Both SB Teams Clueless On Second Down

[BloodyChamp]

Do you actually believe the drivel you post? I couldn't even read anymore after "Bill knew exactly what he was doing."

[-JJ-]

BB said on WEEI on the timeout. He thought about it. Saw the package they had out there. Thought he should, maybe it would have been better in case they did score but decided to go with the flow with what was transpiring.

 

However that pass play was defended several times by Butler including Friday practice. He did blow it and was told by BB do not do that again. Do your job.

 

Butler went to Browner just before the play (you can see in the video above I posted) to get on the same page. Butler just read Wilson's eyes and knew the pass play was on. He was simply prepared for that play and didn't mess it up that time.\ 

 

OTOH if Seattle executes that play 1% better they make it.

[-JJ-]

Do you actually believe the drivel you post? I couldn't even read anymore after "Bill knew exactly what he was doing."

He knew what he was doing with the package when he saw what the offense had. 8 men stacked against 6 in the box for the run with Wilson being spied and the corners on the WR's.

The time out was not planned in advance as I just mentioned.

 

So if its a run he had it covered with the package he had out there and if Pass he had that covered. They just had to execute flawless.

 

Did we get lucky? of course. Thousand's of games have that. There is still 59 minutes that had to be played to get to that point. Was it luck because how the ball moves, no- that would be the Kearse catch.

 

That's BB's mantra. Play the 60 minutes to have the right to make a key play or two late in the 4th qtr,

This was just the last play is all.

[Malakai432]

There was 1:02 on the clock when Lynch was stopped at the 1 yard line. Plenty of time to run the ball 3 times considering the time out Seattle had left. They used 40 seconds before snapping the ball for that poorly ran play. That was horrible clock management followed by faulty play calling and bad execution. 

 

That said with 1:02 left on the clock , how does BB not use his time outs to give Brady enough time to tie the game if Seattle scored. He can't possibly figure they would stop Seattle. Fact is NE was about the worst (statically)  in the NFl in goal line situations. Not saying he's not the best coach in the business but he was pretty lucky Seattle brain farted away more than half the clock lining up for that play.

 

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000467976/article/why-did-seahawks-take-so-long-before-second-down

 

I noticed that because the commentators discussed for an eternity if BB was going to call a timeout while Seattle was setting up the play that concluded their demise.  I was thinking it was taking Seattle ages to set up the play.  I was kind of thinking to myself, just set up a quick run play and smash it in on 2nd, if all else failed, take a timeout on third, rinse and repeat.  Lynch gained 4x yards on first and there was plenty of time left to set up multiple run plays/or option w Wilson, especially with a timeout left.

 

One of the rationale for BB not using the TO was that he thought Seattle looked discombobulated, hypothetical ofc from the NFL network.  It seems to me like they were as well.  It seemed like they had a tough time figuring out what they were trying to do, they seemed to take too much time then produced a frantic garbage play that resulted in an INT.  Now that being said, it took a miracle for Seattle to lose that game.  Even though it was a quick pass there was an incredibly small chance of that ball being intercepted unless all things happened perfectly. 

[Bones_Jones]

There was 1:02 on the clock when Lynch was stopped at the 1 yard line. Plenty of time to run the ball 3 times considering the time out Seattle had left. They used 40 seconds before snapping the ball for that poorly ran play. That was horrible clock management followed by faulty play calling and bad execution. 

 

That said with 1:02 left on the clock , how does BB not use his time outs to give Brady enough time to tie the game if Seattle scored. He can't possibly figure they would stop Seattle. Fact is NE was about the worst (statically)  in the NFl in goal line situations. Not saying he's not the best coach in the business but he was pretty lucky Seattle brain farted away more than half the clock lining up for that play.

 

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000467976/article/why-did-seahawks-take-so-long-before-second-down

 

 

bill simmons has a good theory on this.   BB does what BB does.  he is the GOAT of coaching for a reason.   he trusted his D, and he created a chaos for hawks & caroll.   it's brilliant. 

[BloodyChamp]

I don't care what any of them say. Pete Carroll is going to say on The Today Show in a few hours that he doesn't regret that call. Do you believe that too?

[-JJ-]

I noticed that because the commentators discussed for an eternity if BB was going to call a timeout while Seattle was setting up the play that concluded their demise.  I was thinking it was taking Seattle ages to set up the play.  I was kind of thinking to myself, just set up a quick run play and smash it in on 2nd, if all else failed, take a timeout on third, rinse and repeat.  Lynch gained 4x yards on first and there was plenty of time left to set up multiple run plays/or option w Wilson, especially with a timeout left.

