Re-evaluate Eberflus

[aaron11]

11 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

 I would not be so keen to replicate the Seattle D. It was great in its time.  Owecer, listening to smart FO people, they say the Seattle D has also been exposed. Teams currently running it are not having much success stopping offenses.

 

they had a lot of good players on rookie contracts to make that work.  it fell apart when they were due for a raise and they could not pay them all and russel wilson 

 

put that many good players on one defense again and i think the cover 3 would still work 

[DougDew]

2 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Sorry that is the way it came across.  I didn't give him a pass.  I know he liked Hooker as a prospect and not as a safety for Pagano's D.  My point was that by not firing Pagano, it prevented the Colts from moving forward.

As far as the comment about misses are adding up as each year passes... um well yeah, no GM is going to hit on every pick, no GM is going to hit on every high draft pick.  So the longer a GM remains in the NFL the more his misses are going to add up.  Just like the longer a QB plays the more interceptions he will have... doesn't mean he's a bad QB.

Hogwash.  If Hooker doesn't get better, Ballard's 2017 draft will rival Grigson's 2013 draft, the Bjoern Werner draft.

 

Ballard would have gotten Mack and Walker, and Grigson secured Vontae Davis with 2013's second rounder, who was a CB that shut down the other team's best WR by himself for a few years.

[Coffeedrinker]

5 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Hogwash.  If Hooker doesn't get better, Ballard's 2017 draft will rival Grigson's 2013 draft, the Bjoern Werner draft.

 

Ballard would have gotten Mack and Walker, and Grigson secured Vontae Davis with 2013's second rounder, who was a CB that shut down the other team's best WR by himself for a few years.

No draft could be as bad as Grigson's 2013 draft.  You can give credit to Grigson for Davis, but that was all Pagano pushing for him.

[DougDew]

2 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

No draft could be as bad as Grigson's 2013 draft.  You can give credit to Grigson for Davis, but that was all Pagano pushing for him.

That is the standard bearer around here for bad drafts. 

 

You're trying to give Pagano credit for DB Davis, and the blame for DB Hooker.  But probably not the blame for TJ Green, Djoun Smith, or DE Werner, 

 

Just cut it straight down the line.  Either the GM is responsible for how the draft picks are used or he isn't.

[Coffeedrinker]

20 minutes ago, DougDew said:

That is the standard bearer around here for bad drafts. 

 

You're trying to give Pagano credit for DB Davis, and the blame for DB Hooker. 

If you say so, but that is not what I'm doing.  One Davis was not a draft pick, he was a veteran trade.  Two, I think Hooker was a bad pick.  But from your post it appears you don't really know how the Gm and coaches work together to develop a draft pick.  in a nutshell the GM sits down with the coach and finds out what traits the coach wants in each position.  They then prioritize those traits and assign weight number for each trait.  Then the GM works his his scouts and teaches them what constitutes a X grade for this trait or a Y grade for that trait.  From that they come up with an overall grade for each player.

 

So the GM is responsible for the draft picks, but GMs don't just pick players they like, they pick players that have the traits and attributes the coaches are looking for.  That is why I think Irsay made a mistake not firing Pags the same time he fired Grigs, because CB had to start the whole grading system over again when the Colts hired Reich.

20 minutes ago, DougDew said:

 

But probably not the blame for TJ Green, Djoun Smith, or DE Werner, 

 

Just cut it straight down the line.  Either the GM is responsible for how the draft picks are used or he isn't.

Nice try, again, to change the subject but Davis wasn't a draft pick he was a trade.  And there were several reports at the time that when it was known that Miami was shopping Davis that Pagano went to Irsay and Grigs to talk them into pursuing a deal for him.  Now whether or not Grigs was thinking along the same lines I don't know, there was nothing reported about that.

[DougDew]

2 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

If you say so, but that is not what I'm doing.  One Davis was not a draft pick, he was a veteran trade.  Two, I think Hooker was a bad pick.  But from your post it appears you don't really know how the Gm and coaches work together to develop a draft pick.  in a nutshell the GM sits down with the coach and finds out what traits the coach wants in each position.  They then prioritize those traits and assign weight number for each trait.  Then the GM works his his scouts and teaches them what constitutes a X grade for this trait or a Y grade for that trait.  From that they come up with an overall grade for each player.

 

So the GM is responsible for the draft picks, but GMs don't just pick players they like, they pick players that have the traits and attributes the coaches are looking for.  That is why I think Irsay made a mistake not firing Pags the same time he fired Grigs, because CB had to start the whole grading system over again when the Colts hired Reich.

Nice try, again, to change the subject but Davis wasn't a draft pick he was a trade.  And there were several reports at the time that when it was known that Miami was shopping Davis that Pagano went to Irsay and Grigs to talk them into pursuing a deal for him.  Now whether or not Grigs was thinking along the same lines I don't know, there was nothing reported about that.

Not changing the subject.  You want to make believe that a DC tells a GM that he wants a certain vet CB that he never met, but doesn't tell the GM he wants a college DE he personally worked out.

