To understand Peyton Manning one has to know where he came from

[Shane Bond]

Did the Saints led the league in turnovers or time of possession from the time Brees got there?

Do you really need turnovers to win the game or have a lot of 3 and outs?.

 

What happend to Brees the following year of the BountyGate?.

 

Its a fact and a proven theory about the bountygate and people were punished. No matter how you want to spin it  .

[sweetsurrender]

Do you really need turnovers to win the game or have a lot of 3 and outs?.

 

What happend to Brees the following year of the BountyGate?.

 

Its a fact and a proven theory about the bountygate and people were punished. No matter how you want to spin it  .

Did the Saints D lead the league in three and outs?

 

What do you mean what happened to Brees? He had over 5,000 yards (second highest total of his career) and 43 TDs. His picks were high (19) because his defense was atrocious. And what about last year which is also post bountygate? He had over 5,000 again and 39 TDs to just 12 picks.

[amfootball]

It used to be harder to play quarterback and Drew Brees sucked.

Now it's easier to play quarterback and Drew Brees doesn't suck as bad.

Could you say that about Peyton, Eli and Brady? Plus other truly great ones who are retired but still played at the same level in both eras like Favre and Warner?

Do you also believe Aaron Rodgers success is due to the new rules?

[Shane Bond]

Did the Saints D lead the league in three and outs?

 

What do you mean what happened to Brees? He had over 5,000 yards (second highest total of his career) and 43 TDs. His picks were high (19) because his defense was atrocious. And what about last year which is also post bountygate? He had over 5,000 again and 39 TDs to just 12 picks.

How come the defense become atrocious suddenly the year next to bountygate?. Ummm interesting isnt it.

[sweetsurrender]

How come the defense become atrocious suddenly the year next to bountygate?. Ummm interesting isnt it.

Man, you really never do admit it when you are wrong. I posted Bree's numbers post bountygate which you can't refute, I asked you if the Saints D led the league in TOs or three and outs? Nada from you. Greg Willams came as DC in 2009 and Brees came in 2006 and has been putting up big numbers all along and still you think that Brees success is due to Bountygate??? Do you really think he is not an elite QB or do you just dislike him or the Saints? 

[Shane Bond]

Man, you really never do admit it when you are wrong. I posted Bree's numbers post bountygate which you can't refute, I asked you if the Saints D led the league in TOs or three and outs? Nada from you. Greg Willams came as DC in 2009 and Brees came in 2006 and has been putting up big numbers all along and still you think that Brees success is due to Bountygate??? Do you really think he is not an elite QB or do you just dislike him or the Saints? 

Whats there to admit. You are twisting and turning the topic. Stick to it.

 

Point is about Saints post bountygate and bountygate playing a major role for them winning.

 

Where did i say Brees is bad?.

[sweetsurrender]

Whats there to admit. You are twisting and turning the topic. Stick to it.

 

Point is about Saints post bountygate and bountygate playing a major role for them winning.

 

Where did i say Brees is bad?.

Oh man. They why did you even get involved? The discussion between BloodyChamp and myself had to do with Brees being an elite QB which he/she in part attributed to BountyGate. Go back and read the thread.

[Shane Bond]

Oh man. They why did you even get involved? The discussion between BloodyChamp and myself had to do with Brees being an elite QB which he/she in part attributed to BountyGate. Go back and read the thread.

I read the thread and i explained how it helped Brees.

 

The year next to bountygate Brees sure had lot of yards but they didn't even make the playoffs and lost so many games. So yards means nothing. His yards couldnt save the saints. His defense sucked without bountygate the next year.

 

There is really nothing more to it. :wave:

[sweetsurrender]

I read the thread and i explained how it helped Brees.

 

The year next to bountygate Brees sure had lot of yards but they didn't even make the playoffs and lost so many games. So yards means nothing. His yards couldnt save the saints. His defense sucked without bountygate the next year.

 

There is really nothing more to it. :wave:

Brees has been putting up elite numbers since he got the Saints in 2006. His production has not waned either pre bountygate or post.Williams came in 2009. In terms of the Saints winning, again, the team has been winning and going to the post-season almost every season under Brees. The one year that they won the Super Bowl could have been in part attritubed to Bountygate. Whose to say. But Brees is elite. Period. That has been the discussion with Bloody Champ, not the Saints winning. 

