds who didnt see Wayne play. I remember when people were pushing Mike Tyson up the all time greatest Heavyweight list which now looks laughable looking back.

Back when Wilt and Russell played teams shot a poor FG% overall. Rebounding and defense won a lot of games back then, that is one reason why Russell won a lot besides being on stacked teams lol. To me the greatest rebounder of all-time is Dennis Rodman, what he did at 6'7 should not have been humanly possible during the 90's when every PF and Centers were 6'9 - 7'2 on average.

 

Gretzky is and always will be the greatest hockey player ever but that is my opinion. If you go by peak, Mike Tyson from 1985-1989 would pretty much demolish anyone in the history of boxing. He just didn't have the longevity an Ali, Frazier, Foreman, or Holmes had due to having problems with the law and being in prison for 3 years. When Cus past away that messed Mike up.

 

To me what really bugs me is how anyone can rank or say that LeBron James is better than Magic Johnson?? That just isn't true. Magic's career got cut short but here are some crucial stats and accomplishments that show Magic was better:

 

Magic = 52 FG%, 84.8 FT%, and his Assists avg ranks #1 all-time at 11.2 per season. He was way more efficient than LeBron has been.

 

LeBron = 50.4 FG%, 73.4 FT%, 7.4 Assists for his career. 

 

LeBron has averaged more points per season 27.0 to Magic's 19.5 but that is due to Magic not being selfish and getting everyone involved. I have seen games where Magic could score 40 in his sleep but that wasn't his game. As a rookie Magic scored 42 points against Philly (Doc, Dawkins, Cheeks) at Philly to seal the Championship playing freakin Center and Guard lol. 

 

Magic 5 Titles to LeBron's 4, Magic also won a Championship in college. 

[King Colt]

Silly to try to compare different generation of athletes when the rules and equipment change. Like baseball when they change how the ball is wound. Supposedly fewer home runs this coming season due to changes in the ball. Todays scrub pro football players would kill the best teams of the 60s due to training, nutrition, computers, etc. That holds true of all sports especially the Olympics.

[crazycolt1]

22 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I agree, Russell was on stacked teams. I would take Wilt over Russell anyday. Kareem was much better than Russell though. Kareem played 20 years and is the all-time leading scorer with 6 League MVP's. Everywhere Kareem went his teams won. Kareem won 3 championships in High School, 3 in college and 6 in the pro's. His skyhook was unstoppable. Shaq in the 3 seasons he 3-peated with the Lakers (2000-2002) put up video game like numbers during all those finals. Teams had to go to the hack a Shaq just to try anything to stop him. He was a load.

Shaq started getting his numbers only after the NBA changed the rules to keep him from fouling out most games. 

They threw the charging fouls completely out the window. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

37 minutes ago, King Colt said:

Silly to try to compare different generation of athletes when the rules and equipment change. Like baseball when they change how the ball is wound. Supposedly fewer home runs this coming season due to changes in the ball. Todays scrub pro football players would kill the best teams of the 60s due to training, nutrition, computers, etc. That holds true of all sports especially the Olympics.

Following sports since the late 70's and looking back at the 50's and 60's, the 80's athlete looked so much better as a whole IMO. It is very tough to compare generations I agree. Could you imagine Babe Ruth trying to hit an Aroldis Chapman 103 MPH fastball for example? Back when Ruth played I am not sure anyone could even throw 90 MPH??

[2006Coltsbestever]

20 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Shaq started getting his numbers only after the NBA changed the rules to keep him from fouling out most games. 

They threw the charging fouls completely out the window. 

He also got hacked a lot to keep it fair. He was impossible to Ref, like LeBron James bulldozing his way down the lane, it's either a charge, foul on the D, or a no call. Some players are impossible to Ref fairly because of their size.

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

He also got hacked a lot to keep it fair. He was impossible to Ref, like LeBron James bulldozing his way down the lane, it's either a charge, foul on the D, or a no call. Some players are impossible to Ref fairly because of their size.

It wouldn't be impossible to ref if they enforced the original rules in the first place. 

It was the NBA who done away with fouls in the lane. 

[Lancer1]

On ‎3‎/‎4‎/‎2021 at 9:20 AM, chad72 said:

 

Montana did play in an era where they could rough up the QB more, Belichick played a big part of it as Giants DC vs the 49ers. Brady didn't have to go against Belichick in the Patriots' prime defensive years like Peyton did, that he has to be thankful for based on what the likes of Jim Kelly, Joe Montana, Peyton endured against Belichick's Ds over history.  