 

The 2017 draft rivals the 2013.  Period.

[Coffeedrinker]

11 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Not changing the subject.  You want to make believe that a DC tells a GM that he wants a certain vet CB that he never met, but doesn't tell the GM he wants a college DE he personally worked out.

Wow there are so many things wrong about this sentence.

1. Pagano was the HC not the DC

2. Pags scouted Davis when he was with the Ravens

3.  You are the only one mentioning anything about Werner or any other picks.  I was talking about Davis and Hooker.  I've never said anything about any other players.  But you keep trying to change the subject.

Quote

 

The 2017 draft rivals the 2013.  Period.

Hah.  Grigs 2013 draft - All players out of the league within 3 years and no player that earned a starting job.  Vs CB 2017 draft that got starters Mack (Top 10 running back in the NFL), Stewart (earned his way to the starting line up and played well), Walker (starting to get talk as an underrated LB and one that is just below Leonard as the Colts best LB) and Hooker and two other players that didn't fit the Colts but were picked up by other teams almost immediately in Hairston(traded) and Banner.

 

Nice try though.

[DougDew]

4 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Wow there are so many things wrong about this sentence.

1. Pagano was the HC not the DC

2. Pags scouted Davis when he was with the Ravens

3.  You are the only one mentioning anything about Werner or any other picks.  I was talking about Davis and Hooker.  I've never said anything about any other players.  But you keep trying to change the subject.

Hah.  Grigs 2013 draft - All players out of the league within 3 years and no player that earned a starting job.  Vs CB 2017 draft that got starters Mack (Top 10 running back in the NFL), Stewart (earned his way to the starting line up and played well), Walker (starting to get talk as an underrated LB and one that is just below Leonard as the Colts best LB) and Hooker and two other players that didn't fit the Colts but were picked up by other teams almost immediately in Hairston(traded) and Banner.

 

Nice try though.

LOL.  

 

Who's responsible for trading a #1 pick for the vet player the HC called the "rolling ball of butcher knives"?  If it was a bad trade, it must have been RG, right?

 

And when the HC "steals" a number one pick from the GM, how does that impact the GMs ability to be judged upon draft picks alone?

 

You're making it complicated in a feeble attempt to validate some media mob popular narrative you've held for years.

 

Either the GM is responsible for how draft picks are used or he isn't.  That applies to Hooker and Vontae, as well as all the other players you would ....or would not....choose to point out.

 

 

[Coffeedrinker]

3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

LOL.  

 

Who's responsible for trading a #1 pick for the vet player the HC called the "rolling ball of butcher knives"?  If it was a bad trade, it must have been RG, right?

You're a funny little man.  I have no idea who was responsible for Trent.  I don't remember seeing any reports claiming Pagano went to them and asked them to pursue a deal.  But why do you keep bringing in other players into this?  I thought we were talking about Davis and Hooker?

3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

 

And when the HC "steals" a number one pick from the GM, how does that impact the GMs ability to be judged upon draft picks alone?

Why are you trying to turn this into how a GM is judged by draft picks alone?  Oh yeah, you are just trying to change the subject again.

3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

 

You're making it complicated in a feeble attempt to validate some media mob popular narrative you've held for years.

What in the world are you talking about?  I have only talked about Davis and Hooker, you are the one trying to complicate things by bringing in Trent, Werner, Smith and others.

3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

 

Either the GM is responsible for how draft picks are used or he isn't.  That applies to Hooker and Vontae, as well as all the other players you would ....or would not....choose to point out.

I'm sorry you cannot understand some simple concepts.  But your constant changing of the subject is tiresome.  Why cannot you not discuss the topic without bringing in all the major logical fallacies?  In the past few posts there are example of Ad hominem, straw man, false dichotomy, and red herring.

[Moosejawcolt]

11 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Sorry that is the way it came across.  I didn't give him a pass.  I know he liked Hooker as a prospect and not as a safety for Pagano's D.  My point was that by not firing Pagano, it prevented the Colts from moving forward.

As far as the comment about misses are adding up as each year passes... um well yeah, no GM is going to hit on every pick, no GM is going to hit on every high draft pick.  So the longer a GM remains in the NFL the more his misses are going to add up.  Just like the longer a QB plays the more interceptions he will have... doesn't mean he's a bad QB.

So u r saying the misses add up so shouldn't the hits as well???

[Moosejawcolt]

9 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

No draft could be as bad as Grigson's 2013 draft.  You can give credit to Grigson for Davis, but that was all Pagano pushing for him.

People hammer Grigson, but if memory serves me right, his teams never finished below 500.  Is that correct?  I mean isn't it all about wins and losses at the end of the day? What's Ballard's record??

[Coffeedrinker]

On 12/31/2019 at 7:13 PM, Moosejawcolt said:

People hammer Grigson, but if memory serves me right, his teams never finished below 500.  Is that correct?  I mean isn't it all about wins and losses at the end of the day? What's Ballard's record??

