It's Linebacker Play

[OLD FAN MAN]

Um Angerer had 21 tackles just last week. Conner had 18 last night and 14 solo and was in double digits the two weeks before that. Angerer and Conner are 1st and 2nd in the NFL in tackles so far. Our linebackers now are probably the best group we've had since we had Petterson, Washington and Thornton. Other than Freeney and Mathis the linebackers have been the bright spot on defense this year.

if they had that many tackles, not good, we didnt get 3 and out, gave up first down yardage, # of tackles is not a good thing unless they were behind the line of scrimmage

[GoColts8818]

if they had that many tackles, not good, we didnt get 3 and out, gave up first down yardage, # of tackles is not a good thing unless they were behind the line of scrimmage

Again, it means they are making plays. I didn't say the whole defense has been good because clearly it struggled on Monday (although the Steelers game they were pretty good). Any time you get a tackle that means you are getting someone down and that's their job. We aren't talking about the whole performance of the defense. We are talking about the performances of Angerer and Conner. Also just last week weren't people use the 21 tackles Angerer to justify why he should be starting over Brackett? Now this week it's an arguement that it's not a good thing. It's amazing the double standards people use around here and the lengths some fans go to try to discredit their own players.

[OLD FAN MAN]

thank you!!

this is exactly why i am not on the angerer bandwagon. like i have said before, making tackles 5-10 yards down field just doesn't cut it as a linebacker!

lbs leading in tackles means we gave up big yards, not something to be proud of

[pizza guy]

if they had that many tackles, not good, we didnt get 3 and out, gave up first down yardage, # of tackles is not a good thing unless they were behind the line of scrimmage

Again, it means they are making plays. I didn't say the whole defense has been good because clearly it struggled on Monday (although the Steelers game they were pretty good). Any time you get a tackle that means you are getting someone down and that's their job. We aren't talking about the whole performance of the defense. We are talking about the performances of Angerer and Conner. Also just last week weren't people use the 21 tackles Angerer to justify why he should be starting over Brackett? Now this week it's an arguement that it's not a good thing. It's amazing the double standards people use around here and the lengths some fans go to try to discredit their own players.

Jim is explaining here why number of tackles is a misleading statistic. If a defense is doing its job, they would actually have very few tackles. The best thing a defense can do, other than force takeaways, is cause an offense to go 3 & out, and the Colts defense is terrible on 3rd down. In fact, the Colts are the 31st WORST defense on 3rd downs, giving up 48% of the conversion attempts against them.

Conversely, the Ravens defense, which is 31st in NUMBER OF TACKLES, is 6th in 3rd down %, and 2nd in scoring, allowing only 14.2 points per game.

When people measure defenses by tackles or yards, they're not really getting the picture. 3rd down and scoring defense are the defensive stats that matter. Getting your team off the field, and keeping the other team out of the endzone, that is how you win games. Tack on the fact that our defense is on the field longer than any other team's defense on average, and the problems only compound as the game goes on.

[GoColts8818]

Jim is explaining here why number of tackles is a misleading statistic. If a defense is doing its job, they would actually have very few tackles. The best thing a defense can do, other than force takeaways, is cause an offense to go 3 & out, and the Colts defense is terrible on 3rd down. In fact, the Colts are the 31st WORST defense on 3rd downs, giving up 48% of the conversion attempts against them.

Conversely, the Ravens defense, which is 31st in NUMBER OF TACKLES, is 6th in 3rd down %, and 2nd in scoring, allowing only 14.2 points per game.

When people measure defenses by tackles or yards, they're not really getting the picture. 3rd down and scoring defense are the defensive stats that matter. Getting your team off the field, and keeping the other team out of the endzone, that is how you win games.

Right and I said the defense as a whole has not been great. Yet Angerer and Conner have both been good. They hit someone they go down. Look at where they have been lining up. The pass is completed 8 yards down the field because of the coverage (that's coaching not them) and then they make the tackle and the guy goes down. For a team that is struggling as a whole with tackling Angerer and Conner seem to be the only two who can tackle. That's a good thing when talking about THEM which we are. Again, just last week 21 tackles was a case for Angerer to be starting over Brackett. Now it's a sign that he isn't good. Which is it? People can't have it both ways.