Montana is the GOAT to me, he played in a time in which you could rough up the wideouts, you could annihilate quarterbacks and he still went 4-0 in Superbowls, his team never having to cheat ala "Spygate" which accounted for Brady's first 3 rings, and "Joe Cool" never threw an interception in any one of those 4 games.

[holeymoley99]

On 3/6/2021 at 7:30 AM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Back when Wilt and Russell played teams shot a poor FG% overall. Rebounding and defense won a lot of games back then, that is one reason why Russell won a lot besides being on stacked teams lol. To me the greatest rebounder of all-time is Dennis Rodman, what he did at 6'7 should not have been humanly possible during the 90's when every PF and Centers were 6'9 - 7'2 on average.

 

Gretzky is and always will be the greatest hockey player ever but that is my opinion. If you go by peak, Mike Tyson from 1985-1989 would pretty much demolish anyone in the history of boxing. He just didn't have the longevity an Ali, Frazier, Foreman, or Holmes had due to having problems with the law and being in prison for 3 years. When Cus past away that messed Mike up.

 

To me what really bugs me is how anyone can rank or say that LeBron James is better than Magic Johnson?? That just isn't true. Magic's career got cut short but here are some crucial stats and accomplishments that show Magic was better:

 

Magic = 52 FG%, 84.8 FT%, and his Assists avg ranks #1 all-time at 11.2 per season. He was way more efficient than LeBron has been.

 

LeBron = 50.4 FG%, 73.4 FT%, 7.4 Assists for his career. 

 

LeBron has averaged more points per season 27.0 to Magic's 19.5 but that is due to Magic not being selfish and getting everyone involved. I have seen games where Magic could score 40 in his sleep but that wasn't his game. As a rookie Magic scored 42 points against Philly (Doc, Dawkins, Cheeks) at Philly to seal the Championship playing freakin Center and Guard lol. 

 

Magic 5 Titles to LeBron's 4, Magic also won a Championship in college. 

No a prime Tyson definitely would not have demolished anyone in his prime lol.   I work in the Boxing/MMA industry so have a bit more insight than most but it is universally accepted Mike was in the right place at the right time and matched the right way. Yes losing Cus certainly hurt his development and he never became a complete fighter but even if Cus had stayed alive no telling if Mike could or would have made the leap. Mike was steered clear of Holyfield long enough that he lost his title to a much more athletic though lazy Hvy in Buster Douglas which prevented him losing to Evander at that point which he would have (Holyfield used to get the better of Mike going back to amateur sparring sessions, he always was the better fighter).  Mike beat older past their prime fighters like Larry Holmes who was shot, Michael Spinks who had 2 knees with heavy damage (He wore bandages on both for their fight, video clearly shows them) , Tony Tubbs....the other younger fighters of that era were not good...Tyrell Biggs Olympic champion had major drug problems, Henry Tillman who beat Mike twice to deny Tyson going to the Olympics had a glass jaw and couldnt take even an average punch.     If a young Lennox Lewis,Riddick Bowe had come along earlier either beats Tyson and Lewis toyed with Mike when they fought and tried not to hurt him while knocking him out. Casual fans love the power 1 punch knockout artists, it sells and can be hyped we call it Buying into the Bluff in our business , I've made money of it selling bouts we all have, its part of the business a big part honestly.  I do wish Cus hadnt passed because again not sure how far Mike would have went in the ring BUT out of the ring I believe Cus could have really saved Mike from so many of his troubles and his life would have turned out much better.

[The Fish]

11 minutes ago, holeymoley99 said:

No a prime Tyson definitely would not have demolished anyone in his prime lol. 

You can only play the games on the schedule so to speak. His standing speaks for it's self.  (As does his conviction that no one cares about anymore- which I find exceedingly strange in this era).

[holeymoley99]

3 minutes ago, The Fish said:

You can only play the games on the schedule so to speak. His standing speaks for it's self.  (As does his conviction that no one cares about anymore- which I find exceedingly strange in this era).

And his standing is nowhere near the top of All Time heavys which speaks for itself...lol

[The Fish]

Just now, holeymoley99 said:

And his standing is nowhere near the top of All Time heavys which speaks for itself...lol

You can say that. I won't spend a large amount of time on it- but you're not going to find a large audience going "yup- that's what we saw too".

