Jets and Bucs "agree" on trade for Revis.

[mvbighead]

classic jets being the jets again. really bad trade for the jets, who they gonna get with that first round pick that will be a better football player than revis?

 

I am going to disagree with you here.  Revis is a talent, but he has been banged up lately.  The Jets were unwilling to tie up QB money into the CB position, and a banged up one at that.  Now, instead of cutting him or letting his contract expire, they have acquired a top 15 pick this year and a 3 or 4 next.

 

If they were looking at a compensatory selection, the highest would've been a SINGLE 2.  Instead, they get a top 15 selection AND a 3 or 4.  They held out a long time, and that was the best deal they were gonna get from the ONLY interested team.

 

Long story short, they wanted to move Revis NOW.  They did, and got a top 15 selection.  And, with the new CBA, that new player is going to receive Revis' 1 year salary over the course of 4 seasons.  From a team building standpoint, this is a win.  Now they don't have to figure out how to pay a CB 16+ a season.

[Qwiz]

I still think the Falcons win the NFC South, but this is a step in the right direction for the Buccaneers.

[amfootball]

I am going to disagree with you here.  Revis is a talent, but he has been banged up lately.  The Jets were unwilling to tie up QB money into the CB position, and a banged up one at that.  Now, instead of cutting him or letting his contract expire, they have acquired a top 15 pick this year and a 3 or 4 next.

 

If they were looking at a compensatory selection, the highest would've been a SINGLE 2.  Instead, they get a top 15 selection AND a 3 or 4.  They held out a long time, and that was the best deal they were gonna get from the ONLY interested team.

 

Long story short, they wanted to move Revis NOW.  They did, and got a top 15 selection.  And, with the new CBA, that new player is going to receive Revis' 1 year salary over the course of 4 seasons.  From a team building standpoint, this is a win.  Now they don't have to figure out how to pay a CB 16+ a season.

Impact players of Revis' stature are once in a generation. A shut down CB is one of the top four positions coveted by any team. I would argue it may be top 2 because it is a passing league and when Brady is one of the QB's in your division, it is critical. The Jets would have done better to trade Cromaterie who was coming off a nice season in Revis' absence. The could have gotten a nice pick or two from him and kept the best corner in the league who is worth $16mil especially considering none of it is guaranteed. Jets could have struck the same deal and said good-bye at any time and would not have cost them anything against the cap...

[amfootball]

I still think the Falcons win the NFC South, but this is a step in the right direction for the Buccaneers.

Saints will bounce back this year with Payton at the helm.  I think they take the division.

[Qwiz]

Saints will bounce back this year with Payton at the helm.  I think they take the division.

Yeah maybe. Falcons and Saints games will be great to watch this year, that's for sure.

[mvbighead]

Impact players of Revis' stature are once in a generation. A shut down CB is one of the top four positions coveted by any team. I would argue it may be top 2 because it is a passing league and when Brady is one of the QB's in your division, it is critical. The Jets would have done better to trade Cromaterie who was coming off a nice season in Revis' absence. The could have gotten a nice pick or two from him and kept the best corner in the league who is worth $16mil especially considering none of it is guaranteed. Jets could have struck the same deal and said good-bye at any time and would not have cost them anything against the cap...

 

Nobody wants Cromartie.  He's been available before, and while he is being paid, there weren't many suitors other than the Jets.  The other situation is that Revis contract was set to expire.  They were forced to act on him, which they did.

 

Also, getting rid of Revis gets rid of someone who is constantly on the hunt for more and more money, despite being someone who has been repeatedly banged up.  To be honest, Rex's defenses in Baltimore had more to do with other positions than they did with CB.  Shutdown corners are nice to have, but if I'm a team given the choice between:

 

A) Revis at 16/season and whoever else I can fit around him.

 

or

 

B) Chris Houston

Keenan Lewis

Cary Williams

AND

Brent Grimes

 

I'm likely taking option B, and I'd still have money left over.

 

CB is important, but it is not nearly as important as QB, and, IMO, not nearly as important as your pass rushers.  If a QB has 10 seconds to find an open receiver, he will, Revis or not.  If a QB has 4 seconds, he very well may not.

 

Revis is likely "THAT" good, but if he isn't healthy, he is hurting your team.

 

And lastly, the Jets were tired of him, and got something in return.  Good on them.  They could parlay that pick into more picks by trading it, or draft Revis replacement, or let Kyle Wilson operate as the #2 across from Cromartie and improve their pass rush or other area of need.  It is not the detrimental loss that some are making it out to be.  They were going to have to lose him anyway, and they got a top 15 pick in the process.  Compared the Patriots getting Moss for a 4th or whatever that was, this is a great job by their GM sticking to his guns and waiting to get good value for Revis.

[amfootball]

Nobody wants Cromartie.  He's been available before, and while he is being paid, there weren't many suitors other than the Jets.  The other situation is that Revis contract was set to expire.  They were forced to act on him, which they did.

 

Also, getting rid of Revis gets rid of someone who is constantly on the hunt for more and more money, despite being someone who has been repeatedly banged up.  To be honest, Rex's defenses in Baltimore had more to do with other positions than they did with CB.  Shutdown corners are nice to have, but if I'm a team given the choice between:

 

A) Revis at 16/season and whoever else I can fit around him.

 

or

 

B) Chris Houston

Keenan Lewis

Cary Williams

AND

Brent Grimes

 

I'm likely taking option B, and I'd still have money left over.

 

CB is important, but it is not nearly as important as QB, and, IMO, not nearly as important as your pass rushers.  If a QB has 10 seconds to find an open receiver, he will, Revis or not.  If a QB has 4 seconds, he very well may not.

 

Revis is likely "THAT" good, but if he isn't healthy, he is hurting your team.

 

And lastly, the Jets were tired of him, and got something in return.  Good on them.  They could parlay that pick into more picks by trading it, or draft Revis replacement, or let Kyle Wilson operate as the #2 across from Cromartie and improve their pass rush or other area of need.  It is not the detrimental loss that some are making it out to be.  They were going to have to lose him anyway, and they got a top 15 pick in the process.  Compared the Patriots getting Moss for a 4th or whatever that was, this is a great job by their GM sticking to his guns and waiting to get good value for Revis.

How do you know nobody wants Cromartie? He just came off a pretty impressive year in Revis’ absence and it was his play that made the Jets feel better about moving Revis.

 

I was not aware of any injury issues to Revis prior to last season? Did he miss a lot of games in his other seasons?

 

I don’t disagree with your scenario of getting more players for the same money you would have paid Revis but yet you say QB is the most important position. Are the elite QBs not worth $20 mil? Would it be better for a team like GB to not pay Rodgers his mega deal and draft a QB and some other positional guys?

 

I think we fundamentally disagree on the value of a corner of Revis’ caliber. Perhaps I am biased because I saw pitiful Patriots secondary last year actually look respectable when Aquib Talib stepped on the field. And Talib is not even half the player Revis is.

 

I think you build your defense around a guy like Revis but like you say perhaps the Jets tired of his constant money demands. I think they got great value for him considering he would have been a FA next year and is coming off major knee surgery. Perhaps this would feel like a better deal all around if the Jets did not have such a poor draft history or if this year’s draft class was not so weak.

