Injuries / Strength & Conditioning Complaints

[rockywoj]

I keep thinking it's a bunch of hogwash, all of these complaints people keep making about the Colts' strength and conditioning program being deficient and to blame for all of the Colts' plethora of injuries. Rather than me trying to again make the case to discredit the complaints, I will let Bill Polian do it with his words, as posted on the Polian Corner at Colts.com, because I completely agree with him ...

"The answer to your second question is ‘no.’ The injuries on the offensive line are what we call trauma injuries. In (offensive tackle) Anthony Castonzo's case it was an ankle sprain. In (offensive tackle) Ben Ijalana's case it was a knee injury that just occurred on a grass field, which defies most of the conventional wisdom. In (offensive guard) Mike Pollak's case it’s a pulled hamstring, which is a little bit unique among offensive linemen. Nonetheless, that’s a fatigue injury which doesn’t equate to a lack of training camp or off-season program. (Offensive guard) Joe Reitz's injury is a meniscus injury, cartilage in his knee, which, once again, is a trauma injury and has nothing to do with conditioning. In (defensive tackle) Eric Foster's case (it was) just a gruesome dislocation of his ankle and broken leg. That is a quintessential trauma injury, and (defensive tackle) Drake Nevis is an injury to his tailbone, which occurred in a game because he was blindsided and just landed on it. Seth Olsen is a broken hand, so every one one of those six injuries to the linemen are all trauma injuries, or in Mike Pollak’s case clearly just a fatigue injury that happens in the game and really (had) nothing to do with off-season or training camp. Quinn Qjinnaka last (Sunday, his) knee, got rolled up on, so that’s the way. You do have injuries in football, unfortunately. You cannot make it injury-free. You are not going to eliminate injuries in a game where there is physical contact. The same is true in hockey or lacrosse. Any game where there is physical contact you are going to have injuries, and we’ve had more than our share. They have nothing to do with conditioning or shortened training camp, or anything like that. "

In a nutshell, I think Polian is correct and by extension, these people blaming the Colts injuries on Colts' management for having bad strength and conditioning programs quite simply do not know what they are talking about, no disrespect meant.

[IndyD4U]

Plyometrics anyone?

Kind of like Polian defending Caldwell, IMO

[Duolian]

Just a question, cause I have no idea: To what extent can coaching proper footwork/technique help reduce the possibility of lower leg injuries for interior linemen?

[chad72]

I don't know about you guys, I think our guys could use yoga once a week .

It not only improves flexibility, it helps with strength, posture, and body awareness as well. It also stimulates the relaxation response -- the opposite of the fight-or-flight adrenaline boost of the stress response.

[Fatboyslim11]

I keep thinking it's a bunch of hogwash, all of these complaints people keep making about the Colts' strength and conditioning program being deficient and to blame for all of the Colts' plethora of injuries. Rather than me trying to again make the case to discredit the complaints, I will let Bill Polian do it with his words, as posted on the Polian Corner at Colts.com, because I completely agree with him ...

"The answer to your second question is ‘no.’ The injuries on the offensive line are what we call trauma injuries. In (offensive tackle) Anthony Castonzo's case it was an ankle sprain. In (offensive tackle) Ben Ijalana's case it was a knee injury that just occurred on a grass field, which defies most of the conventional wisdom. In (offensive guard) Mike Pollak's case it’s a pulled hamstring, which is a little bit unique among offensive linemen. Nonetheless, that’s a fatigue injury which doesn’t equate to a lack of training camp or off-season program. (Offensive guard) Joe Reitz's injury is a meniscus injury, cartilage in his knee, which, once again, is a trauma injury and has nothing to do with conditioning. In (defensive tackle) Eric Foster's case (it was) just a gruesome dislocation of his ankle and broken leg. That is a quintessential trauma injury, and (defensive tackle) Drake Nevis is an injury to his tailbone, which occurred in a game because he was blindsided and just landed on it. Seth Olsen is a broken hand, so every one one of those six injuries to the linemen are all trauma injuries, or in Mike Pollak’s case clearly just a fatigue injury that happens in the game and really (had) nothing to do with off-season or training camp. Quinn Qjinnaka last (Sunday, his) knee, got rolled up on, so that’s the way. You do have injuries in football, unfortunately. You cannot make it injury-free. You are not going to eliminate injuries in a game where there is physical contact. The same is true in hockey or lacrosse. Any game where there is physical contact you are going to have injuries, and we’ve had more than our share. They have nothing to do with conditioning or shortened training camp, or anything like that. "

In a nutshell, I think Polian is correct and by extension, these people blaming the Colts injuries on Colts' management for having bad strength and conditioning programs quite simply do not know what they are talking about, no disrespect meant.

