More from Pep Hamilton about the Colt's new offense....

[Superman]

While Bruce Arian's was great for this team and helped this team stay focused with the Pagano situation, his play calling was bad. It had no balanced and consisted of deep long developing pass plays behind a horrible defensive line. 27% of Luck's passes where beyond 15 yards or more. That's 3rd highest in the league and Luck had a higher amount of attempts then #1 and #2 so he threw the most deep ball passes in the league; as a rookie. That's absurd. Luckily Luck was able to still able to be successful and have a huge impact despite his raw numbers not being as good. Reuniting with Pep Hamilton will be very beneficial for Luck. Familiarity is always a plus and with his plans to run the ball more and having Ahmad Bradshaw, I expect Luck to have a way better season then last year.

 

Yep, behind one of the worst offensive lines in the league. Made it look even worse in pass pro.

[dutchff7]

While Bruce Arian's was great for this team and helped this team stay focused with the Pagano situation, his play calling was bad. It had no balanced and consisted of deep long developing pass plays behind a horrible defensive line. 27% of Luck's passes where beyond 15 yards or more. That's 3rd highest in the league and Luck had a higher amount of attempts then #1 and #2 so he threw the most deep ball passes in the league; as a rookie. That's absurd. Luckily Luck was able to still able to be successful and have a huge impact despite his raw numbers not being as good. Reuniting with Pep Hamilton will be very beneficial for Luck. Familiarity is always a plus and with his plans to run the ball more and having Ahmad Bradshaw, I expect Luck to have a way better season then last year.

 

Can't edit. I meant to say behind a horrible offensive line.

[Restored]

The Pistol isn't an offense or a scheme. It's just a formation, a hybrid of the shotgun and I formation. Its main benefit is to get the running back moving vertical toward the line of scrimmage, while giving the quarterback a better view of the defense. Has very little to do with the QBs drop or ability out of shotgun. And if it's primarily used as a running formation, it's not going to lead to more QB hits.

Not exactly true. In various high schools and some smaller colleges across the country, it's the main offensive formation, thus making it THE offense itself. When used properly and minimally, it does not lead to more QB hits. However, the Washington Redskins and RG3 last year were prime examples of its misuse.

Also, my point in talking about Lucks ability to operate in shotgun or from under center spoke more to his ability than anything else. The Pistol formation "dumbs down" defenses and the read the QB has to make. Luck doesnt have to use the pistol to move the ball down the field as his advancement in all areas was proven last year. However, when over used and in correctly, it can lead to unnecessary hits.

[BOTT]

Not exactly true. In various high schools and some smaller colleges across the country, it's the main offensive formation, thus making it THE offense itself. When used properly and minimally, it does not lead to more QB hits. However, the Washington Redskins and RG3 last year were prime examples of its misuse.

Also, my point in talking about Lucks ability to operate in shotgun or from under center spoke more to his ability than anything else. The Pistol formation "dumbs down" defenses and the read the QB has to make. Luck doesnt have to use the pistol to move the ball down the field as his advancement in all areas was proven last year. However, when over used and in correctly, it can lead to unnecessary hits.

It won't lead to more hits unless they run the read option out of it...which I highly doubt they do.

And just because you line up in a formation a lot doesn't make it an offense. Oklahoma is doesnt run a shotgun offense.

[AntonMcG]

Not exactly true. In various high schools and some smaller colleges across the country, it's the main offensive formation, thus making it THE offense itself. When used properly and minimally, it does not lead to more QB hits. However, the Washington Redskins and RG3 last year were prime examples of its misuse.

Also, my point in talking about Lucks ability to operate in shotgun or from under center spoke more to his ability than anything else. The Pistol formation "dumbs down" defenses and the read the QB has to make. Luck doesnt have to use the pistol to move the ball down the field as his advancement in all areas was proven last year. However, when over used and in correctly, it can lead to unnecessary hits.

 

You can use the same formation a million times over, that doesn't make it 'the offense'. You could throw either a Hail Mary or a screen pass from the pistol to the same effect. An offense is defined by its mentality, cumulative tendancies and how its personnel are used. It is often difficult to define.

[Superman]

Not exactly true. In various high schools and some smaller colleges across the country, it's the main offensive formation, thus making it THE offense itself. When used properly and minimally, it does not lead to more QB hits. However, the Washington Redskins and RG3 last year were prime examples of its misuse.

Also, my point in talking about Lucks ability to operate in shotgun or from under center spoke more to his ability than anything else. The Pistol formation "dumbs down" defenses and the read the QB has to make. Luck doesnt have to use the pistol to move the ball down the field as his advancement in all areas was proven last year. However, when over used and in correctly, it can lead to unnecessary hits.

