What Changes in the NFL would you like to make?

[southwest1]

But you need to draw that line. A felony conviction ends your career.

Its not vague. If its judged a felony in the state you committed the crime, you're done.

No further appeal. No suing the NFL. You had your day in court and plenty of money for the best lawyers.

It no checkered past...its what you do when you are under contract.

There has to be some hint of a desire among players and their union that they WANT to limit crimes by players, not

just try to get them reinstated.

I just don't see how NFL owners & the Players Association can unilaterally ban all NFL athletes with a felony though. What if an athlete committed murder in self dense of protecting  his wife & child from harm? 

 

I get that it's a honor to play in the league & you're right it is OUM, but here's where the real problem lies: Squeaky clean players aren't always the best athletes & if your skill set is elite with a checkered past or not some team will always take a flyer on you because this game is all about winning games in November not who is the perfect role model every day. 

 

Plus, GMs can't always find morally upstanding individuals who can win games consistently week to week. So, Michael Vick didn't deserve a 2nd chance with then Andy Reid's Philadelphia Eagles to you? I don't know if I can subscribe to a total felon ban in the NFL. Talent will always find it's way on the field regardless of a players personal life/indiscretions no matter what. 

 

I will give you this much OUM: I was overjoyed when INDY didn't sign Greg Hardy, but it's not fair to prohibit other teams like Dallas from inking a deal with him.  

[Jason_]

I just don't see how NFL owners & the Players Association can unilaterally ban all NFL athletes with a felony though. What if an athlete committed murder in self dense of protecting  his wife & child from harm?   Would said player actually get convicted of felony murder in that situation though?

 

I get that it's a honor to play in the league & you're right it is OUM, but here's where the real problem lies: Squeaky clean players aren't always the best athletes & if your skill set is elite with a checkered past or not some team will always take a flyer on you because this game is all about winning games in November not who is the perfect role model every day.  See here's the thing...I don't think OUM is asking players to be perfect, model citizens or role models.  Just stop getting caught committing felonies.  Commit a felony...you're done.  I'm totally down with that. 

 

Plus, GMs can't always find morally upstanding individuals who can win games consistently week to week. So, Michael Vick didn't deserve a 2nd chance with then Andy Reid's Philadelphia Eagles to you? I don't know if I can subscribe to a total felon ban in the NFL. Talent will always find it's way on the field regardless of a players personal life/indiscretions no matter what.  No, I don't think Vick deserved a second chance.  And that kind of talent won't find it's way on the field if the NFL were to implement this kind of ban. Sadly, they're more concerned with the bottom line/$$$ than anything else.

 

I will give you this much OUM: I was overjoyed when INDY didn't sign Greg Hardy, but it's not fair to prohibit other teams like Dallas from inking a deal with him.  

[crazycolt1]

Problem 1: Your comment indicates that profit is more important than player integrity.  I do not agree with that.  I know anyone with any clout in the NFL is going to agree, but I don't care.  This is about what we'd like to see, not what we think we ever will see.

 

Problem 2: I still disagree.  I don't think current deterrents work because they're not properly enforced and are not strict enough.  You tell players that they will receive a lifetime ban from playing in the NFL if they are ever convicted of any felony and I do think you'll see player-related crime drop.  Maybe not at first, but after the first player or 2 receive bans then the rest of the league would know the NFL means business.  Rehabilitation is great, but it's only going to work with guys who actually want to be rehabilitated.  The majority will simply follow the rules set forth for them to be able to be considered fully rehabilitated and then, once out of the program, will go back to their normal behavior.

I think the problem is way over blown. Felony arrest for NFL players are pretty low. We are making an issue out of how many players? Right now there are over 2,800 players in the NFL. What percentage of those over 2,800 players have ben arrested for a felony? Pretty low I think. You also have to keep in mind the players do have a union. You say make rules that do this and do that but yet fail to mention anything about the union. All this stuff is bargained for, the owner can't just make rules for the sake of making rules. It is not that simple. The term "for the integrity of the league" is pretty broad as it is. IMO current deterrents do work if you look at the percentages. It seems some have the mindset that this is a huge problem Is it really? Or is it a big deal because these players are under a microscope and face the fans and the media making a big deal out of it? The same old thing you hear about cops, lawyers, politicians, doctors and anyone else. It only takes a very few to put a bad light on the rest.