 

Onward

[2006Coltsbestever]

13 minutes ago, holeymoley99 said:

No a prime Tyson definitely would not have demolished anyone in his prime lol.   I work in the Boxing/MMA industry so have a bit more insight than most but it is universally accepted Mike was in the right place at the right time and matched the right way. Yes losing Cus certainly hurt his development and he never became a complete fighter but even if Cus had stayed alive no telling if Mike could or would have made the leap. Mike was steered clear of Holyfield long enough that he lost his title to a much more athletic though lazy Hvy in Buster Douglas which prevented him losing to Evander at that point which he would have (Holyfield used to get the better of Mike going back to amateur sparring sessions, he always was the better fighter).  Mike beat older past their prime fighters like Larry Holmes who was shot, Michael Spinks who had 2 knees with heavy damage (He wore bandages on both for their fight, video clearly shows them) , Tony Tubbs....the other younger fighters of that era were not good...Tyrell Biggs Olympic champion had major drug problems, Henry Tillman who beat Mike twice to deny Tyson going to the Olympics had a glass jaw and couldnt take even an average punch.     If a young Lennox Lewis,Riddick Bowe had come along earlier either beats Tyson and Lewis toyed with Mike when they fought and tried not to hurt him while knocking him out. Casual fans love the power 1 punch knockout artists, it sells and can be hyped we call it Buying into the Bluff in our business , I've made money of it selling bouts we all have, its part of the business a big part honestly.  I do wish Cus hadnt passed because again not sure how far Mike would have went in the ring BUT out of the ring I believe Cus could have really saved Mike from so many of his troubles and his life would have turned out much better.

Sounds like you know the fight game much better than me because you have actually been around it in person more than me. So I won't debate your stance too much here. Having said that when Mike lost to Buster it was pretty obvious that Mike didn't even train for that fight and clearly overlooked Buster thinking he would win easily. Also if you remember Mike did knock Buster down in the 8th round and Buster basically got a 13 count so he caught a huge break in reality. When it comes to Evander, It is hard to say had Cus not passed away that Mike would've lost to him. Evander had an iron jaw and great stamina = 2 strength's that helped him vs Mike. When Mike fought Lennox, he was way past his prime, that was like in 2002 if I remember right. Mike wasn't near the same fighter then as he was in the 80's and 90's. Mike did beat strong fighters like Razor Ruddock and Frank Bruno which were 2 really good fighters that were much bigger than Mike and they were far from tomato cans.

[holeymoley99]

1 minute ago, The Fish said:

You can say that. I won't spend a large amount of time on it- but you're not going to find a large audience going "yup- that's what we saw too".

 

Onward

Really ? LOL...because again I work in the business so talk to umm...quite a lot of people....I am a matchmaker. I make the bouts you watch (less glamorous than it sounds usually trust me...think babysitting up to 40 adults for weeks about up to date blood work, eyes, weigh being on point,training injuries, issues with their trainers and gyms,problems outside the ring/cage...wanting additional money for travel last minute...and just last night had a Heavyweight pass out cage side as he was about to get in the cage and fight ruled off...).

[holeymoley99]

6 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Sounds like you know the fight game much better than me because you have actually been around it in person more than me. So I won't debate your stance too much here. Having said that when Mike lost to Buster it was pretty obvious that Mike didn't even train for that fight and clearly overlooked Buster thinking he would win easily. Also if you remember Mike did knock Buster down in the 8th round and Buster basically got a 13 count so he caught a huge break in reality. When it comes to Evander, It is hard to say had Cus not passed away that Mike would've lost to him. Evander had an iron jaw and great stamina = 2 strength's that helped him vs Mike. When Mike fought Lennox, he was way past his prime, that was like in 2002 if I remember right. Mike wasn't near the same fighter then as he was in the 80's and 90's. Mike did beat strong fighters like Razor Ruddock and Frank Bruno which were 2 really good fighters that were much bigger than Mike and they were far from tomato cans.

Let me first address the Buster long count, there is no controversy at all, Buster was disappointed he got caught and knocked down but was not badly hurt at all he could have got up at anytime but took the count the ref in front of him administered , he could have been up at anytime (This wasnt Dempsey/Tunney)  and no a ten count isnt ten seconds there is no stopwatch some refs count longer and some shorter in reaching the ten.   Second Mike trained for Douglas, wasnt a good camp in fact he was hurt in sparring with oversized gloves and headgear vs former champion Greg Page 3-4 prior to the fight....and Mike let go of his usual corner as Don King told him the white man was his enemy so no Kevin Rooney...Aaron Snowell and Jay Bright were his chief corners...Snowell was so unprepared he didn even have an enswell so when Mike's eye started closing he put ice in a glove tied it and put it on Mike's eye...we were dying laughing...most the ice was melted so instead of draining and compressing he essentially was rubbing a glove with water on a fighter's eye......seriously again all on film.

 

Frank Bruno was terrible in his prime he lost to Bonecrusher Smith and his only big win his opponent threw the fight (Tim Witherspoon rd 1 ) because Don King had screwed him out of money and Tim wanted out of the contract.