 

We're gonna get really semantical. Let's just agree that there's a difference between using a formation in your offense and letting that formation define your offense. We're talking about the former.

 

The Colts can incorporate a gimmicky formation into their pro style offense without letting it dominate the offense. I agree that they'd probably use is less than 10% of the time, if they use it at all. I just don't think that restricted use is about protecting the QB. The Lions used the Pistol last season, and it didn't result in Stafford getting hit more. He ran the ball about half as much as Luck did. It didn't dumb down their pro style offense. It's just another formation. It doesn't require that you do anything in particular with your offense just because you alter the alignment of the QB.

 

And going back to the Redskins, Griffin played reckless football. I'm not willing to blame the Pistol or the read option for his injury.

[TKnight24]

There is a such thing as the Pistol being your entire offense. Ever play NCAA Football? There's a few teams on the game that only have the Pistol as a formation In the entire playbook (besides the special team & goal line packages) with just various looks to it.

I personally don't mind the pistol. You can run the formation without running the read option once and still move the ball. There's more to the pistol than just read option. And based on Pep's comments, don't the forum if you see Andrew Luck line up in the pistol with Bradshaw or Ballard behind him

[Gavin]

All it is is a formation, you can literally run hundreds of plays from it and make it your base formation without defining it as your base offense

[TKnight24]

I hope we run that Fake WR Screen with a wheel route the Eagles run. That play is gorgeous when ran correctly

[AntonMcG]

There is a such thing as the Pistol being your entire offense. Ever play NCAA Football? There's a few teams on the game that only have the Pistol as a formation In the entire playbook (besides the special team & goal line packages) with just various looks to it.

I personally don't mind the pistol. You can run the formation without running the read option once and still move the ball. There's more to the pistol than just read option. And based on Pep's comments, don't the forum if you see Andrew Luck line up in the pistol with Bradshaw or Ballard behind him

 

I think you base far too much on what you see in video games. ;)

 

That is like saying 'Shotgun' is an offense... it isn't, it's where the QB and RB stands pre-snap.

 

Personally I think far too much is made of something that is no more than the QB standing a couple of yards from his o-line, as if it is some revolutionary aspect of the game. The only reason is gets so much attention is because of its attachment to the Read Option.

[Superman]

The only reason is gets so much attention is because of its attachment to the Read Option.

 

Which, by the way, doesn't have to be run out of the Pistol. It can be run out of the shotgun.

[AntonMcG]

Which, by the way, doesn't have to be run out of the Pistol. It can be run out of the shotgun.

 

True, though I would say it makes more sense in the pistol due to better running angles.

[TKnight24]

Which, by the way, doesn't have to be run out of the Pistol. It can be run out of the shotgun.

As ran by Chip Kelly during his Oregon days. Eagles might run it too this year

[John Dee]

I think all this "pistol / shotgun" talk with a QB running into the new millennium revolutionizing the game will come to a end real soon.   

 

 

There is certainly a place for option football, esp with a QB who can THROW it.  ..   It is a total headache for any DC.

 

Newton, RG3, Kap....   all very young men....       with very little hits on their body.  If any get hurt who is next?

 

Chip Kelly...       His top QB according to all the rumors is N Foles?     And Chip drafted M Barkley.        I think Chip knows a lot more than we give him credit for.   And that is "one will not win consistently with a run first QB attack."  BUT, he can win with a SMART QB who can make the calls at the LOS rapid fire.    

 

And then execute.....     any wonder Vick is falling down the depth chart?

[TKnight24]

I think all this "pistol / shotgun" talk with a QB running into the new millennium revolutionizing the game will come to a end real soon.

There is certainly a place for option football, esp with a QB who can THROW it. .. It is a total headache for any DC.

Newton, RG3, Kap.... all very young men.... with very little hits on their body. If any get hurt who is next?

Chip Kelly... His top QB according to all the rumors is N Foles? And Chip drafted M Barkley. I think Chip knows a lot more than we give him credit for. And that is "one will not win consistently with a run first QB attack." BUT, he can win with a SMART QB who can make the calls at the LOS rapid fire.

And then execute..... any wonder Vick is falling down the depth chart?

RG3 with very "little hits"? Didn't he suffer 2 injuries this season?

ACL and a concussion (Atlanta game I believe it was) are not little hits

[John Dee]

heh..ee.e.ee..   I was being polite..  

 

RG3 is now recovering from his SECOND MAJOR KNEE surgery of his very young career.

 

But of course Shanny knows this.....

RG3 with very "little hits"? Didn't he suffer 2 injuries this season?