 

One of the rationale for BB not using the TO was that he thought Seattle looked discombobulated, hypothetical ofc from the NFL network.  It seems to me like they were as well.  It seemed like they had a tough time figuring out what they were trying to do, they seemed to take too much time then produced a frantic garbage play that resulted in an INT.  Now that being said, it took a miracle for Seattle to lose that game.  Even though it was a quick pass there was an incredibly small chance of that ball being intercepted unless all things happened perfectly. 

There is a difference in a 4yd run from the 5 and 1 TD run from 1yd. Add Lynch was 1-5 in that situation this year. Doesn't mean you wouldn't try it- just sayin'  there is a difference when the D knows you need just one yard.  All in all I suppose you could say Seattle's demise started long before with the clock management.

 

Not a gimme to score with a long field with the time left so the miracle catch did help. So maybe they had their luck and we had ours.

 

In the end that's football and coaching is part of the game. Clearly not the first time. This one was just magnified.

 

But your right on the quick pass. 1% better execution and they make it.

 

A game of inches in so many ways

 

Lol- watching BB in practice on SX sounds spraying a water bottle on the ball expecting rain for the game.

[amfootball]

I don't care what any of them say. Pete Carroll is going to say on The Today Show in a few hours that he doesn't regret that call. Do you believe that too?

I do believe Carroll does not regret the call. I think when you get to his position and have a ring in hand you trust your instincts in that situation. If the play was executed better with Wilson perhaps just throwing it away then we are not having this discussion. Plus, Carroll is not the type to really ever admit fault. Too much ego there like most HCs.

[Bad Morty]

Do you actually believe the drivel you post? I couldn't even read anymore after "Bill knew exactly what he was doing."

Yeah - it's hard to believe a guy with 40 years of experience and 6 super bowl rings knew what he was doing. Eyeroll.

[oldunclemark]

There should have been no issue whats so ever with Seattle having enough time to score a TD. It was only hideous clock management that made it an issue. So I guess I say ...

 

Wrong... Seattle had 1 minute and 2 seconds and a TO to go a yard. I mean don't be sucked into that BB genius stuff on that one. Only a pure * would run the full 40 seconds off the clock and make BB right and time and issue.

[/quote

There is a difference between a 3 and 4 point defcit...which you have to appreciate

Calling time out (by NE) after 2nd down would have given Seattle time to run whatever plays they wanted..

since the Hawks then would have had 2 time outs left..

and 3 downs to go..

as it was Seattle could not run the clock down because they needed 4 points, not 3..

Bad snap, false start, tipped ball....can blow up a team that's down 4..and needs a TD

If you're down three...you wont throw and a bad snap or false start does not beat you. See?

There's a tendency to call coaches *s or geniuses...in this case, Belichick is neither. He just played it correctly.

NE played it correctly, not because of how it turned out but because of the situation.

Seattle's play calling tree (coach, OC and QB) made the worst possible call under pressure...

[lollygagger8]

I agree...it's the 6 SB rings he has along with this 15 year run of dominance in New England that makes him a genius.

 

Lol, I see you are cherry picking my posts. 

 

Seabirds handed the NE Cheaters the SB. Besides the fact this SB win will forever have a deflated asterisk next to it. 

 

Sounds genius to me. 

[ViriLudant]

Lol, I see you are cherry picking my posts.

Seabirds handed the NE Cheaters the SB. Besides the fact this SB win will forever have a deflated asterisk next to it.

Sounds genius to me.

I love when people claim things to be fact when nothing has come out at all.

Nothing .

The nonsense that you claim to be fact has already been overridden, but you still believe it to be true.

[Bad Morty]

Besides the fact this SB win will forever have a deflated asterisk next to it. 

 

 

uh, no it won't. I do love how people lose their minds over the Patriots winning though...It's almost as fun as the winning itself.

[AndreRison]

The only explanation is Bill Belichick knew the Seahawks plays before it happened. I find it hard to believe Butler knew the ball was going to Lockette on a slant from intuition.

Remember the Seahawks had only been in that formation 4 times all year in that area of the field, and I guarantee they didn't throw the slant every time.

The Patriots stole the Seahawks game plan by cheating, and the rest is history.

[ViriLudant]

The hatred is strong in this one.

[Bad Morty]

The only explanation is Bill Belichick knew the Seahawks plays before it happened. I find it hard to believe Butler knew the ball was going to Lockette on a slant from intuition.

