Kuharsky - How Peyton Manning Can Be Seen By Colts

[bayone]

By Paul Kuharsky

INDIANAPOLIS -- If Peyton Manning really wanted new Colts GM Ryan Grigson and new Colts coach Chuck Pagano to see him throw, he could easily circumvent the rule that prevents them from watching him before official offseason workout programs begin.

He could hold a media event where cameras would roll on him working and then put it on a loop on NFL Live and beyond. Or he could simply release or leak video of a throwing session.

Tape isn’t as good as live, but it would be much easier to interpret than nothing or reports from medical people. Manning might judge it unbecoming, but there is no avoiding it: Seeing is believing.

That we’ve seen or heard of no such event or tape or a plan for such an event or tape tells us Manning’s not ready to be seen.

The question is, once the Colts cut Manning to avoid his March 8th $28 million bonus, will such evidence of his health status surface as a lure to suitors? And if so, when?

For reference, here’s the section of the CBA that spells out that Grigson and Pagano can’t simply head out to the Colts field house and watch Manning work.

exact rule is then given in article

http://espn.go.com/b...yESPNToday_Team

[HungarianColtsFan]

I think it would be harmful for both Manning and Colts:

1.) humiliating Manning, and he would appear to be singing for the dinner (job)

2.) drawing NFLs attention to Colts, and would cast suspect of violating CBA.

It took quite a time to find it out.

Media circus is going on....

[JoKeR]

What a stupid rule.

[jtcoltsfan]

What a stupid rule.

Maybe not. What if the powers that be were to see him 2 months ago and decide then to cut him, only to see progress continue. I see it as forced hindsight, but the timing is still bad with March 8 being the date and April being when the ptb can see him. There is a reason he hasn't been cut, and I don't feel it is PR. Rip the bandaid off if necessary.

[Peyton and Eli fan]

That seems really beneath Manning to do that - and completely uncharacterisic too given his private nature.

[pacolts56]

"I'm Peyton Manning.... and I approved this message"

[Superman]

Here's the language, per Kuharsky's article:

Prior to the commencement of the Club’s official offseason workout program: (i) players may not receive daily workout payments or workout bonuses of any kind, and may not be paid or reimbursed expenses for travel, board or lodging; (ii)

players are not permitted to participate in Club-supervised workouts, Club-supervised practices, group or individual meetings with coaches

, group or individual film study with coaches, or group or individual playbook study with coaches; (iii) the Club’s strength and conditioning coaches may not direct players’ individual workouts, but may supervise use of the weight room to prevent injury and to correct misuse of equipment; and (iv)

players’ activities may not be directed or supervised by any coaches

. In addition, nothing herein shall prevent a Club from permitting an individual player to work out on his own on weekends after the Club’s official offseason program has commenced, or at any time after the Club’s official offseason workout program has ended, using Club facilities if he wishes to do so, subject to the restrictions set forth in the immediately preceding sentence of this Subsection, except that no club official may indicate to a player that such individual workouts are not voluntary, or that a player’s failure to participate in such workouts will result in the player’s failure to make the Club (or that a player’s failure to participate in a workout program or classroom instruction will result in the player’s failure to make the Club or result in any other adverse consequences affecting his working conditions).

The rule states that it can't be a "club-supervised" workout or practice, and that "players' activities and may not be directed or supervised by any coaches".

I think -- even using a very strict interpretation of the CBA language -- there's no reason why Manning can't throw to players under contract with the Colts while Colts management and coaches stand on the sideline watching. If Manning calls up Addai, Collie and Clark and asks them to come to the practice field so he can throw to them, and if Irsay, Grigson, Pagano, Christensen and Arians are there watching, I don't see how that violates the rule as it's written.

If there's no direction or supervision by the coaches (doesn't say management, it specifically says "coaches," and Irsay and Grigson are not coaches, so more grey area), I don't see the problem.

[Smonroe]

Superman - I think you are spot on. The rule is obviously written to prevent teams from FORCING players to have supervised workouts outside of the approved time period.

[Superman]

Superman - I think you are spot on. The rule is obviously written to prevent teams from FORCING players to have supervised workouts outside of the approved time period.

Not just workouts, but film study, practices, etc. It's talking about mandatory team-organized sessions during the offseason. I don't know if that applies. And I think it can easily be circumvented without breaking the spirit of the rule.