[southwest1]

Problem 1: Your comment indicates that profit is more important than player integrity.  I do not agree with that.  I know anyone with any clout in the NFL is going to agree, but I don't care.  This is about what we'd like to see, not what we think we ever will see.

 

Problem 2: I still disagree.  I don't think current deterrents work because they're not properly enforced and are not strict enough.  You tell players that they will receive a lifetime ban from playing in the NFL if they are ever convicted of any felony and I do think you'll see player-related crime drop.  Maybe not at first, but after the first player or 2 receive bans then the rest of the league would know the NFL means business.  Rehabilitation is great, but it's only going to work with guys who actually want to be rehabilitated.  The majority will simply follow the rules set forth for them to be able to be considered fully rehabilitated and then, once out of the program, will go back to their normal behavior.

You make a very compelling case Jason on the integrity & stiff enforcement fronts Jason & your thoughts are well articulated, but I do like to play devil's advocate occasionally & this appears to be 1 of those times. This league is all about money with violent collision videos for sale nonstop as well as endorsement deals. Remember when we say Janet Jackson's blurry cleavage for a few seconds? Why was the Commissioner so outraged when this form of family entertainment also shows beer & condom commercials? Rodger is aware that the profitability of this sport also earned him $44,000,000 in 2014 right? The NFL is not a nonprofit business. 

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/roger-goodell-made-more-44-million-last-wait-211537621--nfl.html

 

Crimes don't drop just by changing penalties. Natural talent on an elite level will always be given more weight than a person's legal woes because at the end of the day you need a few nasty guys/rough riders to get the job done. Coaches are paid to win Playoff games not be warm, lovable, & fuzzy. 

[southwest1]

 

I just don't see how NFL owners & the Players Association can unilaterally ban all NFL athletes with a felony though. What if an athlete committed murder in self dense of protecting  his wife & child from harm?   Would said player actually get convicted of felony murder in that situation though?

 

I get that it's a honor to play in the league & you're right it is OUM, but here's where the real problem lies: Squeaky clean players aren't always the best athletes & if your skill set is elite with a checkered past or not some team will always take a flyer on you because this game is all about winning games in November not who is the perfect role model every day.  See here's the thing...I don't think OUM is asking players to be perfect, model citizens or role models.  Just stop getting caught committing felonies.  Commit a felony...you're done.  I'm totally down with that. 

 

Plus, GMs can't always find morally upstanding individuals who can win games consistently week to week. So, Michael Vick didn't deserve a 2nd chance with then Andy Reid's Philadelphia Eagles to you? I don't know if I can subscribe to a total felon ban in the NFL. Talent will always find it's way on the field regardless of a players personal life/indiscretions no matter what.  No, I don't think Vick deserved a second chance.  And that kind of talent won't find it's way on the field if the NFL were to implement this kind of ban. Sadly, they're more concerned with the bottom line/$$$ than anything else.

 

I will give you this much OUM: I was overjoyed when INDY didn't sign Greg Hardy, but it's not fair to prohibit other teams like Dallas from inking a deal with him.  

 

One can never predict what a jury is going to do though especially if a prosecutor is committed to making an example of a high profile athlete. 

 

It's noble to have a desire to curb serious criminal offenses league wide & I do applaud efforts to do just that. However, an unrealistic quest for perfection will become the overall result though. It's like establishing a thresh hold that very few individuals can meet. Look, I get that not drinking heavily & being out past midnight can contribute to potential crime breaking activities but at some point no corporation can legalize morality & therein lies the problem: Where does an athlete's private life end & a franchises desire to control the player like a robot start? 