Remember the Seahawks had only been in that formation 4 times all year in that area of the field, and I guarantee they didn't throw the slant every time.

The Patriots stole the Seahawks game plan by cheating, and the rest is history.

[SouthernCal]

Dumb play by Seattle

[lollygagger8]

I love when people claim things to be fact when nothing has come out at all.

Nothing .

The nonsense that you claim to be fact has already been overridden, but you still believe it to be true.

 

 

 

 

uh, no it won't. I do love how people lose their minds over the Patriots winning though...It's almost as fun as the winning itself.

 

 

 

 

I think it's funny that Pats fans have so much time on their hands that they come over to Colts forums. Do you have a Seabirds Forum account too??  Lol, so sad. 

 

For your troubles, I'll have to ebay a bottle of this for you and send it your way: 

 

[SouthernCal]

I think it's funny that Pats fans have so much time on their hands that they come over to Colts forums. Do you have a Seabirds Forum account too?? Lol, so sad.

For your troubles, I'll have to ebay a bottle of this for you and send it your way:

I'm starting to think they're colts fans.

[Bad Morty]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think it's funny that Pats fans have so much time on their hands that they come over to Colts forums. Do you have a Seabirds Forum account too??  Lol, so sad. 

 

For your troubles, I'll have to ebay a bottle of this for you and send it your way: 

 

 

Seahawks fans aren't as fun...they seem to accept the fact that they lost to a better team and they don't look for excuses. That's kind of dull.

[SouthernCal]

seems false to me

edit: did you just admit that you are a troll? not calling you one though

[lollygagger8]

Seahawks fans aren't as fun...they seem to accept the fact that they lost to a better team and they don't look for excuses. That's kind of dull.

 

LOL. That's pathetic you guys waste your time on other team's forums. 

[BloodyChamp]

Yeah - it's hard to believe a guy with 40 years of experience and 6 super bowl rings knew what he was doing. Eyeroll.

To the point that he planned on letting Seattle get to the 1 so that he could intercept Wilson? Come on man...

[BloodyChamp]

I do believe Carroll does not regret the call. I think when you get to his position and have a ring in hand you trust your instincts in that situation. If the play was executed better with Wilson perhaps just throwing it away then we are not having this discussion. Plus, Carroll is not the type to really ever admit fault. Too much ego there like most HCs.

I don't buy anything other than it being the worst call ever. Rationalize it and try to find an idea behind it to make it a good call from any point of view but you'll never be able to. They just effed up royally and it resulted in a break for NE.

[Bad Morty]

To the point that he planned on letting Seattle get to the 1 so that he could intercept Wilson? Come on man...

Did anyone suggest that he drew it up knowing that they'd get an INT? Of course not. The question is, did he fall asleep at the wheel and not use his timeouts or did he intentionally not use his timeouts. If you think that not using the timeouts was a brain-fart on his part, you couldn't be more wrong. He had 2 paths he could have taken to try to win that game:

 

1) Let them score, then try to tie it with the time remaining and win it in OT, OR

 

2) Try to win it on D by trying to stop them from scoring

 

He (correctly imo) felt that door #2 was the better option of 2 admittedly low probability options. Once you decide you are going to try to win it by stopping them, then the absolute last think you want to do is stop the clock. Let them run it down as far as they want...that's on Pete. By being terrible at clock management, he narrowed down the Seahawks' offensive options and therefore conversely improved the Pats' chance of defending them. That's all anyone is saying.

[Bad Morty]

I don't buy anything other than it being the worst call ever. Rationalize it and try to find an idea behind it to make it a good call from any point of view but you'll never be able to. They just effed up royally and it resulted in a break for NE.

 

lol...I have no issue with that. Breaks are part of the game. The Pats lost a perfect season due to bad luck. This time they got some good luck. It all evens out the more you get there.

[amfootball]

I don't buy anything other than it being the worst call ever. Rationalize it and try to find an idea behind it to make it a good call from any point of view but you'll never be able to. They just effed up royally and it resulted in a break for NE.

You asked about how Carroll feels. I don't think he feels like it was a bad call. He has said anything but.

