Kuharsky - How Peyton Manning Can Be Seen By Colts

[MR. Blueblood]

Find me a new coach coming to a perennally successful franchise that survived 2 losing seasons.?

Caldwell went to the Super Bowl and he got ashcanned after a 2-14

who are you guys kidding?

Show me some occasions where Caldwell went in and made half-time adjustments that changed the course of the game. Show me some occasions where he game planned (especially this past season) better than the opposing coaches. Show me where he made any changes once Manning couldn't go that put this team in better positions to win.

I can't find any of note, so there is your answer to wanting Caldwell gone.

And that Super Bowl you talked about, he was clearly out coached by Sean Payton

[FanFromtheWasteland]

I know this may be splitting hairs but supervised and observing mean two different things.

Supervised as per Webster’s dictionary means ‘ To oversee or direct work, workers or a project.

To Observe (definition that applies) To notice or perceive. To pay special attention to.

To me that should mean that if Peyton doesn’t care, they should be able to sit in the stands and watch him throw if he is throwing anyway as long as they do not ask or direct him to do something specific.

[UndecidedFrog]

I know this may be splitting hairs but supervised and observing mean two different things.

Supervised as per Webster’s dictionary means ‘ To oversee or direct work, workers or a project.

To Observe (definition that applies) To notice or perceive. To pay special attention to.

To me that should mean that if Peyton doesn’t care, they should be able to sit in the stands and watch him throw if he is throwing anyway as long as they do not ask or direct him to do something specific.

I will let you argue the semantics of it with the Colts' lawyers and the league lawyers, which may or may not lead to arbitration.

However, I know for certain that a ruling will probably not be had before March 8.

Consider the word to monitor.....is that supervision or observation, or both?

[FireJimCaldwell]

I know one thing for sure. His throwing sessions are being videotaped for his own use. He was able to talk Coach Fulmer into adding more cameras at practice so that he could see his play-action fakes and handoffs from multiple angles so that he could see if they looked identical. There is no doubt in my mind that he's not evaluating the throws and work he is doing via film study.

[bayone]

The only gripe I have with that is it's taking a rule designed to limit a team's mandatory offseason workouts and practices, and it's applying it to an evaluation of a player doing rehab. Not only that, but according to the letter of the rule, this only restricts coaches from supervising or directing a practice or workout or film session, not from watching. And again, only coaches. That's the language in the CBA. I don't think it applies to this situation.

While I agree with u on a rule designed to limit a team's mandatory offseason workouts and practices, and it's applying it to an evaluation of a player doing rehab is quite wrong

I think they said club officials , not just coaches, ,

. but do agree strictly speaking if not supervised then why cant it be observed

Now that he is at Duke and if the staff fly out to watch, who knows what else somewhere in the rule book may say that overboard by flying there, legal stuff is beyond me, I know my limits

Last Year Peyton can't get the rehab he wanted by colts staff due to lockout, now due to post lockout agreement & CBA he cant be properly evaluated

WHO Could Have Scripted Such A Thing

[subvet]

Show me some occasions where Caldwell went in and made half-time adjustments that changed the course of the game. Show me some occasions where he game planned (especially this past season) better than the opposing coaches. Show me where he made any changes once Manning couldn't go that put this team in better positions to win.

I can't find any of note, so there is your answer to wanting Caldwell gone.

And that Super Bowl you talked about, he was clearly out coached by Sean Payton

Nice post, I couldn't agree more.

[Superman]

I will let you argue the semantics of it with the Colts' lawyers and the league lawyers, which may or may not lead to arbitration.

However, I know for certain that a ruling will probably not be had before March 8.

Consider the word to monitor.....is that supervision or observation, or both?

Monitor is a different word, but I don't see it in the language that Kuharsky quoted. The words used are "supervise" and "direct," which are different from "observe," which isn't included. If Manning is throwing at LOS as a part of his rehab, why couldn't the coaches and team officials watch? It's not a team-mandated or supervised or directed workout or practice session.

According to this language, the Colts can't have Peyton throw the tree to their satisfaction. They can't say "Peyton, throw a deep out for us." They can't have him do a bench press or put him through the paces like they would a free agent they want to sign. But they can watch him throw. That's my interpretation of the language.

