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Trueman Walk On

Trueman

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3 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I believe that statistically because Kobe has missed a lot of last second shots (he takes more than LeBron) but in 2010 Kobe had 7 game winning shots believe it or not.

 

If you want to just look at total shots made , sure , I’m sure Kobe ranks up with the best of them (he took enough).

 

I’m taking FG% , total shots made , passes leading the baskets etc. Lebron destroys Kobe in the last 2 minutes stats and the last 30 seconds stats.

 

Lebron makes the best decision for his team and contributed to wins far more than Kobe ever did.

 

Kobe was historically selfish and inefficient in crunch time. At least with MJ he did take a ton of “clutch shots” but he hit an absurd amount of them two. (Almost 50% on game winners I believe, which is beyond amazing).

 

 

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Trueman Walk On

Trueman

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5 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I think had Kobe retired after the 2010 Season he would be looked at as even greater. After winning back to back Titles and getting #5. Because the Lakers stunk his last few years and he was injured it wasn't a good look.

 

Yeah , I didn’t love watching him shoot 5/30 every night on his farewell tour, but it’s his life. I’m not going to hold it against him.

 

Certainly one of the greatest ever , and in my top 15. 

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2006Coltsbestever Ring of Honor

2006Coltsbestever

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10 minutes ago, Trueman said:

 

If you want to just look at total shots made , sure , I’m sure Kobe ranks up with the best of them (he took enough).

 

I’m taking FG% , total shots made , passes leading the baskets etc. Lebron destroys Kobe in the last 2 minutes stats and the last 30 seconds stats.

 

Lebron makes the best decision for his team and contributed to wins far more than Kobe ever did.

 

Kobe was historically selfish and inefficient in crunch time. At least with MJ he did take a ton of “clutch shots” but he hit an absurd amount of them two. (Almost 50% on game winners I believe, which is beyond amazing).

 

 

When it comes to the LeBron vs Kobe debate, of course LeBron is more efficient and shoots a better a FG%, he should. He is basically built like a PF and takes it inside more. Kobe is a SG that shoots a lot from the outside. I think FG% is overrated IMO, Kobe still shot 45% for his career and that is Good. That is basically 9-20 every game which is Good + he got to the line a lot and made 84% of his FT's to average 25 a game. 10-20 is 50% as you know, so 9-20 is Good for a SG that shoots difficult shots while being double teamed.

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Trueman Walk On

Trueman

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10 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

When it comes to the LeBron vs Kobe debate, of course LeBron is more efficient and shoots a better a FG%, he should. He is basically built like a PF and takes it inside more. Kobe is a SG that shoots a lot form the outside. I think FG% is overrated IMO, Kobe still shot 45% for his career and that is Good. That is basically 9-20 every game which is Good + he got to the line a lot and made 84% of his FT's to average 25 a game.

 

If you’re talking about a big man vs a guard , then sure. But getting 50% shooting from your small forward at 27 points a game? That’s insanely valuable.

 

Then you add his defence and passing? It’s game over.

 

One of the biggest differences between MJ and Kobe is their FG%. Michael was far more efficient. It does matter.

 

Kobe is slightly overrated in my eyes ; terrific player , but damn he hurt his team a lot with his selfishness. If he didn’t have Shaq early on, I’m not sure we’re talking about him in the same light. Shaq is probably a top 10 player of all time. Straight up unguard-able in the early 2000’s.

 

Whereas with Mike and Lebron, they would’ve dominated and succeeded on any team. 

 

 

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2006Coltsbestever Ring of Honor

2006Coltsbestever

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4 minutes ago, Trueman said:

 

If you’re talking about a big man vs a guard , then sure. But getting 50% shooting from your small forward at 27 points a game? That’s insanely valuable.

 

Then you add his defence and passing? It’s game over.

 

One of the biggest differences between MJ and Kobe is their FG%. Michael was far more efficient. It does matter.

 

Kobe is slightly overrated in my eyes ; terrific player , but damn he hurt his team a lot with his selfishness. If he didn’t have Shaq early on, I’m not sure we’re talking about him in the same light. Shaq is probably a top 10 player of all time. Straight up unguard-able in the early 2000’s.

 

Whereas with Mike and Lebron, they would’ve dominated and succeeded on any team. 

 

 

I thought the same thing about Kobe early on. I was like he has Shaq so he should win. Problem with that knock against Kobe is he won it all with Pau Gasol as his Robin and an Injured Bynum at Center - 2 in row. So he proved pretty much he didn't need Shaq to win. That moved him into my Top 10 after that.

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2006Coltsbestever Ring of Honor

2006Coltsbestever

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IMO LeBron had a better team in Miami in 2013 than what Kobe had without Shaq in 2009 and 2010 when Kobe won. LeBron had Wade, Bosh, Allen, Birdman, Haslem. Kobe had Gasol, Bynum who was injured a lot, Odom, Fisher, and Artest in 2010. Hell back then Wade was on Kobe's level! LeBron needed a stacked deck to win it all.

