Colts Pressure: Dead Last Both Sides

[Valpo2004]

On 11/29/2016 at 3:02 PM, PeterBowman said:

yep, constantly going for the big play hasn't helped. Especially when being blitzed. Shorter passes would help out tremendously. Honestly I'm not sure if it's the play calls or if that's just how Luck is wired and won't look short as often as he should if it's there.

 

It's both. . . Luck doesn't seem to like dumping it off.

 

On top of that you have to understand that the team is designed to stretch the field deep.  We don't have a top receiver who's known for a big catch radius or being able to box out other receivers and haul in the catch.

 

We have speeders. 

 

All of our receivers run 4.4 40's or better.  

 

Moncrief has decent size but he's not huge.  

 

And we don't exactly have a high level pass catching TE either.  Allen seems to drop every other ball.  Doyle is solid but he's not a great player.  

 

Team is designed to throw deep.  Sure the OL could use some improvement but they are made to look bad by our emphasis on the deep throws.

[Gabriel Alexander Morillo]

21 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Good heavens, save the melodrama.

 

I said 'quick hitters,' you said 'check downs and drag routes.' Two totally different things.

 

I didn't say tipped balls are 100% the line's fault, I said if you want to throw quick slants you need to cut the edge.

 

And I didn't say that Luck has no blame. I was very critical of Luck at the start of last season because he overlooked short receivers and held the ball too long. I'm not protecting Luck.

 

Reggie didn't injure his knee on a quick hitter, and Luck was being pressured when he threw the ball, resulting in it being short. Or -- let me play this like you would -- let's just never throw short passes because Luck sucks at them and once upon a time a 35 year old receiver tore his ACL adjusting to an off target pass, because no other QB has ever thrown an off target pass, short or otherwise...

 

I don't even understand how this is controversial. The OL struggles in pass protection, yet the Colts don't call slants or screens, and Luck's clock from snap to attempt is one of the longest in the league. This is with an OC who favors a passing scheme that, by design, attacks vertically first. This is all well documented. When your line struggles in pass pro, you scheme to help them. Our scheme hurts them. 

 

It's especially strange that someone who is so critical of the coaching staff is suddenly jumping to their defense, and on something that's so obvious...

You literally said, word for word " Another thing, tipped passes aren't the QBs fault...". If they're not Luck's fault at all then it's the dudes blocking for him obviously. They're not just faultless occurrence's, obviously. 
 

A drag route is a quick hitter play. It absolutely busts apart and exposes the soft spot in a zone for an easy, quick completion. Or it can be used to easily beat a man with the guys we have on our roster (All our sub 4.40 receivers). 

 

I think our line is terrible but I think that Luck holds onto the ball much too long and the coaches call godawful plays that take too long to develop. There are teams out there with worse Offensive Lines yet they don't give up the pressures or sacks that we do. To me that's a combo of a QB who hangs on to the ball too long and an O line that is used beyong their talent. 

 

"It's especially strange that someone who is so critical of the coaching staff is suddenly jumping to their defense, and on something that's so obvious..." I think that they have enough criticism from me and every other Colts fan in existence.  I'd rather talk about Luck in this thread if you don't mind. You like to say it's so obvious yet you're arguing against me. The simple fact is that Luck makes plenty of mistakes, that he is surrounded by a bad Oline and has an absolutely awful coaching staff around him. All are to blame. I personally think Luck is enough of a veteran that he should start changing things at the line to quick routes or timing routes, just put our guys in the best position to succeed. I don't buy any argument that claims he's not allowed to in this offense; I just don't think he's confident enough in his ability to do it. 

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, Valpo2004 said:

 

It's both. . . Luck doesn't seem to like dumping it off.

 

On top of that you have to understand that the team is designed to stretch the field deep.  We don't have a top receiver who's known for a big catch radius or being able to box out other receivers and haul in the catch.

 

We have speeders. 

 

All of our receivers run 4.4 40's or better.  

 

Moncrief has decent size but he's not huge.  

 

And we don't exactly have a high level pass catching TE either.  Allen seems to drop every other ball.  Doyle is solid but he's not a great player.  

 

Team is designed to throw deep.  Sure the OL could use some improvement but they are made to look bad by our emphasis on the deep throws.

