Let's rank some QBs!

[Superman]

Are you ignoring RGs rookie year where he was ROY? His first season overall was very impressive and then he blew out his knee and had a horrible all around team last year as well as being limited from his injury. I would still put him above Foles and that is not to take anything away from Foles but I have to see more. I also think RG has something to prove as well but he is the more established QB IMO at this point.

 

From a QBing standpoint, Griffin's rookie year wasn't that impressive. I'm not knocking him, but he ran a very simplistic system for a team that kept as much of the burden off of his shoulders as possible. Whether Griffin can handle more responsibility or not remains to be seen; I know he can make the throws, but he's never been asked to really play pro-style QB. I think Foles played the position much better than Griffin did, and I think he has the fundamental skills to be a really good QB. 

 

How their careers shape up, I don't know. But Griffin's ROY in 2012 isn't a reason to consider a better QB than Foles, or anyone else.

[amfootball]

From a QBing standpoint, Griffin's rookie year wasn't that impressive. I'm not knocking him, but he ran a very simplistic system for a team that kept as much of the burden off of his shoulders as possible. Whether Griffin can handle more responsibility or not remains to be seen; I know he can make the throws, but he's never been asked to really play pro-style QB. I think Foles played the position much better than Griffin did, and I think he has the fundamental skills to be a really good QB. 

 

How their careers shape up, I don't know. But Griffin's ROY in 2012 isn't a reason to consider a better QB than Foles, or anyone else.

I disagree but what else is new. ;)   I get that RG didn't run a pro style offense but I take nothing from him in 2012. His numbers (TDs vs picks) and ability to help his team with his arm and legs was very, very impressive. That being said, I loved what I saw from Foles as well last year and he may end up being the better QB but I need more than just a handful of games. I rooting for both of them but maybe moreso for RG as I think his FO/coaching situation was just awful last year.

[Superman]

I disagree but what else is new. ;)   I get that RG didn't run a pro style offense but I take nothing from him in 2012. His numbers (TDs vs picks) and ability to help his team with his arm and legs was very, very impressive. That being said, I loved what I saw from Foles as well last year and he may end up being the better QB but I need more than just a handful of games. I rooting for both of them but maybe moreso for RG as I think his FO/coaching situation was just awful last year.

 

I'm not arguing against his ROY award. His numbers support him winning that. I just don't think he played QB in 2012 at a higher level than Foles did in 2013. Not trying to take anything away from him.

 

It's like Tebow in 2011. He played his role very well, and it helped the team win games. But it wasn't high quality QBing.

[amfootball]

I'm not arguing against his ROY award. His numbers support him winning that. I just don't think he played QB in 2012 at a higher level than Foles did in 2013. Not trying to take anything away from him.

 

It's like Tebow in 2011. He played his role very well, and it helped the team win games. But it wasn't high quality QBing.

Yeah, I know what you are saying and many feel that way but I don't take anything away from RG helping his team win with his legs and arm. I assume you are not comparing him to Tebow as that would be a horrible comparison but are emphasizing the run game. I see QBing as more than just being able to pass or pass in a certain offense. If anything a simplistic offense can be easier to defend but because RG was such a threat with his legs, it opened the short passes and deep ones too as well as the run game for Morris.

[Jason_]

I disagree but what else is new. ;)   I get that RG didn't run a pro style offense but I take nothing from him in 2012. His numbers (TDs vs picks) and ability to help his team with his arm and legs was very, very impressive. That being said, I loved what I saw from Foles as well last year and he may end up being the better QB but I need more than just a handful of games. I rooting for both of them but maybe moreso for RG as I think his FO/coaching situation was just awful last year.

 

Foles has only played in 8 fewer games than RG3 so it's not like there's a huge disparity between the sample sizes for the 2.  In fact, in 2013 they both played in the same number of games. ;)

[Superman]

Yeah, I know what you are saying and many feel that way but I don't take anything away from RG helping his team win with his legs and arm. I assume you are not comparing him to Tebow as that would be a horrible comparison but are emphasizing the run game. I see QBing as more than just being able to pass or pass in a certain offense. If anything a simplistic offense can be easier to defend but because RG was such a threat with his legs, it opened the short passes and deep ones too as well as the run game for Morris.

 

I don't know that Griffin can't handle a pro-style offense. I do know that he hasn't been asked to do so. His QBing was based off of simple reads, he often only used one side of the field, and lots of his production was off of play action. There's nothing wrong with any of that; it was productive, and he didn't make a lot of mistakes. But the quality of the offense and the burden he had to bear was much less than that of other QBs. He did his job well, but his job was made easier by design. I think that's good coaching, for handling a rookie QB. You can't run that kind of offense for long, though.