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Trueman

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5 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I thought the same thing about Kobe early on. I was like he has Shaq so he should win. Problem with that knock against Kobe is he won it all with Pau Gasol as his Robin and an Injured Bynum at Center - 2 in row. So he proved pretty much he didn't need Shaq to win. That moved him into my Top 10 after that.

 

Yeah, it’s not so much “he won because of Shaq” for me , it’s more “could he have become what he became elsewhere?”

 

For example, some people don’t even know he was drafted by Charlotte. If he hadn’t of been traded to the Lakers with Shaq and eventually Phil Jackson , would he have still been this all-time great?

 

The kid was insanely arrogant and aloof and was terribly selfish. Would he have gone to Charlotte and turned them into what Lebron turned the Cavs into or MJ with the Bulls? I highly doubt it.

 

Kinda like Magic, he went to a historically successful franchise , had a Top 10 center and a hall of fame coach. 

 

Michael had the corpse of George Gervin and little else to begin his career , and he still tore up the league. Lebron came out of high school and took one of the worst franchises ever to the finals (and a terrible roster) in 4 years.

 

I’m just saying Kobe benefited from coming into a great situation. Which he then ruined because of ego.

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Trueman

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6 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

IMO LeBron had a better team in Miami in 2013 than what Kobe had without Shaq in 2009 and 2010 when Kobe won. LeBron had Wade, Bosh, Allen, Birdman, Haslem. Kobe had Gasol, Bynum who was injured a lot, Odom, Fisher, and Artest in 2010. Hell back then Wade was on Kobe's level! LeBron needed a stacked deck to win it all.

 

Well, let’s not get it twisted, that Lakers team was really damn good. I still think they lose to the Celtics if they remained healthy , but whatever.

 

Lebron did go to a good Miami roster, but they also threw a bunch of players together and expected them to figure it out in a year, which in a way , they did. Them losing to Dallas is probably Lebron’s only real blemish on his career , imo. He wasn’t very good - straight up. They were beaten by a team with way more cohesion and chemistry and a brilliant coach.

 

I’m not sure we should use going to Miami as some black mark against Lebron. Look at what the Cav’s surrounded him with during those first 7 years. It was garbage. Seriously.

 

MJ eventually got Scottie and Horace , along with Phil.

 

Kobe had Shaq and terrific role players , along with Phil.

 

Lebron got what? What did the Cavs give him? Eric Snow? Larry Hughes? Dusty old Ben Wallace? Does anyone remember the coaches he had? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2006Coltsbestever Ring of Honor

2006Coltsbestever

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8 minutes ago, Trueman said:

 

Well, let’s not get it twisted, that Lakers team was really damn good. I still think they lose to the Celtics if they remained healthy , but whatever.

 

Lebron did go to a good Miami roster, but they also threw a bunch of players together and expected them to figure it out in a year, which in a way , they did. Them losing to Dallas is probably Lebron’s only real blemish on his career , imo. He wasn’t very good - straight up. They were beaten by a team with way more cohesion and chemistry and a brilliant coach.

 

I’m not sure we should use going to Miami as some black mark against Lebron. Look at what the Cav’s surrounded him with during those first 7 years. It was garbage. Seriously.

 

MJ eventually got Scottie and Horace , along with Phil.

 

Kobe had Shaq and terrific role players , along with Phil.

 

Lebron got what? What did the Cavs give him? Eric Snow? Larry Hughes? Dusty old Ben Wallace? Does anyone remember the coaches he had? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The thing of it is LeBron could've just stayed in Cleveland and had the patience to get the right players to help him. Look at how much luxury tax Dan Gilbert is paying now to put players around him. Instead he left to join Dwyane Wade who at the time was the 3rd best player in the league only behind LeBron and Kobe, + Bosh joined the mix too who was every bit as good as Pau was. Lets not kid ourselves and think the Heat didn't automatically become the favorites to win it all after that happened. They formed a Super Team and if anyone says otherwise they are lying.

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Just now, 2006Coltsbestever said:

The thing of it is LeBron could've just stayed in Cleveland and had the patience to get the right players to help him. Look at how much luxury tax Dan Gilbert is paying now to put players around him. Instead he left to join Dwyane Wade who at the time was the 3rd best player in the league only behind LeBron and Kobe, + Bosh joined the mix too who was every bit as good as Pau was. Lets not kid ourselves and think the Heat didn't automatically become the favorites to win it all after that happened. They formed a Super Team and if anyone says otherwise they are lying.

 

Nah man, 7 years had gone by. Lebron was too good for them to get good draft picks, and they made horrendous signings/trades and destroyed their cap.

 

The Cavs were terribly run before he got there, they were terribly run while he was there, and they remained terribly run after he left. (3 1st overall picks in 4 years).