[mvbighead]

How do you know nobody wants Cromartie? He just came off a pretty impressive year in Revis’ absence and it was his play that made the Jets feel better about moving Revis.

 

I was not aware of any injury issues to Revis prior to last season? Did he miss a lot of games in his other seasons?

 

I don’t disagree with your scenario of getting more players for the same money you would have paid Revis but yet you say QB is the most important position. Are the elite QBs not worth $20 mil? Would it be better for a team like GB to not pay Rodgers his mega deal and draft a QB and some other positional guys?

 

I think we fundamentally disagree on the value of a corner of Revis’ caliber. Perhaps I am biased because I saw pitiful Patriots secondary last year actually look respectable when Aquib Talib stepped on the field. And Talib is not even half the player Revis is.

 

I think you build your defense around a guy like Revis but like you say perhaps the Jets tired of his constant money demands. I think they got great value for him considering he would have been a FA next year and is coming off major knee surgery. Perhaps this would feel like a better deal all around if the Jets did not have such a poor draft history or if this year’s draft class was not so weak.

 

My point regarding QBs is that they are the 1 position that outweighs any other.  A team with Rodgers is a perennial playoff contender.  A team without and still searching for "their guy" is not.

 

Revis, on the other hand, is not.  He missed 3 games a couple seasons ago, and 14 this last season.  In his last full season, his team went 8-8.  His team was 13th in points allowed, so just a bit worse than the middle of the pack.  I suspect you pull Revis from that team and replace him with a good but not great CB, and replace Sanchez with Peyton Manning (or Aaron Rodgers, or Brees, or...) and you have a 10-12 win team, with realistic hopes of being in the playoffs.

 

The point being, no matter how good any CB is, he does not affect his team the way a good QB does.  A QB is responsible for changing the play, getting the ball to 5 different receivers, depending on who is open.  A CB is responsible for shutting his 1 guy down.  On any good team, you can take away their top receiving threat, but they're still going to have 4 other guys to get the ball to.  And Revis Island can't cover them all.

 

All that said, I applaud the Jets GM for doing what he did.  Revis is coming off an ACL injury.  Why invest 16/season when his future is in question?  As evidenced by the 2011 season, Revis Island isn't handing you a playoff berth every year.  And then, you have a team willing to hand you a top 15 pick, and a mid round pick next year, when you're looking at losing him in the future anyway.  I'd jump at that opportunity every time, regardless of who is available in the draft given the new CBA.

 

As far as this draft being weak, our own Ryan Grigson disagrees.  He called this a trench draft with lots of talent on the offensive and defensive lines.  And while there isn't any consensus #1 overall guy, the Jets aren't picking #1.  They're sitting at #9 and #13.  That amounts to a 4 year 13 million dollar deal, and a 4 year 10 million dollar deal.  And they get to hand choose the 9th best prospect out of 600+ candidates, and then the 13th best prospect.  If Ryan Grigson was sitting on this hand, I'd be pretty darned excited.  As it's a new GM there, they can at least hope his staff knows what they are doing and will bring in a couple of young guys that can contribute right away.  At the end of the day, the Jets got a top 15 pick and avoided a 16mil/season contract on a player coming back from an ACL tear.  Not bad if you ask me.

[amfootball]

My point regarding QBs is that they are the 1 position that outweighs any other.  A team with Rodgers is a perennial playoff contender.  A team without and still searching for "their guy" is not.

 

Revis, on the other hand, is not.  He missed 3 games a couple seasons ago, and 14 this last season.  In his last full season, his team went 8-8.  His team was 13th in points allowed, so just a bit worse than the middle of the pack.  I suspect you pull Revis from that team and replace him with a good but not great CB, and replace Sanchez with Peyton Manning (or Aaron Rodgers, or Brees, or...) and you have a 10-12 win team, with realistic hopes of being in the playoffs.

 

The point being, no matter how good any CB is, he does not affect his team the way a good QB does.  A QB is responsible for changing the play, getting the ball to 5 different receivers, depending on who is open.  A CB is responsible for shutting his 1 guy down.  On any good team, you can take away their top receiving threat, but they're still going to have 4 other guys to get the ball to.  And Revis Island can't cover them all.

 

All that said, I applaud the Jets GM for doing what he did.  Revis is coming off an ACL injury.  Why invest 16/season when his future is in question?  As evidenced by the 2011 season, Revis Island isn't handing you a playoff berth every year.  And then, you have a team willing to hand you a top 15 pick, and a mid round pick next year, when you're looking at losing him in the future anyway.  I'd jump at that opportunity every time, regardless of who is available in the draft given the new CBA.

 

As far as this draft being weak, our own Ryan Grigson disagrees.  He called this a trench draft with lots of talent on the offensive and defensive lines.  And while there isn't any consensus #1 overall guy, the Jets aren't picking #1.  They're sitting at #9 and #13.  That amounts to a 4 year 13 million dollar deal, and a 4 year 10 million dollar deal.  And they get to hand choose the 9th best prospect out of 600+ candidates, and then the 13th best prospect.  If Ryan Grigson was sitting on this hand, I'd be pretty darned excited.  As it's a new GM there, they can at least hope his staff knows what they are doing and will bring in a couple of young guys that can contribute right away.  At the end of the day, the Jets got a top 15 pick and avoided a 16mil/season contract on a player coming back from an ACL tear.  Not bad if you ask me.

ok that is what I thought. Other than this past season, he has only missed three games so he is not injury prone. It is reasonable to expect he will return fine from his injury as ACL injuries are not that big of a deal anymore with the new surgery they have.

 

Your QB argument is flawed in relation to a top corner. I can guarantee you that if the Pats had anyone close to Revis on their secondary the past two seasons they would have back to back SBs. And they have the best QB of his generation at the helm.

[mvbighead]

ok that is what I thought. Other than this past season, he has only missed three games so he is not injury prone. It is reasonable to expect he will return fine from his injury as ACL injuries are not that big of a deal anymore with the new surgery they have.

 

Your QB argument is flawed in relation to a top corner. I can guarantee you that if the Pats had anyone close to Revis on their secondary the past two seasons they would have back to back SBs. And they have the best QB of his generation at the helm.

 

My QB argument is flawed?  How so?

 

Revis was on a team for a full season.  His team's QB play was marginal.  They went 8-8.  Peyton had been on the Colts for YEARS with a defense that often couldn't stop a parked car.  The first time his team didn't make the playoffs was when we lost him for the season (that is, after his first couple seasons).

 

The Broncos have had Champ Bailey for about as long as the Colts had Manning.  Their playoff runs were pushed by QB play.  Tebow's magic, and Cutler when he was performing/healthy.  Champ has experienced many years without the playoffs.

 

I don't care how far back you look in the NFL, there has not been one CB that has impacted the game nearly as much as a good/great QB.  A defensive whole can come close (think the Raven's superbowl win a decade ago), but by and large, many of your big wins come at the quality of your QB play or at the overall effect of your ENTIRE defense, or both.  Adding Revis to the league's worst defense isn't going to make them a top tier defense.  It just won't.  Adding Peyton to the league's worst offense certainly has the potential to take them from the bottom to the top half, if not top 10.