It's probably all moot, because they can release him, and then work him out. And they're probably going to release him and opt out of the bonus.

[bayone]

I will let you argue the semantics of it with the Colts' lawyers and the league lawyers, which may or may not lead to arbitration.

However, I know for certain that a ruling will probably not be had before March 8.

Consider the word to monitor.....is that supervision or observation, or both?

agree, and as said before,. legal stuff is really beyond me but any need for a ruling if attempted would take far to long & go beyond March 8th, the only thing I believe I know is that these agreements take time

[Superman]

While I agree with u on a rule designed to limit a team's mandatory offseason workouts and practices, and it's applying it to an evaluation of a player doing rehab is quite wrong

I think they said club officials , not just coaches, ,

. but do agree strictly speaking if not supervised then why cant it be observed

Now that he is at Duke and if the staff fly out to watch, who knows what else somewhere in the rule book may say that overboard by flying there, legal stuff is beyond me, I know my limits

Last Year Peyton can't get the rehab he wanted by colts staff due to lockout, now due to post lockout agreement & CBA he cant be properly evaluated

WHO Could Have Scripted Such A Thing

The only thing that excerpt says about "club officials" is this:

In addition, nothing herein shall prevent a Club from permitting an individual player to work out on his own on weekends after the Club’s official offseason program has commenced, or at any time after the Club’s official offseason workout program has ended, using Club facilities if he wishes to do so, subject to the restrictions set forth in the immediately preceding sentence of this Subsection, except that

no club official may indicate to a player that such individual workouts are not voluntary

, or that a player’s failure to participate in such workouts will result in the player’s failure to make the Club (or that a player’s failure to participate in a workout program or classroom instruction will result in the player’s failure to make the Club or result in any other adverse consequences affecting his working conditions).

Not applicable, if you ask me.

I do think it's a little different if they fly out to Duke to observe, but I still don't see how that violates the CBA, per the language Kuharsky posted. But in a very organic way, Manning could be throwing to Colts receivers at the practice field, and Irsay, Grigson, Pagano and whoever else could be there, and happen to watch. That's not in violation of what we've read. Not so long as they don't supervise or direct his activities.

[bayone]

Show me some occasions where Caldwell went in and made half-time adjustments that changed the course of the game. Show me some occasions where he game planned (especially this past season) better than the opposing coaches. Show me where he made any changes once Manning couldn't go that put this team in better positions to win.

I can't find any of note, so there is your answer to wanting Caldwell gone.

And that Super Bowl you talked about, he was clearly out coached by Sean Payton

Nice post, I couldn't agree more.

I second That ! ! !!!!!!!!!!!

[bayone]

The only thing that excerpt says about "club officials" is this:

In addition, nothing herein shall prevent a Club from permitting an individual player to work out on his own on weekends after the Club’s official offseason program has commenced, or at any time after the Club’s official offseason workout program has ended, using Club facilities if he wishes to do so, subject to the restrictions set forth in the immediately preceding sentence of this Subsection, except that

no club official may indicate to a player that such individual workouts are not voluntary

, or that a player’s failure to participate in such workouts will result in the player’s failure to make the Club (or that a player’s failure to participate in a workout program or classroom instruction will result in the player’s failure to make the Club or result in any other adverse consequences affecting his working conditions).

Not applicable, if you ask me.

I do think it's a little different if they fly out to Duke to observe, but I still don't see how that violates the CBA, per the language Kuharsky posted. But in a very organic way, Manning could be throwing to Colts receivers at the practice field, and Irsay, Grigson, Pagano and whoever else could be there, and happen to watch. That's not in violation of what we've read. Not so long as they don't supervise or direct his activities.

I would have to agree with u , just saying I am no legal expert at all and what appears correct to me & just, often isnt in the legal detrails

[Peytongirl]

Move up Manning Passing Academy to March 1st this year ;).

[Superman]

I would have to agree with u , just saying I am no legal expert at all and what appears correct to me & just, often isnt in the legal detrails

They use their words very carefully, I think. I don't see this passage as applicable. Nor do I see anything that would preclude Manning from videotaping his workouts and throwing sessions and sharing them with the Colts. He's working out with Duke, and they videotape his throwing sessions, and he sends those to the Colts. How does that violate this section of the CBA?