[BloodyChamp]

Did anyone suggest that he drew it up knowing that they'd get an INT? Of course not. The question is, did he fall asleep at the wheel and not use his timeouts or did he intentionally not use his timeouts. If you think that not using the timeouts was a brain-fart on his part, you couldn't be more wrong. He had 2 paths he could have taken to try to win that game:

1) Let them score, then try to tie it with the time remaining and win it in OT, OR

2) Try to win it on D by trying to stop them from scoring

He (correctly imo) felt that door #2 was the better option of 2 admittedly low probability options. Once you decide you are going to try to win it by stopping them, then the absolute last think you want to do is stop the clock. Let them run it down as far as they want...that's on Pete. By being terrible at clock management, he narrowed down the Seahawks' offensive options and therefore conversely improved the Pats' chance of defending them. That's all anyone is saying.

See ^^^^^^ even in a attempt to meet halfway you end up implying that that was exactly how it was all drew up because Bill does no wrong.

[dw49]

Here's a great read on the final drive and key points in the game. I say great as it kind of backs up what I said Carroll was wrong throwing a pass and BB probably didn't really know what he wanted to do on second down as far as a TO or letting the clock run. It's pretty long and you can kind of pick and choose as to what you want to read.

 

 

 

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/super-bowl-new-england-patriots-seattle-seahawks/

[BloodyChamp]

You asked about how Carroll feels. I don't think he feels like it was a bad call. He has said anything but.

That was my original point. He'll never say anything but...maybe he will in 30 years on some NFL Films thing like the player who finally admitted that he flung the ball forward on The Holy Roller play that was called a fumble but until then he's going to lie through his teeth (not that I blame him).

[amfootball]

That was my original point. He'll never say anything but...maybe he will in 30 years on some NFL Films thing like the player who finally admitted that he flung the ball forward on The Holy Roller play that was called a fumble but until then he's going to lie through his teeth (not that I blame him).

I agree. If he admits that he did not have faith in the call then he may lose his locker room for next season.

[Bad Morty]

See ^^^^^^ even in a attempt to meet halfway you end up implying that that was exactly how it was all drew up because Bill does no wrong.

 

You are reading WAY more into it than is really there. The odds of the game turning out in the Patriots favor given the situation were certainly below 50/50 no matter what option he took (letting them score or trying to defend). So it is a GIVEN that luck went their way. That's an entirely different argument than "did Bill know what he was doing or not". In other words, the outcome doesn't always correlate with whether or not the coach had a strategy or not. The Pats could have put their punt return team on the field by mistake, and Wilson could have tripped and fallen on the handoff and the Pats recovered. In that case, the Pats would have won AND their coaches didn't know what they were doing.

 

So again - all anybody is saying here is that Bill had a strategy, he knew what he was doing, and it just happened to work out probably even better than he had hoped.

[amfootball]

Here's a great read on the final drive and key points in the game. I say great as it kind of backs up what I said Carroll was wrong throwing a pass and BB probably didn't really know what he wanted to do on second down as far as a TO or letting the clock run. It's pretty long and you can kind of pick and choose as to what you want to read.

 

 

 

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/super-bowl-new-england-patriots-seattle-seahawks/

Great stuff. Thanks for posting. That will be the most analyzed SB play forever. It is amazing to think that the Pats chances went from 12 percent of winning on second down to 99 percent once Butler made the pick. No bigger swing ever in the SB.

[dw49]

You are reading WAY more into it than is really there. The odds of the game turning out in the Patriots favor given the situation were certainly below 50/50 no matter what option he took (letting them score or trying to defend). So it is a GIVEN that luck went their way. That's an entirely different argument than "did Bill know what he was doing or not". In other words, the outcome doesn't always correlate with whether or not the coach had a strategy or not. The Pats could have put their punt return team on the field by mistake, and Wilson could have tripped and fallen on the handoff and the Pats recovered. In that case, the Pats would have won AND their coaches didn't know what they were doing.

 

So again - all anybody is saying here is that Bill had a strategy, he knew what he was doing, and it just happened to work out probably even better than he had hoped.

 

 

What I meant by that is I believe he expected Seattle to run the play off quickly and never expected them to run over 40 seconds off the clock. I really do think if someone said Carroll would let the clock run down to 26 seconds , BB probably would have called a TO. But take a few minutes and read the article.

[dw49]

Great stuff. Thanks for posting. That will be the most analyzed SB play forever. It is amazing to think that the Pats chances went from 12 percent of winning on second down to 99 percent once Butler made the pick. No bigger swing ever in the SB.

 

 

Yeah and points out he (Butler) was playing as Arrington was stinking up the joint. Also shows what a great play Hightower made stopping Lynch at the goal line. However , Brady would have had over a minute and 2 time outs left so that wouldn't have meant the game if Lynch scored on that play. Anyway , that was a really good insightful article . It was right on . Said the pass play was probably not the right call but not horrible. 