 

I stand by my argument.  A team is not guaranteed a successful season based on having a shut down corner.  It helps, but it is by not means a guarantee.  As for your argument, you're pairing Revis on a team with a HOF QB.  While Revis would certainly improve that team, he would not do anything close for them the way Brady does.  Honestly, if you put another solid CB across from Talib, they'd probably be close to going to more SBs year in and out.  Also, you have to consider that by adding Revis, they'd likely need to cut someone to make room for him.  And somebody big, not a scrub.

[amfootball]

My QB argument is flawed?  How so?

 

Revis was on a team for a full season.  His team's QB play was marginal.  They went 8-8.  Peyton had been on the Colts for YEARS with a defense that often couldn't stop a parked car.  The first time his team didn't make the playoffs was when we lost him for the season (that is, after his first couple seasons).

 

The Broncos have had Champ Bailey for about as long as the Colts had Manning.  Their playoff runs were pushed by QB play.  Tebow's magic, and Cutler when he was performing/healthy.  Champ has experienced many years without the playoffs.

 

I don't care how far back you look in the NFL, there has not been one CB that has impacted the game nearly as much as a good/great QB.  A defensive whole can come close (think the Raven's superbowl win a decade ago), but by and large, many of your big wins come at the quality of your QB play or at the overall effect of your ENTIRE defense, or both.  Adding Revis to the league's worst defense isn't going to make them a top tier defense.  It just won't.  Adding Peyton to the league's worst offense certainly has the potential to take them from the bottom to the top half, if not top 10.

 

I stand by my argument.  A team is not guaranteed a successful season based on having a shut down corner.  It helps, but it is by not means a guarantee.  As for your argument, you're pairing Revis on a team with a HOF QB.  While Revis would certainly improve that team, he would not do anything close for them the way Brady does.  Honestly, if you put another solid CB across from Talib, they'd probably be close to going to more SBs year in and out.  Also, you have to consider that by adding Revis, they'd likely need to cut someone to make room for him.  And somebody big, not a scrub.

I don’t disagree that QB is the most important position but it stands to reason that if QB is the #1 position than a shutdown corner would be #2. If you look at the way the Ravens played both the Broncos and the Pats in the second half, they did not pressure but dropped in coverage. They covered the receivers so well that Peyton only managed one scoring drive the entire second half and double OT and one pick and a fumble while Brady managed zero points and two picks.

 

There is a reason why the Bucs just made Revis the highest paid DB in the history of the NFL and his salary came in at only $4mil below Peyton Manning. His skillset and position are that critical to the success of any team in today’s NFL. Even pass rushers have been somewhat muted because of the athleticism of the younger QBs like Newton, Luck, Kaep, RG, Wilson, etc. QBs ability to extend plays make the secondary that much more important.

 

In terms of the Jets, they are not going to get an elite QB in this year’s draft. Since Revis has arrived they have been in the top 5 defense for yards allowed with last year as the only exception because Revis missed most of the season. His effect on the defense is every bit as critical as an elite QBs effect on the offense. While I agree that they are not a very good team right now, they are still a very good defensive team and defense is what they need to ride the next few seasons in order to contend while they groom their next QB. By trading Revis, they have basically put themselves in a position to be terrible on both sides of the ball for the next few years. And to boot their HC is a defensive guy who has admitted that he does not get offense.

 

I think they would have been better offer trading an offensive star like Holmes and getting picks for him as they need to rebuild the offense. In effect what they did is trade their very best player who many consider to be the best defensive player in the league. He is the one guy you build around just like you would with an elite QB.

[mvbighead]

I don’t disagree that QB is the most important position but it stands to reason that if QB is the #1 position than a shutdown corner would be #2. If you look at the way the Ravens played both the Broncos and the Pats in the second half, they did not pressure but dropped in coverage. They covered the receivers so well that Peyton only managed one scoring drive the entire second half and double OT and one pick and a fumble while Brady managed zero points and two picks.

 

There is a reason why the Bucs just made Revis the highest paid DB in the history of the NFL and his salary came in at only $4mil below Peyton Manning. His skillset and position are that critical to the success of any team in today’s NFL. Even pass rushers have been somewhat muted because of the athleticism of the younger QBs like Newton, Luck, Kaep, RG, Wilson, etc. QBs ability to extend plays make the secondary that much more important.

 

In terms of the Jets, they are not going to get an elite QB in this year’s draft. Since Revis has arrived they have been in the top 5 defense for yards allowed with last year as the only exception because Revis missed most of the season. His effect on the defense is every bit as critical as an elite QBs effect on the offense. While I agree that they are not a very good team right now, they are still a very good defensive team and defense is what they need to ride the next few seasons in order to contend while they groom their next QB. By trading Revis, they have basically put themselves in a position to be terrible on both sides of the ball for the next few years. And to boot their HC is a defensive guy who has admitted that he does not get offense.

 

I think they would have been better offer trading an offensive star like Holmes and getting picks for him as they need to rebuild the offense. In effect what they did is trade their very best player who many consider to be the best defensive player in the league. He is the one guy you build around just like you would with an elite QB.

 

And just what shutdown corners did the Ravens have?

1. Carey Williams
2. Corey Graham
3. Jimmy Smith
4. Chykie Brown
5. Asa Jackson
6. Omar Brown

You're making my argument for me.  Covering all receivers does not happen with 1 shutdown corner.  It doesn't.  Dropping 7-8 guys in coverage (to cover 5 receivers) does fill in most holes so there are far fewer openings.  This ain't rocket science.

 

The reason the Bucs made Revis the top paid guy is that they had a terrible secondary.  So to fix it, they went hard at FA and signed Goldson.  And then traded for Revis.  This will help, but they still have questionable QB play.

 

A CB is simply not #2.  Look at the teams that have won the SB in the last 5 years.  Look at teams with a shutdown corner.  Where have they ended up?

 

Pretty much every team that has won the SuperBowl has some method of pass rush.  Clay Matthews.  Terrell Suggs.  Osi, Pierre Paul, etc. James Harrison, etc.  None of those teams had a legit, shutdown corner.

 

The pass rush directly affects the QB.  A shutdown CB directly affects a WR, but the QB can just play to the opposite side, or use his TE or RB.

 

I get that Revis is a talent, but his talent is not worth 16.  I don't expect the Bucs to be monsters because of his addition.  Had they gone out and traded for Brees, Rodgers, or someone, they could likely easily be contenders.  And perhaps Freeman turns it up this season.  But further to my point, is very seldom that you see a team looking to move their top tier passer.  The two best examples I can think of are:

 

1. Manning - He was released because of a 28 million bonus, questionable neck injury that could impact his game down the line (which is still being talked about today), and the fact that the Colts held the #1 overall pick with the option of RG3 or Luck sitting right in front of them.
2. Cutler - He was traded because his new HC was a bonehead who was unwilling to work with him for the mere fact that it was conceived that Cutler had something of a voice on his team due to past successes.  Somehow, McDaniels thought he would do better with a lesser talent (Orton) while developing Tebow.

As for CBs coming a going... you see it ALL the time.  Cromartie, Asomugha, Bailey, Cary Williams, Cox, Houston, Lewis, Tracy Porter, Talib, etc. etc. etc.  Many of these guys signed 5-10 million dollar a year deals with new teams.  You need solid corners that don't make too many mistakes.  You don't have to have a 10/million a year guy.