 

Razor Ruddock was strong, had a weird hybrid uppercut hook that only he threw and caught some guys but Donovan was not a top guy (Lewis koed him in 2 rounds a year after Tyson went the distance with him for comparison sake).

[holeymoley99]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/582276-mike-tyson-is-no-ali-why-tyson-is-not-a-top-10-heavyweight-o

 

One of many ranking all time top Heavys...this article goes more in depth than most, good read

[2006Coltsbestever]

15 minutes ago, holeymoley99 said:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/582276-mike-tyson-is-no-ali-why-tyson-is-not-a-top-10-heavyweight-o

 

One of many ranking all time top Heavys...this article goes more in depth than most, good read

I am not really a huge fan of Bleacher Report but there are several lists that keep Mike out of the top 10. I just disagree and we will have to agree to disagree on Mike not at least being in the top 10. Yeah when Mike was getting his eye treated during the Buster fight I was like WTH is that, I even knew that was ridiculous. If he did train for Buster it was a poor camp and it showed. Regarding Bruno, Bruno was 32-2 going into the Tyson and was considered a good heavy WT by many, nothing great but good. Razor Ruddock had great power and was much bigger than Mike, Mike's 2 wins over Razor were solid wins IMO. He knocked Razor out in one of those fights, the other was a Unanimous decision. 

 

Some fighters also have an off night, Remember when Lennox got KO'd by Oliver McCall in the 2nd round and that was when Lennox was smack in his prime and undefeated. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

Also I want to add, I did say Mike would pretty much demolish anyone (peak Mike only which was a short peak =1985-1989). 'Pretty much' is the key word. Obviously doesn't mean 'all fighters' as in perhaps prime Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes - who he did beat but Holmes was past his prime then, he would not demolish those guys. Even when Mike fought Evander he wasn't the same fighter as he was in the 80's, still very good but not great at that point. I am not trying to make excuses for Mike but I am just going by my eye test and the knowledge I have of the fight game by watching and learning.  

[holeymoley99]

10 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I am not really a huge fan of Bleacher Report but there are several lists that keep Mike out of the top 10. I just disagree and we will have to agree to disagree on Mike not at least being in the top 10. Yeah when Mike was getting his eye treated during the Buster fight I was like WTH is that, I even knew that was ridiculous. If he did train for Buster it was a poor camp and it showed. Regarding Bruno, Bruno was 32-2 going into the Tyson and was considered a good heavy WT by many, nothing great but good. Razor Ruddock had great power and was much bigger than Mike, Mike's 2 wins over Razor were solid wins IMO. He knocked Razor out in one of those fights, the other was a Unanimous decision. 

 

Some fighters also have an off night, Remember when Lennox got KO'd by Oliver McCall in the 2nd round and that was when Lennox was smack in his prime and undefeated. 

Mccall could hit, always had a punchers chance was just very mentally unstable, had a nervous breakdown in the ring crying mid fight...that was hard to watch.

[holeymoley99]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Also I want to add, I did say Mike would pretty much demolish anyone (peak Mike only which was a short peak =1985-1989). 'Pretty much' is the key word. Obviously doesn't mean 'all fighters' as in perhaps prime Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes - who he did beat but Holmes was past his prime then, he would not demolish those guys. Even when Mike fought Evander he wasn't the same fighter as he was in the 80's, still very good but not great at that point. I am not trying to make excuses for Mike but I am just going by my eye test and the knowledge I have of the fight game by watching and learning.  

Good too see some Boxing fans on here that can have good conversations....wasnt sure any on here or mma fans either.

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, holeymoley99 said:

Good too see some Boxing fans on here that can have good conversations....wasnt sure any on here or mma fans either.

I had no idea you loved Boxing, can't find hardly anyone in here that does. I used to never miss a big fight back in the 80's or 90's. Once Cable TV got big with HBO and ESPN, the fights were always on. I am not excited today by the Heavy WT class too much. I am really not sure how good Tyson Fury is? or how good Deontay Wilder is either? I was never a fan of Klitschko either. I like the days of Mike, Evander, and Lennox .

 

Yeah great convo good Sir.

[holeymoley99]

2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I had no idea you loved Boxing, can't find hardly anyone in here that does. I used to never miss a big fight back in the 80's or 90's. Once Cable TV got big with HBO and ESPN, the fights were always on. I am not excited today by the Heavy WT class too much. I am really not sure how good Tyson Fury is? or how good Deontay Wilder is either? I was never a fan of Klitschko either. I like the days of Mike, Evander, and Lennox .

 

Yeah great convo good Sir.