You can make up any number of excuses, medical mumbo jumbo and the like. The bottom line is our players get injuried far more often than players on other teams. I believe a major reason for this is our players tend to be smaller, less physical and less athletic and just stand stand up to the physical rigors of the NFL like the better athletes on other NFL teams.

[coltfaninnewyork]

Who is the colts strength and condtioning coach?Richard Simmons?

[jskinnz]

You can make up any number of excuses, medical mumbo jumbo and the like. The bottom line is our players get injuried far more often than players on other teams. I believe a major reason for this is our players tend to be smaller, less physical and less athletic and just stand stand up to the physical rigors of the NFL like the better athletes on other NFL teams.

That is fine and all, but two things...

1) I don't buy your premise and

2) even if true, wouldn't that mean that their size was the issue and not the lack of proper strength and conditioning?

[farmer2]

_{You guys should just try to hijack the Falcons strength and conditioning coach from Atlanta this week. Did you see what Matt Ryan's ankle did against Detroit? That's not human.}

[Fatboyslim11]

That is fine and all, but two things...

1) I don't buy your premise and

2) even if true, wouldn't that mean that their size was the issue and not the lack of proper strength and conditioning?

1) The premise is our lightweight, less athletic players get injuries so often just because they are smaller, less athletic and cannot match up strength for strength against other NFL team. That wasn't hard, was it?

2) Both, lack of size and bad conditioning. With our smaller players one would think our strength and conditioning program would work overtime to try to bulk up the players.

[rockywoj]

Casontozo, Ijalana, Nevis = small and light weight? Sorry, it's a ridiculous premise, imho. It's just bad luck nothing more.

[Smitto]

It definitely is because of conditioning... plus the colts tacklers are reckless, they do not wrap up most of the time and the players lack discipline..

[FanFromtheWasteland]

1) The premise is our lightweight, less athletic players get injuries so often just because they are smaller, less athletic and cannot match up strength for strength against other NFL team. That wasn't hard, was it?

2) Both, lack of size and bad conditioning. With our smaller players one would think our strength and conditioning program would work overtime to try to bulk up the players.

I will agree with the light weight but in all fairness, that doesn’t equate to less athletic.

It also doesn’t equate to poor training either. (though I am not really disagreeing with that one)

I look at it this way which would you want to have in a fight? A chop stick or a baseball bat?

[coltfaninnewyork]

It definitely is because of conditioning... plus the colts tacklers are reckless, they do not wrap up most of the time and the players lack discipline..

No it's not conditioning,this is the nfl every team has the best of the best when it come's to strength and conditioning.Just unlucky.

[GoGoColts]

Calling the injuries trauma related and just chalking of season after season of injuries to bad luck doesn't really add up. Guys who aren't in good shape or the right kind of shape to resist injuries are less resistant to trauma. You have to wonder if guys are being expected to play at weights that are too low for their positions? Are they missing exercises that give them trauma resistance? DT play is a big part of it because the linebackers and secondary get no protection whatsoever.

All, I know is that we haven't drafted too many players with extensive injury history and the come to the Colts and get hurt. It would be a stretch to suggest that organizational factors don't play a role in injuries. Also, we have to stop trotting out donkeys to run with thoroughbreds.

Edited November 2, 2011 by GoGoColts

[coltfaninnewyork]

Calling the injuries trauma related and just chalking of season after season of injuries to bad luck doesn't really work out. Guys who aren't in good shape or the right kind of shape to resist injuries are less resistant to trauma. You have to wonder if guys are being expected to play at weights that are too low for their positions? Are they missing exercises that give them trauma resistance? DT play is a big part of it because the linebackers and secondary get no protection whatsoever.