To me, this section is restricting mandatory and voluntary workouts as set forth by the team, while at the same time allowing players to workout on their own schedule and in their own way at team facilities. I don't see anything there that even suggests that team officials (coaches, management, owners, whatever) can't be present.

[bayone]

They use their words very carefully, I think. I don't see this passage as applicable. Nor do I see anything that would preclude Manning from videotaping his workouts and throwing sessions and sharing them with the Colts. He's working out with Duke, and they videotape his throwing sessions, and he sends those to the Colts. How does that violate this section of the CBA?

To me, this section is restricting mandatory and voluntary workouts as set forth by the team, while at the same time allowing players to workout on their own schedule and in their own way at team facilities. I don't see anything there that even suggests that team officials (coaches, management, owners, whatever) can't be present.

as said On the surface to me u r correct, I just always had trouble reading legaleeze, Medical no problem, legal to me is , well its just word games and often confusing even when seems clear,

Believe me I am not trying to say u r wrong & agree about taping too,

I just hesitate on making legal decisions, Maybe its because since 1980 my best friend is a lawyer and would always ask him important things or my lawyer cousin back in NY who is more brother than cousin & Eli Giant fan so I have no real experience deciphering the language used,

Saying its My Limitations, not yours

[bayone]

Move up Manning Passing Academy to March 1st this year ;).

Perfect answer

[Superman]

as said On the surface to me u r correct, I just always had trouble reading legaleeze, Medical no problem, legal to me is , well its just word games and often confusing even when seems clear,

Believe me I am not trying to say u r wrong & agree about taping too,

I just hesitate on making legal decisions, Maybe its because since 1980 my best friend is a lawyer and would always ask him important things or my lawyer cousin back in NY who is more brother than cousin & Eli Giant fan so I have no real experience deciphering the language used,

Saying its My Limitations, not yours

Yeah, it's really confusing. Even when I think I have my mind wrapped around it, it's still not clear sometimes. Or a decision is made that I think completely misses the fundamental point. If I were Irsay, I'd be calling up De Smith and Goodell and making sure my interpretation of this section is accurate, because I don't think it's saying Colts coaches and personnel can't watch him throw if he's already throwing. It's saying they can't mandate that he throw.

By the way, what this really seems like is a way for Grigson and Pagano to duck the issue about why they haven't seen him throw yet. And that reason seems to be because Irsay is making (or has made) this decision irrespective of Grigson and Pagano.

[eli4625]

Didn't Pagano say in his presser that a strong leader on his team is what he wants? That he had a strong leader in Ray at Baltimore, and now he gets another in Peyton.

Luck can be the strong leader with no one looking over his shoulder to take over.

[Fx Stryker]

Luck can be the strong leader with no one looking over his shoulder to take over.

Yes, a rookie can lead a team better than what is going to be a 15 year veteran. If we don't have Peyton our clear leader will be Jeff if he doesn't retire. Andrew won't be the leader in his early year. Especially with veterans on the team.

[bayone]

Yeah, it's really confusing. Even when I think I have my mind wrapped around it, it's still not clear sometimes. Or a decision is made that I think completely misses the fundamental point. If I were Irsay, I'd be calling up De Smith and Goodell and making sure my interpretation of this section is accurate, because I don't think it's saying Colts coaches and personnel can't watch him throw if he's already throwing. It's saying they can't mandate that he throw.

By the way, what this really seems like is a way for Grigson and Pagano to duck the issue about why they haven't seen him throw yet. And that reason seems to be because Irsay is making (or has made) this decision irrespective of Grigson and Pagano.

in full agreement

[Flash7]

The fine is $100,000 or a few days without practice, or a combination of both. If Irsay and the staff really feel that watching Manning throw is that important, they can go all out and have a full blown training session with every coach, and decision maker present, including taping the training session. They will know that they will get fined, but the decision to spend $100,000 on a $28 Million dollar decision may be worth it.