I would have to look it up but I know the Colts have lost more than they have won under Ballard so far.  But what does that have to do with the 2013 vs 2017 drafts?

[Coffeedrinker]

On 12/31/2019 at 6:53 PM, Moosejawcolt said:

So u r saying the misses add up so shouldn't the hits as well???

Actually you are saying the misses add up, I was basically saying, duh.

 

And yes the hits add up as well and they are.

[aaron11]

On 12/31/2019 at 8:13 PM, Moosejawcolt said:

People hammer Grigson, but if memory serves me right, his teams never finished below 500.  Is that correct?  I mean isn't it all about wins and losses at the end of the day? What's Ballard's record??

both GMs won when they had luck and lost when they didnt

 

MH was a better backup than JB when luck only played 7 games in 2015

[lollygagger8]

I'm sure it's been said 1000 times, but the Tampa 2 Defense doesn't work without a pass rush. Turay going down didn't help. Houston can't do it all by himself. 

 

I don't think it's ALL on Eberflus, but if they stop playing zone the majority of the time, I believe it will help. 

 

Hooker and Desir were not good this year as well. When Wilson played, he was absolute trash. Moore going down was obviously a huge hit. The offense going 3 and out all the time doesn't help the Defense either. 

 

There seems to be plenty of blame to go around for the defensive woes. 

[Thunderbolt]

Draft or buy the right players would help.

[Two_pound]

I know this sounds impossible but do you guys know the Colts gave up less points this year than playoff super power Houston Texans? Which is really remarkable considering how often Brissett  turnovers and missed fg's set the opposition up with fairly decent field position. I do agree however that the pass defense has to improve, more sacks and smaller completion % allowed. Last year we did a great job covering backs out of the backfield, this year it seemed like we didn't cover them at all.

[Coltsman1788]

Zone defense gets you beat.  Don’t know why Ballard loves that crappy scheme so much.  He has yet to draft the talent needed to play it effectively. Hooker isn’t the ball hawk he envisioned and this team needs more pass rushers off the edges.  Not to mention a playmaker at DT. 

[GoColts8818]

On 12/31/2019 at 8:13 PM, Moosejawcolt said:

People hammer Grigson, but if memory serves me right, his teams never finished below 500.  Is that correct?  I mean isn't it all about wins and losses at the end of the day? What's Ballard's record??

Ballard also hasn’t had Andrew Luck two of his three years here thanks in large part to Grigson failing to build a line to protect him.

[Moosejawcolt]

47 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

Ballard also hasn’t had Andrew Luck two of his three years here thanks in large part to Grigson failing to build a line to protect him.

I am not a Grigson apologists. However, I think it is incorrect to say he didn't build the line.  I beleive he had a lot of bad luck.  If my memory is correct, he did sign a few o line free agent players, however many succumbed to injuries or just didn't work out.

[EastStreet]

On 1/3/2020 at 1:29 PM, Coltsman1788 said:

Zone defense gets you beat.  Don’t know why Ballard loves that crappy scheme so much.  He has yet to draft the talent needed to play it effectively. Hooker isn’t the ball hawk he envisioned and this team needs more pass rushers off the edges.  Not to mention a playmaker at DT. 

Zone can be good with the right pieces, and in the right situation. We absolutely don't have the most important piece, which is an above average pass rush. We were bottom 10 in total QB pressure. I think the lack of mix, or right mix, has also hurt a ton.

[GoColts8818]

13 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I am not a Grigson apologists. However, I think it is incorrect to say he didn't build the line.  I beleive he had a lot of bad luck.  If my memory is correct, he did sign a few o line free agent players, however many succumbed to injuries or just didn't work out.

He tried to build the line but the guys he picked weren’t good outside of Kelly and Haeg to extent.  That’s not bad luck that’s not having an eye for that area of talent.  

[Moosejawcolt]

5 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

He tried to build the line but the guys he picked weren’t good outside of Kelly and Haeg to extent.  That’s not bad luck that’s not having an eye for that area of talent.  

Disagree.  If u looked at some of his free agent pickups,  they were not as bad as u think

[GoColts8818]

15 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Disagree.  If u looked at some of his free agent pickups,  they were not as bad as u think

On the oline they were.  The lack of running game, Luck’s sack and hit rate, and Luck’s injuries backs that up.

[Moosejawcolt]

 He signed some good names they just didn't pan out because of injury and some misses.  

[GoColts8818]

4 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

 He signed some good names they just didn't pan out because of injury and some misses.  

And that means the GM didn’t have an eye for talent in that area.  If he did they would have worked out.  The only two that were really impacted by injury were the guard they signed from the Pats and Mewhort (who was his second best move while here at oline.). Satele, McGlynn, Holms, Thornton, Gosder, and Justice were just bad.

 

lets not forget he also traded Shipley and cut Blythe who have both turned into starters with other teams.  

 

Grigson was as bad as you could be when it came to the oline.