[Bad Morty]

What I meant by that is I believe he expected Seattle to run the play off quickly and never expected them to run over 40 seconds off the clock. I really do think if someone said Carroll would let the clock run down to 26 seconds , BB probably would have called a TO. But take a few minutes and read the article.

I read that article, and it's a great one. And this is really a tremendous thing to discuss for everyone other than Seattle fans. I am of the opposite opinion here. I think if Bill knew for sure that Carroll was going to take that much time, any thought he might have had about using a timeout would have been thrown out the window. All you need to do is compare the options Pete would have had if Bill had used a timeout as soon as Lynch was down to what they ended up being. Pete would have been looking at 2nd and goal from the 1 with around a minute left, the clock stopped, and still one timeout, right? So in that situation, they can huddle up on the sideline before the 2nd down play and think about the entire sequence down there, not just one play. They can draw up a full 3-play strategy. That's one huge thing they didn't have the way it worked out. So now on 2nd down, they can run and not have to use their last timeout...meaning that if they don't get in on 2nd down, then their 3rd down play can also be a run because they would still have that timeout available. So in other words, a Bill timeout would have given them 3 chances (if needed) to come to the line with everything available to them, run or pass and the clock not a factor.

 

When they scrambled around confused as the clock ticked down to 26 seconds before the 2nd down snap, their options got much more limited. It is a fact that if they were going to have any hope whatsoever of having 3 plays available to them, they HAD to pass it either on 2nd down or 3rd.

 

So my view on it is that by keeping the timeouts in his pocket, Bill effectively deprived them of a play. Instead of having 3 chances to punch it in after the Lynch run, they really only had 2, and they made it easier for the Pats to guess that they were passing given the clock situation.

[dw49]

I read that article, and it's a great one. And this is really a tremendous thing to discuss for everyone other than Seattle fans. I am of the opposite opinion here. I think if Bill knew for sure that Carroll was going to take that much time, any thought he might have had about using a timeout would have been thrown out the window. All you need to do is compare the options Pete would have had if Bill had used a timeout as soon as Lynch was down to what they ended up being. Pete would have been looking at 2nd and goal from the 1 with around a minute left, the clock stopped, and still one timeout, right? So in that situation, they can huddle up on the sideline before the 2nd down play and think about the entire sequence down there, not just one play. They can draw up a full 3-play strategy. That's one huge thing they didn't have the way it worked out. So now on 2nd down, they can run and not have to use their last timeout...meaning that if they don't get in on 2nd down, then their 3rd down play can also be a run because they would still have that timeout available. So in other words, a Bill timeout would have given them 3 chances (if needed) to come to the line with everything available to them, run or pass and the clock not a factor.

 

When they scrambled around confused as the clock ticked down to 26 seconds before the 2nd down snap, their options got much more limited. It is a fact that if they were going to have any hope whatsoever of having 3 plays available to them, they HAD to pass it either on 2nd down or 3rd.

 

So my view on it is that by keeping the timeouts in his pocket, Bill effectively deprived them of a play. Instead of having 3 chances to punch it in after the Lynch run, they really only had 2, and they made it easier for the Pats to guess that they were passing given the clock situation.

 

 

Could be.. who really knows. If Seattle scores , everyone would have been screaming for BB's noggin. Worked out stinky for Seattle and nice for NE .. that we all can agree on.

[amfootball]

Could be.. who really knows. If Seattle scores , everyone would have been screaming for BB's noggin. Worked out stinky for Seattle and nice for NE .. that we all can agree on.

You know Dw, I am sooo happy it turned out the way it did. Not sure if I could have taken anymore hate directed at the Pats. And you are right Bill would have roasted.

[BloodyChamp]

You are reading WAY more into it than is really there. The odds of the game turning out in the Patriots favor given the situation were certainly below 50/50 no matter what option he took (letting them score or trying to defend). So it is a GIVEN that luck went their way. That's an entirely different argument than "did Bill know what he was doing or not". In other words, the outcome doesn't always correlate with whether or not the coach had a strategy or not. The Pats could have put their punt return team on the field by mistake, and Wilson could have tripped and fallen on the handoff and the Pats recovered. In that case, the Pats would have won AND their coaches didn't know what they were doing.

So again - all anybody is saying here is that Bill had a strategy, he knew what he was doing, and it just happened to work out probably even better than he had hoped.

See what I mean ^^^^^^

[Bad Morty]

See what I mean ^^^^^^

 

No - I don't. You aren't within 50 nautical miles of a point, Captain.