You don't need size or physicality.  What a team needs for the short passing game are WRs who can freeze a DB with their route running, then have the QB hit them in the numbers when they are open that split second they make the cut.  If its a good throw, the WR keeps running.  If its not a good throw and the WR has to break stride to catch it, he gets tackled immediately, or the pass falls incomplete, or gets intercepted. 

 

Reggie Wayne made up for a lot of not good short throws.

 

This forum has consistently overrated the idea of a physical WR.  Which is why Nicks, AJ, Rodgers (the knucklehead), and Allen were/are praised more than they deserved.

 

But, I agree with your overall point. Our WRs skills are more suited to a vertical game than the short game, at this time.

 

 

[DougDew]

42 minutes ago, Gabriel Alexander Morillo said:

 I personally think Luck is enough of a veteran that he should start changing things at the line to quick routes or timing routes, just put our guys in the best position to succeed. I don't buy any argument that claims he's not allowed to in this offense; I just don't think he's confident enough in his ability to do it. 

Agreed.

 

He, himself, needs to believe that the short passing game will help the O.  If he did, he carries enough weight in the organization that he could demand this adjustment.

 

This isn't high school football where the coach will bench the QB.  Pagano won't start Tolzien if Luck starts taking charge more. 

 

The oline and receivers need to be coached, so you he can't just start calling plays the team hasn't practiced, but he can assert his status as the $100 million QB, and these patterns can be installed and practiced more...if he would speak up.

 

However, maybe he believes in the vertical passing game and is fine with the play calling.

 

 

[Gabriel Alexander Morillo]

22 minutes ago, DougDew said:

You don't need size or physicality.  What a team needs for the short passing game are WRs who can freeze a DB with their route running, then have the QB hit them in the numbers when they are open that split second they make the cut.  If its a good throw, the WR keeps running.  If its not a good throw and the WR has to break stride to catch it, he gets tackled immediately, or the pass falls incomplete, or gets intercepted. 

 

Reggie Wayne made up for a lot of not good short throws.

 

This forum has consistently overrated the idea of a physical WR.  Which is why Nicks, AJ, Rodgers (the knucklehead), and Allen were/are praised more than they deserved.

 

But, I agree with your overall point. Our WRs skills are more suited to a vertical game than the short game, at this time.

 

 

Lol seriosuly. Perfect post. Those two Patriots guys, Amendola and Edelman with their 6'5 frame, 12 foot catching radius and 40" verticals. Absolute monsters!

[Superman]

10 minutes ago, Gabriel Alexander Morillo said:

You literally said, word for word " Another thing, tipped passes aren't the QBs fault...". If they're not Luck's fault at all then it's the dudes blocking for him obviously. They're not just faultless occurrence's, obviously.

 

Only the QB and OL are in play? No. I've said repeatedly in this thread that tipped passes, specifically on slants and screens, are mostly due to failure to cut block the edge. It's a scheme failure, IMO.

 

Quote

A drag route is a quick hitter play. It absolutely busts apart and exposes the soft spot in a zone for an easy, quick completion. Or it can be used to easily beat a man with the guys we have on our roster (All our sub 4.40 receivers). 

 

Not necessarily a quick hitter. As a matter of fact, receivers running drag routes sometimes don't come open until they clear the middle of the field. Sometimes the release is delayed because it's a part of a stacked formation. 

 

Quote

I think our line is terrible but I think that Luck holds onto the ball much too long and the coaches call godawful plays that take too long to develop. There are teams out there with worse Offensive Lines yet they don't give up the pressures or sacks that we do. To me that's a combo of a QB who hangs on to the ball too long and an O line that is used beyong their talent. 

 

I've been saying all of that in this thread. Yes, I've been focused more on what I think our coaching failures, but I'm pretty sure I've stated several times that the line isn't good, and that the QB hold the ball longer than a lot of good QBs. We agree on everything in that paragraph.

 

Quote

"It's especially strange that someone who is so critical of the coaching staff is suddenly jumping to their defense, and on something that's so obvious..." I think that they have enough criticism from me and every other Colts fan in existence. I'd rather talk about Luck in this thread if you don't mind.

 

That's fine, anyone can talk about anything they want in this thread, of course. But you were making it seem like it's an either/or issue. To me, the primary problem is the play calling / gameplans, that doesn't mean I think Luck is perfect. But about Luck...