 

And when you compare that to teams with top tier pass rushers, you don't often see those guys move.  Ware, Orakpo, Suggs, etc. are all still with the teams that drafted them.  It isn't until the skills start to diminish that that team looks to move on (Umenyora, Freeney, etc.).

 

I've put enough time in my argument, but suffice it to say, CBs are not #2:

 

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2013-03-02/2013-top-paid-nfl-players/

 

http://www.sbnation.com/2012/12/26/3805112/nfl-salary-cap-franchise-tag-amounts-2013

 

Based on franchise tag value, the top paid positions are QB, DE, then CB.  If a team like the Patriots gets a guy like Revis, odds are, they're going to have a hard time filling out their roster with talent with the likes of Brady, Wilfork, and Revis all getting paid mega-bucks.

[amfootball]

And just what shutdown corners did the Ravens have?

1. Carey Williams
2. Corey Graham
3. Jimmy Smith
4. Chykie Brown
5. Asa Jackson
6. Omar Brown

You're making my argument for me.  Covering all receivers does not happen with 1 shutdown corner.  It doesn't.  Dropping 7-8 guys in coverage (to cover 5 receivers) does fill in most holes so there are far fewer openings.  This ain't rocket science.

 

The reason the Bucs made Revis the top paid guy is that they had a terrible secondary.  So to fix it, they went hard at FA and signed Goldson.  And then traded for Revis.  This will help, but they still have questionable QB play.

 

A CB is simply not #2.  Look at the teams that have won the SB in the last 5 years.  Look at teams with a shutdown corner.  Where have they ended up?

 

Pretty much every team that has won the SuperBowl has some method of pass rush.  Clay Matthews.  Terrell Suggs.  Osi, Pierre Paul, etc. James Harrison, etc.  None of those teams had a legit, shutdown corner.

 

The pass rush directly affects the QB.  A shutdown CB directly affects a WR, but the QB can just play to the opposite side, or use his TE or RB.

 

I get that Revis is a talent, but his talent is not worth 16.  I don't expect the Bucs to be monsters because of his addition.  Had they gone out and traded for Brees, Rodgers, or someone, they could likely easily be contenders.  And perhaps Freeman turns it up this season.  But further to my point, is very seldom that you see a team looking to move their top tier passer.  The two best examples I can think of are:

 

1. Manning - He was released because of a 28 million bonus, questionable neck injury that could impact his game down the line (which is still being talked about today), and the fact that the Colts held the #1 overall pick with the option of RG3 or Luck sitting right in front of them.
2. Cutler - He was traded because his new HC was a bonehead who was unwilling to work with him for the mere fact that it was conceived that Cutler had something of a voice on his team due to past successes.  Somehow, McDaniels thought he would do better with a lesser talent (Orton) while developing Tebow.

As for CBs coming a going... you see it ALL the time.  Cromartie, Asomugha, Bailey, Cary Williams, Cox, Houston, Lewis, Tracy Porter, Talib, etc. etc. etc.  Many of these guys signed 5-10 million dollar a year deals with new teams.  You need solid corners that don't make too many mistakes.  You don't have to have a 10/million a year guy.

 

And when you compare that to teams with top tier pass rushers, you don't often see those guys move.  Ware, Orakpo, Suggs, etc. are all still with the teams that drafted them.  It isn't until the skills start to diminish that that team looks to move on (Umenyora, Freeney, etc.).

 

I've put enough time in my argument, but suffice it to say, CBs are not #2:

 

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2013-03-02/2013-top-paid-nfl-players/

 

http://www.sbnation.com/2012/12/26/3805112/nfl-salary-cap-franchise-tag-amounts-2013

 

Based on franchise tag value, the top paid positions are QB, DE, then CB.  If a team like the Patriots gets a guy like Revis, odds are, they're going to have a hard time filling out their roster with talent with the likes of Brady, Wilfork, and Revis all getting paid mega-bucks.

Does not appear we will agree on this. There are many ways to build a contender. The Ravens may not have had a shutdown corner but they had Ed Reed who may go down as the best safety to ever play the game, anchoring their secondary. Anytime you have the best player at his position, in his prime, you don’t trade that away. I get why the Jets did it as Revis has held out over his contract every two years but coming off of knee surgery they could have signed him to a no guaranteed money deal like the Bucs did.

 

He is well worth the $16mil and I think this is where we disagree. The Bucs as you say have a terrible secondary yet they traded away their top pick this year and a conditional 4 next year AND will pay Revis 16 mil a year. They understand that Revis will shut down one half of the field and take away the other team’s best receiver. That is HUGE and the reason why he is getting that type of deal despite his ACL injury. A player of his caliber makes the entire secondary better.

 

As you say, CB is the third most important position on a team and you cite pass rushers on champ teams. Yet, Clay Matthews who many consider to be the top young pass rusher in the game just signed a $13 mil a year contract, pretty hefty megadeal but yet $3 mil a year lower than what Revis just got coming off a major knee injury. So the market proves what I have been trying to tell you, Revis is not just a very good corner, or a shutdown corner, He is the BEST in the game. You don’t trade that away, not if you are the Jets and your D is decent and you need to rebuild your O. You build around Revis and trade anyone else for picks.

[Dustin]

CB isn't the 3rd most important position on the team.

 

It goes QB, LT, DE/34 OLB, and then whatever your preference is.

[amfootball]

CB isn't the 3rd most important position on the team.

 

It goes QB, LT, DE/34 OLB, and then whatever your preference is.

Based on the franchise value CB is #3. QB, DE than CB.

[amfootball]

Actually, DE and CB are tied for #2 at 10.6 mil, http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8247df3a/article/franchisetag-values-will-be-down-across-the-board-in-2012

[Dustin]

Based on the franchise value CB is #3. QB, DE than CB.

 

That doesn't make it anymore important. It just makes it more expensive.

[amfootball]

That doesn't make it anymore important. It just makes it more expensive.

Sure it does as NFL GMs pay for value. League could not set it there if orgs did not think the position warranted it.

[Dustin]

Sure it does as NFL GMs pay for value. League could not set it there if orgs did not think the position warranted it.

 

You think that covering a WR is more important than protecting the blindside of your QB?

[amfootball]

You think that covering a WR is more important than protecting the blindside of your QB?

GMs do. I think in today's NFL where it is a passing league and there is so much athleticism at the QB position, CB becomes paramount as DEs are not going to get there and even if an OL misses his block, the QBs are good enough to escape or make the defensive player miss.

[Dustin]

GMs do. I think in today's NFL where it is a passing league and there is so much athleticism at the QB position, CB becomes paramount as DEs are not going to get there and even if an OL misses his block, the QBs are good enough to escape or make the defensive player miss.

 

That explains why there'll be 3 CBs and 1 OT taken in the top 10 this year.....

 

Wait I think that it's the other way around.

 

I would compare the number of OTs taken in the top half of the draft vs Corners taken in the top half of the draft over the years, but that's too much work for a point that's just going to be dismissed. But if I had to hazard a guess I would say that OTs overwhelmingly go on average higher than CBs.