[JoKeR]

I say cut Manning, then bring him back for workouts a few weeks later. If Manning doesn't want to play for anyone else, then we have nothing to worry about.

[oldunclemark]

What a stupid rule.

Maybe I dont know but if Manning works out at the Colts complex and Jim Irsay and Grigson and Pagano...have offices there

how dumb are we to believe that they havent seen him throw.?

Maybe they are simply SAYING they havent due to the rule.

But it isnt a smart rule pertaining to this situation..

..and you are right about cutting Manning...He isnt going anywhere..

[braveheartcolt]

I would suggest the Colts know if Peyton is healthy enough. There is no need for this circus. We all know what it is going to boil down to. Really, we do.

[oldunclemark]

I would suggest the Colts know if Peyton is healthy enough. There is no need for this circus. We all know what it is going to boil down to. Really, we do.

Absolutely...

Jim Irsay knows for sure..and he's the one making the decision...

Pagano has seen enough of Manning that he knows he wants him as QB if he's healthy...

What we may be waiting on is to see if Manning has a setback...

By all second-hand reports he's improving...

They dont want to announce he's back./.only to have his throwing program his a roadblock.

[Superman]

I say cut Manning, then bring him back for workouts a few weeks later. If Manning doesn't want to play for anyone else, then we have nothing to worry about.

It appears that's what going to happen either way, unless there's a way to renegotiate the retention bonus without running afoul of CBA rules.

And by the way, the CBA language that suggests you can't renegotiate the option bonus is much firmer than the language that supposedly prevents the team from watching Manning throw.

[Nadine]

only 10 days until we hear about his contract

If the Colts cannot see Peyton throw...........can anyone else? I mean does this give an advantage to another team looking to sign manning?

[oldunclemark]

It appears that's what going to happen either way, unless there's a way to renegotiate the retention bonus without running afoul of CBA rules.

And by the way, the CBA language that suggests you can't renegotiate the option bonus is much firmer than the language that supposedly prevents the team from watching Manning throw.

You have to ask one of our resident can geniuses..

But its a not rengotiation in fact..they tear up one contract and make another

When you cut him..there is no bonus...

In truth it is renegotiation but its a brother by another mother..

[FireJimCaldwell]

only 10 days until we hear about his contract

If the Colts cannot see Peyton throw...........can anyone else? I mean does this give an advantage to another team looking to sign manning?

He couldn't workout for another team if he is under contract for the Colts. The only way another team could see him throw would be via video.

Now if he were to say workout at Duke, with their receivers on a Tuesday afternoon, and a random GM had just visited Duke to talk to a potential draft choice and was standing in a stairwell and saw him throw, then of course that could happen for any team.

There are plenty of ways around this issue for the Colts and or other teams.

[Superman]

You have to ask one of our resident can geniuses..

But its a not rengotiation in fact..they tear up one contract and make another

When you cut him..there is no bonus...

In truth it is renegotiation but its a brother by another mother..

I'm saying that we are cutting him unless there's a way to renegotiate the bonus without cutting him.

[Smonroe]

only 10 days until we hear about his contract

If the Colts cannot see Peyton throw...........can anyone else? I mean does this give an advantage to another team looking to sign manning?

I was just going to post that - if you take the rule literally, no player can have a supervised workout until the start of that teams offseason sessions. I'm not sure when that is, but I know it's restricted to a certain number of weeks (nine?).

That's why I think that rule doesn't apply to a guy who's 'trying out' or who wants to workout for the team to show he's not injured.

It seems to me that when the Colts were continuously asked if they've watched Peyton work out, they just said "No, because of rule..." and everyone ran with it. I wonder if anyone has actually asked the league for an opinion.

[Happy2BeHere]

I think that in the end we'll all see what happens (hahah what an astout observation!)...and that end is very very near (so we think anyway).

[eli4625]

Absolutely...

Jim Irsay knows for sure..and he's the one making the decision...

Pagano has seen enough of Manning that he knows he wants him as QB if he's healthy...

What we may be waiting on is to see if Manning has a setback...

By all second-hand reports he's improving...

They dont want to announce he's back./.only to have his throwing program his a roadblock.

