All-time TD pass king: Peyton or Brees?

[oldunclemark]

    One of the highlghts of the upcoming season will be Peyton Manning throwing his 500th TD pass and then passing Brett Farve's career record of 508.....But there is talk that Drew Brees will eventually end up as the TD king. Three more years for the 38-year-old Manning at 40 a year will bump him to 611 or so..But where will six more years of the 35-year-old Brees (at 40 a year) put him.....and Brees, who has never been seriously hurt and plays indoors could play till he's 45...

 

Drew Brees is going to be the Barry Bonds of the NFL......(without the 'roids of course)

 

 

1. Brett Farve (508)

2. Peyton Manning (491)

3. Dan Marino (420)

4. Drew Brees (363)

[Jules]

Not sure but I think Brees has a better shot at getting another ring over Peyton right now before it's all said and done. And both guys probably want ring #2 more then any numbers.

 

And I don't get why Brees playing indoors has to be a big deal either. Peyton played indoors for a long time as well. Both will probably end their careers with obscene numbers in general, I don't know who tops who though right now with records/stats later on.

[Shane Bond]

I will never compare Brees at par Manning or Brady.

Without his coach, we saw what happend to Saints.

He could break all the records but doesn't matter.Without Payton, he is a chicken without head.

[Jules]

I will never compare Brees at par Manning or Brady.

Without his coach, we saw what happend to Saints.

He could break all the records but doesn't matter.Without Payton, he is a chicken without head.

 

One of the worst defenses we ever saw in history was the biggest problem.....not really Brees that year, without him they sink even more. You can see the same thing at times with Romo in Dallas and some of those recent pathetic D's there.

 

Colts fans....well we always love to preach team sport at times. But, QBs like Brees, Romo and even Rodgers have had some pretty bad D's themselves.

 

The Manning/Brady snob act can get old at times......they are the media darlings but so what.......show me on the big stage again.

[NewColtsFan]

Brees has never been seriously hurt?

 

His career almost ended when he suffered a terrible shoulder separation (throwing arm) when he was with San Diego.

 

The Chargers had already drafted Phillip Rivers, so they let Brees go.    He visited two teams,  Miami,  whose coach was Nick Saban and New Orleans.    The Miami doctors flunked him due to the shoulder and so he moved on to New Orleans.

 

Their doctors surprisingly cleared him....  and his rehab was viewed as nothing short of miraculous. 

 

Miami signed Dante Culpepper and the rest is history..........

 

Sorry,  OUM....   not trying to give you a hard time....   and not trying to be a jerk about it.... (whoops, too late!)   Brees has surely played like he's never been hurt.   And it took a small miracle for his career to survive.     It's easy to forget his injury.....

 

As to the substance of the post...  you're right...   Brees is going to be a serious threat to whatever Peyton's final mark is.    But 40 TD's is a lot to assume he'll get every year....    Just thinking out loud....

 

Good debate point.....

[amfootball]

    One of the highlghts of the upcoming season will be Peyton Manning throwing his 500th TD pass and then passing Brett Farve's career record of 508.....But there is talk that Drew Brees will eventually end up as the TD king. Three more years for the 38-year-old Manning at 40 a year will bump him to 611 or so..But where will six more years of the 35-year-old Brees (at 40 a year) put him.....and Brees, who has never been seriously hurt and plays indoors could play till he's 45...

 

Drew Brees is going to be the Barry Bonds of the NFL......(without the 'roids of course)

 

 

1. Brett Farve (508)

2. Peyton Manning (491)

3. Dan Marino (420)

4. Drew Brees (363)

Good topic. Don't forget that Brady is at 359 just four behind Brees and he has played his whole career in frigid NE like Favre did in GB so I will take their TDs total and give them the nod over Manning who played the majority of his career in a dome, Marino who played in sunny FL and Brees who will have played half of his career in a dome. I do think though that Brees could end with more TDs just because Manning may physically break down and is older. But I fully expect Brady to play into 40's as well so I think the two of them could be neck and neck for the record all time. I also don't think Brees continues to throw 40 TDs every year. But we'll see.

[Shane Bond]

Good topic. Don't forget that Brady is at 359 just four behind Brees and he has played his whole career in frigid NE like Favre did in GB so I will take their TDs total and give them the nod over Manning who played the majority of his career in a dome, Marino who played in sunny FL and Brees who will have played half of his career in a dome. I do think though that Brees could end with more TDs just because Manning may physically break down and is older. But I fully expect Brady to play into 40's as well so I think the two of them could be neck and neck for the record all time. I also don't think Brees continues to throw 40 TDs every year. But we'll see.