[Superman]

It used to be harder to play quarterback and Drew Brees sucked.

Now it's easier to play quarterback and Drew Brees doesn't suck as bad.

Could you say that about Peyton, Eli and Brady? Plus other truly great ones who are retired but still played at the same level in both eras like Favre and Warner?

 

Drew Brees never sucked. 

 

Drew Brees doesn't suck now, on any level. He's very simply one of the best QBs of this generation, by any identifiable measure.

 

Prior to 2004, Eli didn't play QB in the NFL, and since 2004, he's been outperformed by Brees, and by a wiiiiiiide margin.

 

Whatever it is that has you so against Brees, I don't see it. I think he's a GREAT QB, and I believe the facts are on my side.

[BloodyChamp]

:58

No but I missed this touchdown thanks to the refs, and this plus the gif above are just a couple of tbe blown calls that Bountygate overshadows. I don't care how many fumbles and picks there were, the refs were the reason the Saints won that game. As for the turnovers though, did it ever occur to you that they wouldn't have turned it over so much had the other team not been cheating lol!?!

[BloodyChamp]

Oh man. They why did you even get involved? The discussion between BloodyChamp and myself had to do with Brees being an elite QB which he/she in part attributed to BountyGate. Go back and read the thread.

Oh man. Why did you have to come prove me wrong against BloodyChamp...

[BloodyChamp]

Drew Brees never sucked.

Drew Brees doesn't suck now, on any level. He's very simply one of the best QBs of this generation, by any identifiable measure.

Prior to 2004, Eli didn't play QB in the NFL, and since 2004, he's been outperformed by Brees, and by a wiiiiiiide margin.

Whatever it is that has you so against Brees, I don't see it. I think he's a GREAT QB, and I believe the facts are on my side.

And you are wrong, which has been proven on this forum several times.

[sweetsurrender]

:58

No but I missed this touchdown thanks to the refs, and this plus the gif above are just a couple of tbe blown calls that Bountygate overshadows. I don't care how many fumbles and picks there were, the refs were the reason the Saints won that game. As for the turnovers though, did it ever occur to you that they wouldn't have turned it over so much had the other team not been cheating lol!?!

Favre was rolling to his right, completely in the open when he threw across his body for the fatal pick. How is that the fault of Bountygate?

[Superman]

You have to admit though that Super Bowl was strange. From the first play on, Manning looked defeated, Fox looked clueless. The only guys that seemed to have any passion at all were Champ Bailey and Welker at least based on the FX film. It was surreal to watch. Seattle came out in their base defense and dared Denver to score on them and it was like Denver did not know who they were playing and made no adjustments. It just got worse and worse as they game went on to the point that Fox was praying for Wilson to throw a pick and then says after the game that they were not even prepared for the noise.

 

From the first play, when the ball sailed over Manning's head? Yeah, his demeanor was a huge factor in that...

 

I just think Seattle was better, and they throttled everything the Broncos tried to do. They countered every adjustment, and whenever the Broncos did get a little bit of rhythm -- and I'm talking about something as simple as a couple of first downs in a row -- they'd make a big mistake and undo the little bit of success they'd just had.

 

I don't know how much of that we can attribute to Manning's demeanor, his attitude, his temperament before the game, over preparation, etc.

 

As a matter of fact, you're pointing to Fox saying they weren't prepared for the noise, and that seems like something that would be a part of Manning's obsessive preparation routine. Yet we're talking about Manning's obsession leading to too much pressure on the team.

 

I just don't think there's a real link between one thing and the other, in general. And especially with the SB, I just think Seattle was at their very best, and Denver was sloppy, and before you know it, they're down three scores on a handful of huge plays.

[BloodyChamp]

Do you also believe Aaron Rodgers success is due to the new rules?

Overall? Nah...but I do believe he is overrated. He's failed to show up in big games over the years and he's soft in physical games. The old NFC Central defenses would have sent him out in a body bag. Speaking of the old NFC Central, the 5th place in that conference sometimes had a record that could win the NFC North since 2009.

[BloodyChamp]

Favre was rolling to his right, completely in the open when he threw across his body for the fatal pick. How is that the fault of Bountygate?