I would not say whom the head coach wants as his QB at this point even if Peyton is 100%

[oldunclemark]

I would not say whom the head coach wants as his QB at this point even if Peyton is 100%

yes you would.

Pagano's been in the AFC for years.

I would say he wants his first QB as a head coach to be (a healthy) Peyton Manning...

I dont think there's any realsitic doubt about that.

Mr Pagano wants to be succesful and he doesnt have time to 'rebuild'

If we have losing seasons the next 2 years...he wont be here/

[jskinnz]

yes you would.

Pagano's been in the AFC for years.

I would say he wants his first QB as a head coach to be (a healthy) Peyton Manning...

I dont think there's any realsitic doubt about that.

Mr Pagano wants to be succesful and he doesnt have time to 'rebuild'

If we have losing seasons the next 2 years...he wont be here/

I think I am going to start using "oh my" for my phrase of disbelief rather than the customary dear God. It seems slightly less hostile to me while still showing utter disbelief at the offending thought.

So to this post, let me give you a resounding...

Oh my.

[eli4625]

yes you would.

Pagano's been in the AFC for years.

I would say he wants his first QB as a head coach to be (a healthy) Peyton Manning...

I dont think there's any realsitic doubt about that.

Mr Pagano wants to be succesful and he doesnt have time to 'rebuild'

If we have losing seasons the next 2 years...he wont be here/

Why? You don't rebuild over night.

[The Fish]

Maybe Peyton's super PAC could leak the video?

[bayone]

Maybe I dont know but if Manning works out at the Colts complex and Jim Irsay and Grigson and Pagano...have offices there

how dumb are we to believe that they havent seen him throw.?

Maybe they are simply SAYING they havent due to the rule.

But it isnt a smart rule pertaining to this situation..

..and you are right about cutting Manning...He isnt going anywhere..

manning is working out at Duke or UNC

[oldunclemark]

I think I am going to start using "oh my" for my phrase of disbelief rather than the customary dear God. It seems slightly less hostile to me while still showing utter disbelief at the offending thought.

So to this post, let me give you a resounding...

Oh my.

'J' if we have 2 losing seasons in 2012 and 2013..you're be leading the cheers for a new coach

Be honest...

[bayone]

Here's the language, per Kuharsky's article:

Prior to the commencement of the Club’s official offseason workout program: (i) players may not receive daily workout payments or workout bonuses of any kind, and may not be paid or reimbursed expenses for travel, board or lodging; (ii)

players are not permitted to participate in Club-supervised workouts, Club-supervised practices, group or individual meetings with coaches

, group or individual film study with coaches, or group or individual playbook study with coaches; (iii) the Club’s strength and conditioning coaches may not direct players’ individual workouts, but may supervise use of the weight room to prevent injury and to correct misuse of equipment; and (iv)

players’ activities may not be directed or supervised by any coaches

. In addition, nothing herein shall prevent a Club from permitting an individual player to work out on his own on weekends after the Club’s official offseason program has commenced, or at any time after the Club’s official offseason workout program has ended, using Club facilities if he wishes to do so, subject to the restrictions set forth in the immediately preceding sentence of this Subsection, except that no club official may indicate to a player that such individual workouts are not voluntary, or that a player’s failure to participate in such workouts will result in the player’s failure to make the Club (or that a player’s failure to participate in a workout program or classroom instruction will result in the player’s failure to make the Club or result in any other adverse consequences affecting his working conditions).

The rule states that it can't be a "club-supervised" workout or practice, and that "players' activities and may not be directed or supervised by any coaches".

I think -- even using a very strict interpretation of the CBA language -- there's no reason why Manning can't throw to players under contract with the Colts while Colts management and coaches stand on the sideline watching. If Manning calls up Addai, Collie and Clark and asks them to come to the practice field so he can throw to them, and if Irsay, Grigson, Pagano, Christensen and Arians are there watching, I don't see how that violates the rule as it's written.

If there's no direction or supervision by the coaches (doesn't say management, it specifically says "coaches," and Irsay and Grigson are not coaches, so more grey area), I don't see the problem.