[Dustin]

GMs do. I think in today's NFL where it is a passing league and there is so much athleticism at the QB position, CB becomes paramount as DEs are not going to get there and even if an OL misses his block, the QBs are good enough to escape or make the defensive player miss.

 

Also, those O-line numbers are terribly skewed by interior lineman which bring down the average significantly.

 

 

 

The average salary for NFL offensive tackles, including left tackles, is $1.27, million according to a 2011 Sports Illustrated article. Because of their responsibility in protecting the most important player on a football team, the quarterback, left tackles are the second-highest-paid players on a football team based on average salary.

[mvbighead]

Does not appear we will agree on this. There are many ways to build a contender. The Ravens may not have had a shutdown corner but they had Ed Reed who may go down as the best safety to ever play the game, anchoring their secondary. Anytime you have the best player at his position, in his prime, you don’t trade that away. I get why the Jets did it as Revis has held out over his contract every two years but coming off of knee surgery they could have signed him to a no guaranteed money deal like the Bucs did.

 

He is well worth the $16mil and I think this is where we disagree. The Bucs as you say have a terrible secondary yet they traded away their top pick this year and a conditional 4 next year AND will pay Revis 16 mil a year. They understand that Revis will shut down one half of the field and take away the other team’s best receiver. That is HUGE and the reason why he is getting that type of deal despite his ACL injury. A player of his caliber makes the entire secondary better.

 

As you say, CB is the third most important position on a team and you cite pass rushers on champ teams. Yet, Clay Matthews who many consider to be the top young pass rusher in the game just signed a $13 mil a year contract, pretty hefty megadeal but yet $3 mil a year lower than what Revis just got coming off a major knee injury. So the market proves what I have been trying to tell you, Revis is not just a very good corner, or a shutdown corner, He is the BEST in the game. You don’t trade that away, not if you are the Jets and your D is decent and you need to rebuild your O. You build around Revis and trade anyone else for picks.

 

Clay's deal included guaranteed money.  Had Revis wanted something guaranteed, in a fairly high amount, his salary would have come down a LOT.

 

It could also be considered that Mathews wanted a feasible number that would not be tops by his position, but equivalent to his contributions and fair enough to allow his team the ability to sign another player or two.  Who knows.

 

As to Revis, I don't disagree that he makes an impact.  But if you were to give a team the option of Ed Reed (in his prime) at 10/season, or Revis at 16 (in his prime), I'm taking Reed every day.  I then have 6 more I can spend on a competent corner.

 

The only problem I have is paying a corner that kinda scratch.  He shuts down 1 guy.  Not 1 half the field... 1 guy.  If he's covering his guy deep, the QB can still work the under side of that field to a different receiver (be it WR, TE, or RB).

 

Now, a safety like Reed on the other hand, can split the difference of two receiving options, make a read, and get to the guy who the ball is flying to.  He surely helps cover a lot more than one guy, and if you have two solid corners, you can let them risk a bit more with Reed helping over the top.

 

The Jets GM got rid of Revis, IMO, for the reasons I am stating.  While he is one heck of an impact player, he is not worth sacrificing other positions for.  Peyton Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers, etc., are worth their weight in gold and can easily surpass succeed with lesser players around them.  Heck, that was pretty evident with the Colts final season with Manning on the roster.

[amfootball]

Clay's deal included guaranteed money.  Had Revis wanted something guaranteed, in a fairly high amount, his salary would have come down a LOT.

 

It could also be considered that Mathews wanted a feasible number that would not be tops by his position, but equivalent to his contributions and fair enough to allow his team the ability to sign another player or two.  Who knows.

 

As to Revis, I don't disagree that he makes an impact.  But if you were to give a team the option of Ed Reed (in his prime) at 10/season, or Revis at 16 (in his prime), I'm taking Reed every day.  I then have 6 more I can spend on a competent corner.

 

The only problem I have is paying a corner that kinda scratch.  He shuts down 1 guy.  Not 1 half the field... 1 guy.  If he's covering his guy deep, the QB can still work the under side of that field to a different receiver (be it WR, TE, or RB).

 

Now, a safety like Reed on the other hand, can split the difference of two receiving options, make a read, and get to the guy who the ball is flying to.  He surely helps cover a lot more than one guy, and if you have two solid corners, you can let them risk a bit more with Reed helping over the top.

 

The Jets GM got rid of Revis, IMO, for the reasons I am stating.  While he is one heck of an impact player, he is not worth sacrificing other positions for.  Peyton Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers, etc., are worth their weight in gold and can easily surpass succeed with lesser players around them.  Heck, that was pretty evident with the Colts final season with Manning on the roster.

The only reason Revis' deal did not include guaranteed money is because of the injury. He would have stil commanded that salary given his age and skill.

 

In terms of Matthews, he signed the largest deal for a defensive player in GB history. He did not do them any favors. He took them for all he could. I don't blame him but still he got less per year than Revis.

 

I don't necessarily disagree with not paying a ton for a corner but Revis is different. A guy like him takes out the best receiver and often does not need safety help. Denver pretty much played Bailey the whole season without any safety help. That is huge and is why a great CB can command such a high salary.

 

BTW, safeties are among the lowest paid. Only TEs come in lower. They are usually not as athletic as CB but good at playing center field and reacting to the play. That is why when a CB starts to lose his skills like Woodson, they move them to safety. It is an easier position.

[amfootball]

That explains why there'll be 3 CBs and 1 OT taken in the top 10 this year.....

 

Wait I think that it's the other way around.

 

I would compare the number of OTs taken in the top half of the draft vs Corners taken in the top half of the draft over the years, but that's too much work for a point that's just going to be dismissed. But if I had to hazard a guess I would say that OTs overwhelmingly go on average higher than CBs.

The reason why OLs are taken in the first round is because there is less risk that they will be a bust. The top O and D lineman in college tend to translate well to the NFL whereas WRs and CBs are more of a risk given the athleticism required at those positions. That's why once Revis proved how good he was he commanded the moon from the Jets in year two and got it.

[Dustin]

The reason why OLs are taken in the first round is because there is less risk that they will be a bust. The top O and D lineman in college tend to translate well to the NFL whereas WRs and CBs are more of a risk given the athleticism required at those positions. That's why once Revis proved how good he was he commanded the moon from the Jets in year two and got it.

 

What about my part about LTs being paid more? Doesn't that prove they're the 2nd most important position on the team?

[amfootball]

What about my part about LTs being paid more? Doesn't that prove they're the 2nd most important position on the team?

Is the franchise tag for LTs more than $10.6 mil for CBs and DEs? If yes, than they would be second.

[Dustin]

Is the franchise tag for LTs more than $10.6 mil for CBs and DEs? If yes, than they would be second.

There is no FT for LTs. O-line is grouped together.

[amfootball]

There is no FT for LTs. O-line is grouped together.

I think we can figure it out. Take the top five salaries of the top paid LTs in the league in 2012 and divide by 5. That is how the franchise tag is calculated.

[Dustin]

I think we can figure it out. Take the top five salaries of the top paid LTs in the league in 2012 and divide by 5. That is how the franchise tag is calculated.