It's not. I'm not disputing that play. Favre threw the pick which the refs called correctly. That led to the gif that I posted (which came after the garbage pass interference call) which the refs called incorrectly. You're not awarded automatic points when the opposing offense turns the ball over. It's still up to them to do what the other offense was trying to do. The Saints couldn't do that without the refs.

[amfootball]

From the first play, when the ball sailed over Manning's head? Yeah, his demeanor was a huge factor in that...

 

I just think Seattle was better, and they throttled everything the Broncos tried to do. They countered every adjustment, and whenever the Broncos did get a little bit of rhythm -- and I'm talking about something as simple as a couple of first downs in a row -- they'd make a big mistake and undo the little bit of success they'd just had.

 

I don't know how much of that we can attribute to Manning's demeanor, his attitude, his temperament before the game, over preparation, etc.

 

As a matter of fact, you're pointing to Fox saying they weren't prepared for the noise, and that seems like something that would be a part of Manning's obsessive preparation routine. Yet we're talking about Manning's obsession leading to too much pressure on the team.

 

I just don't think there's a real link between one thing and the other, in general. And especially with the SB, I just think Seattle was at their very best, and Denver was sloppy, and before you know it, they're down three scores on a handful of huge plays.

I agree. I have always given Fox the lion share's blame for that game. Denver was utterly unprepared. I am not sure what happened with Manning. He never looked like he had an answer and I know much of that was due to how well Seattle played but the game was so strange to watch. Manning's demeanor was low and sulky and seemed to be that way early on. Perhaps he saw from the get go that Seattle was better or maybe he knew Fox did not do enough in preparation.

[amfootball]

Overall? Nah...but I do believe he is overrated. He's failed to show up in big games over the years and he's soft in physical games. The old NFC Central defenses would have sent him out in a body bag. Speaking of the old NFC Central, the 5th place in that conference sometimes had a record that could win the NFC North since 2009.

Then how can you discount Brees and say he is not really elite? Rodgers has only been playing since 2008 and has had the new passing rules squarely in his favor.

[sweetsurrender]

It's not. I'm not disputing that play. Favre threw the pick which the refs called correctly. That led to the gif that I posted (which came after the garbage pass interference call) which the refs called incorrectly. You're not awarded automatic points when the opposing offense turns the ball over. It's still up to them to do what the other offense was trying to do. The Saints couldn't do that without the refs.

The last drive was horrific by the refs but still don't know what that has to do with bountygate.

[BloodyChamp]

The last drive was horrific by the refs but still don't know what that has to do with bountygate.

The refs let all those hits go. The whole debacle of a game falls under the same striped umbrella if you get my drift.

Say the 2 things are different though, then that just means the Saints have *2* major faults in their victory and not 1.

[sweetsurrender]

The refs let all those hits go. The whole debacle of a game falls under the same striped umbrella if you get my drift.

Say the 2 things are different though, then that just means the Saints have *2* major faults in their victory and not 1.

It was a lousy reffed game but I have always blamed Peterson's fumble party and Favre's ridiculous pick at the end as the reasons why the Vikes lost. Even with all the lousy calls and bountygate, the Vikes should have blown out the Saints if AP hangs on to the ball and Favre just runs toward all that open field instead of making that horrible pass.

[BloodyChamp]

Then how can you discount Brees and say he is not really elite? Rodgers has only been playing since 2008 and has had the new passing rules squarely in his favor.

I'm not saying I'm some huge Rodgers fan. He's overrated, but you can't ignore what happened the 2 times he got hurt and I don't just mean last season. No matter how easy the passing game gets, the starting quarterback deserves some credit when they lose every game that he misses. It wasn't just last season either. People forget that in 2010 they almost blew their playoffs when the backup couldn't win a 7-3 game against the Lions.

When Brees got hurt, the Charger's season was never in jeopardy.

[BloodyChamp]

It was a lousy reffed game but I have always blamed Peterson's fumble party and Favre's ridiculous pick at the end as the reasons why the Vikes lost. Even with all the lousy calls and bountygate, the Vikes should have blown out the Saints if AP hangs on to the ball and Favre just runs toward all that open field instead of making that horrible pass.

But instead all of that stuff happened and the game was tied after 4. Then in OT the refs walked the Saints through the goal posts. That was flat out wrong whether or not the Vikings had turned the ball over previously.