[OLD FAN MAN]

Um Angerer had 21 tackles just last week. Conner had 18 last night and 14 solo and was in double digits the two weeks before that. Angerer and Conner are 1st and 2nd in the NFL in tackles so far. Our linebackers now are probably the best group we've had since we had Petterson, Washington and Thornton. Other than Freeney and Mathis the linebackers have been the bright spot on defense this year.

that means those 2 guys made 39 tackles ,what happened to 3 and outs, # of tackles is a losers stat, how many yards were gained before those 39 tackles

[Jason_]

True, but you have the tampa 2 scheme to thank for that, not the LBs themselves. the whole idea of the tampa 2 is bend but don't break. they don't care about giving up yards and therefore 3rd downs. The only thing they care about is keeping the opponent out of the end zone. So of the 2 defensive stats you mentioned, only one of them is important to the tampa 2 and that's the scoring defense.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with everything you said and that the number of tackles is a reflection of poor 3rd down conversion %. However, I don't want people to misunderstand and blame this on the LBs individually but rather the scheme. The biggest problem this year is that they're not doing the two things the tampa 2 was primarily designed to do and that's prevent the big play and keep other teams from scoring.

Is this because the Tampa 2 has been figured out and teams know how to exploit it? Is it because Coyer doesn't know how to playcall an entire game to get the most effectiveness out of the scheme? Is it because the LBs (and CB's) we have aren't exactly what we need to run the tampa 2 effectively? the truth is it's probably a combination of all 3 but the root of the problem and the responsibility to fix this all falls on Coyer.

[husker61]

Well, when your coordinator makes you drop 20 yards away from the line of scrimmage...

i was referring to running plays. i completely agree with peoples frustration about allowing teams to complete the short passes.

[husker61]

Jim is explaining here why number of tackles is a misleading statistic. If a defense is doing its job, they would actually have very few tackles. The best thing a defense can do, other than force takeaways, is cause an offense to go 3 & out, and the Colts defense is terrible on 3rd down. In fact, the Colts are the 31st WORST defense on 3rd downs, giving up 48% of the conversion attempts against them.

Conversely, the Ravens defense, which is 31st in NUMBER OF TACKLES, is 6th in 3rd down %, and 2nd in scoring, allowing only 14.2 points per game.

When people measure defenses by tackles or yards, they're not really getting the picture. 3rd down and scoring defense are the defensive stats that matter. Getting your team off the field, and keeping the other team out of the endzone, that is how you win games. Tack on the fact that our defense is on the field longer than any other team's defense on average, and the problems only compound as the game goes on.

very good post!

[husker61]

Again, just last week 21 tackles was a case for Angerer to be starting over Brackett. Now it's a sign that he isn't good. Which is it? People can't have it both ways.

if the same poster flip flops, you make a valid point. but if different people are taking a different but consistent position, this isn't a valid point. you can't take everyone and say they are one. you will always have people on both sides of a topic. that's what makes discussions interesting.

[OLD FAN MAN]

Um Angerer had 21 tackles just last week. Conner had 18 last night and 14 solo and was in double digits the two weeks before that. Angerer and Conner are 1st and 2nd in the NFL in tackles so far. Our linebackers now are probably the best group we've had since we had Petterson, Washington and Thornton. Other than Freeney and Mathis the linebackers have been the bright spot on defense this year.

making a tackle after a yardage gain is good? why do we lead in tackles? we dont stop the play from being completed for a first down,.what about 3 and out defenses , they dont lead in tackles, only 3 per drive.leading in tackles is a bad stat

[Jason_]

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Manning dink and dunk his way to Superbowl MVP against the Bears Vs this coverage? Just saying the Colts aren't the only ones who do this.

true...but, as a DC I'd not be nearly as upset about a QB the caliber of Manning dissecting my defense as I would a QB like Colt McCoy. Against the Tampa 2 coverage we're talking about, McCoy completed 100% of his passes averaging over 8 yards per pass. When an inexperienced QB like McCoy who plays in a relatively mediocre passing attack has those type of numbers then there's something very wrong imo.

[Jason_]

making a tackle after a yardage gain is good? why do we lead in tackles? we dont stop the play from being completed for a first down,.what about 3 and out defenses , they dont lead in tackles, only 3 per drive.leading in tackles is a bad stat

The tampa 2 is not a 3 and out defense. If you want a 3 and out defense (and I would definitely prefer one that at least tries) then you change the scheme...can't blame it on the play of the LBs.