 

Tebow also ran a very basic, limited offense. We know that Tebow struggles with more responsibilities, that he struggles with some of the throws, etc. So his coaches dumbed it down as much as possible, to take the burden off of him. He did okay with that limited offense, but the quality of the QBing wasn't very high. It's not about him using his legs; I don't mind a QB using his legs to make plays. It's about the way the coaches limited the responsibilities and burdens of the QB. There's nothing wrong with it, and the Broncos restricted Tebow way more than Washington restricted Griffin. But when you are comparing a QB in a limited offense with one in a more advanced offense, you should acknowledge the difficulty of what they were asked to do, and the quality of their performances.

 

So when I compare Griffin to Foles, I see one QB that was asked to do about 60% of what the other one was asked to do, and they both produced at pretty similar levels, despite Foles playing fewer games. He had a lower INT%, a higher TD%, higher yards/attempt, higher adjusted yards/attempt, etc. I just think Foles' performance was better, higher quality, and had a higher degree of difficulty.

 

And like I said, I'm not trying to take anything away from Griffin's rookie year. 

[amfootball]

I don't know that Griffin can't handle a pro-style offense. I do know that he hasn't been asked to do so. His QBing was based off of simple reads, he often only used one side of the field, and lots of his production was off of play action. There's nothing wrong with any of that; it was productive, and he didn't make a lot of mistakes. But the quality of the offense and the burden he had to bear was much less than that of other QBs. He did his job well, but his job was made easier by design. I think that's good coaching, for handling a rookie QB. You can't run that kind of offense for long, though.

 

Tebow also ran a very basic, limited offense. We know that Tebow struggles with more responsibilities, that he struggles with some of the throws, etc. So his coaches dumbed it down as much as possible, to take the burden off of him. He did okay with that limited offense, but the quality of the QBing wasn't very high. It's not about him using his legs; I don't mind a QB using his legs to make plays. It's about the way the coaches limited the responsibilities and burdens of the QB. There's nothing wrong with it, and the Broncos restricted Tebow way more than Washington restricted Griffin. But when you are comparing a QB in a limited offense with one in a more advanced offense, you should acknowledge the difficulty of what they were asked to do, and the quality of their performances.

 

So when I compare Griffin to Foles, I see one QB that was asked to do about 60% of what the other one was asked to do, and they both produced at pretty similar levels, despite Foles playing fewer games. He had a lower INT%, a higher TD%, higher yards/attempt, higher adjusted yards/attempt, etc. I just think Foles' performance was better, higher quality, and had a higher degree of difficulty.

 

And like I said, I'm not trying to take anything away from Griffin's rookie year. 

You can use whatever measuring sticks you want to judge QBs but this is the first time on this list that style of offense has been brought into the discussion. If we are going to do that than we probably need to do redo the tiers. I think it is just convenient for RG bashers (and I am not calling you a basher by the way) to try to discredit him by the style of offense he ran. Foles also had some pretty dynamic playmakers around him including Jackson and McCoy and a Chip Kelly offense to boot that defenses had not seen before. So, like I said, I need to see more of Foles then just 8 games to put him in any tier other than "Potential."

[Superman]

You can use whatever measuring sticks you want to judge QBs but this is the first time on this list that style of offense has been brought into the discussion. If we are going to do that than we probably need to do redo the tiers. I think it is just convenient for RG bashers (and I am not calling you a basher by the way) to try to discredit him by the style of offense he ran. Foles also had some pretty dynamic playmakers around him including Jackson and McCoy and a Chip Kelly offense to boot that defenses had not seen before. So, like I said, I need to see more of Foles then just 8 games to put him in any tier other than "Potential."

 

Why talk about Griffin bashers? Why not just have the discussion we're having? I'm not trying to discredit him with a convenient complaint. I think the way he plays speaks to the quality of his QBing.

 

Most NFL QBs are asked to run a pro-style offense, or at least something close to it. Griffin and Kaepernick are the only ones in my top three tiers that play in systems that limit their progressions and often cut off one side of the field. But the Niners tried to graduate Kaepernick as 2013 went on, with varied results. 

 

I have all these guys in the same tier. If I put that tier in order (which I haven't done), I'd have Foles and Kaepernick ahead of Griffin.

 

Also, Foles started 10 games in 2013, and six games in 2012. There's twice as much book on his as you claim there is. Not nearly enough to write his complete story, but we're limited in information about Griffin as well. I'm looking forward to next season, as Griffin plays in a more advanced offense, and the league tries to catch up with the Eagles high-tempo attack. But as of right now, with what we have and what we know, I would rank Foles ahead of Griffin, for all the reasons previously stated.

[amfootball]

Why talk about Griffin bashers? Why not just have the discussion we're having? I'm not trying to discredit him with a convenient complaint. I think the way he plays speaks to the quality of his QBing.