 

Quote

You like to say it's so obvious yet you're arguing against me. The simple fact is that Luck makes plenty of mistakes, that he is surrounded by a bad Oline and has an absolutely awful coaching staff around him. All are to blame. I personally think Luck is enough of a veteran that he should start changing things at the line to quick routes or timing routes, just put our guys in the best position to succeed. I don't buy any argument that claims he's not allowed to in this offense; I just don't think he's confident enough in his ability to do it. 

 

I mostly agree with this, but I have a major issue with the bolded. My inference is that a lot of us, especially Colts fans, are used to watching veteran QBing mixed with really good coaching, and compare Luck to a very high standard. Not just Manning, but all of the really elite QBs over the last decade. They all take more command at the line of scrimmage than Luck seems to do, especially outside of no-huddle / hurry up situations. Luck came in advanced, and he has plenty of experience at this point, but he's not at that level, yet.

 

It's hard for me to take issue with Luck's role in the structure of the offense, because A) he's never been in an offense that emphasizes quick passing, so I don't see how we can assume that he isn't comfortable with it; and B) we don't know what kind of authority Luck has, where the coaches' decision making ends and his begins, whether he's restricted from changing plays at certain times, etc. We do know that this coaching staff trends toward the conservative, so it wouldn't surprise me if Luck has less authority than most of us think he should.

 

So I have been pushing back against the suggestion that Luck is the reason the passing attack doesn't utilize quick concepts as often as I think it should, because to me, the long developing and vertical aspects of this offense are included by design. I also think part of the coaching staff's job is to actually coach, and that means helping players develop skills that they need to be successful, especially the most talented and most critically important players on the team. If they're shying away from shortened passing concepts because they think Luck isn't good at them, they're failing him and themselves. 

 

As it is, they're failing anyway, but I don't think it's because they don't believe in Luck. I think it's probably because they believe in him too much.

 

/rant

[NewColtsFan]

5 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Only the QB and OL are in play? No. I've said repeatedly in this thread that tipped passes, specifically on slants and screens, are mostly due to failure to cut block the edge. It's a scheme failure, IMO.

 

 

 

Superman.......

 

As you know,  Luck has had 3 OC's...   Arians, Hamilton and now Chud....     and with all three,  I've gotten the sense that annually, he's among the league leaders in having his passes tipped at the LOS.     So, if it's a scheme thing,   all three OC's have been part of the problem.

 

Honestly, Luck at 6'4" and he throws overhand, I've never seen a QB have so many passes tipped.    It drives me absolutely crazy.      Where are the lanes to throw through?      I don't have stats and perhaps I'm wrong,  but it's astonishing to me how many passes he has tipped.

 

I'd love to know why that's been this way....     is it a scheme thing,  or is it a Luck thing?

 

And if it's Andrew,  I wish we'd do something to break that habit......

 

(Apologies for the rant!)

 

[Superman]

On 12/1/2016 at 8:11 AM, Somewhere ovr the Waynebow said:

The thing is,  I feel like they have gotten LESS creative with him over time (not that they were ever that creative to begin with).  In the preseason we saw him used on bubble screens,  and even last year they put him in the back field and had him receive some tosses.  And I don't understand why that went away.  If they are convinced so stay with the wildcat, stick him back there and let him take a hand off.  

 

I'm not necessarily saying he'd be ultra successful on these plays,  but in my eyes he's a unique athlete and you need to get it in his hands.  

 

Following the "less creativity" rabbit hole,  they even threw quick hitters in preseason and let guys like Moncrief make plays after the short catch.  I know he was hurt but where has this type of thing gone? This offense is truly mind boggling and it doesn't feel like even game plan week to week as much as they should.  It's like they stick with "their offense"  because they are convinced it will work against everyone.  

 

Tyler Lockett just exploded for a TD on an end around.

[Superman]

On 12/1/2016 at 5:13 PM, NewColtsFan said:

 

Superman.......

 

As you know,  Luck has had 3 OC's...   Arians, Hamilton and now Chud....     and with all three,  I've gotten the sense that annually, he's among the league leaders in having his passes tipped at the LOS.     So, if it's a scheme thing,   all three OC's have been part of the problem.

 

Honestly, Luck at 6'4" and he throws overhand, I've never seen a QB have so many passes tipped.    It drives me absolutely crazy.      Where are the lanes to throw through?      I don't have stats and perhaps I'm wrong,  but it's astonishing to me how many passes he has tipped.

 

I'd love to know why that's been this way....     is it a scheme thing,  or is it a Luck thing?