All, I know is that we haven't drafted too many players with extensive injury history and the come to the Colts and get hurt. It would be a stretch to suggest that organizational factors don't play a role in injuries.

Are you saying that the front office is so stubborn they do not see the problem?I do not buy that,polian has his faults but he is not a *.

[GoGoColts]

Are you saying that the front office is so stubborn they do not see the problem?I do not buy that,polian has his faults but he is not a *.

I think that Polian recognizes that there is a problem beyond bad luck, but he really only grudgingly admits to mistakes. At this point, I think that he is just handing out spin unless he has gone nuts.

Edited November 2, 2011 by GoGoColts

[jskinnz]

1) The premise is our lightweight, less athletic players get injuries so often just because they are smaller, less athletic and cannot match up strength for strength against other NFL team. That wasn't hard, was it?

2) Both, lack of size and bad conditioning. With our smaller players one would think our strength and conditioning program would work overtime to try to bulk up the players.

Your thoughts on this are not too challenging to comprehend. They are just not accurate.

Please share with the board the extensive study you did to determine that the Colts are poorly conditioned.

[jskinnz]

I think that Polian recognizes that there is a problem beyond bad luck, but he really only grudgingly admits to mistakes. At this point, I think that he is just handing out spin unless he has gone nuts.

The Colts are a multi, multi million dollar business whose very success depends on the health of its players. You don't think they look at everything possible to keep their players on the field? Strength & weight training, conditioning, cardio, flexibility, nutrition, and post injury treatment are all things they examine all the time to see what they are doing and what can be done better. The notion that the injuries are the result of poor work by someone in the Colts organization does not pass the sniff test. They play a physical game in which big men smash into each other. Injuries happen.

[GoGoColts]

The Colts are a multi, multi million dollar business whose very success depends on the health of its players. You don't think they look at everything possible to keep their players on the field? Strength & weight training, conditioning, cardio, flexibility, nutrition, and post injury treatment are all things they examine all the time to see what they are doing and what can be done better. The notion that the injuries are the result of poor work by someone in the Colts organization does not pass the sniff test. They play a physical game in which big men smash into each other. Injuries happen.

Probability would dictate otherwise. My overall assertion is that there are likely organizational issues are work that relates to the injuries.

However, if you want to just talk about the training staff, sure. Your assertion that the Colts have only the best of the best on their staff is a little hard to swallow. The team has been one of the most injured in football for how many years running? The team is 0-8. Jim Calwell and Larry Coyer might be two of the worst at their job in the league. Somehow, we have only the best of the best in your erudite opinion?

Edited November 2, 2011 by GoGoColts

[jskinnz]

Probability would dictate otherwise. My overall assertion is that there are likely organizational issues are work that relates to the injuries.

However, if you want to just talk about the training staff, sure. Your assertion that the Colts have only the best of the best on their staff is a little hard to swallow. The team has been one of the most injured in football for how many years running? The team is 0-8. Jim Calwell and Larry Coyer might be two of the worst at their job in the league. Somehow, we have only the best of the best in your erudite opinion?

Yep, when Ijalana tore up his knee there were organizational issues at work there. Hey looky there - another chance for you to trot out your Ijalana fell down line. Foster - samthing there. Clearly organizational issues there too.

Erudite? You swallow a dictionary?

[GoGoColts]

Yep, when Ijalana tore up his knee there were organizational issues at work there. Hey looky there - another chance for you to trot out your Ijalana fell down line. Foster - samthing there. Clearly organizational issues there too.

Erudite? You swallow a dictionary?

The trend of many injuries suggests that these guys can't hold up for some reason. If we look at one or two injuries out of the context of the organization, we might be tempted to think that it was, "dumb luck, he fell down, he got rolled up." However, in the context of three years it's time to consider other factors.

It's like a kid getting a bad grade on a test. One bad grade could be attributed to a number of factors short-term family issues, forgot to study, caught the flu,dog ate the study guide, and so on. When a trend is established over a period of time its time to start considering more stable factors like: abusive home life, learning disability, low IQ, laziness, and so on.