 

$10,838,100

 

http://www.overthecap.com/top-player-salaries.php?Position=LT

[amfootball]

$10,838,100

 

http://www.overthecap.com/top-player-salaries.php?Position=LT

ok, now what is the average for DEs and CBs in 2012?  The link I had provided previously was based on 2011.

[Dustin]

ok, now what is the average for DEs and CBs in 2012?  The link I had provided previously was based on 2011.

 

DE's are still 10.6 this year. That jumps significanty more next year. Same for CBs.

 

Cornerbacks will likely have higher FT #s next year because of Revis contract, but this year LTs were more valuable than both.

 

Revis gets paid so much more than the next CB that I'm contemplating throwing his number out as an outlier because of the huge discrepancy between him and Champ Bailey.

 

If you're going off of this year LTs had the higher FT, but next year CBs and DEs will be higher barring cuts and re-structures.

[amfootball]

DE's are still 10.6 this year. That jumps significanty more next year. Same for CBs.

 

Cornerbacks will likely have higher FT #s next year because of Revis contract, but this year LTs were more valuable than both.

 

Revis gets paid so much more than the next CB that I'm contemplating throwing his number out as an outlier because of the huge discrepancy between him and Champ Bailey.

 

If you're going off of this year LTs had the higher FT, but next year CBs and DEs will be higher barring cuts and re-structures.

I think we are splitting hairs to be honest. It is not like all of these positions are not critical to the success of a team. My point all along has been that the Jets had the BEST player at CB as evidenced by his salary coming off a major knee surgery and the fact that the Bucs are going to give up their number one this year and conditional 4 next year. I just don't think you trade away a once in a lifetime player at age 27 especially when you are rebuilding. If they are able to get a franchise QB either this year or next year than he will be on a rookie deal which makes Revis' $16 mil easier to absorb.

[mvbighead]

The only reason Revis' deal did not include guaranteed money is because of the injury. He would have stil commanded that salary given his age and skill.

 

In terms of Matthews, he signed the largest deal for a defensive player in GB history. He did not do them any favors. He took them for all he could. I don't blame him but still he got less per year than Revis.

 

I don't necessarily disagree with not paying a ton for a corner but Revis is different. A guy like him takes out the best receiver and often does not need safety help. Denver pretty much played Bailey the whole season without any safety help. That is huge and is why a great CB can command such a high salary.

 

BTW, safeties are among the lowest paid. Only TEs come in lower. They are usually not as athletic as CB but good at playing center field and reacting to the play. That is why when a CB starts to lose his skills like Woodson, they move them to safety. It is an easier position.

 

1) There is no chance in Hades that Revis deal would include both that massive salary figure AND a large bonus.  There have been a multitude of players coming off major injuries who still sign contracts with a bonus (Brees to give one good example).  Ultimately, Revis' deal allows the Bucs to pay him what he wants, but allows them to cut him when they need to without significantly affecting their cap space.  If he took any guaranteed number north of 10, the salary would go down.  That's just how it works.  No way the team gives him both.

 

2) Matthews could have asked to be the highest paid DE/OLB in the league.  He didn't.  He's being paid right at or near his actual worth.  He certainly isn't going to take peanuts just to give his team the ability to spread the money to lesser contributors.  But he could have fought for a lot more.  That's my point.

 

3) I don't disagree that Revis is a talent.  But to handicap the rest of your team to pay a guy who eliminates one offensive threat does not seem to be the best idea.  If you can get that guy on your squad and have him be reasonable (IE 10/season), then you do it.  But he certainly is not worth 16.  If you have 6/season to sign a safety or LB, you can help your team that much more both in the pass rush and run support.

 

4) There are different kinds of safeties.  Guys who play more in the box, and guys who cover.  Make no mistake, not every CB who skills erode can become a safety.  Only top tier guys.  They do that because speed isn't quite as important back there.  Instincts are the primary factor.  A veteran player has those.  A former CB who is a veteran of 10+ years is likely going to have both ball skills and instincts.  This leads to picks.  Safety is not an easier position.  It simply requires less speed/agility because you aren't locked onto one man.  You're reading the field, the QB, and determining where you need to be to make a play.  When a CB's speed erodes, you can likely get a few years of him at safety if he is a decent tackler, and is a savy player.

 

As far as contracts go, I'll just leave it at the fact that while a top tier CB is a nice to have, it doesn't lead to a lot of championships, as history seems to suggest.  If you have some money spread around on both sides of the ball, but in a relatively equal fashion, you're likely to be able to run/pass when you need to, and stop the run/pass when you need to.  But paying 1 guy to do all of that for 1 job is just overkill.  He does not impact the game the way a QB does.  And DEs who can put reasonable pressure at least create opportunities for the ENTIRE secondary.

[amfootball]

1) There is no chance in Hades that Revis deal would include both that massive salary figure AND a large bonus.  There have been a multitude of players coming off major injuries who still sign contracts with a bonus (Brees to give one good example).  Ultimately, Revis' deal allows the Bucs to pay him what he wants, but allows them to cut him when they need to without significantly affecting their cap space.  If he took any guaranteed number north of 10, the salary would go down.  That's just how it works.  No way the team gives him both.

 

2) Matthews could have asked to be the highest paid DE/OLB in the league.  He didn't.  He's being paid right at or near his actual worth.  He certainly isn't going to take peanuts just to give his team the ability to spread the money to lesser contributors.  But he could have fought for a lot more.  That's my point.

 

3) I don't disagree that Revis is a talent.  But to handicap the rest of your team to pay a guy who eliminates one offensive threat does not seem to be the best idea.  If you can get that guy on your squad and have him be reasonable (IE 10/season), then you do it.  But he certainly is not worth 16.  If you have 6/season to sign a safety or LB, you can help your team that much more both in the pass rush and run support.

 

4) There are different kinds of safeties.  Guys who play more in the box, and guys who cover.  Make no mistake, not every CB who skills erode can become a safety.  Only top tier guys.  They do that because speed isn't quite as important back there.  Instincts are the primary factor.  A veteran player has those.  A former CB who is a veteran of 10+ years is likely going to have both ball skills and instincts.  This leads to picks.  Safety is not an easier position.  It simply requires less speed/agility because you aren't locked onto one man.  You're reading the field, the QB, and determining where you need to be to make a play.  When a CB's speed erodes, you can likely get a few years of him at safety if he is a decent tackler, and is a savy player.

 

As far as contracts go, I'll just leave it at the fact that while a top tier CB is a nice to have, it doesn't lead to a lot of championships, as history seems to suggest.  If you have some money spread around on both sides of the ball, but in a relatively equal fashion, you're likely to be able to run/pass when you need to, and stop the run/pass when you need to.  But paying 1 guy to do all of that for 1 job is just overkill.  He does not impact the game the way a QB does.  And DEs who can put reasonable pressure at least create opportunities for the ENTIRE secondary.

 

What is your basis for believing Revis’ deal if it included guaranteed money would not been as big? Generally large contracts for top players do include both. He was going to be the highest paid DB in the histor of football regardless. Like I said, the no guarantee was because of the injury. If Revis looks anything like the old Revis this coming season, the Bucs will pay him the guaranteed money. There is no way he plays out that contract as is if he is fully recovered and playing at a high level. The contract was just to get the deal done.  I would imagine it will go the same as Manning who just got $40 mil guaranteed for the next two years after proving he could still be elite last year.