I grew up watching the fights and attending from a  young age met Jersey Joe Walcott when I was young like 6-7, always wanted to be a Boxing matchmaker even told elementary teachers when they asked what career we wanted and most laughed...then I started wrestling at age 11 and went  to make 2 State Finals with 1 State title down here in Florida...went up to Pennsylvania to wrestle through college (And went to A.C. for some big bouts..Saw Holyfield/McDonugh which was Evander's bout before beating Douglas and was ringside for Ray Mercer/Tommy Morrison which was most vicius ko Ive ever seen, and was in Ray's entourage for his post fight interview)  and after graduated came back down to the Sunshine State and started coaching  Wrestling...eventually several of my wrestlers went into the MMA world so I became an mma instructor, then started Judging MMA,Boxing,Muay Thai,San Sho, got into doing PPV color commentary and Matchmaking. Down here many cards are MMA/Boxing/Muay Thai Kickboxing/Grappling . Have probably matchmade about 600 bouts in all and assisted another 400 or so.....nothing like I pictured it to be job....again like babysitting but pays well at times..lol....

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 minutes ago, holeymoley99 said:

I grew up watching the fights and attending from a  young age met Jersey Joe Walcott when I was young like 6-7, always wanted to be a Boxing matchmaker even told elementary teachers when they asked what career we wanted and most laughed...then I started wrestling at age 11 and went  to make 2 State Finals with 1 State title down here in Florida...went up to Pennsylvania to wrestle through college (And went to A.C. for some big bouts..Saw Holyfield/McDonugh which was Evander's bout before beating Douglas and was ringside for Ray Mercer/Tommy Morrison which was most vicius ko Ive ever seen, and was in Ray's entourage for his post fight interview)  and after graduated came back down to the Sunshine State and started coaching  Wrestling...eventually several of my wrestlers went into the MMA world so I became an mma instructor, then started Judging MMA,Boxing,Muay Thai,San Sho, got into doing PPV color commentary and Matchmaking. Down here many cards are MMA/Boxing/Muay Thai Kickboxing/Grappling . Have probably matchmade about 600 bouts in all and assisted another 400 or so.....nothing like I pictured it to be job....again like babysitting but pays well at times..lol....

Yeah, good stuff man! I met Ray Mercer one time. He was at an Apple Bee's here in Indy a long time ago. I was in there eating and this huge guy came in with a friend. I told a buddy of mine I was with, I know him from some where but I couldn't figure it out for a while. Then I said to myself, that is freakin Ray Mercer. I have no idea why he was in Indianapolis, I didn't ask him, didn't want to bother him but as I was leaving I went over to his table nervous as hell and said you are Ray Mercer right? lol. He said yeah, I vaguely remember saying something like Mr Mercer you are a good fighter sir and I just wanted to say hi, I shook his hand and then left. In person he is huge when you are right there next to him. He was a gentle giant.

 

I remember when he wrecked Tommy Morrison! Those punches he threw to knock Tommy out were vicious.

[holeymoley99]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah, good stuff man! I met Ray Mercer one time. He was at an Apple Bee's here in Indy a long time ago. I was in there eating and this huge guy came in with a friend. I told a buddy of mine I was with, I know him from some where but I couldn't figure it out for a while. Then I said to myself, that is freakin Ray Mercer. I have no idea why he was in Indianapolis, I didn't ask him, didn't want to bother him but as I was leaving I went over to his table nervous as hell and said you are Ray Mercer right? lol. He said yeah, I vaguely remember saying something like Mr Mercer you are a good fighter sir and I just wanted to say hi, I shook his hand and then left. In person he is huge when you are right there next to him. He was a gentle giant.

 

I remember when he wrecked Tommy Morrison! Those punches he threw to knock Tommy out were vicious.

He came across as a nice guy,strong as can be, Tommy got tangled in the ropes and Joe Cortez couldnt get in between them quick enough, really ruined Morrison career he was never the same. Mercer beat him in the opening round of the Olympic Trials as well but both were unbeaten Pro's

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, holeymoley99 said:

He came across as a nice guy,strong as can be, Tommy got tangled in the ropes and Joe Cortez couldnt get in between them quick enough, really ruined Morrison career he was never the same. Mercer beat him in the opening round of the Olympic Trials as well but both were unbeaten Pro's

Yeah I think both Mercer and Tommy were undefeated at the time they fought. 2 huge power punchers. It is ashame with how Tommy's life went. He was a good fighter as well.

[holeymoley99]

3 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah I think both Mercer and Tommy were undefeated at the time they fought. 2 huge power punchers. It is ashame with how Tommy's life went. He was a good fighter as well.