In short, long term problems typically do not have a string of short-term causes as the probability of getting the flu, dog eating my study guide, and so on is very low.

Edited November 3, 2011 by GoGoColts

[-JJ-]

The small size thing = injuries I haven't bought without some other medical opinon. Infact some say large gets injured easier<srug>

What size does matter in is lineplay..getting pushed around and that what I see. I once saw the colts-NE 2003 AFCG, 7th row. Before the game I looked at the players on the field warming up. Oh my gawd. Look how big we are compared to them. Right there I knew we had to win by sheer force. Which is exactly what happened.

The colts aren't typically injured more than other teams (except last year)...you just don't look at other teams as closely.

I don't know anything much about conditioning but NE is said to have the latest and greatest.

But we still lose people.

So for the most part Polian is probably right. But line play there is no doubt that's where the battle is won or lost.

Add to that and they more often than not tackle air ;-) As in they whiff!

[Ramblinwreck7]

The colts just need to do Pilates or Yoga, something that other players have recommended before.

1. Our injuries are not bad luck, we get a lot of them every year. There is no such thing as luck anyways in my opinion.

2. There is no way that our NFL football players are out of shape.

3. Anthony Castonzo is 6'7" 311 lbs. or so, Ben Ijalana is 6'4" 318 lbs or so, Ryan Diem is 6'6" 320 lbs... These guys are not undersized at all. The only players that you can complain about being undersized are are couple of the LB's, a couple of the DT's, and a few of the defensive backs.

[cmgww]

In 2009 we lost Sanders but the team stayed relatively healthy, and we made the Super Bowl...Last year the Packers won the SB with nearly as many players on IR as the Colts (just not in the key positions the Colts lost guys). I think the size thing comes into play, but I don't think our strength/conditioning program is sub-par. They could probably improve some things, yes...but I have to side with Polian on this one...no amount of strength/conditioning prevents ACL tears/broken bones

[GoGoColts]

Injuries are the trend over the last five years.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/story?id=7051014&_slug_=nfl-analyzing-indianapolis-colts-injury-issues&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl%2fstory%3fid%3d7051014%26_slug_%3dnfl-analyzing-indianapolis-colts-injury-issues

[Finlandia]

Maybe Irsay shouldn't have fired Hunter Smith. Who was the head trainer. Who had said he had a job so long as he wanted it. And for the noobs, no, I am not talking about our former punter.

[GoGoColts]

The colts just need to do Pilates or Yoga, something that other players have recommended before.

1. Our injuries are not bad luck, we get a lot of them every year. There is no such thing as luck anyways in my opinion.

I think that luck in the sense that it is being used in this thread is to say, "Random fluctuations in injuries around the mean," not superstition.

2. There is no way that our NFL football players are out of shape.

Guys come in out of shape all the time. Ross Tucker of Football Today podcast fame, spoke about guys getting fined throughout the season for not making weight, Sam Adams is one that comes to mind. A lot gets made of the big guys like Casey Hampton and various nose tackles. There are certainly others and small guys in various positions. Also, being in shape and in shape the correct way for your sport makes a huge difference. The appropriate mix of cardio and strength is necessary. They are competing interests.

3. Anthony Castonzo is 6'7" 311 lbs. or so, Ben Ijalana is 6'4" 318 lbs or so, Ryan Diem is 6'6" 320 lbs... These guys are not undersized at all. The only players that you can complain about being undersized are are couple of the LB's, a couple of the DT's, and a few of the defensive backs.

The bulk of the injuries for the Colts occur on the defense which is decidedly undersized.

http://insider.espn....s-injury-issues

Edited November 3, 2011 by GoGoColts

[doogansquest]

You can make up any number of excuses, medical mumbo jumbo and the like. The bottom line is our players get injuried far more often than players on other teams. I believe a major reason for this is our players tend to be smaller, less physical and less athletic and just stand stand up to the physical rigors of the NFL like the better athletes on other NFL teams.

Our players don't get injured more often than on other teams. Sure, we were there with the Packers last year for players on IR. But that was proof that other teams had the same issues. Was it the strength and conditioning coach in Green Bay? San Diego had more injuries than us at the time they played against us in the regular season last year. Was that their S&C?