 

How do you know Matthews did not ask for more? Like I said, he got the biggest contract in GB history so he did not do them any favors and it was still below Revis' who is coming off major knee surgery.

 

Athletically speaking CB is a far superior role to safety and just as cerebral. That is why the money for top CBs dwarfs the money for top safeties. Troy Polamalu only makes $9mil a year. I agree that not every CB can play safety but no safeties can play CB. None.

 

I am not sure why you believe a top tier corner does not help win championships. Ty Law was one of the biggest reasons the Pats won the three SBs in the ‘00s. In fact without his pick six to start the game against the Rams in the 2002 SB, not sure they win the first one. And by the way he was one of the highest paid CBs at the time and the Pats actually had him play out his entire last contract which was heavily backloaded. That is how much they valued what be brought to the defense. 

 

The Pats in particular have struggled the past few seasons because Belichick has been unable to acquire quality CBs through FA or the draft. He has never replaced Asante Samuels with anyone half as good. You could see firsthand last year the effect a first rounder like Talib had on the entire secondary and the front seven as they could blitz more knowing the secondary was solid behind them. Like I said, in a passing league, a solid secondary is a must and a guy like Revis is worth his weight in gold.

[mvbighead]

What is your basis for believing Revis’ deal if it included guaranteed money would not been as big? Generally large contracts for top players do include both. He was going to be the highest paid DB in the histor of football regardless. Like I said, the no guarantee was because of the injury. If Revis looks anything like the old Revis this coming season, the Bucs will pay him the guaranteed money. There is no way he plays out that contract as is if he is fully recovered and playing at a high level. The contract was just to get the deal done.  I would imagine it will go the same as Manning who just got $40 mil guaranteed for the next two years after proving he could still be elite last year.

 

How do you know Matthews did not ask for more? Like I said, he got the biggest contract in GB history so he did not do them any favors and it was still below Revis' who is coming off major knee surgery.

 

Athletically speaking CB is a far superior role to safety and just as cerebral. That is why the money for top CBs dwarfs the money for top safeties. Troy Polamalu only makes $9mil a year. I agree that not every CB can play safety but no safeties can play CB. None.

 

I am not sure why you believe a top tier corner does not help win championships. Ty Law was one of the biggest reasons the Pats won the three SBs in the ‘00s. In fact without his pick six to start the game against the Rams in the 2002 SB, not sure they win the first one. And by the way he was one of the highest paid CBs at the time and the Pats actually had him play out his entire last contract which was heavily backloaded. That is how much they valued what be brought to the defense. 

 

The Pats in particular have struggled the past few seasons because Belichick has been unable to acquire quality CBs through FA or the draft. He has never replaced Asante Samuels with anyone half as good. You could see firsthand last year the effect a first rounder like Talib had on the entire secondary and the front seven as they could blitz more knowing the secondary was solid behind them. Like I said, in a passing league, a solid secondary is a must and a guy like Revis is worth his weight in gold.

 

Revis' deal is the nature of any contract.  You either take your money with guarantees (signing bonus), or you give some of that up and settle on higher salary figures.  It's give and take.  Rest assured, it wouldn't be as simple as:

 

a) Healthy Revis gets 6years 100 million, with 40 guaranteed

b) Recent ACL recovering Revis gets 6yrs, 100mill, 0 guaranteed.

 

Matthews accepted his contract.  That's how I know.

 

Polamalu is making 9... nuff said.  Ed Reed was tops in his position for a while.

 

Yes, they did have Law.  But to my recollection, he was more of a "ball hawk" type guy.  He could read the QB like a book and get picks with help over the top from their safety, Harrison I believe.

 

As for the Patriots, they have declined because of getting too old on defense, and then replacing all the experience with youth right away.  Not to mention, disbanding talents like Moss and others.  The Patriot way will likely bring them a lot of wins, but they need to spread some money around and bring in some real guys.  They got old, and then they tried to get young a bit too quickly, IMO.

[amfootball]

Revis' deal is the nature of any contract.  You either take your money with guarantees (signing bonus), or you give some of that up and settle on higher salary figures.  It's give and take.  Rest assured, it wouldn't be as simple as:

 

a) Healthy Revis gets 6years 100 million, with 40 guaranteed

b) Recent ACL recovering Revis gets 6yrs, 100mill, 0 guaranteed.

 

Matthews accepted his contract.  That's how I know.

 

Polamalu is making 9... nuff said.  Ed Reed was tops in his position for a while.

 

Yes, they did have Law.  But to my recollection, he was more of a "ball hawk" type guy.  He could read the QB like a book and get picks with help over the top from their safety, Harrison I believe.

 

As for the Patriots, they have declined because of getting too old on defense, and then replacing all the experience with youth right away.  Not to mention, disbanding talents like Moss and others.  The Patriot way will likely bring them a lot of wins, but they need to spread some money around and bring in some real guys.  They got old, and then they tried to get young a bit too quickly, IMO.

 

I didn’t say the Revis deal would be simple, I said he would have been the highest paid DB in the history of the NFL regardless. The Jets would not have been able to move him otherwise. They knew his salary demands and that they would have to pay him as the highest paid DB so they traded him to the Bucs who were not only willing to pay him but give up two picks as well. The guaranteed money had to do with his injury. I guarantee (no pun intended) the deal will be reworked if he plays like the old Revis in 2013.

 

Just because Matthews accepted the deal does not mean he was not negotiating for more but settled on what the Packers offered him. Again, he got the biggest deal for a defensive player in Packer history so he got all he could from them. With his injuries, it would have been hard for him to make the case to be the highest paid even though he is not far from it.

 

Law was not a ball hawk that was more Asante Samuels. Law was an old school corner. He played physical at the line back when DBs could actually put their hands on receivers and he covered like a blanket. He had help over the top at times from Rodney but he also went man- to-man with no help at times. But his game was more physical than anything else. He outmuscled the receiver and intimidated him. He was also good at baiting the QB to throw at him and then he would cut the route and make the pick.

 

In terms of the Pats D, you right in that their key talent all got old at the same time forcing them to get young fast. They have done well drafting at every position except DB. Honestly, they have not been the same secondary since Mangini left. I have said this before but I really wish Bill and Mangini would make up and he would come back and coach the secondary and help Bill pick quality guys in the draft.

 

What frustrates me is that they have never even attempted to replace Moss. They have gone all in on the two TEs who are both injury-prone. I don’t like it and I think Gronk is a meathead to boot. I really wish they would just get a stud on the outside. When they had Moss, Brady lit the record books on fire and almost went undefeated. Why you would mess with that, I don’t know.

[mvbighead]

I didn’t say the Revis deal would be simple, I said he would have been the highest paid DB in the history of the NFL regardless. The Jets would not have been able to move him otherwise. They knew his salary demands and that they would have to pay him as the highest paid DB so they traded him to the Bucs who were not only willing to pay him but give up two picks as well. The guaranteed money had to do with his injury. I guarantee (no pun intended) the deal will be reworked if he plays like the old Revis in 2013.

 

Just because Matthews accepted the deal does not mean he was not negotiating for more but settled on what the Packers offered him. Again, he got the biggest deal for a defensive player in Packer history so he got all he could from them. With his injuries, it would have been hard for him to make the case to be the highest paid even though he is not far from it.