[sweetsurrender]

But instead all of that stuff happened and the game was tied after 4. Then in OT the refs walked the Saints through the goal posts. That was flat out wrong whether or not the Vikings had turned the ball over previously.

Yeah, I guess you can always blame the refs but the Vikings had that game in hand. You never want to let a game of that magnitude come down to the refs.

[Superman]

And you are wrong, which has been proven on this forum several times.

 

LOL, that's rich. You're the one trying to convince everyone that Drew Brees sucks. 

 

When Brees got hurt, the Charger's season was never in jeopardy.

 

LOL, that was nine years ago. And is hardly an evidence that he's not a good QB. When Brady got hurt, the Pats still won 10 games. That means he sucks, right?

 

This is stupid. I'm done. 

[Superman]

I agree. I have always given Fox the lion share's blame for that game. Denver was utterly unprepared. I am not sure what happened with Manning. He never looked like he had an answer and I know much of that was due to how well Seattle played but the game was so strange to watch. Manning's demeanor was low and sulky and seemed to be that way early on. Perhaps he saw from the get go that Seattle was better or maybe he knew Fox did not do enough in preparation.

 

I think he was irritated that the first play went wrong (which killed their chance of starting off the game on a good note), I think he wanted to go for it on 4th and 2 on the next drive (whether right or wrong), and I think he was irritated on the next possession when Moreno's fumble turns what should have been 3rd and 3 into 3rd and 7, and then he was made at himself for overthrowing JT and getting picked off. That affected his mood, I'm sure.

 

The next time he steps on the field, they're down 15 points. They made some adjustments, put together a good drive, then they get called for a penalty, leading to third and long, and he gets hit by an insane pass rush while throwing the ball, and it gets picked and goes back for a TD. Everything was going wrong.

 

They come right back out on the field, down three scores, and put together another good drive, but get called for a false start on 3rd and 4, then can't convert 3rd and 9, and fail on 4th and 2, and can't get points at the end of the half. By the time the offense got back on the field, they were down 29-0 and the game was over.

 

None of these are excuses. This is what happened. They made too many mistakes, the Seahawks capitalized on all of them, and they got their butts kicked. I'm not sure what kind of demeanor would have been appropriate, or would have made a difference in the outcome, and I wonder if him being rah-rah on the sidelines at any point would have been interpreted as him brow-beating his teammates.

[amfootball]

I think he was irritated that the first play went wrong (which killed their chance of starting off the game on a good note), I think he wanted to go for it on 4th and 2 on the next drive (whether right or wrong), and I think he was irritated on the next possession when Moreno's fumble turns what should have been 3rd and 3 into 3rd and 7, and then he was made at himself for overthrowing JT and getting picked off. That affected his mood, I'm sure.

 

The next time he steps on the field, they're down 15 points. They made some adjustments, put together a good drive, then they get called for a penalty, leading to third and long, and he gets hit by an insane pass rush while throwing the ball, and it gets picked and goes back for a TD. Everything was going wrong.

 

They come right back out on the field, down three scores, and put together another good drive, but get called for a false start on 3rd and 4, then can't convert 3rd and 9, and fail on 4th and 2, and can't get points at the end of the half. By the time the offense got back on the field, they were down 29-0 and the game was over.

 

None of these are excuses. This is what happened. They made too many mistakes, the Seahawks capitalized on all of them, and they got their butts kicked. I'm not sure what kind of demeanor would have been appropriate, or would have made a difference in the outcome, and I wonder if him being rah-rah on the sidelines at any point would have been interpreted as him brow-beating his teammates.

Yeah, so many disappointments on so many drives. I think with Manning, you want to see the emotion more which is why I liked what he did with Swearinger. It isn't about brow beating as much as passion/motivating. I think maybe with Manning it is all or nothing. He is more of a stoic leader that leads by example and when he gets emotional, it is usually because he has blown his stack. Just not in his personality I think. I really don't think his demeanor would have changed the result but it was more just something that was noticeably missing especially when it was shown by Welker and Bailey.

[BloodyChamp]

Yeah, I guess you can always blame the refs but the Vikings had that game in hand. You never want to let a game of that magnitude come down to the refs.

Really? You don't want to stop the rusher on 4th and inches an depend on the refs to see it as well as everybody else does?