Ckeck out the FINES if league rules against u, then again we are talking about 28 million contract, but the fine can be more than just money

Mike Chappell‏ @mchappell51

Follow

Chuck Pagano, Ryan Grigson have not seen Peyton Manning throw. CBA does not allow it. Only docs have access to rehabbing player

1:39 PM - 25 Feb 12 via web · Embed this Tweet

https://twitter.com/...477227873312768

According to Section 21 of the CBA,

players are not allowed to participate in workouts, practices or meetings supervised by club officials until the official off-season program begins.

There are limitations even when the nine-week off-season program begins.

During the first two weeks of that program, strength and conditioning coaches are the only coaches who can be on the field with players. I couldn’t find exceptions for injured players.

Quarterbacks can throw to receivers then, but the head coach and position coaches can’t be there.

Violation of those rules could be costly.

A head coach is subject to a $100,000 fine for the first violation and $250,000 for the second. The team is subject to a $250,000 fine for the first violation and $500,000 for the second.

Violations of the rules governing the off-season also can result

in teams forfeiting off-season practices.

Will that complicate the Colts’ upcoming decision on Manning? That’s questionable. Manning’s future reportedly is going to be owner Jim Irsay’s call. A $28 million payment is looming by March 8, and there is no indication Manning will be ready to throw by then. Irsay might have already made his decision.

http://www.azcentral...ntSomers/156050

[oldunclemark]

Why? You don't rebuild over night.

Find me a new coach coming to a perennally successful franchise that survived 2 losing seasons.?

Caldwell went to the Super Bowl and he got ashcanned after a 2-14

who are you guys kidding?

[eli4625]

Find me a new coach coming to a perennally successful franchise that survived 2 losing seasons.?

Caldwell went to the Super Bowl and he got ashcanned after a 2-14

who are you guys kidding?

Colts are rebuilding from the ground up new offence new defence...Irsay knows this takes time...

[UndecidedFrog]

Colts are rebuilding from the ground up new offence new defence...Irsay knows this takes time...

And it makes little to no sense to rebuild on an old (36 year old) foundation that has been patched up 3 or 4 times at one of the most critical (neck) areas.

[HungarianColtsFan]

And it makes little to no sense to rebuild on an old (36 year old) foundation that has been patched up 3 or 4 times at one of the most critical (neck) areas.

In my opinion it makes sense neither to rebuild on rookie with 0 NFL experience.

Pey-Luck would be a solutions for our problems...

Yes, I know..Manning won't tutor Luck...Luck doesn't want to be benched...we can't afford both...

Only thing is sure: we don't know anything about Manning and his contract, moreover Colts' officials are forbade even to watch hi as long as rehabbing...anything else is speculation.

Anyway, when is the first time when coaches can experience the state of the player on IR? When he is cleared to play by NFL medical personnel?

[bayone]

Here's the language, per Kuharsky's article:

Prior to the commencement of the Club’s official offseason workout program: (i) players may not receive daily workout payments or workout bonuses of any kind, and may not be paid or reimbursed expenses for travel, board or lodging; (ii)

players are not permitted to participate in Club-supervised workouts, Club-supervised practices, group or individual meetings with coaches

, group or individual film study with coaches, or group or individual playbook study with coaches; (iii) the Club’s strength and conditioning coaches may not direct players’ individual workouts, but may supervise use of the weight room to prevent injury and to correct misuse of equipment; and (iv)

players’ activities may not be directed or supervised by any coaches

. In addition, nothing herein shall prevent a Club from permitting an individual player to work out on his own on weekends after the Club’s official offseason program has commenced, or at any time after the Club’s official offseason workout program has ended, using Club facilities if he wishes to do so, subject to the restrictions set forth in the immediately preceding sentence of this Subsection, except that no club official may indicate to a player that such individual workouts are not voluntary, or that a player’s failure to participate in such workouts will result in the player’s failure to make the Club (or that a player’s failure to participate in a workout program or classroom instruction will result in the player’s failure to make the Club or result in any other adverse consequences affecting his working conditions).

The rule states that it can't be a "club-supervised" workout or practice, and that "players' activities and may not be directed or supervised by any coaches".

I think -- even using a very strict interpretation of the CBA language -- there's no reason why Manning can't throw to players under contract with the Colts while Colts management and coaches stand on the sideline watching. If Manning calls up Addai, Collie and Clark and asks them to come to the practice field so he can throw to them, and if Irsay, Grigson, Pagano, Christensen and Arians are there watching, I don't see how that violates the rule as it's written.