Manning averages 50 TDs a year in Denver. There is no Dome there. I think the Dome argument is overrated.

[amfootball]

One of the worst defenses we ever saw in history was the biggest problem.....not really Brees that year, without him they sink even more. You can see the same thing at times with Romo in Dallas and some of those recent pathetic D's there.

 

Colts fans....well we always love to preach team sport at times. But, QBs like Brees, Romo and even Rodgers have had some pretty bad D's themselves.

 

The Manning/Brady snob act can get old at times......they are the media darlings but so what.......show me on the big stage again.

His defense was bad ... but he had his worst completion percentage since 2003 that year at 63 and he threw 19 picks which was his second highest total of his career. He had a lot to do with the defense being in bad positions as he forced way too much that year understandably.

 

I think it is easy to look at Manning and Brady and just say they are media darlings but I am not sure of another HoF QB who has played with a worst set of HCs than Manning. And I know many will point to Dungy who may have been his only decent HC but underachieved while coaching Manning big time with seven one and done's. And then you have Brady who has been playing for one of the best defensive minds in football in Belichick who pretty much never even glances over the offense during a game and refuses to get Brady a big time WR on the outside despite Brady shattering the record books with Moss in 2007. He has also had no names as his OC that flourished while coaching him and then flamed out when they left, i.e. Weiss at ND and McDaniels in Denver.

 

So my main point is I think Manning and Brady have showed an amazing ability to adapt to situations that were otherwise cause lesser QBs to struggle like Brees did in 2011.

[amfootball]

Manning averages 50 TDs a year in Denver. There is no Dome there. I think the Dome argument is overrated.

Sure. But Denver is also warm with an off chance of some cold weather in mid to late Dec. I am just saying it is easier to throw TDs in a dome. Look at Manning's stats in a dome vs games played in below freezing temps in Nov/Dec.

[Shane Bond]

One of the worst defenses we ever saw in history was the biggest problem.....not really Brees that year, without him they sink even more. You can see the same thing at times with Romo in Dallas and some of those recent pathetic D's there.

Colts fans....well we always love to preach team sport at times. But, QBs like Brees, Romo and even Rodgers have had some pretty bad D's themselves.

The Manning/Brady snob act can get old at times......they are the media darlings but so what.......show me on the big stage again.

Colts went to SB in 2009 with one of the worst defenses.

Brady took an average team to AFC championship game last year.

Great players are supposed to cover up deficiencies. A certain coach wasn't there, saints fell apart.

[Shane Bond]

Sure. But Denver is also warm with an off chance of some cold weather in mid to late Dec. I am just saying it is easier to throw TDs in a dome. Look at Manning's stats in a dome vs games played in below freezing temps in Nov/Dec.

Manning throwed 4 TDs against Titans last year with 18 degree.

Let's leave Dome and Cold weather out of this argument as Manning has excelled in both.

Now if it's windy and snowing, it's hard to throw which is common in NE.

[amfootball]

Manning throwed 4 TDs against Titans last year with 18 degree.

Let's leave Dome and Cold weather out of this argument as Manning has excelled in both.

Now if it's windy and snowing, it's hard to throw which is common in NE.

That is one game.  And this isn't about Manning being bad in cold weather, it is about how much easier it is to throw the football in a dome vs a cold weather city. Like I said, look at the career stats of Manning indoors vs outdoors. Do the same for Brady as well. There really is no debate that it is easier to throw inside vs outside in the elements which is why I give Brady and Favre the nod over everyone else - not only they did they play outside, they played in cold weather cities where it is hard to throw a 10 yard completion from mid-Nov to Dec.

[Shane Bond]

That is one game. And this isn't about Manning being bad in cold weather, it is about how much easier it is to throw the football in a dome vs a cold weather city. Like I said, look at the career stats of Manning indoors vs outdoors. Do the same for Brady as well. There really is no debate that it is easier to throw inside vs outside in the elements which is why I give Brady and Favre the nod over everyone else - not only they did they play outside, they played in cold weather cities where it is hard to throw a 10 yard completion from mid-Nov to Dec.

Lol I am not making it one but I am just clarifying again Dome, Cold weather, Windy and snow. They all are 4 entirely different scenarios.

I want to rule out Dome and Cold weather as Manning performed outside as well.

Like I said, it's hard to throw with wind and when it's snowing for any QB.They definitely play a factor in NE.

[amfootball]

Lol I am not making it one but I am just clarifying again Dome, Cold weather, Windy and snow. They all are 4 entirely different scenarios.

I want to rule out Dome and Cold weather as Manning performed outside as well.