Tommy made a ton of bad life choices steroids among the top, really was a shame and the denial at the end was hard to see.....his body just was destroyed and he wasted away 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 hour ago, holeymoley99 said:

Tommy made a ton of bad life choices steroids among the top, really was a shame and the denial at the end was hard to see.....his body just was destroyed and he wasted away 

Yeah we have turned this into a Boxing thread but oh well  . My favorite WT class during the 80's was the Middle WT's = Sugar Ray Leonard, Marvin Hagler, Tommy Hearns, Roberto Duran, and John the 'Beast' Mugabi. Talk about extreme talent and great fighters. Man that 1st Sugar Ray Leonard/Tommy Hearns fight was a classic. Leonard pulled that out but it took everything he had! So was the 1st Leonard/Duran fight. Leonard made Duran look like a clown in the 2nd one though. I remember when Leonard fought Hagler finally. My dad was a huge Hagler fan. My dad (RIP now) was about guys that were just mean and tough, I loved Leonard who could actually box and use speed to his advantage. Anyway I kept trying to tell dad that Leonard would win and he wouldn't listen  . I said watch, he will use his jab and stay away from him and win on points. That is exactly what he did. My dad was like, no Hagler will knock him out. I said at the time that isn't happening, Hagler was too slow for Leonard and Leonard didn't have a glass jaw like Hearns had. Hearns was a tremendous power puncher but his jaw was glass. Duran was one scary dude and really was the only guy that took it too Leonard in their 1st fight, even then I thought the fight was a Draw but Duran got the decision.

[holeymoley99]

2 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah we have turned this into a Boxing thread but oh well  . My favorite WT class during the 80's was the Middle WT's = Sugar Ray Leonard, Marvin Hagler, Tommy Hearns, Roberto Duran, and John the 'Beast' Mugabi. Talk about extreme talent and great fighters. Man that 1st Sugar Ray Leonard/Tommy Hearns fight was a classic. Leonard pulled that out but it took everything he had! So was the 1st Leonard/Duran fight. Leonard made Duran look like a clown in the 2nd one though. I remember when Leonard fought Hagler finally. My dad was a huge Hagler fan. My dad (RIP now) was about guys that were just mean and tough, I loved Leonard who could actually box and use speed to his advantage. Anyway I kept trying to tell dad that Leonard would win and he wouldn't listen  . I said watch, he will use his jab and stay away from him and win on points. That is exactly what he did. My dad was like, no Hagler will knock him out. I said at the time that isn't happening, Hagler was too slow for Leonard and Leonard didn't have a glass jaw like Hearns had. Hearns was a tremendous power puncher but his jaw was glass. Duran was one scary dude and really was the only guy that took it too Leonard in their 1st fight, even then I thought the fight was a Draw but Duran got the decision.

Agree 100% those were amazing battles with Leonard,Duran,Hagler,Hearns...I also thought Leonard would prevail because of what you said and him flurrying as need to steal close rounds. Hagler /Hearns was one of best toe to toe slugfests ever ....Tommy's chin was his Achilles heal...I also remember when Saquon's Barkley  great uncle Iran "The Blade" Barkley upset Tommy by KO then beat him in the rematch as well.

[2006Coltsbestever]

11 minutes ago, holeymoley99 said:

Agree 100% those were amazing battles with Leonard,Duran,Hagler,Hearns...I also thought Leonard would prevail because of what you said and him flurrying as need to steal close rounds. Hagler /Hearns was one of best toe to toe slugfests ever ....Tommy's chin was his Achilles heal...I also remember when Saquon's Barkley  great uncle Iran "The Blade" Barkley upset Tommy by KO then beat him in the rematch as well.

Yeah Hearns could've been the best out of all of them but his jaw couldn't take the punches that a Hagler or Duran could. That Hagler/Hearns fight was like something out of a Rocky movie, non-stop slugfest! Hearns had Hagler hurt but Hagler could take a lot of punishment and withstand it. Those fighters were all great. I brought Mugabi up because he was 25-0 with 25 KO's going into his fight with Hagler and he had Hagler beat until Hagler KO'd him late in that fight.

[holeymoley99]

12 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah Hearns could've been the best out of all of them but his jaw couldn't take the punches that a Hagler or Duran could. That Hagler/Hearns fight was like something out of a Rocky movie, non-stop slugfest! Hearns had Hagler hurt but Hagler could take a lot of punishment and withstand it. Those fighters were all great. I brought Mugabi up because he was 25-0 with 25 KO's going into his fight with Hagler and he had Hagler beat until Hagler KO'd him late in that fight.