When Brady went down in 08, or when the Patriots lost 9 defenders in the first 3 games this year, plus their stud TE's, was that because they have poor S&C?

How about Charles and Berry from Kansas City? Those guys are probably the best players on each side of the ball for them, but they went out due to injury. Must be an organizational thing...

There is a ton of dumb-luck involved. If an offensive linemen trips on a pile of legs, arms, etc., and falls forward, he can't see what's above him. If a defensive lineman is locked in battle with an offensive lineman, he can't see what's below him. If the helmet of the falling player smashes into the knee of the defensive player as a result, that's just bad luck. This scenario isn't unlikely either. It happens on a weekly basis. Some guys suffer horrific injuries as a result, while others are fortunate and only take a glancing blow. It has nothing to do with strength and conditioning; those types of injuries are going to put someone down.

All of this talk about strength and conditioning is nonsensical, and just another excuse for people to scream about the part of the game they know nothing about (ie: coaching and front office). Every team has LOADS of injuries, but we are only familiar with the guys on our own team. I would bet every team forum is full of people crying about how unlucky they are.

P.S. I noticed that absolutely no one ever responds to the fact that Castonzo, Ijalana, and Nevis are not small, fast guys. They are big, powerful, athletic, and durable (per their college resumes). Yet all of them have been injured this year.

P.P.S. @GoGoColts: No area of the field has seen more shuffling as a result of injury than our offensive line, however, and those guys are not small. Our LB's often suffer injuries, and they are admittedly undersized. But that doesn't mean they are poorly conditioned, and since injuries happen all over the field to every team, it sort of negates the idea that it's our guys more so than anyone else.

Edited November 3, 2011 by doogansquest

[GoGoColts]

Our players don't get injured more often than on other teams. Sure, we were there with the Packers last year for players on IR. But that was proof that other teams had the same issues. Was it the strength and conditioning coach in Green Bay? San Diego had more injuries than us at the time they played against us in the regular season last year. Was that their S&C?

When Brady went down in 08, or when the Patriots lost 9 defenders in the first 3 games this year, plus their stud TE's, was that because they have poor S&C?

How about Charles and Berry from Kansas City? Those guys are probably the best players on each side of the ball for them, but they went out due to injury. Must be an organizational thing...

There is a ton of dumb-luck involved. If an offensive linemen trips on a pile of legs, arms, etc., and falls forward, he can't see what's above him. If a defensive lineman is locked in battle with an offensive lineman, he can't see what's below him. If the helmet of the falling player smashes into the knee of the defensive player as a result, that's just bad luck. This scenario isn't unlikely either. It happens on a weekly basis. Some guys suffer horrific injuries as a result, while others are fortunate and only take a glancing blow. It has nothing to do with strength and conditioning; those types of injuries are going to put someone down.

All of this talk about strength and conditioning is nonsensical, and just another excuse for people to scream about the part of the game they know nothing about (ie: coaching and front office). Every team has LOADS of injuries, but we are only familiar with the guys on our own team. I would bet every team forum is full of people crying about how unlucky they are.

P.S. I noticed that absolutely no one ever responds to the fact that Castonzo, Ijalana, and Nevis are not small, fast guys. They are big, powerful, athletic, and durable (per their college resumes). Yet all of them have been injured this year.

P.P.S. @GoGoColts: No area of the field has seen more shuffling as a result of injury than our offensive line, however, and those guys are not small. Our LB's often suffer injuries, and they are admittedly undersized. But that doesn't mean they are poorly conditioned, and since injuries happen all over the field to every team, it sort of negates the idea that it's our guys more so than anyone else.

You really need to read through these posts. This is incredibly off base and had been addressed with some facts. By the way, our offensive line is one of the smallest in football. Nevis doesn't even weigh 300. http://www.nfl.com/p...2495208/profile This organization has been injured more than others for a several years, it's time to consider organizational or systemic problems.

Castanzo's scouting report points out that he needs to get stronger. He is long and not powerfully built.