Like I said, it's hard to throw with wind and when it's snowing for any QB.They definitely play a factor in NE.

I never said Manning did not perform outside but this topic is about volume stats in terms of TDs so when comparing the QBs on the top five list all time for most TDs thrown, the elements factor in big time. When 2 of the QBs on the list played in cold weather cities vs the other three than their stats hold more weight in my view.

[Shane Bond]

I never said Manning did not perform outside but this topic is about volume stats in terms of TDs so when comparing the QBs on the top five list all time for most TDs thrown, the elements factor in big time. When 2 of the QBs on the list played in cold weather cities vs the other three than their stats hold more weight in my view.

Sure, not just cold weather but with wind and snow. Good you realise Dome isn't a factor. I am happy he went to Denver. We can bury this dome argument for good.

[amfootball]

Sure, not just cold weather but with wind and snow. Good you realise Dome isn't a factor. I am happy he went to Denver. We can bury this dome argument for good.

Huh? I never said dome wasn't a factor. Of course it is if you agree wind and snow and rain are a factor as none of those elements effect a dome game. And that is not to say that Manning would not have great numbers if he were to have played in a non-dome city but I have my doubts about him reaching any passing milestones if he were to have played all his seasons in NE or GB.

[sweetsurrender]

Manning averages 50 TDs a year in Denver. There is no Dome there. I think the Dome argument is overrated.

Playing in perfect conditions for 8+ games every year for most of your career certainly effects stats. I think Manning will play a few  more years though and Brees will not catch him. 

[sweetsurrender]

Huh? I never said dome wasn't a factor. Of course it is if you agree wind and snow and rain are a factor as none of those elements effect a dome game. And that is not to say that Manning would not have great numbers if he were to have played in a non-dome city but I have my doubts about him reaching any passing milestones if he were to have played all his seasons in NE or GB.

What would have hurt Manning is his arm strength which was not on par with Favre or Brady even before his neck issues. He has always had issues throwing a tight spiral with velocity consistently which has often led to many of his picks. I am not sure Brees would have faired any better either given his shoulder surgery.

[Nobody]

What would have hurt Manning is his arm strength which was not on par with Favre or Brady even before his neck issues. He has always had issues throwing a tight spiral with velocity consistently which has often led to many of his picks. I am not sure Brees would have faired any better either given his shoulder surgery.

Um.. As a UM fan.. Brady's arm was a weakness in his younger days. It got a bit stronger in the NFL but Brady and Peyton were at the least tied.

As for right now, I'm not sure.

[Shane Bond]

Huh? I never said dome wasn't a factor. Of course it is if you agree wind and snow and rain are a factor as none of those elements effect a dome game. And that is not to say that Manning would not have great numbers if he were to have played in a non-dome city but I have my doubts about him reaching any passing milestones if he were to have played all his seasons in NE or GB.

I just explained in several ways. Dome is not the issue, snow and windy is. Its a fact proven the last few years.

[Shane Bond]

Playing in perfect conditions for 8+ games every year for most of your career certainly effects stats. I think Manning will play a few  more years though and Brees will not catch him. 

Whats alarming is playing not so perfect conditions the last 2 years, his stats are even better.

[Qwiz]

With the video game numbers they put up on a consistent basis in New Orleans, I wouldn't be surprised to see Brees pass Manning up in TDs.

[sweetsurrender]

Whats alarming is playing not so perfect conditions the last 2 years, his stats are even better.

What not so perfect conditions? When he played in NE last year in bad weather he had his worst statistical performance of the season save for the SB. And in the playoffs he had 60 degrees and sunshine for both home games. The year prior when the temps were below freezing he had three TOs in the playoffs vs the Ravens. If he had to play his whole career in a cold weather climate which Denver is not then his stats would be less. How much is less debatable but for sure less.

[amfootball]

I just explained in several ways. Dome is not the issue, snow and windy is. Its a fact proven the last few years.

Ok then we agree. Had he had to play his whole career outside of the dome in a cold weather city than his stats would have suffered.

[oldunclemark]

You are right NCF..I forgot about Brees being hurt before..

You are 1000% correct...

Drew Brees already has the consecutive TD pass (the old Johnny U) record..and Drew could get the all-time TD crown.

My point is, I guess, that we always talk about Brady and Manning and when they are all retired...Brees could stand just as tall or taller.

Brees has never been seriously hurt?

 

His career almost ended when he suffered a terrible shoulder separation (throwing arm) when he was with San Diego.