[Superman]

The fine is $100,000 or a few days without practice, or a combination of both. If Irsay and the staff really feel that watching Manning throw is that important, they can go all out and have a full blown training session with every coach, and decision maker present, including taping the training session. They will know that they will get fined, but the decision to spend $100,000 on a $28 Million dollar decision may be worth it.

The commissioner has the authority to strip draft picks for flagrant disregard for league rules. So if the Colts willingly decide to ignore this rule (even though I don't think it applies, let's just say it does), Goodell can decided to penalize the team with fines and a draft pick.

[Flash7]

The commissioner has the authority to strip draft picks for flagrant disregard for league rules. So if the Colts willingly decide to ignore this rule (even though I don't think it applies, let's just say it does), Goodell can decided to penalize the team with fines and a draft pick.

Gotcha...that makes more sense. As it stands, the fine is pretty strong but you can decide to bite the bullet and take the fine. However, losing drafts is much more risky.

[Superman]

Gotcha...that makes more sense. As it stands, the fine is pretty strong but you can decide to bite the bullet and take the fine. However, losing drafts is much more risky.

Yeah, that's basically what happened with Spygate. Goodell penalized the Pats and Belichick at his own discretion.

[oldunclemark]

Show me some occasions where Caldwell went in and made half-time adjustments that changed the course of the game. Show me some occasions where he game planned (especially this past season) better than the opposing coaches. Show me where he made any changes once Manning couldn't go that put this team in better positions to win.

I can't find any of note, so there is your answer to wanting Caldwell gone.

And that Super Bowl you talked about, he was clearly out coached by Sean Payton

By that isnt the question.....

Find me a perennial contender that had a rookie coach go through two losing seasons and they brought him back for a third..

Understand my original point.

Pagano knows he doesnt have three years if we're losing.

That's why he would want Manning at QB...

Job Security.

....a playoff berth in 2012....would make his stay here easier and ease Luck in...

Nobody totally rebuilds....unless they just like losing

[BuildtheMonster1285]

"I'm Peyton Manning.... and I approved this message"

LOL

[oldunclemark]

I know one thing for sure. His throwing sessions are being videotaped for his own use. He was able to talk Coach Fulmer into adding more cameras at practice so that he could see his play-action fakes and handoffs from multiple angles so that he could see if they looked identical. There is no doubt in my mind that he's not evaluating the throws and work he is doing via film study.

very good point.

There obviuously are tapes..

..and there's no rules about the 'brain trust' watching them..

[oldunclemark]

Move up Manning Passing Academy to March 1st this year ;).

problem solved!

[Phil J]

There obviuously are tapes..

ok, then they should release them. take a guess why they those tapes aren't making out to the public, OR to the Colts front office.

I've got a pretty good guess...... pretty sure you know too.

[MR. Blueblood]

By that isnt the question.....

Find me a perennial contender that had a rookie coach go through two losing seasons and they brought him back for a third..

Understand my original point.

Pagano knows he doesnt have three years if we're losing.

That's why he would want Manning at QB...

Job Security.

....a playoff berth in 2012....would make his stay here easier and ease Luck in...

Nobody totally rebuilds....unless they just like losing

It's very rare that a team goes from a perennial contender to a rookie head coach (Steelers are the last that comes to mind). It's also even rarer that a perennial contender who has a rookie head coach rebuilds. I think you'll find the overhaul more encompassing than what you think. The ax can't fall on everybody all at once, but I'm willing to bet that the make up of this team by 2014 is going to be very different than what it is now. The fans that actually believe Irsay when he says we are rebuilding are going to be a little more patient with the process, those who decide to term it differently or downplay the extent of it won't be so patient.

The culture of this team is changing. Irsay is clearly looking to make the defense more of a priority. IMO that isn't going to be an overnight success. Pagano will be given a longer leash than I think you're giving him. It's going to take Grigson a couple years to even get Pagano the personnel in here that he wants or needs to be successful in the new schemes. The fans might start calling for his head, but Irsay doesn't make his decisions off of the fans, if that was the case Manning wouldn't be getting released on March 8th.

So much of this off season is unprecedented territory for the Colts, so to give you examples of other teams is futile as their situations probably don't translate into our scenario.