If there's no direction or supervision by the coaches (doesn't say management, it specifically says "coaches," and Irsay and Grigson are not coaches, so more grey area), I don't see the problem.

No idea on strict interpretation, just remember how they had to clarify Peyton wasnt having an offical practice in DEC I belive, if that was the case then , i would think, ( Dont Know ) this would be more strict

[UndecidedFrog]

In my opinion it makes sense neither to rebuild on rookie with 0 NFL experience.

Pey-Luck would be a solutions for our problems...

Yes, I know..Manning won't tutor Luck...Luck doesn't want to be benched...we can't afford both...

Only thing is sure: we don't know anything about Manning and his contract, moreover Colts' officials are forbade even to watch hi as long as rehabbing...anything else is speculation.

Anyway, when is the first time when coaches can experience the state of the player on IR? When he is cleared to play by NFL medical personnel?

IMO, you rebuild with youth at all positions.

We do know plenty about Manning's current contract:

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Peyton-Predicament-Part-1.html

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Peyton-Predicament-Part-2.html

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Peyton-Predicament-Part-3-9076.html

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Peyton-Predicament-Part-4.html

We know what happens to the cap if we cut PM before March 8.

We know what happens to the cap if we pay PM, and he cannot go in 2012.

FYI, Peyton was not on IR.

[HungarianColtsFan]

FYI, Peyton was not on IR.

I know. I've asked in general.

[chad72]

I say cut Manning, then bring him back for workouts a few weeks later. If Manning doesn't want to play for anyone else, then we have nothing to worry about.

They are going to have to cut Manning regardless. The question is, will they have enough knowledge to have a ballpark contract in place ready to be signed once he is released, so that they can re-sign him for the new contract.

They are just reducing the time between when he is cut and when they hopefully can re-sign him. Maybe that is wishful thinking on my part hoping they want him back . If they really wanted him gone, he would be gone by now, won't he?

[UndecidedFrog]

I know. I've asked in general.

Yes, during the season, anyone from the team can watch, conduct, supervise, etc. rehabbing workouts.

The CBA rules pertain to off-season activities.

[swflacoltsfans]

This isn't politics. It is football.

[Superman]

Ckeck out the FINES if league rules against u, then again we are talking about 28 million contract, but the fine can be more than just money

Mike Chappell‏ @mchappell51

Follow

Chuck Pagano, Ryan Grigson have not seen Peyton Manning throw. CBA does not allow it. Only docs have access to rehabbing player

1:39 PM - 25 Feb 12 via web · Embed this Tweet

https://twitter.com/...477227873312768

According to Section 21 of the CBA,

players are not allowed to participate in workouts, practices or meetings supervised by club officials until the official off-season program begins.

There are limitations even when the nine-week off-season program begins.

During the first two weeks of that program, strength and conditioning coaches are the only coaches who can be on the field with players. I couldn’t find exceptions for injured players.

Quarterbacks can throw to receivers then, but the head coach and position coaches can’t be there.

Violation of those rules could be costly.

A head coach is subject to a $100,000 fine for the first violation and $250,000 for the second. The team is subject to a $250,000 fine for the first violation and $500,000 for the second.

Violations of the rules governing the off-season also can result

in teams forfeiting off-season practices.

Will that complicate the Colts’ upcoming decision on Manning? That’s questionable. Manning’s future reportedly is going to be owner Jim Irsay’s call. A $28 million payment is looming by March 8, and there is no indication Manning will be ready to throw by then. Irsay might have already made his decision.

http://www.azcentral...ntSomers/156050

The only gripe I have with that is it's taking a rule designed to limit a team's mandatory offseason workouts and practices, and it's applying it to an evaluation of a player doing rehab. Not only that, but according to the letter of the rule, this only restricts coaches from supervising or directing a practice or workout or film session, not from watching. And again, only coaches. That's the language in the CBA. I don't think it applies to this situation.

[Fx Stryker]

I would not say whom the head coach wants as his QB at this point even if Peyton is 100%

Didn't Pagano say in his presser that a strong leader on his team is what he wants? That he had a strong leader in Ray at Baltimore, and now he gets another in Peyton.