 

Most NFL QBs are asked to run a pro-style offense, or at least something close to it. Griffin and Kaepernick are the only ones in my top three tiers that play in systems that limit their progressions and often cut off one side of the field. But the Niners tried to graduate Kaepernick as 2013 went on, with varied results. 

 

I have all these guys in the same tier. If I put that tier in order (which I haven't done), I'd have Foles and Kaepernick ahead of Griffin.

 

Also, Foles started 10 games in 2013, and six games in 2012. There's twice as much book on his as you claim there is. Not nearly enough to write his complete story, but we're limited in information about Griffin as well. I'm looking forward to next season, as Griffin plays in a more advanced offense, and the league tries to catch up with the Eagles high-tempo attack. But as of right now, with what we have and what we know, I would rank Foles ahead of Griffin, for all the reasons previously stated.

I think what you are discounting is RG's athleticism which is why he and Kaep ran the offenses they did. When you have that type of dynamic playmaking at the QB position then naturally the pass game is simplified to keep open the read option or designed bootleg or what have you. You look at passing as the king which is fine as it can be more cerebral if you will but RG and Kaep bring a level of athleticism that cannot be matched by the QBs running the pro style. The old adage of why fix what is not broke applies here. They are different Qbs that bring something entirely different to the table and if you grade them down for that then that is your prerogative. I certainly would not argue that their pocket capabilities are on par with the others but I am not sure that is really a judging stick when it comes to the effectiveness of playing QB when you add it what they can do with their legs.

 

I agree that both RG and Foles still are in the potential category. I would put RG above because of his 2012 season and the fact that he was very limited due to his injury last year and had a horrific situation going on between his HC and owner. For sure 2014 is a proving ground for him and for Foles as well who will have to contend with defenses that are ready for the Chip offense and he will have to do that without his number one receiver in Jackson.

[Superman]

I think what you are discounting is RG's athleticism which is why he and Kaep ran the offenses they did. When you have that type of dynamic playmaking at the QB position then naturally the pass game is simplified to keep open the read option or designed bootleg or what have you. You look at passing as the king which is fine as it can be more cerebral if you will but RG and Kaep bring a level of athleticism that cannot be matched by the QBs running the pro style. The old adage of why fix what is not broke applies here. They are different Qbs that bring something entirely different to the table and if you grade them down for that then that is your prerogative. I certainly would not argue that their pocket capabilities are on par with the others but I am not sure that is really a judging stick when it comes to the effectiveness of playing QB when you add it what they can do with their legs.

 

I agree that both RG and Foles still are in the potential category. I would put RG above because of his 2012 season and the fact that he was very limited due to his injury last year and had a horrific situation going on between his HC and owner. For sure 2014 is a proving ground for him and for Foles as well who will have to contend with defenses that are ready for the Chip offense and he will have to do that without his number one receiver in Jackson.

 

You make it seem as if I have a bias against athletic QBs. I don't. I have no problem with the way Griffin and Kap run, and I think their athleticism is a very useful tool that they should use often. It can make a pretty good passer an absolutely deadly weapon. I think both of them have a better handle on pro concepts at this point than Michael Vick did early in his career, but Vick's legs made him devastating at times.

 

My problem with Griffin (and Kap, to a lesser degree) is that they are quite often only asked to make one or two reads, usually on one side of the field. They don't work through a full set of progressions as often as other QBs, they are limited in their ability to identify and then hit hot receivers, they rarely make it to their dumpoffs, and when they do, it's more of a design of the play than a result of full progressions... I could go on. The offenses they run limit their responsibilities as passers, they don't require them to develop the footwork needed to navigate the pocket, etc. That doesn't mean that they can't handle more advanced passing schemes, just that they haven't shown that they can handle more advanced passing schemes... yet.

 

There's a reason pro-style offenses require the QB to go through full progressions more often than not, and it's because it requires the defense to defend virtually every inch of the field, on virtually every play. For instance, if the QB isn't going to make more than two reads, then you don't really have to worry about defending the flats, because he's not going to throw a dump-off pass. That's overly simplistic, but the point should be obvious. The more reads the QB makes, the more areas of the field he throws to, and the more stress is placed on the defense. Ironically, by limiting an athletic QB to short-read schemes, you're making it easier for the defense to contain his ability to run.

 

That's why, eventually, these teams want their QBs to graduate to more advanced gameplans. The Niners have been doing that with Kap; Shanahan was resistant to giving Griffin more responsibility. But the best passing attacks almost always feature QBs who can handle a pro-style, full field offense, who can navigate the pocket, who has good footwork and can throw accurately from a noisy pocket, who can go through his progressions and throw check downs, etc. There's nothing wrong with bringing a young QB along gradually; like I said, I think it's smart to do so. But Nick Foles wasn't as limited as Griffin has been, and as such, has shown more ability to play high quality QB in the NFL. 