Mugabi was very solid, hit so hard and won a Silver medal at 1980 Olympics  (Lost to Aldama from Cuba who Sugar Ray beat for gold 4 years earlier). His bout vs Hagler was first fight shown on Showtime. He had a good career after that fight and won a world title though didnt hold it long.   Mustafa Hamsho was another whom brawled and banged with Hagler. Wilfred Benitez was another one I enjoyed during that time, turned pro at 15 and won world title at 17..

[2006Coltsbestever]

9 minutes ago, holeymoley99 said:

Mugabi was very solid, hit so hard and won a Silver medal at 1980 Olympics  (Lost to Aldama from Cuba who Sugar Ray beat for gold 4 years earlier). His bout vs Hagler was first fight shown on Showtime. He had a good career after that fight and won a world title though didnt hold it long.   Mustafa Hamsho was another whom brawled and banged with Hagler. Wilfred Benitez was another one I enjoyed during that time, turned pro at 15 and won world title at 17..

I remember the Leonard/Benitez fight, I was real young then. Benitez was solid and gave Leonard fits. That almost went the distance. Leonard got him in the 15th round.

[2006Coltsbestever]

@holeymoley99, where do you rank Mayweather all-time? He was never beaten. Great defensive fighter, very smart fighter, great jab, but I am not sure where I would rank him.

[holeymoley99]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

@holeymoley99, where do you rank Mayweather all-time? He was never beaten. Great defensive fighter, very smart fighter, great jab, but I am not sure where I would rank him.

Floyd is so hard to rank because he never has been beaten as you said, rarely even challenged or pressed didnt have the best competition but so many skills to go with natural talent. He is def top 10 maybe even higher. I think Ray Robinson and Henry Armstrong are 1A and 1B ( I lean Armstrong because he held titles in 3 weigh classes at same time when we only had 8 weight classes total which is mind boggling).  I know J.C. Chavez started with 87 straight wins (I still think Taylor stoppage was incorrect but thats picking hairs).

 

Funny story about Floyd, I won a contest on sports radio in 1996 to meet Olympic Team at Sea World Orlando and have lunch with them and was allowed 2 guests, multiple other winners but weird thing is when we all went to area they werent there ( We were handed box lunches and got in the theme park for free so others winners were like sucks oh well....i was like no Im meeting these guys so asked security and more workers and me and fiancee and best bud tracked them down back area and ate with them. At first they were kinda standoffish though polite but when i asked Hvy Nate Jones if he still had bite marks from trials where Davaryll Williamson bit him they all perked up and were like wait you know about that and who we actually are ? I spouted off their names and actual scores from Olympic trials and they said what do you want pics ? Autographs / Anything you are a real fan. Floyd was so nice and down to earth back then despite having the most well know background. Zab Judah was there and said you dont know who I am Im not even on the team...I said "You are Zab Judah alternate because david Diaz upset you twice.....he looked laughed and said ill give you a $1,000 if you make him disappear in Shamu's whale tank (We all cracked up david including who was nearby). Only ones missing were Antonio Tarver who is from Orlando and was doing local press interviews and david Reid who was in trouble with domestic allegations.  We chatted some wrestling when they asked my background and Eric Morel even suggested me and Floyd grapple and roll since we were same weight, Floyd who had no wrestling at all said no way if he got hurt doing something like that he would get in huge trouble....I would have loved it.

[Nesjan3]

On 3/4/2021 at 4:59 PM, holeymoley99 said:

If we go by winningest QB in pro Football history no one even comes close nor ever will to Otto Graham...10 year career won title as a rookie made championship game every single season with 7 titles and 3 runnerups.....Football only sport that shutters some of its history. Super Bowl 1 was not first world title games, always found it kinda crazy.  Lets cut out all the Yankees history prior to 1967 and changes dynamics, lets forget about NBA before 1967, NHL as well.......

 

Not saying titles are end all BUT for those spouting that for Brady well Graham was much bigger winner...not close.

This ^, nobody ever talks about the Browns of the 50s. The pre-Superbowl era seems to be forgotten all together for some reason. Otto is definitely among the best in the top 5 for sure. I wouldnt say 1 because it was a different game back then.

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 hours ago, holeymoley99 said:

Floyd is so hard to rank because he never has been beaten as you said, rarely even challenged or pressed didnt have the best competition but so many skills to go with natural talent. He is def top 10 maybe even higher. I think Ray Robinson and Henry Armstrong are 1A and 1B ( I lean Armstrong because he held titles in 3 weigh classes at same time when we only had 8 weight classes total which is mind boggling).  I know J.C. Chavez started with 87 straight wins (I still think Taylor stoppage was incorrect but thats picking hairs).