 

The Chargers had already drafted Phillip Rivers, so they let Brees go.    He visited two teams,  Miami,  whose coach was Nick Saban and New Orleans.    The Miami doctors flunked him due to the shoulder and so he moved on to New Orleans.

 

Their doctors surprisingly cleared him....  and his rehab was viewed as nothing short of miraculous. 

 

Miami signed Dante Culpepper and the rest is history..........

 

Sorry,  OUM....   not trying to give you a hard time....   and not trying to be a jerk about it.... (whoops, too late!)   Brees has surely played like he's never been hurt.   And it took a small miracle for his career to survive.     It's easy to forget his injury.....

 

As to the substance of the post...  you're right...   Brees is going to be a serious threat to whatever Peyton's final mark is.    But 40 TD's is a lot to assume he'll get every year....    Just thinking out loud....

 

Good debate point.....

[oldunclemark]

Whats alarming is playing not so perfect conditions the last 2 years, his stats are even better.

That is an excellent point, Shane and I cant explain that.

I don't think Peyton has more offensive talent NOW that he did in Indy and I dont think the division competition is weaker.

Unless he is simply still improving..which is hard to believe

[oldunclemark]

Are there any stats for Brees home and away......although that's a warm weather division.

....Just saw a interview with Drew and he suggests he could play indefinetly..maybe until he's 45..

That's where playing indoors will help..giving him longevity over Brady and Manning

[Shane Bond]

What not so perfect conditions? When he played in NE last year in bad weather he had his worst statistical performance of the season save for the SB. And in the playoffs he had 60 degrees and sunshine for both home games. The year prior when the temps were below freezing he had three TOs in the playoffs vs the Ravens. If he had to play his whole career in a cold weather climate which Denver is not then his stats would be less. How much is less debatable but for sure less.

I don't agree with the cold weather logic you are presenting. Manning didn't have a choice who drafted him. It happend to be a dome?. For the record, last year in NE, box was empty and they ran the ball. When they needed a TD, he throwed some clutch ones. Also what you do not like to mention is how Manning throwed for over 300 yards and 3 TDs in the same Ravens game. Also, go watch the Titans game last year at 18 degrees.

Are you suggesting if Manning were to be drafted by GB or NE, he wouldn't have adapted and been a bust?.

[BloodyChamp]

Brees is an overrated sissy who couldn't stay on the field before the passhappy era. He's Barry Bonds minus the roids alright, and replaced with the Bountygate. I already ignore stats to a point in a worlds where Marino's original yardage record gets broken every year by midgrade quarterbacks, where Matt Flynn has the most TDs in a Packers game, etc. Now Drew Brees the alltime TD leader smh.

[Jules]

Colts went to SB in 2009 with one of the worst defenses.

Brady took an average team to AFC championship game last year.

Great players are supposed to cover up deficiencies. A certain coach wasn't there, saints fell apart.

 

 

Where was the greatness of Manning to cover up deficiencies in his last two Super Bowl losses? As well as Brady? Can adversity only be overcome for the regular season?

 

Part of me does not care if Manning or Brady threw for 8 million TDs in the next two years combined. If these two are considered the best ever or among the best ever I expect more then stats in the regular season now when a lot of QBs can now have big numbers in today's league.

[Stephen]

Where was the greatness of Manning to cover up deficiencies in his last two Super Bowl losses? As well as Brady? Can adversity only be overcome for the regular season?

 

Part of me does not care if Manning or Brady threw for 8 million TDs in the next two years combined. If these two are considered the best ever or among the best ever I expect more then stats in the regular season now when a lot of QBs can now have big numbers in today's league.

the thing is if manning or brady are carrying the team and their team has a suspect defense or poor running game then when the defense shuts down the qb the team self destructs and gets blow out. Last year the whole broncos team played bad in the sb so its not all on manning.

[Jules]

the thing is if manning or brady are carrying the team and their team has a suspect defense or poor running game then when the defense shuts down the qb the team self destructs and gets blow out. Last year the whole broncos team played bad in the sb so its not all on manning.

 

That is precisely my original point too when I mentioned the Saints having a historically all time bad defense the year Payton was gone from the Saints. It was not all on Brees, he actually did pretty well at times considering the team sunk hard and were made out as the villains of football. It was not all on Manning too in the SB but he was awful at times you cannot deny this. Same with Brady in the recent AFC title game. And frankly you have to sometimes expect more if either one is supposed to be the best there ever was to play the game.

 

I personally do hope all these men do not play well into their 40's though for the sole purpose of chasing records and stats though. Play for the love of the game and to try and get another ring.....not just for individual glory.