Must improve his bulk and playing strength (both upper and lower body). Can be beat by a strong bull rush or violent pass rushing moves. Can get caught dipping his head in pass protection. Does not push people off the line of scrimmage in the running game.

http://www.nfl.com/d...d=2495137#tab=1

Castanzo's scouting report does not indicate strength

Lacks some height and bulk you like to see for a defensive tackle. Doesn't possess the range or top-end speed to always finish when penetrating or make plays outside the box. Not overly comfortable moving laterally. Does not consistently push the pocket with a bull rush.

http://www.nfl.com/d...d=2495208#tab=1

Just on a side note. exceptions don't prove rules. Even if Castanzo and Nevis were large and powerful, a couple of exceptions don't disprove 5 years of systemic injuries.

Edited November 3, 2011 by GoGoColts

[-JJ-]

Our players don't get injured more often than on other teams. Sure, we were there with the Packers last year for players on IR. But that was proof that other teams had the same issues. Was it the strength and conditioning coach in Green Bay? San Diego had more injuries than us at the time they played against us in the regular season last year. Was that their S&C?

When Brady went down in 08, or when the Patriots lost 9 defenders in the first 3 games this year, plus their stud TE's, was that because they have poor S&C?

How about Charles and Berry from Kansas City? Those guys are probably the best players on each side of the ball for them, but they went out due to injury. Must be an organizational thing...

There is a ton of dumb-luck involved. If an offensive linemen trips on a pile of legs, arms, etc., and falls forward, he can't see what's above him. If a defensive lineman is locked in battle with an offensive lineman, he can't see what's below him. If the helmet of the falling player smashes into the knee of the defensive player as a result, that's just bad luck. This scenario isn't unlikely either. It happens on a weekly basis. Some guys suffer horrific injuries as a result, while others are fortunate and only take a glancing blow. It has nothing to do with strength and conditioning; those types of injuries are going to put someone down.

All of this talk about strength and conditioning is nonsensical, and just another excuse for people to scream about the part of the game they know nothing about (ie: coaching and front office). Every team has LOADS of injuries, but we are only familiar with the guys on our own team. I would bet every team forum is full of people crying about how unlucky they are.

P.S. I noticed that absolutely no one ever responds to the fact that Castonzo, Ijalana, and Nevis are not small, fast guys. They are big, powerful, athletic, and durable (per their college resumes). Yet all of them have been injured this year.

P.P.S. @GoGoColts: No area of the field has seen more shuffling as a result of injury than our offensive line, however, and those guys are not small. Our LB's often suffer injuries, and they are admittedly undersized. But that doesn't mean they are poorly conditioned, and since injuries happen all over the field to every team, it sort of negates the idea that it's our guys more so than anyone else.

ay yep. pretty much sums it up;-)

[GoGoColts]

ay yep. pretty much sums it up;-)

You guys are using exceptions to prove the rule rather than looking at five years of the most injured defense and being in the 5 five in total injuries over the course of the last 3 years. I saw a big guy get injured once does not disprove anything concerning the trend of Injuries in Indianapolis. Every year teams have random fluctuations around a mean number of injuries. When a team is injured in the extreme over the course of several years, it gets less and less likely that it occurred by chance as described by Bayes theorem http://en.wikipedia....ayes%27_theorem

It is important to consider organizational issues rather than just accepting it as chance because chances become slim that the high level of injuries are by chance.

No one is denying that everyone in football is susceptible to injuries. The fact is the Colts have a clear trend of injuries that defies random chance. So we have to ask ourselves what systemic/organizational issues might be causing it. Is it the small players? Is it the lack of talent? Is it the conditioning? At this point the least likely answer is random chance.

Edited November 3, 2011 by GoGoColts

[Smitto]

No it's not conditioning,this is the nfl every team has the best of the best when it come's to strength and conditioning.Just unlucky.

Its not unlucky, its only unlucky when that rash appears once in a while not every season for the past 4yrs.....

For those of you that say the colts dont have the most injuries... here is a link analyzing the colts injury bug compared to other teams...

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/story?id=7051014&_slug_=nfl-analyzing-indianapolis-colts-injury-issues&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl%2fstory%3fid%3d7051014%26_slug_%3dnfl-analyzing-indianapolis-colts-injury-issues

There is something more than just bad luck affecting these colt players.. maybe they are playing too recklessly or not being taught how to properly protect themselves... look at the colts tight ends compared to other TE's... tamme doesnt even look like a TE, of course he was a receiver coverted into a TE but that it self would make him more likely to get injured in the position hes playing right now.