[Coltsman1788]

This is a diagram of the base tampa 2 defense and clearly shows that Angerer was playing in the position he was supposed to be. The short/middle area is left wide open when the MIKE drops back and the WILL and SAM simply aren't fast enough nor good enough in coverage to each cover half the field...that's why LB'S are usually covering at most 1/3 of the field.

I'm not by any means saying the LB's have been perfect on every single play, but where they are lining up and Angerer dropping so far back are 100% due to the tampa 2 coverage scheme.

Nice. And for that we have Coyer to blame and not our linebackers who are just doing what they are supposed to be doing in this sorry scheme. It is interesting though that in this diagram the safeties and Mike are backing up 10 yards from the line of scrimmage which would makes at least some sense yet Coyer has them playing about 15 yards back, which is why we have been giving up bigger completions down the middle. I think we need to at least vary the drop distances of these guys from time to time; and switch up on whether or not we drop the Mike to at least play some mind games and throw off the offense a little bit. We play our hand the same way each time it seems and offenses are just methodically picking us apart.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Coltsman1788

[Steagles]

Its Tampa 2, not Pat or Kavell or any of the linebackers.

[everybodysgotone]

Even within the faulty scheme, Angerer is playing smarter and harder in his 2nd year. Way up on tackles, assists, has more stuffs, and equaled his FFs from all of last year in just four games. How anyone can make this out to be a detractor from the play out of the LB is beyond me. You can't make chicken salad outta chicken scratch......the guy is doing a fantastic job (as is Conner) under the circumstances. This is a good thing. Someone has to make the plays and he's getting it done.

[wordofmouth]

lbs leading in tackles means we gave up big yards, not something to be proud of

As I pointed out in another thread, LB's almost always lead teams in Tackles.

Of the top 50 tacklers going into week five, 32 are linbackers. The rest are D backs, no D lineman in the bunch.

So be gratefull to Pat and Connor that they are 1 and 2 and not our D backs. As I said in the last post, imagine if they hadn't made those tackles, we would be in real trouble!

Blame the scheme but not the linbackers.

[Coffeedrinker]

N

thank you!! this is exactly why i am not on the angerer bandwagon. like i have said before, making tackles 5-10 yards down field just doesn't cut it as a linebacker!

Except that most of Angerer's tackles are not 5-10 yards down the field and even fewer of his run tackles are that far down the field. Most of his tackles in the running game at within 3 yards of the LOS. Passing game is different because it's a pass.

[shakedownstreet]

***bangs head against wall***

[husker61]

N

Except that most of Angerer's tackles are not 5-10 yards down the field and even fewer of his run tackles are that far down the field. Most of his tackles in the running game at within 3 yards of the LOS. Passing game is different because it's a pass.

i guess we are watching different games. if you were right, the defense would be getting off the field faster than they are. the colts are 28th in rushing defense.

[Coffeedrinker]

i guess we are watching different games. if you were right, the defense would be getting off the field faster than they are. the colts are 28th in rushing defense.

Perhaps. I'm watching the Colts games, which games are you watching?

A few other things, why do you take a comment about Angerer and then mention team stats to support your point? I've mentioned in numerous threads the things I don't like about the D. But I'm able to separate the D scheme and the play of individual players.

Also the Colts are 21st in ypc. Which considering they were 31 or 32 after the first game means they have been playing better and better. None of that changes that most of Angerers tackles in the rush game are within 3 yards of the LOS not 5-10 yards as you want to indicate.

[husker61]

Perhaps. I'm watching the Colts games, which games are you watching?

A few other things, why do you take a comment about Angerer and then mention team stats to support your point? I've mentioned in numerous threads the things I don't like about the D. But I'm able to separate the D scheme and the play of individual players.

Also the Colts are 21st in ypc. Which considering they were 31 or 32 after the first game means they have been playing better and better. None of that changes that most of Angerers tackles in the rush game are within 3 yards of the LOS not 5-10 yards as you want to indicate.

maybe you are watching the carson california colts.

until the stream i was watching cut off angerer's stops on runs were 4,0,1,6,6,11 yards down field. is that specific enough for you?