 

And, if he didn’t come back they would remain horrible right now. Hell, they’re still dysfunctional as hell. It’s a bad franchise , man. Their owner is poison , I don’t care if they spend a lot. He kicked his GM to the curb after 3 straight finals , he fires coaches on a whim , he meddles in their trades ... Gilbert is not a good owner, despite the money he spends. Look at the letter he wrote after Lebron left the first time. What owner does that? I mean , seriously...

——————————

 

As for D-wade , yes he was great , but only for 2 of the seasons there, injuries caught up to him and he was never 06 D-wade with Lebron. Bosh was really good for sure , and underrated. But again, their depth wasn’t that great , and to be honest, those 3 stars weren’t good fits with each other. Bosh and D-Wade had to completely change their games for it to work. Kyrie , for example , was a much better fit for Lebron. But guess what? Gilbert and the intern GM tried to trade him and Kyrie found out. 

 

They joined up and created something together in Miami. Lebron didn’t join an established stacked team like Durant. 

 

Of course the Heat were favourites based on their talent level, but again, to win , you need help. The Cavs weren’t going to give that to Lebron. No chance.

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21isSuperman

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9 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

word is that Frank Vogel will be fired at Orlando when the season ends....2 years into a 4-year deal..

If he would come back to Indy as an assistant, I'd welcome him back next season..

I don't think he'd want to come back as an assistant.  He'll probably want to be a head coach again.  As much as I'd like him and think he'd be an upgrade over McMillan, I don't think he's what the Pacers need to win a championship. 

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2006Coltsbestever

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16 hours ago, Trueman said:

 

Nah man, 7 years had gone by. Lebron was too good for them to get good draft picks, and they made horrendous signings/trades and destroyed their cap.

 

The Cavs were terribly run before he got there, they were terribly run while he was there, and they remained terribly run after he left. (3 1st overall picks in 4 years).

 

And, if he didn’t come back they would remain horrible right now. Hell, they’re still dysfunctional as hell. It’s a bad franchise , man. Their owner is poison , I don’t care if they spend a lot. He kicked his GM to the curb after 3 straight finals , he fires coaches on a whim , he meddles in their trades ... Gilbert is not a good owner, despite the money he spends. Look at the letter he wrote after Lebron left the first time. What owner does that? I mean , seriously...

——————————

 

As for D-wade , yes he was great , but only for 2 of the seasons there, injuries caught up to him and he was never 06 D-wade with Lebron. Bosh was really good for sure , and underrated. But again, their depth wasn’t that great , and to be honest, those 3 stars weren’t good fits with each other. Bosh and D-Wade had to completely change their games for it to work. Kyrie , for example , was a much better fit for Lebron. But guess what? Gilbert and the intern GM tried to trade him and Kyrie found out. 

 

They joined up and created something together in Miami. Lebron didn’t join an established stacked team like Durant. 

 

Of course the Heat were favourites based on their talent level, but again, to win , you need help. The Cavs weren’t going to give that to Lebron. No chance.

Great discussion by the way yesterday. I can tell you really like LeBron. I think he's a Great player and has been the best player in the league for years but it just bugs me how most the media leapfrogs him to 2nd best all-time and people buy into it. He hasn't done anything that Kareem hasn't accomplished. How's he better than Kareem? Kareem has won 6 Championships and 6 League MVP's, and is the all-time leading scorer. Kareem also played in the 80's where all the Centers were 7'0. I have seen games where Kareem has took Hakeem to school in his late 30's. I still maintain Magic was better too, Magic was a better leader and just knew how to win. Nobody else in the history of the NBA has ever won MVP of the Finals as a rookie. Magic would've had more Championships had it not been for Bird. Bird beat him in 1984.

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oldunclemark

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22 hours ago, 21isSuperman said:

I don't think he'd want to come back as an assistant.  He'll probably want to be a head coach again.  As much as I'd like him and think he'd be an upgrade over McMillan, I don't think he's what the Pacers need to win a championship. 

 

I agree that Frank is  a good coach and is obviously familiar with our players and certainly I dont think he ever wanted to leave.   But he's not going to get another head coaching offer..immediately ..I don't think..

...Nate McMillen was a head coach for awhile and then resurfaced in Indy as an assistant.

I believe that's the way it has to go for Frank now..  As awkward as it might be for Frank to be an assistant under Nate, there are a couple of former NBA head coaches who are assistants now...

 

     I think McMillen is the NBA coach of the year...Considering the injuries to our big players, he's been a steady leader with a lot of new troops and we're a playoff team again. 

But I always thought Frank was an excellent coach and represented the franchise well.

If a couple of years as an assistant on the Pacers earns him  another chance as a head coach, its a win-win for the coach and the franchise...

Edited by oldunclemark
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oldunclemark

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Steve Kerr has apparently said (I heard it on Pacers' radio) that Steph Curry will not play the rest of the regular season and is also unlikely to play in the Western Conference quarterfinals.

If that';s Golden State vs Utah, that's a big issue

Edited by oldunclemark
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