[GoGoColts]

Its not unlucky, its only unlucky when that rash appears once in a while not every season for the past 4yrs.....

For those of you that say the colts dont have the most injuries... here is a link analyzing the colts injury bug compared to other teams...

http://insider.espn....s-injury-issues

There is something more than just bad luck affecting these colt players.. maybe they are playing too recklessly or not being taught how to properly protect themselves... look at the colts tight ends compared to other TE's... tamme doesnt even look like a TE, of course he was a receiver coverted into a TE but that it self would make him more likely to get injured in the position hes playing right now.

People who believe that the exception proves whatever nonsensical rule that they want to make up will never believe the long-term statistical trend, no matter how obvious and well documented statistical trend is, no matter how unlikely it is that the trend is occurring by chance. .

Edited November 3, 2011 by GoGoColts

[Fatboyslim11]

Your thoughts on this are not too challenging to comprehend. They are just not accurate.

Please share with the board the extensive study you did to determine that the Colts are poorly conditioned.

To the contary, I want you to share with this board the extensive studies you have conducted to show the Colts player injuries are average in compariso with the rest of the league.

One does not need a thick study paper to see all our injuries year after year. The common denominator is all this is the type of players we have on the roster. It is beyond belief to think that most of the injuries are simply a result of bad luck as some of the people may believe. Once again, I say look at our injury list over the past 10 years then look at our players. You will see that our players get injuried far too often and what they have in common is their below NFL average physical size (and lack of talent) they just can't compete at the physical level of their NFL counterparts. With the exception of Carter, Garcon and sometimes Wayne, all of our Offensive players are lightweights waiting for an injury to happen. On defense the only physical players is Bethea, Nevis and on occassion, Dwight Freeney. Our other players are injuries waiting to happen.

We would be a far better team and be far more competitive in not only the regular season but the playoffs if we drafted bigger, more athletic and talented players. Drafting small, injuries waiting to happen smufs like Bob Sanders, small, short no talent corners, lightweight linebackers that can't shed blockers and O lineman that rountinely get stuffed 3 yards in the of the LOS is really hurting our team and is a primary reason for all our injuries.

Edited November 3, 2011 by Fatboyslim11

[GoGoColts]

One does not need a thick study paper to see all our injuries year after year. The common denominator is all this is the type of players we have on the roster.

However, there are several articles have been posted documenting the high level of injuries over time on the Colts roster. We have posted just about every type of statistical evidence available to a fan. However, when you deal with people who use exceptions to establish rules, statistical evidence will get you no where.

[Fatboyslim11]

Our players don't get injured more often than on other teams. Sure, we were there with the Packers last year for players on IR. But that was proof that other teams had the same issues. Was it the strength and conditioning coach in Green Bay? San Diego had more injuries than us at the time they played against us in the regular season last year. Was that their S&C?

When Brady went down in 08, or when the Patriots lost 9 defenders in the first 3 games this year, plus their stud TE's, was that because they have poor S&C?

How about Charles and Berry from Kansas City? Those guys are probably the best players on each side of the ball for them, but they went out due to injury. Must be an organizational thing...

There is a ton of dumb-luck involved. If an offensive linemen trips on a pile of legs, arms, etc., and falls forward, he can't see what's above him. If a defensive lineman is locked in battle with an offensive lineman, he can't see what's below him. If the helmet of the falling player smashes into the knee of the defensive player as a result, that's just bad luck. This scenario isn't unlikely either. It happens on a weekly basis. Some guys suffer horrific injuries as a result, while others are fortunate and only take a glancing blow. It has nothing to do with strength and conditioning; those types of injuries are going to put someone down.

All of this talk about strength and conditioning is nonsensical, and just another excuse for people to scream about the part of the game they know nothing about (ie: coaching and front office). Every team has LOADS of injuries, but we are only familiar with the guys on our own team. I would bet every team forum is full of people crying about how unlucky they are.