 

Law was not a ball hawk that was more Asante Samuels. Law was an old school corner. He played physical at the line back when DBs could actually put their hands on receivers and he covered like a blanket. He had help over the top at times from Rodney but he also went man- to-man with no help at times. But his game was more physical than anything else. He outmuscled the receiver and intimidated him. He was also good at baiting the QB to throw at him and then he would cut the route and make the pick.

 

In terms of the Pats D, you right in that their key talent all got old at the same time forcing them to get young fast. They have done well drafting at every position except DB. Honestly, they have not been the same secondary since Mangini left. I have said this before but I really wish Bill and Mangini would make up and he would come back and coach the secondary and help Bill pick quality guys in the draft.

 

What frustrates me is that they have never even attempted to replace Moss. They have gone all in on the two TEs who are both injury-prone. I don’t like it and I think Gronk is a meathead to boot. I really wish they would just get a stud on the outside. When they had Moss, Brady lit the record books on fire and almost went undefeated. Why you would mess with that, I don’t know.

 

 

The guaranteed money had both to do with the injury and the amount he was looking for.  Brees got guaranteed money, and a hefty bonus despite coming of a shoulder injury to his throwing arm.  Revis wanted top dollar, and would not settle for less.

 

Matthews would be foolish to go to the table and ask for the number he was looking for.  Negotiations start high on the player side, and low on the team side, and meet in the middle.  Matthews could have held out, long and longer, until he got top dollar.  He settled for the highest paid Packer.  While it isn't a tremendous favor to the Packers, he is still not pulling a Revis and demanding every last cent to be a top paid guy in the NFL.

 

I may've overlooked Law, but I still submit that Brady had more to do with those SBs than the CB.  Heck, one could argue that Vinatieri had more to do with those wins.  I still would bet dollars to donuts that if you put two solid corners across from each other, you'd be in better shape than if you had 1 "shutdown" corner.

 

As for the Patriots, I think their egos are getting big.  From Moss to Welker, it just seems that they're trying to prove that they can do just fine with the next man up.  Welker got away for 2 yrs at 12 million?  Are you kidding me?  We paid a much older Reggie Wayne 17.5 over 3.  How in the world can you not pay a 100+ catch a season guy 7/year and keep him on board?  I realize Moss could've had attitude issues, but he was a threat no matter how you look at it, and that offense was extremely explosive with him.  It just seems everyone that comes from that team (coach wise) has a head on their shoulders the size of planet.  McDaniels came into Denver and thought he was top dog and he hadn't done anything to that point aside from coordinate an offense with one of the best QBs to ever play the game.  He inherited that QB, and suddenly he's a mastermind.

 

Ugh.  Long story short, I like teams that are build across the board.  Most of your SB franchises have solid players all around, and often a top tier QB.  If you can keep a top tier guy at position X for a fair salary, then by all means go for it.  But when he starts looking for QB money, I have no problems with a team moving on.  Far better to use that money to bring in 2-3 guys.  As with Dwight, when that big money guy is injured and on the sidelines, he's not doing much for you.  If you have that money spread around to solid/good players, you'll probably have a better lineup on 90% of your downs.

[amfootball]

The guaranteed money had both to do with the injury and the amount he was looking for.  Brees got guaranteed money, and a hefty bonus despite coming of a shoulder injury to his throwing arm.  Revis wanted top dollar, and would not settle for less.

 

Matthews would be foolish to go to the table and ask for the number he was looking for.  Negotiations start high on the player side, and low on the team side, and meet in the middle.  Matthews could have held out, long and longer, until he got top dollar.  He settled for the highest paid Packer.  While it isn't a tremendous favor to the Packers, he is still not pulling a Revis and demanding every last cent to be a top paid guy in the NFL.

 

I may've overlooked Law, but I still submit that Brady had more to do with those SBs than the CB.  Heck, one could argue that Vinatieri had more to do with those wins.  I still would bet dollars to donuts that if you put two solid corners across from each other, you'd be in better shape than if you had 1 "shutdown" corner.

 

As for the Patriots, I think their egos are getting big.  From Moss to Welker, it just seems that they're trying to prove that they can do just fine with the next man up.  Welker got away for 2 yrs at 12 million?  Are you kidding me?  We paid a much older Reggie Wayne 17.5 over 3.  How in the world can you not pay a 100+ catch a season guy 7/year and keep him on board?  I realize Moss could've had attitude issues, but he was a threat no matter how you look at it, and that offense was extremely explosive with him.  It just seems everyone that comes from that team (coach wise) has a head on their shoulders the size of planet.  McDaniels came into Denver and thought he was top dog and he hadn't done anything to that point aside from coordinate an offense with one of the best QBs to ever play the game.  He inherited that QB, and suddenly he's a mastermind.

 

Ugh.  Long story short, I like teams that are build across the board.  Most of your SB franchises have solid players all around, and often a top tier QB.  If you can keep a top tier guy at position X for a fair salary, then by all means go for it.  But when he starts looking for QB money, I have no problems with a team moving on.  Far better to use that money to bring in 2-3 guys.  As with Dwight, when that big money guy is injured and on the sidelines, he's not doing much for you.  If you have that money spread around to solid/good players, you'll probably have a better lineup on 90% of your downs.

The reason why Matthews was not the highest paid player is because he is not the best player at his position like Revis. Just the best player the Packers have ever had so they paid him like it.

 

I would agree that Brady had the most to do with the Pats SBs but it takes a team to win and Law was the best player on their defense during the championship years. I do agree having two solid corners would be great, it is hard to find though. Having one shut down corner or the best CB in the game like Revis means you can get away lesser talents around him.

 

In terms of the Pats philosophy, they have been pretty successful with their next man up approach. Welker played for six years in his prime so they got a ton of value out of him. As I have said on other threads, the Pats offered him 2 years at $16 mil two years ago and he turned it down. I think that was the beginning of the end. They did franchise him last year and offer another contract this past off-season but he still bolted for only a mil more per year. I don’t believe he would have stayed even if the Pats matched the Denver offer.

 

In terms of Moss, he wanted top receiver money in 2010 when his skills had clearly declined. He pretty much shot his way out of NE. Even he has admitted that and has lamented the fact that he left as he had it pretty good with Brady and the rest of the O.

 

I don’t disagree about McDaniels. I am not sure why he chose to run his team that way. He certainly did not learn that from Bill. Bill is always straight up with his players and pays you what you are worth. If you feel you are worth more than he lets you go. McDaniels came in and immediately alienated both Cutler and Marshall. It was surreal. I chalk it up to inexperience. I think that is why he has come back to NE and turned down potential HCs offers this past off-season. I think he knows he made a lot of mistakes. There are rumors by the way that NE may get Tebow. McDaniels loves the guy so it would seem to make sense just not sure Bill wants all the drama that comes with Tebow.

[BleedingBlue]

Jets need a man corner because rex likes to blitz.

I think they did well. Jets fans here in NY not so happy. Lots of unhappy fans at the office today.

As long as Sanchez is QB, they have no chance regardless.

 

TEEEEEBOOOOOOOWWWWWW!