 

That's why I said I think Foles has played higher quality QB than Griffin (and Kap) has. Not because I think Griffin runs too much, or because I dislike read option (I don't), or any of the other popular knocks against Griffin. It's all about going through progressions and actually making pro level decisions and throws, which I think every good offense requires.

[amfootball]

You make it seem as if I have a bias against athletic QBs. I don't. I have no problem with the way Griffin and Kap run, and I think their athleticism is a very useful tool that they should use often. It can make a pretty good passer an absolutely deadly weapon. I think both of them have a better handle on pro concepts at this point than Michael Vick did early in his career, but Vick's legs made him devastating at times.

 

My problem with Griffin (and Kap, to a lesser degree) is that they are quite often only asked to make one or two reads, usually on one side of the field. They don't work through a full set of progressions as often as other QBs, they are limited in their ability to identify and then hit hot receivers, they rarely make it to their dumpoffs, and when they do, it's more of a design of the play than a result of full progressions... I could go on. The offenses they run limit their responsibilities as passers, they don't require them to develop the footwork needed to navigate the pocket, etc. That doesn't mean that they can't handle more advanced passing schemes, just that they haven't shown that they can handle more advanced passing schemes... yet.

 

There's a reason pro-style offenses require the QB to go through full progressions more often than not, and it's because it requires the defense to defend virtually every inch of the field, on virtually every play. For instance, if the QB isn't going to make more than two reads, then you don't really have to worry about defending the flats, because he's not going to throw a dump-off pass. That's overly simplistic, but the point should be obvious. The more reads the QB makes, the more areas of the field he throws to, and the more stress is placed on the defense. Ironically, by limiting an athletic QB to short-read schemes, you're making it easier for the defense to contain his ability to run.

 

That's why, eventually, these teams want their QBs to graduate to more advanced gameplans. The Niners have been doing that with Kap; Shanahan was resistant to giving Griffin more responsibility. But the best passing attacks almost always feature QBs who can handle a pro-style, full field offense, who can navigate the pocket, who has good footwork and can throw accurately from a noisy pocket, who can go through his progressions and throw check downs, etc. There's nothing wrong with bringing a young QB along gradually; like I said, I think it's smart to do so. But Nick Foles wasn't as limited as Griffin has been, and as such, has shown more ability to play high quality QB in the NFL. 

 

That's why I said I think Foles has played higher quality QB than Griffin (and Kap) has. Not because I think Griffin runs too much, or because I dislike read option (I don't), or any of the other popular knocks against Griffin. It's all about going through progressions and actually making pro level decisions and throws, which I think every good offense requires.

Sure, I get what you are saying. But their athleticism do force the defense to have defend more than just the two reads because of the threat they pose with their legs. Of course there is always the risk of injury as well if you have too many designed runs or too many improvised runs.

 

Also, I am not sure I would call Kelly's offense a traditional pro style offense. Given the extreme speed, there were a lot of tree routes and one to two reads as well. Foles did a great job but he did a lot of designed dump offs, many to the RB, and had limited progressions at time as well.

[Superman]

Sure, I get what you are saying. But their athleticism do force the defense to have defend more than just the two reads because of the threat they pose with their legs. Of course there is always the risk of injury as well if you have too many designed runs or too many improvised runs.

 

Also, I am not sure I would call Kelly's offense a traditional pro style offense. Given the extreme speed, there were a lot of tree routes and one to two reads as well. Foles did a great job but he did a lot of designed dump offs, many to the RB, and had limited progressions at time as well.

 

Kelly's offense isn't as advanced as most, but it's more advanced than what Washington was running. And the tree routes and designed dump offs actually encourage a young QB to use his footwork, get used to climbing the pocket, connecting his feet with what his eyes see, etc. 

 

Nothing wrong with what Washington did with Griffin, or how he handled his responsibilities. I just think what Foles did was a cut above, and he did it at a really high level.

[amfootball]

Kelly's offense isn't as advanced as most, but it's more advanced than what Washington was running. And the tree routes and designed dump offs actually encourage a young QB to use his footwork, get used to climbing the pocket, connecting his feet with what his eyes see, etc. 

 

Nothing wrong with what Washington did with Griffin, or how he handled his responsibilities. I just think what Foles did was a cut above, and he did it at a really high level.

Perhaps that is where we disagree. I don't see that much of a difference in terms of the O that they were asked to run and the success to which they ran it. Griffin also did if for longer in 2012 playing in 13 games vs 8 for Foles and Griffin was a rookie whereas Foles was a second year player. Foles may have had more eye popping numbers because of the dynamic nature of the Kelly offense to score and score quickly but RGs 2012 was just as impressive IMO. Of course, Foles could end up being the better QB just too early to tell which was my point from the beginning anyways.