[Buck Showalter]

First of all to understand what happened to killer, you gotta understand WHO killer the dog was....

[BloodyChamp]

LOL, that's rich. You're the one trying to convince everyone that Drew Brees sucks.

LOL, that was nine years ago. And is hardly an evidence that he's not a good QB. When Brady got hurt, the Pats still won 10 games. That means he sucks, right?

This is stupid. I'm done.

The fact that it was 9 years ago only makes it more legitimate. Brees sucked when quarterbacks weren't pampered. Now he's "elite"........because quarterbacks have it easy and Bountygate.

I've taken Brady to task on this forum before, without even going into the ageless Brady/Manning debates on this forum. The Brady/Cassell deal was a little different than the Brees/Flutie deal but I've not pretended Brady is perfect.

[sweetsurrender]

Really? You don't want to stop the rusher on 4th and inches an depend on the refs to see it as well as everybody else does?

If Favre does not throw that ball then the ensuing Saints drive never happens. Like I said, you never want to rely on the refs. That fourth down play was razor close and was called a first down on the field. Rarely if ever do they reverse a call like that.

[sweetsurrender]

The fact that it was 9 years ago only makes it more legitimate. Brees sucked when quarterbacks weren't pampered. Now he's "elite"........because quarterbacks have it easy and Bountygate.

I've taken Brady to task on this forum before, without even going into the ageless Brady/Manning debates on this forum. The Brady/Cassell deal was a little different than the Brees/Flutie deal but I've not pretended Brady is perfect.

I get the sense that you just have an agenda against all QBs since the new passing rules. 

[BloodyChamp]

If Favre does not throw that ball then the ensuing Saints drive never happens. Like I said, you never want to rely on the refs. That fourth down play was razor close and was called a first down on the field. Rarely if ever do they reverse a call like that.

It was clearly not a first down. If you want to keep backing up to lessen the significance of that play, then maybe Favre would haveran had his foot not been broken from all the illegal hits.

[amfootball]

It was clearly not a first down. If you want to keep backing up to lessen the significance of that play, then maybe Favre would haveran had his foot not been broken from all the illegal hits.

I had no rooting interest in that game but that pick by Favre had to be the WORST decision I have ever seen a QB of his caliber make in that moment. He was rolling to his right, no limp at all, had clear field in front of him to easily pick up the first down or get close enough for a FG that would have won the game and he throws back across his body to a covered receiver. Really, THAT play has come to epitomize the end of Favre's career where decisions like that became his trademark. As a fan, it was brutal to watch. You knew the Saints were going to win that game after that, refs or no refs.

[BloodyChamp]

I had no rooting interest in that game but that pick by Favre had to be the WORST decision I have ever seen a QB of his caliber make in that moment. He was rolling to his right, no limp at all, had clear field in front of him to easily pick up the first down or get close enough for a FG that would have won the game and he throws back across his body to a covered receiver. Really, THAT play has come to epitomize the end of Favre's career where decisions like that became his trademark. As a fan, it was brutal to watch. You knew the Saints were going to win that game after that, refs or no refs.

Then why did it still take additional help from the refs for the Saints to win the game?

[OldManP]

All jokes aside, that's why some people think he wouldn't be a good coach.  He would have really high expectations and you can't teach things like work ethic and drive.  It could be really frustrating for both him as a coach and his player(s)

Manning would be a very poor coach, IMO.  Brady would be a poor coach as well.

[Jiggy]

Yeah, so many disappointments on so many drives. I think with Manning, you want to see the emotion more which is why I liked what he did with Swearinger. It isn't about brow beating as much as passion/motivating. I think maybe with Manning it is all or nothing. He is more of a stoic leader that leads by example and when he gets emotional, it is usually because he has blown his stack. Just not in his personality I think. I really don't think his demeanor would have changed the result but it was more just something that was noticeably missing especially when it was shown by Welker and Bailey.

at the end of the day the manning haters just cant stomach the fact that he beat brady in the afccg and had the greatest year of all time proving hes better 

[amfootball]

at the end of the day the manning haters just cant stomach the fact that he beat brady in the afccg and had the greatest year of all time proving hes better 

"almost" the greatest year of all time until Seattle ...

[The Old Crow]

"almost" the greatest year of all time until Seattle ...

Kind of like 18-1 ! Lol