 

I'm fine with random drug tests stipulations given how much owners invest in quality players & a substance abuse/domestic abuse policy as well, but not a complete felony ban. 

 

If a person objects to what Vick did on an animal cruelty level, that's totally understandable to me, but Michael served his sentence & he deserved a fresh start & clean slate to me because he served his debt to society in full & America is supposed to be the land of 2nd chances. Prisoners in this world or ex cons rather are a lot like disabled people in this world often ignored, dismissed, & not always given a chance to succeed  & thrive. JMO. 

[Jason_]

One can never predict what a jury is going to do though especially if a prosecutor is committed to making an example of a high profile athlete. 

 

It's noble to have a desire to curb serious criminal offenses league wide & I do applaud efforts to do just that. However, an unrealistic quest for perfection will become the overall result though. It's like establishing a thresh hold that very few individuals can meet. Look, I get that not drinking heavily & being out past midnight can contribute to potential crime breaking activities but at some point no corporation can legalize morality & therein lies the problem: Where does an athlete's private life end & a franchises desire to control the player like a robot start? 

 

If a person objects to what Vick did on an animal cruelty level, that's totally understandable to me, but Michael served his sentence & he deserved a fresh start & clean slate to me because he served his debt to society in full & America is supposed to be the land of 2nd chances. Prisoners in this world or ex cons rather are a lot like disabled people in this world often ignored, dismissed, & not always given a chance to succeed  & thrive. JMO. 

 

no one is asking for perfection or talking about legalizing morality.  We're simply talking about not committing felonies...we're not even saying players can't break any laws at all..just felonies.  IMO, if a player is convicted of a felony then no, they don't deserve a second chance to play in the NFL.  It's really not that difficult to avoid committing felonies...I've been successfully avoiding such things for 38 years.

[Jason_]

I think the problem is way over blown. Felony arrest for NFL players are pretty low. We are making an issue out of how many players? Right now there are over 2,800 players in the NFL. What percentage of those over 2,800 players have ben arrested for a felony? Pretty low I think.

 

I don't care if it's only 1 player per year.  I would still implement this type of rule if I were able to.

 

You also have to keep in mind the players do have a union. You say make rules that do this and do that but yet fail to mention anything about the union. All this stuff is bargained for, the owner can't just make rules for the sake of making rules.

 

 

lol...of course.  That's why this is a "what change would YOU LIKE TO MAKE"...not a "what change do you think will be made" thread. ;)

[bababooey]

I really agree with the earlier stat times. I have to get up at 2 am for work so those night games are killers for me

It's not as bad as NBA finals games and all star games starting after 9 and ending after midnight on school/work nights. I was pretty happy when the NBA all star game got upstaged out of nowhere by SNL 40th anniversary special this year. Maybe that will teach them a lesson.

[southwest1]

no one is asking for perfection or talking about legalizing morality.  We're simply talking about not committing felonies...we're not even saying players can't break any laws at all..just felonies.  IMO, if a player is convicted of a felony then no, they don't deserve a second chance to play in the NFL.  It's really not that difficult to avoid committing felonies...I've been successfully avoiding such things for 38 years.

I see what you're saying Jason, but if an athlete commits a felony like Aaron Hernandez did, you simply let the trail pan out & once they are convicted the contract is torn up & considered null & void anyway so why is an across the board penalty needed in the next CBA? It's not really necessary. 

[Jason_]

I see what you're saying Jason, but if an athlete commits a felony like Aaron Hernandez did, you simply let the trail pan out & once they are convicted the contract is torn up & considered null & void anyway so why is an across the board penalty needed in the next CBA? It's not really necessary. 

 

Because some people don't believe that former felons should be able to play in the NFL.  That's just a fundamental difference in philosophy and that's fine. 

[southwest1]

Because some people don't believe that former felons should be able to play in the NFL.  That's just a fundamental difference in philosophy and that's fine. 