ACL and a concussion (Atlanta game I believe it was) are not little hits

[Restored]

It won't lead to more hits unless they run the read option out of it...which I highly doubt they do.

And just because you line up in a formation a lot doesn't make it an offense. Oklahoma is doesnt run a shotgun offense.

The read option plays are what makes the pistol effective from what I've seen. It forces the LB to make a choice in either pursuing the QB or the RB. If he guess wrong, the RB or QB scampers off for a big gain. Guess right though and you can get a big hit for a loss.

Depends on your meaning of offense. Coaches will tell you that their base package offense or whatever the formation they base the offense in, IS the offense. In area high schools, the primary power formations are the base sets, thus making it a "power run offense". Same logic applies to college where schools run spread offenses out of the shotgun. Does te formation dictate the offense or does the offense dictate the formation? Just depends how you look it at.

[Restored]

You can use the same formation a million times over, that doesn't make it 'the offense'. You could throw either a Hail Mary or a screen pass from the pistol to the same effect. An offense is defined by its mentality, cumulative tendancies and how its personnel are used. It is often difficult to define.

You both disproved and proved my point in your post. The Pistol, as I stated before can be both just used as a formation and as a base package in which an offense is based, making it the offense. Regardless of how you perceive it, plays that come in that put the QB in harms way are in that offensive formations. Colleges and high schools get away with it because of the athletic talent being more equal on both sides of the ball. In the NFL, it's much different.

[Restored]

We're gonna get really semantical. Let's just agree that there's a difference between using a formation in your offense and letting that formation define your offense. We're talking about the former.

The Colts can incorporate a gimmicky formation into their pro style offense without letting it dominate the offense. I agree that they'd probably use is less than 10% of the time, if they use it at all. I just don't think that restricted use is about protecting the QB. The Lions used the Pistol last season, and it didn't result in Stafford getting hit more. He ran the ball about half as much as Luck did. It didn't dumb down their pro style offense. It's just another formation. It doesn't require that you do anything in particular with your offense just because you alter the alignment of the QB.

And going back to the Redskins, Griffin played reckless football. I'm not willing to blame the Pistol or the read option for his injury.

Ill agree there is a difference as long as you acknowledge that it can be both a sole formation and a base offense.

As I suggested, we probably will see it minimally in the grand offensive gameplan. I think Pep suggested it as more "coaches speak" than anything to better elaborate on what kind of offense this will be. Concerning Stafford, Detroit wouldn't want to put him in the position of running at all considering his athletic ability or lack thereof so any plays run out of the Pistol would a designed pass or HB handoff anyway. I consider the formation to be "dumbing down" the offense because its relatively easy to execute compared to a standard 3,5 or typical shotgun play action pass, especially if its a read option play.

And I believe you have to blame Shannahan and the coaching staff. I believe they understood RG3s limitations as a rookie QB and tried to maximize the abilities he already had coming into the league. The problem was they over used the formations and ran plays that put him in harms way. They gambled and lost. It is noted that RG3 did play reckless at times, but it's the coachings staff responsibility to put him in plays and formations that lessen that probability.

[a06cc]

I'll start off by saying I'm glad Bruce is gone. I have no clue if this Pep Hamilton thing is going to work out as well. If the offense resembles any of the Stanford offense then look no further to watch highlights of them against Oregon.

[Gavin]

Ill agree there is a difference as long as you acknowledge that it can be both a sole formation and a base offense.

As I suggested, we probably will see it minimally in the grand offensive gameplan. I think Pep suggested it as more "coaches speak" than anything to better elaborate on what kind of offense this will be. Concerning Stafford, Detroit wouldn't want to put him in the position of running at all considering his athletic ability or lack thereof so any plays run out of the Pistol would a designed pass or HB handoff anyway. I consider the formation to be "dumbing down" the offense because its relatively easy to execute compared to a standard 3,5 or typical shotgun play action pass, especially if its a read option play.

And I believe you have to blame Shannahan and the coaching staff. I believe they understood RG3s limitations as a rookie QB and tried to maximize the abilities he already had coming into the league. The problem was they over used the formations and ran plays that put him in harms way. They gambled and lost. It is noted that RG3 did play reckless at times, but it's the coachings staff responsibility to put him in plays and formations that lessen that probability.

I dont think you can blame Shanahan at all, Its not Shanahans fault Griffin is a gifted runner, Its not Shanahans fault Griffin chose to run the ball when the play is designed to be a read and react play by both QB and RB, Griffin saw that LB cheat in multiple times over the course of a season so he CHOSE to run it himself, Now you can argue that field was not made for running on and I agree but ya cant blame Shanahan for the injury, If anything he deserves a pat on the back for conforming the offense around the talent around him, Your simply putting yourself in harms way if your going to scramble as a QB no matter the formation you run from if your a QB especially, sometimes you win that gamble...Many time you might even win that gamble........But eventually your going to lose that gamble, Griffin just happen to lose it after winning it so many times

[NewColtsFan]

I'll start off by saying I'm glad Bruce is gone. I have no clue if this Pep Hamilton thing is going to work out as well. If the offense resembles any of the Stanford offense then look no further to watch highlights of them against Oregon.