 

And if it's Andrew,  I wish we'd do something to break that habit......

 

(Apologies for the rant!)

 

 

On slants and screens, the Colts don't cut block. That leads to some tips.

 

And in general, the interior OL has been poor for most of the last 4+ years, so there's a lot of interior penetration. Blockers get pushed back into the QB's face, they struggle with inside stunts, and they miss inside blitzers. 

 

I don't think it's a Luck thing, at least not with his throwing mechanics. Besides getting rid of the ball faster -- which I definitely think he needs to do in general -- I don't think there's anything Luck should be doing differently to reduce the tips.

 

Schematically, they should get Luck out of the pocket a little more. 

[DougDew]

9 hours ago, Superman said:

 

On slants and screens, the Colts don't cut block. That leads to some tips.

 

And in general, the interior OL has been poor for most of the last 4+ years, so there's a lot of interior penetration. Blockers get pushed back into the QB's face, they struggle with inside stunts, and they miss inside blitzers. 

 

I don't think it's a Luck thing, at least not with his throwing mechanics. Besides getting rid of the ball faster -- which I definitely think he needs to do in general -- I don't think there's anything Luck should be doing differently to reduce the tips.

 

Schematically, they should get Luck out of the pocket a little more. 

I think getting rid of the ball slower is partially related to mechanics.  I don't think its an arm thing, per se, I think Luck needs (or wants) to have his feet and hips planted and pointed in the right direction before throwing, and seems to have maybe average body flexibility compared to some of the elite QBs.  He is built more like a MIKE than most QBs

 

When compared to Aaron Rogers  (a high standard) for discussion purposes,  Rogers can seem to dance, pivot, move, and then throw in the time it takes Luck to drop back, point, then step into his throws.  The rush tends to disrupt the pocket and Luck takes a bit more time to adjust and get set to throw the ball.  We're talking fractions of seconds here, but I think Luck's relative average body flexibility contributes to the slow snap to throw time. 

 

In baseball terms, Rogers is a shortstop, who can make strong accurate throws by getting quickly into throwing position after being out of position.  He's a rubbery, flexible guy.  Luck is more like a right fielder who needs to get pointed and more deliberately step into his throws.   Just food for thought.

 

And compared to more pocket throwers like Brady and Manning, Brady and Manning are simply quicker decision makers and more accurate.

 

[Somewhere ovr the Waynebow]

9 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Tyler Lockett just exploded for a TD on an end around.

Lockett in the third looks much better than Dorsett in the first at the moment. Still feel Dorsett has a higher ceiling.  

[Superman]

5 hours ago, Somewhere ovr the Waynebow said:

Lockett in the third looks much better than Dorsett in the first at the moment. Still feel Dorsett has a higher ceiling.  

 

Lockett was one of my favorite players in that draft, I've always thought he was a better value than Dorsett. We could have nailed that draft if it were Kendricks, Lockett, Anderson... we still probably wouldn't be using Lockett correctly, but he's an outstanding return man so he'd probably be producing more than Dorsett anyway. 

 

By the way, I think Dorsett has return traits, but every time he's out there he muffs it, so he'll probably never get another shot, unless everyone ahead of him gets hurt all of a sudden. 

[Superman]

5 hours ago, DougDew said:

I think getting rid of the ball slower is partially related to mechanics.  I don't think its an arm thing, per se, I think Luck needs (or wants) to have his feet and hips planted and pointed in the right direction before throwing, and seems to have maybe average body flexibility compared to some of the elite QBs.  He is built more like a MIKE than most QBs

 

When compared to Aaron Rogers  (a high standard) for discussion purposes,  Rogers can seem to dance, pivot, move, and then throw in the time it takes Luck to drop back, point, then step into his throws.  The rush tends to disrupt the pocket and Luck takes a bit more time to adjust and get set to throw the ball.  We're talking fractions of seconds here, but I think Luck's relative average body flexibility contributes to the slow snap to throw time. 

 

In baseball terms, Rogers is a shortstop, who can make strong accurate throws by getting quickly into throwing position after being out of position.  He's a rubbery, flexible guy.  Luck is more like a right fielder who needs to get pointed and more deliberately step into his throws.   Just food for thought.

 

And compared to more pocket throwers like Brady and Manning, Brady and Manning are simply quicker decision makers and more accurate.