I can respect that Jason. We're cool. I'm just leery in dealing with absolute bans with no exceptions whatsoever especially since if a owner has a mechanism/loophole to get out of paying a now convicted athlete. 

 

Society already treats former law breakers as a black sheep, but brushing them under the rug solves nothing, it just compounds the problem. Yes I know all it means is that can't be employed in the NFL nowhere else. 

 

Yes, you're right. We will never see eye to eye on this & that's perfectly fine.

 

This is what I meant by "legalizing morality"...It should be up to individual owners if they want to sign a player not some enforcement committee who dictates what  31 other teams should do regarding their rosters. 

[Jason_]

I can respect that Jason. We're cool. I'm just leery in dealing with absolute bans with no exceptions whatsoever especially since if a owner has a mechanism/loophole to get out of paying a now convicted athlete. 

 

 

 

Well see that goes to the base of my point...there are too many loopholes.  Players (people in general really but especially the wealthy) know they can get out of just about any kind of trouble with the right lawyers and legal manipulation.  Yes, I have some serious issues with our legal system.  IMO the only way that things like this can be eradicated completely are with absolute bans. And if something happens to where the player was able to appeal and get the conviction overturned, then great...they're back in.

 

I'm not entirely clear on what you meant about the owner having a loophole to get out of paying a convicted athlete though.  Are you referring to the way things are now, or if such a ban were to be implemented?

[Superman]

Because some people don't believe that former felons should be able to play in the NFL.  That's just a fundamental difference in philosophy and that's fine. 

 

Seems overly strict, IMO. Former felons are allowed to do everything else, eventually. Why should the NFL enact a standard above and beyond every other business and industry?

[jvan1973]

Because some people don't believe that former felons should be able to play in the NFL. That's just a fundamental difference in philosophy and that's fine.

It would be a pretty terrible world if people convicted of felonies couldn't be employed. What do you think they would do to make ends meet?

[Jason_]

It would be a pretty terrible world if people convicted of felonies couldn't be employed. What do you think they would do to make ends meet?

We're did I say they couldn't be employed?

[Jason_]

Seems overly strict, IMO. Former felons are allowed to do everything else, eventually. Why should the NFL enact a standard above and beyond every other business and industry?

It's not a standard above and beyond evert other business. There are a lot of companies that will not hire you if you have a felony conviction on your record....the company I work for included.

[Superman]

It's not a standard above and beyond evert other business. There are a lot of companies that will not hire you if you have a felony conviction on your record....the company I work for included.

 

Ever?

 

The job I have requires licensing. You can't be licensed for at least 7 years after a felony. Didn't mean to overstate my point; I think I was struck by the "former" felon part, which seems like "if you ever had a felony, you can't work for us." Not really an issue in the NFL.

 

The real truth is that pro sports is a talent driven business. If you have transcendent talent, people will put up with your baggage. People sometimes make mistakes and are entitled to second chances, but it's also okay to hold people accountable for their actions. I just wouldn't say, across the board, that a prior felony disqualifies you, no matter what.

[Jason_]

Ever?

The job I have requires licensing. You can't be licensed for at least 7 years after a felony. Didn't mean to overstate my point; I think I was struck by the "former" felon part, which seems like "if you ever had a felony, you can't work for us." Not really an issue in the NFL.

The real truth is that pro sports is a talent driven business. If you have transcendent talent, people will put up with your baggage. People sometimes make mistakes and are entitled to second chances, but it's also okay to hold people accountable for their actions. I just wouldn't say, across the board, that a prior felony disqualifies you, no matter what.

Ah, no the discussion was about players who are convicted of a felony while under contract with an nfl team, not about players with priors.

As for the company I work for, that's my understanding. I don't know if there's a time period that can elapse that would allow a prior felon to be hired. I do know that if an active employee is convicted of a felony then they are terminated without exception. Well again, that's my understanding.

[Jason_]

Ever?