 

I'm not sure of your meaning about watching highlights of Stanford and Oregon, but for the record...

 

During Luck's 3 years at Stanford that he played,  his teams scored 51, and the other two games more than 30 points on Oregon's defense.

 

When run properly with the right personnel,  you only have to look at San Francisco's great offense of the last two years -- even without the Pistol -- it's one of the best offenses in the NFL.    And that offense is using much of what worked at Stanford where Harbaugh and his OC, Greg Roman came from.

 

The offense should work.   The questions are,  do we have good enough personnel,  and is Pep the right man to run it.....

 

We won't know for sure until this fall.......

[BOTT]

The read option plays are what makes the pistol effective from what I've seen. It forces the LB to make a choice in either pursuing the QB or the RB. If he guess wrong, the RB or QB scampers off for a big gain. Guess right though and you can get a big hit for a loss.

Depends on your meaning of offense. Coaches will tell you that their base package offense or whatever the formation they base the offense in, IS the offense. In area high schools, the primary power formations are the base sets, thus making it a "power run offense". Same logic applies to college where schools run spread offenses out of the shotgun. Does te formation dictate the offense or does the offense dictate the formation? Just depends how you look it at.

I think you are just being argumentative at this point

[AntonMcG]

You both disproved and proved my point in your post. The Pistol, as I stated before can be both just used as a formation and as a base package in which an offense is based, making it the offense. Regardless of how you perceive it, plays that come in that put the QB in harms way are in that offensive formations. Colleges and high schools get away with it because of the athletic talent being more equal on both sides of the ball. In the NFL, it's much different.

 

As Superman said, this may be getting into semantics, but it is one of those occasions when semantics are important because people get confused otherwise.

 

'An offense' is defined by its philosophy and how it choses to get the ball down the field. Whilst formation is an element of that, it is only an element. And the pistol does not even define an entire formation, as there are variations of it, with the only constant being the QB and the RB.

 

Basically the point is, you can run many different types of plays out of the pistol, the same way you can in the shotgun or under center, but neither of them are 'an offense'. It is things like the Read Option which are so often associated with the Pistol that lead people to believe that it is more than it is.

 

I constantly see journalists misuse these terms which understandably creates confusion when people take them at their word, but to describe an offense as simple a 'Pistol Offense' is very loose.

[Restored]

I dont think you can blame Shanahan at all, Its not Shanahans fault Griffin is a gifted runner, Its not Shanahans fault Griffin chose to run the ball when the play is designed to be a read and react play by both QB and RB, Griffin saw that LB cheat in multiple times over the course of a season so he CHOSE to run it himself, Now you can argue that field was not made for running on and I agree but ya cant blame Shanahan for the injury, If anything he deserves a pat on the back for conforming the offense around the talent around him, Your simply putting yourself in harms way if your going to scramble as a QB no matter the formation you run from if your a QB especially, sometimes you win that gamble...Many time you might even win that gamble........But eventually your going to lose that gamble, Griffin just happen to lose it after winning it so many times

The problem is, RG3 was being put in a position to where he had to make the choice of handing it off or running with it. As you said, if he saw the LB cheating over, the only logical option would be to run with it himself. My objection is that he's being put in that position to begin with.

[Restored]

As Superman said, this may be getting into semantics, but it is one of those occasions when semantics are important because people get confused otherwise.

'An offense' is defined by its philosophy and how it choses to get the ball down the field. Whilst formation is an element of that, it is only an element. And the pistol does not even define an entire formation, as there are variations of it, with the only constant being the QB and the RB.

Basically the point is, you can run many different types of plays out of the pistol, the same way you can in the shotgun or under center, but neither of them are 'an offense'. It is things like the Read Option which are so often associated with the Pistol that lead people to believe that it is more than it is.

I constantly see journalists misuse these terms which understandably creates confusion when people take them at their word, but to describe an offense as simple a 'Pistol Offense' is very loose.

Again, it can work both ways. There are high schools and colleges across the country that consider themselves a "Pistol Offense" as it's their primary formation in which all/most of their plays originate from.

I can tell you my offensive philosophy is to get the ball down the field and we operate out of the pistol offense. Does that mean we are a Pistol offense or a down-the-field offense? I believe it can be both.