P.S. I noticed that absolutely no one ever responds to the fact that Castonzo, Ijalana, and Nevis are not small, fast guys. They are big, powerful, athletic, and durable (per their college resumes). Yet all of them have been injured this year.

P.P.S. @GoGoColts: No area of the field has seen more shuffling as a result of injury than our offensive line, however, and those guys are not small. Our LB's often suffer injuries, and they are admittedly undersized. But that doesn't mean they are poorly conditioned, and since injuries happen all over the field to every team, it sort of negates the idea that it's our guys more so than anyone else.

Our players are injuried more often than players on other teams. If you don't or can't accept that, then too bad. Have YOU looked at our injuried/IR list and compared it to other teams? So your response is your perception, not supported by any factual data, that our injuries are similar in nature and size to other teams? Castonzo, Ijalana and Nevis are about average in height, size and weight with other NFL teams. That proves nothing since they have only been on the team for this season, and yes, EACH one of them has been injuried and missed games this year - do we a trend continuing?

I have yet to see anyone explain the cause of the yearly rash of injuries we suffer. I refuse to accept that it is all a result of bad luck. That is an excuse for losers. The NFL is a violent, full contact sport and only the best conditioned and strongest survive. To go out on the field with our poorly conditioned, strength lacking puny, injuries waiting to happen smuf players is just asking for injuries and losses.

[Smitto]

People who believe that the exception proves whatever nonsensical rule that they want to make up will never believe the long-term statistical trend, no matter how obvious and well documented statistical trend is, no matter how unlikely it is that the trend is occurring by chance. .

Exactly the colts are the worst when it comes to injuries, and its all because of the type of players, conditioning, and how they play... the colts hit their own players on defense more than they hit the defender.. horrible form when tackling.

[Fatboyslim11]

However, there are several articles have been posted documenting the high level of injuries over time on the Colts roster. We have posted just about every type of statistical evidence available to a fan. However, when you deal with people who use exceptions to establish rules, statistical evidence will get you no where.

You have sort of made the point for me in acknowledging the high level of injuries to Colts players over time. The next step is to do an analysis of the root causes of those injuries then do similar studies on injuries on other clubs and see if there are similarities. We all know the NFL is a violent game and people get hurt. But if our players get hurt more often and we are less athletic, smaller and less talented (yes that plays a part, because bigger, more talented player can take a hit better or better deliver a blow) throughout our roster. I would much rather go into the NFL battles with players who are at least NFL average in talent, size and weight rather than the small stiffs we have on our current roster.

[GoGoColts]

You have sort of made the point for me in acknowledging the high level of injuries to Colts players over time. The next step is to do an analysis of the root causes of those injuries then do similar studies on injuries on other clubs and see if there are similarities. We all know the NFL is a violent game and people get hurt. But if our players get hurt more often and we are less athletic, smaller and less talented (yes that plays a part, because bigger, more talented player can take a hit better or better deliver a blow) throughout our roster. I would much rather go into the NFL battles with players who are at least NFL average in talent, size and weight rather than the small stiffs we have on our current roster.

I agree. The issue of the Colts being more injured isn't even open for debate by reasonable people at this point because they are more injured. As you said, "The next step is to do an analysis of the root causes of those injuries then do similar studies on injuries on other clubs and see if there are similarities." And that is all.

[-JJ-]

You guys are using exceptions to prove the rule rather than looking at five years of the most injured defense and being in the 5 five in total injuries over the course of the last 3 years. I saw a big guy get injured once does not disprove anything concerning the trend of Injuries in Indianapolis. Every year teams have random fluctuations around a mean number of injuries. When a team is injured in the extreme over the course of several years, it gets less and less likely that it occurred by chance as described by Bayes theorem http://en.wikipedia....ayes%27_theorem

It is important to consider organizational issues rather than just accepting it as chance because chances become slim that the high level of injuries are by chance.

No one is denying that everyone in football is susceptible to injuries. The fact is the Colts have a clear trend of injuries that defies random chance. So we have to ask ourselves what systemic/organizational issues might be causing it. Is it the small players? Is it the lack of talent? Is it the conditioning? At this point the least likely answer is random chance.

well can you find a list of missed time for injuries over the last 5 years for all teams? That would prove your point more.