The job I have requires licensing. You can't be licensed for at least 7 years after a felony. Didn't mean to overstate my point; I think I was struck by the "former" felon part, which seems like "if you ever had a felony, you can't work for us." Not really an issue in the NFL.

The real truth is that pro sports is a talent driven business. If you have transcendent talent, people will put up with your baggage. People sometimes make mistakes and are entitled to second chances, but it's also okay to hold people accountable for their actions. I just wouldn't say, across the board, that a prior felony disqualifies you, no matter what.

Oh and I actually disagree with one of your points...like every other business, the nfl is a money driven business. So the league will do their best to overlook as much as possible to make sure the best talent is on the field. So ok, not really a disagreement per se

[jvan1973]

We're did I say they couldn't be employed?

That is their craft. All people deserve a second chance as long as it isn't a crime that involves a ten year plus sentence.

Once you have paid your debt to society, you should be able to work your craft

[Jason_]

That is their craft. All people deserve a second chance as long as it isn't a crime that involves a ten year plus sentence.

Once you have paid your price to society, you should be able to work your craft

I don't care what their craft is. It's the responsibility of all of us to follow the law...if they dont have enough self control to not commit a felony then they don't deserve to be allowed to play in the nfl. That is my opinion.

[Superman]

Ah, no the discussion was about players who are convicted of a felony while under contract with an nfl team, not about players with priors.

As for the company I work for, that's my understanding. I don't know if there's a time period that can elapse that would allow a prior felon to be hired. I do know that if an active employee is convicted of a felony then they are terminated without exception. Well again, that's my understanding.

 

There was discussion about Michael Vick earlier. Probably the prime example. The Falcons cut him and sued him for previously paid bonus money. He spent two years in prison, and then the NFL made him "earn" reinstatement. I don't think anyone should ever say "I deserve a second chance." But sometimes, you just say that the time has been served, he's paid his debt to society, and we don't have to spend a whole lot of energy fussing about the fact that he had a felony.

 

Anyways, like you said, this thread is about changes you'd make, not changes you think will be made. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[jvan1973]

I don't care what their craft is. It's the responsibility of all of us to follow the law...if they dont have enough self control to not commit a felony then they don't deserve to be allowed to play in the nfl. That is my opinion.

What's the difference in working in the NFL as opposed to selling insurance if that's your stance?

[Superman]

Oh and I actually disagree with one of your points...like every other business, the nfl is a money driven business. So the league will do their best to overlook as much as possible to make sure the best talent is on the field. So ok, not really a disagreement per se

 

Lots of competing interests in any $10b/year business. For teams, talent leads to winning, which leads to money. For the league, talent leads to entertainment, which leads to money.

[Jason_]

What's the difference in working in the NFL as opposed to selling insurance if that's your stance?

I've already said...there are other companies that will fire you without question if you're convicted of a felony.

You can't conclusively say that a convicted felon would be able to sell insurance because I'm sure there are some insurance companies that have such restrictions.

Bottom line though, playing in the nfl should be a privilege, not a right. It's really not that difficult to go through life without committing a felony.

[Jason_]

Lots of competing interests in any $10b/year business. For teams, talent leads to winning, which leads to money. For the league, talent leads to entertainment, which leads to money.

Right. In the end it's all about money, but it's the talent that brings in the money.

[jvan1973]

I've already said...there are other companies that will fire you without question if you're convicted of a felony.

You can't conclusively say that a convicted felon would be able to sell insurance because I'm sure there are some insurance companies that have such restrictions.

Bottom line though, playing in the nfl should be a privilege, not a right. It's really not that difficult to go through life without committing a felony.

Hmnn, you would be surprised

[jvan1973]

Right. In the end it's all about money, but it's the talent that brings in the money.

That's all companies.

[Jason_]

Hmnn, you would be surprised

About what?

[Jason_]

That's all companies.

Of course it is

[jvan1973]

About what?

How easy it is to catch a felony charge on some small thing.

[Jason_]

How easy it is to catch a felony charge on some small thing.