 

 

Aaron Rodgers has changed his mechanics quite a bit over his career. http://thesidelineview.com/columns/nfl/can-quarterbacks-mechanics-be-altered

 

So has Tom Brady. Manning made more minor adjustments, but adjustments nonetheless. 

 

You're comparing refined, veteran QBs to a younger QB who probably hasn't received the kind of technical coaching that he needs -- the refinement those other guys received, especially early in their careers. I think this kind of comparison is a mistake. Brady in Year 5 wasn't the quick throwing, accurate passer he is now. His footwork seems to get better every year.

 

But more specific than that, and getting back to scheme, a QB's footwork is tied to his progressions. The Colts' offense has featured long developing passing concepts since Day 1. I said earlier -- maybe in another thread -- that Luck's footwork in the pocket seems sluggish at times. That's especially true when compared to the all time greats you're talking about. But his footwork still matches the scheme. If you watch any coaches' film and pay attention to his progressions in relation to his footwork, you'll see what I'm talking about. There are times where his quickens his footwork, but that's on the rare quick hitters.

 

So put him in an offense that features quicker passing concepts, and let's see what his footwork looks like. This is why, while I'm not exactly a strict WCO proponent, I am somewhat partial to it, because it requires precise footwork, timing, rhythm from the QB. If there's anything mechanical slowing the QB's delivery, the coaches are expected to work those kinks out. Instead, the Colts keep hiring Coryell coaches -- Arians, Chud, Schottenheimer... People think that if Chud left, Philbin would be the next OC, but I'm pretty sure it would be Schottenheimer, the Coryell guy, not Philbin, the WCO guy. 

 

Another tidbit on Rodgers:

http://archive.jsonline.com/sports/packers/star-pupil-aaron-rodgers-college-coach-has-seen-qbs-game-evolve-b9992257z1-222767991.html 
 

Quote

 

Rodgers always had powerful legs and hips, which is another physical attribute that plays into the velocity and accuracy of his throws. One of the specific things he sees that Rodgers has developed in the pros is a tapping of his right foot while waiting for a route to open up.

Tedford said that most quarterbacks take a hitch step when they're trying to buy a second in the pocket, but Rodgers just taps his foot like a second baseman tagging the bag on a double play. The advantage is that he doesn't lose any opportunity to uncork the ball.

"What I've seen him do on the goal line, he'll hit that back foot rather than gathering with both of them," he said. "It's just an extra timing step for him to wait just one more little beat. So not a full beat that it might take a hitch, just a fraction of a second. You don't see too many people do it."

What Tedford sees the most in the advancement of Rodgers' game is his timing in McCarthy's offense. Of course, McCarthy and quarterbacks coach Tom Clements brought his back elbow down a lot and the ball down some, but he said it's obvious the coaches have worked with him on the timing aspect of each play.

He knows how long he has to get the ball to a specific receiver running a certain route and how long he has before he can go somewhere else.

"They've done a really nice job with him, his understanding of the game," Tedford said. "It doesn't happen by mistake. I know Aaron is a student of the game, but he has got great tutelage there.

"What I think they've done with him, he's always been pretty good in the pocket, but I'm really impressed with his pace in the pocket and his poise and his feet. It seems like he's always on rhythm."

 

 

TL;DR, I don't think Luck has physical issues that restrict the development of his mechanics. I think he needs better coaching, and while that would probably include some refinement of his mechanics, especially his footwork, I don't think it's anything he won't be able to do. 

[aaron11]

the browns have given up more sacks now lol

[JPPT1974]

No wonder the Browns are winless at 0-12 fixing to tie the record for the Lions in 2008.

[Somewhere ovr the Waynebow]

18 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Lockett was one of my favorite players in that draft, I've always thought he was a better value than Dorsett. We could have nailed that draft if it were Kendricks, Lockett, Anderson... we still probably wouldn't be using Lockett correctly, but he's an outstanding return man so he'd probably be producing more than Dorsett anyway. 

 

By the way, I think Dorsett has return traits, but every time he's out there he muffs it, so he'll probably never get another shot, unless everyone ahead of him gets hurt all of a sudden. 

They must have been reading our conversation; they used Dorsett out of the back field for one play last night.  

 

I'll reserve judgment until I see the all 22 but that looked like a great plan on offense.  Did a good number of quick hitters and when they did go deep,  there was a lot of play action to help Luck have that extra half a second in the pocket.  That's what I've been waiting for all year.