 

Funny story about Floyd, I won a contest on sports radio in 1996 to meet Olympic Team at Sea World Orlando and have lunch with them and was allowed 2 guests, multiple other winners but weird thing is when we all went to area they werent there ( We were handed box lunches and got in the theme park for free so others winners were like sucks oh well....i was like no Im meeting these guys so asked security and more workers and me and fiancee and best bud tracked them down back area and ate with them. At first they were kinda standoffish though polite but when i asked Hvy Nate Jones if he still had bite marks from trials where Davaryll Williamson bit him they all perked up and were like wait you know about that and who we actually are ? I spouted off their names and actual scores from Olympic trials and they said what do you want pics ? Autographs / Anything you are a real fan. Floyd was so nice and down to earth back then despite having the most well know background. Zab Judah was there and said you dont know who I am Im not even on the team...I said "You are Zab Judah alternate because david Diaz upset you twice.....he looked laughed and said ill give you a $1,000 if you make him disappear in Shamu's whale tank (We all cracked up david including who was nearby). Only ones missing were Antonio Tarver who is from Orlando and was doing local press interviews and david Reid who was in trouble with domestic allegations.  We chatted some wrestling when they asked my background and Eric Morel even suggested me and Floyd grapple and roll since we were same weight, Floyd who had no wrestling at all said no way if he got hurt doing something like that he would get in huge trouble....I would have loved it.

Yeah I have always ranked Sugar Ray Robinson #1 myself, Chavez was a great fighter as well. I agree though that Taylor got screwed, that stoppage was terrible. I also liked Hector 'Macho' Camacho, he started out winning his first 30+ fights without a loss then Greg Haugen upset him, he later defeated Haugen in the rematch. Great story about Mayweather. I have Mayweather top 5 but not #1, his record though gives him a debate to being #1. Like you, I just don't think he ever fought anyone that stood out. He fought Pacman when Pac was past his prime unfortunately.

 

To me Roy Jones pound for pound was probably top 10 ever.

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 hours ago, Nesjan3 said:

This ^, nobody ever talks about the Browns of the 50s. The pre-Superbowl era seems to be forgotten all together for some reason. Otto is definitely among the best in the top 5 for sure. I wouldnt say 1 because it was a different game back then.

As I posted above, it is just tough to compare pre-SB era players/teams to SB era players/teams. Pre SB era it is a no brainer that Jim Brown was the greatest RB and player ever. Unitas played in both era's but Graham probably is the best QB pre-SB era with how much he won. 

 

I just have a hard time anyone telling me that Jim Brown was better than Emmitt Smith when Smith played against defenses that had LB's that were 6'3 240/250 pounds on average, D.Lineman that weighed 300 pounds on average, and Smith gained over 18,000 Rushing Yards (most ever) and scored the most rushing TD's in the history of the league. I am just not buying it. 

 

You almost have to have a list of pre-SB era players and another SB era players. Unlike boxing where someone in 1940 that weighed 210 pounds may be arguably the best ever (Joe Louis) because guys fight guys in their WT class.

[Lancer1]

12 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

As I posted above, it is just tough to compare pre-SB era players/teams to SB era players/teams. Pre SB era it is a no brainer that Jim Brown was the greatest RB and player ever. Unitas played in both era's but Graham probably is the best QB pre-SB era with how much he won. 

 

I just have a hard time anyone telling me that Jim Brown was better than Emmitt Smith when Smith played against defenses that had LB's that were 6'3 240/250 pounds on average, D.Lineman that weighed 300 pounds on average, and Smith gained over 18,000 Rushing Yards (most ever) and scored the most rushing TD's in the history of the league. I am just not buying it. 

 

You almost have to have a list of pre-SB era players and another SB era players. Unlike boxing where someone in 1940 that weighed 210 pounds may be arguably the best ever (Joe Louis) because guys fight guys in their WT class.

It's real tough to compare athletes from different eras, with the advances in nutrition, training & technology, people are getting bigger & bigger, and with the advances in rules to protect certain athletes,  medicine & rehabilitation, people can play longer and recover from injuries that would've ended their career just decades ago.

 

The largest guy on my high school football team (early 1980's) was a 6'3" 230 defensive end - nowadays that guy would be small for a linebacker, but on offense he could be a quarterback if he could throw, a tight end if he could catch, block or both and in some cases, even a running back but at that weight, it's doubtful that he would play on the line, either side.

[crazycolt1]

The thing about rating the QB position is taking into account the teams they played on. 

No matter how good a QB is he has to have good teams around him to be successful. 

Brady has the hardware but he has been on teams that were loaded with talent. 

Does Brady have more talent than lets say Marino or Montana? IMO, no. Take a guy like Dan Fouts. That dude could sling the football with the best of them. 

Bart Starr has 5 championships but no one even mentioned him.