I didn't say anything about a felony charge. If I did it was a typo. We were discussing a felony conviction.

[jvan1973]

I didn't say anything about a felony charge. If I did it was a typo. We were discussing a felony conviction.

Basically the same thing if you're young and stupid. Most of us dodged bullets

[Jason_]

Basically the same thing if you're young and stupid. Most of us dodged bullets

Lol. No not really

[southwest1]

Well see that goes to the base of my point...there are too many loopholes.  Players (people in general really but especially the wealthy) know they can get out of just about any kind of trouble with the right lawyers and legal manipulation.  Yes, I have some serious issues with our legal system.  IMO the only way that things like this can be eradicated completely are with absolute bans. And if something happens to where the player was able to appeal and get the conviction overturned, then great...they're back in.

 

I'm not entirely clear on what you meant about the owner having a loophole to get out of paying a convicted athlete though.  Are you referring to the way things are now, or if such a ban were to be implemented?

All I really meant is that contracts are already structured in such a way that in the event of a felony conviction accompanied with a longterm sentence behind bars that the contract is no longer binding in most cases because it's not. To answer your question, I was referring to the way things are now. I just don't believe 32 NFL owners would ever agree on a strict felony ban prohibition clause. That's why the league always lets the courts handle criminal matters 1st before they chime in on punishment issues.

 

I get what you're driving at: If you enact a felony ban NFL protocol, that will compel players to be more mindful of how they conduct themselves off the field from a recreational standpoint. A player will ideally go I'd better be more careful of my surrounding & the people I hang with or a stand to lose a ton of money & a lavish lifestyle that I might not find in another line of work so quickly if ever again.  

 

However, like Jvan said you'd be surprised what qualifies as a felony today & how would the league enforce a penalty on a player that a DA in 1 state deems a felony while another DA considers a misdemeanor? You can't. 

[Jason_]

 

However, like Jvan said you'd be surprised what qualifies as a felony today & how would the league enforce a penalty on a player that a DA in 1 state deems a felony while another DA considers a misdemeanor? You can't. 

 

Simple...if you are convicted of a crime that is considered a felony in whatever state you were prosecuted, then bam...you're out.

 

Also, the DA doesn't determine whether a crime is a felony or misdemeanor...they determine specifically for which crime they can prosecute a criminal based on the evidence they have. 

 

I do get your point though.  What if a player is charged with a felony but winds up accepting a plea bargain so they wind up pleading guilty to a lesser charge which is only a misdemeanor.  The player still committed a felony, but because of the plea bargain is only officially convicted of a misdemeanor.  All sorts of grey areas.  I know there's no chance of anything like this ever happening.  This is all make-believe fun to pass the time until things pick up.

[southwest1]

  All sorts of grey areas.  I know there's no chance of anything like this ever happening.  This is all make-believe fun to pass the time until things pick up.

On this, we can both agree 100% Jason. Yes, it is a fun topic to speculate about prior to the start of training camp. Well said. 

[Valpo2004]

I think I would make rookie deals especially those past the 2nd round include incentives so that a player drafted in those rounds could receive more money.  

 

It doesn't have to be a lot, but when guys past the 2nd round they are so underpaid based on market terms it's criminal and yet they have to play out this 4 year contract and play hard all 4 years and hope that they don't have a injury come up and kill their value or end their career.

[BOTT]

Players committing felonies isn't a big deal?  Or were you referring to something else being a big deal?  For once, I actually agree with OUM.  If you're in the NFL and commit a felony...you're out...done....no coming back.  Hell I say also include a mandatory 1 year suspension with no chance of appeal if a misdemeanor is committed. 

 

As others have said, no way it ever happens but imo it should.  It's a privilege to play in the NFL.  I'm not saying every NFL player has to be a choir boy...but is it really that difficult to not break the law?

Wow, a one year suspension for a misdemeanor? That's extremely harsh.

[Jason_]

Wow, a one year suspension for a misdemeanor? That's extremely harsh.

I agree. That was kind of the point