 

I still think Peyton may have another ring or even two if he went to SF but that would also mean giving up a lot more control too.......but that's water under the bridge now. He went to Denver where I always felt the coaching staff was vastly overrated.

[Shane Bond]

Where was the greatness of Manning to cover up deficiencies in his last two Super Bowl losses? As well as Brady? Can adversity only be overcome for the regular season?

Part of me does not care if Manning or Brady threw for 8 million TDs in the next two years combined. If these two are considered the best ever or among the best ever I expect more then stats in the regular season now when a lot of QBs can now have big numbers in today's league.

They have covered enough to take their teams that far and they can only so far. That's why it's a team game.

Brees couldn't even make the playoffs without the head coach, if I remember right.

Seriously, it's not even close.

[Narcosys]

    One of the highlghts of the upcoming season will be Peyton Manning throwing his 500th TD pass and then passing Brett Farve's career record of 508.....But there is talk that Drew Brees will eventually end up as the TD king. Three more years for the 38-year-old Manning at 40 a year will bump him to 611 or so..But where will six more years of the 35-year-old Brees (at 40 a year) put him.....and Brees, who has never been seriously hurt and plays indoors could play till he's 45...

 

Drew Brees is going to be the Barry Bonds of the NFL......(without the 'roids of course)

 

 

1. Brett Farve (508)

2. Peyton Manning (491)

3. Dan Marino (420)

4. Drew Brees (363)

 

Peyton: 3x40 = 120 +491 = 611

Brees:   6x40 = 240 +363 = 603

[-JJ-]

Manning averages 50 TDs a year in Denver. There is no Dome there. I think the Dome argument is overrated.

Not overrated. There will be some games in a non dome that are going to be low passing no matter who you are.

 

Having said that- if you're good then it doesn't matter where you play.

[Shane Bond]

Not overrated. There will be some games in a non dome that are going to be low passing no matter who you are.

 

Having said that- if you're good then it doesn't matter where you play.

It is over rated. And i just mentioned Manning's last 2 years in Denver to show that.

 

That some games will happen to any player regardless of conditions.

[Jules]

They have covered enough to take their teams that far and they can only so far. That's why it's a team game.

Brees couldn't even make the playoffs without the head coach, if I remember right.

Seriously, it's not even close.

 

 

If it's a team sport then the individual stats/records are offensive team stats too then....because the entire offense is involved. Not just the QB even if he sometimes calls the plays, a lot has to often go right to make that TD pass even happen.

 

The QB can be overly glorified or scrutinized in our society anyway though.....I used to get caught up in this stuff too more years ago. It can be fun though I do admit once in a while to back and forth on this stuff.

[Shane Bond]

If it's a team sport then the individual stats/records are offensive team stats too then....because the entire offense is involved. Not just the QB even if he sometimes calls the plays, a lot has to often go right to make that TD pass even happen.

 

The QB can be overly glorified or scrutinized in our society anyway though.....I used to get caught up in this stuff too more years ago. It can be fun though I do admit once in a while to back and forth on this stuff.

 

You have the answer in your post itself ( the bolded one ). It was quite evident who was calling the shots in the Saints offense when Sean Payton was missing.

[oldunclemark]

That is precisely my original point too when I mentioned the Saints having a historically all time bad defense the year Payton was gone from the Saints. It was not all on Brees, he actually did pretty well at times considering the team sunk hard and were made out as the villains of football. It was not all on Manning too in the SB but he was awful at times you cannot deny this. Same with Brady in the recent AFC title game. And frankly you have to sometimes expect more if either one is supposed to be the best there ever was to play the game.

 

I personally do hope all these men do not play well into their 40's though for the sole purpose of chasing records and stats though. Play for the love of the game and to try and get another ring.....not just for individual glory.

 

I still think Peyton may have another ring or even two if he went to SF but that would also mean giving up a lot more control too.......but that's water under the bridge now. He went to Denver where I always felt the coaching staff was vastly overrated.

I think we concern with numbers and mis associate our thoughts on players...

..who basically play for money and because they like to play... we say they play for rings..

In truth, they play because its a really exciting high paying job and, in mst cases, what else do they know to do.

I think a myth has grown out of the Peyton turned down the 49ers and reasons have been adopted for something that didn't happen...according to both sides..

If SF had Kap coming and they liked him..who go pursue a (at that time) rag armed Peyton.

Also..Brees did NOT play badly the year his coach was suspended. He really didnt

[oldunclemark]

a myth has also grown out of Drew Brees being helpless without his suspended coach..

Drew Brees (2012)

422 of 670, 5,177 yards...43 TDs and 19 interceptions...

..(of course, he didn't play defense)