The Debate Continues........pm Vs Tb

[WSO]

I think the point Colts fans are trying to get across

2009 Colts: (14-2 L SB)

QB: Peyton Manning

RB: Joseph Addai, Donald Brown

WR: Reggie Wayne, Pierre Garcon, Austin Collie

TE: Dallas Clark

OL: Saturday, Diem, Pollack

DE: Dwight Freeney, Robert Mathis

DT: Antonio Johnson, Daniel Muir

LB: Gary Brackett, Phillip Wheeler, Clint Session

SS: Melvin Bullitt

FS: Antoine Bethea

CB: Jacob Lacey, Jeraud Powers

2011 Colts: (0-6 ?)

QB: Curtis Painter

RB: Joseph Addai, Donald Brown

WR: Reggie Wayne, Pierre Garcon, Austin Collie

TE: Dallas Clark

OL: Jeff Saturday, Ryan Diem, A Constanzo, Linkenbach, Mike Pollack??

DE: Dwight Freeney, Robert Mathis

DT: Antonio Johnston, Muir/Nevis/Foster

LB: Kavell Conner, Gary Brackett/ Pat Angerer, Phillip Wheeler

SS: Antoine Betha

FS: Melvin Bullitt/David Caldwell

CB: Jacob Lacey, Jeraud Powers

the '10 roster was incredibly injury ridden but you can see it is literally the same roster minus a LB and some O lineman

[KirkCousins#8]

That's exactly what I am saying. If they are so jealous and insecure that they have to come to a Colts forum, to make sure that threads like this don't go unchecked, it's clear what the right answer is.

HAHAHAHA!Yes,i think that answers the question after all!

[Yehoodi]

That's exactly what I am saying. If they are so jealous and insecure that they have to come to a Colts forum, to make sure that threads like this don't go unchecked, it's clear what the right answer is.

contrary to ur thinking GoGo, but some people enjoy comn to this site to discuss stuff . . . also, it can get really boring spending time with friends here in NE outside of the internet or on the internet at patriot fan forums when, for the most part, folks think TB is better than PM . . . it refreshing to come here and to listen to what fans of PM have to say and see another side of the story . . . even tho you all are a little off on the calibration . . . :wave:

[WSO]

contrary to ur thinking GoGo, but some people enjoy comn to this site to discuss stuff . . . also, it can get really boring spending time with friends here in NE outside of the internet or on the internet at patriot fan forums when, for the most part, folks think TB is better than PM . . . it refreshing to come here and to listen to what fans of PM have to say and see another side of the story . . . even tho you all are a little off on the calibration . . . :wave:

and where exactly do I go to find information on where people think TB is better than PM? Surely you are basing that off your own imagination because as far as I know there is no conclusive evidence that shows one is better than the other (this goes for both sides).

[KirkCousins#8]

contrary to ur thinking GoGo, but some people enjoy comn to this site to discuss stuff . . . also, it can get really boring spending time with friends here in NE outside of the internet or on the internet at patriot fan forums when, for the most part, folks think TB is better than PM . . . it refreshing to come here and to listen to what fans of PM have to say and see another side of the story . . . even tho you all are a little off on the calibration . . . :wave:

We're just teasin' ya.Everybody has an opinion.I'm just happy nobody has mentioned Andrew Luck in the same breath with these two!

[Yehoodi]

and where exactly do I go to find information on where people think TB is better than PM? Surely you are basing that off your own imagination because as far as I know there is no conclusive evidence that shows one is better than the other (this goes for both sides).

I can pole my friends and get back ya . . . . . . . . seriously, I was just saying why I like coming here, its fun to get into a discussion, I can't have this same discussion back here in NE, i am surrounded by pats fans and one can only do some much agreeing before it is refreshing to hear the other side . . .

[Yehoodi]

We're just teasin' ya.Everybody has an opinion.I'm just happy nobody has mentioned Andrew Luck in the same breath with these two!

thxs, i know that must be a relief . . . .but Rogers may only 5 years or so down the road and the dynamics of our discussion could change . . .

Edited October 19, 2011 by Yehoodi

[KirkCousins#8]

thxs, i know that must be a relief . . . .but Rogers may only 5 years or so down the road and the dynamics of our discussion could change . . .

I agree with you on this point,but only on the fact that rogers hasn't yet earned the right to be mentioned with these two...well,at least not yet anyway.In 5-8 years,then and only then can he join this big boys club.This is a little off topic,but i was cheering hard for the steelers to lose their last superbowl.If they had won it,then i'm sure everybody would've started talking about big ben in this discussion,even though we both know he just doesn't deserve it.

[Yehoodi]

It was done by hand and actually my brother did it and I think he might have used Yahoo, espn or NFL.com, they are all pretty much the same as well, but it wasn't by division . It's just when the teams played the same opponent in any given year.

For example

2010 SD

2009 BUF, NYJ, BAL, TEN, MIA, BUF, JAX, HOU

2008 NA due to Brady's injury

2007 BAL, SD

2006 BUF NYJ DEN CIN MIA HOU JAX TEN

2005 PIT SD

2004 KC BAL

2003 BUF NYJ TEN MIA CLE DEN HOU JAX

2002 PIT MIA DEN TEN

2001 MIA DEN ATL BUF NO NYJ

In years 03 06,09 Brady would have played Buffalo, Miami and the Jets twice, while Manning would play Houston, Tennessee, & Jacksonville twice.

It's just one view of trying to compare apples to apples, even though there is a chance that a team Manning played was quite different than a team Brady played based on injuries and such. I just found it interesting.

On my monitor it's not clear what was bolded and what wasn't. The stat line was just all of the individual stats in those games totaled up.

great thanks for postering, had a few more moments now that I am home . . . I really like your, and your brothers, idea . . . nice view on it . . . in sports it is always tough to compare two great competitors within the sport especially team sports, and in football it made more difficult given that each player does not play the entire game, it is a team game with more players than any other team sports, different field conditions, different environment conditions, and with so few games in football one stats can be skewed as opposed to another (i.e. teams don't play ever team in the league and some years you may only play tough teams or weaker teams) . . .

for me i try to find a way to look at two competitors on even turf if you will, and your list does such that . . . i would be interest to see how the numbers differ when one factors the numbers with the 2v1 games in the players respective divisions (perhaps taking an average of the 2 games within the division and using the average for a one game basis) . . . i actually mentioned in a earlier post about looking at PM and TB numbers against their respective divisions (of coarse one would have to take out each teams as the opponent, so one would look at TB versus the AFC south and take out TB # against indy and then when you look at PM's AFC south numbers it will be against the same 3 teams, and vice versa with the AFC East) . . . and just doing that alone does bring the numbers closer together than some may think . . .

I think the are some (and not many here) but in the national media that look to PM's numbers and say they are much better than TB's but when one tries to look at things on a even playing field as i mentioned and as you have done, things are not as far apart as some originally thought . . .

Edited October 20, 2011 by Yehoodi

[Yehoodi]

I agree with you on this point,but only on the fact that rogers hasn't yet earned the right to be mentioned with these two...well,at least not yet anyway.In 5-8 years,then and only then can he join this big boys club.This is a little off topic,but i was cheering hard for the steelers to lose their last superbowl.If they had won it,then i'm sure everybody would've started talking about big ben in this discussion,even though we both know he just doesn't deserve it.

Ya, i don't want to sound like an arrogant TB/PM fan, but to be honest, both have a strong body of work, and not just a few years . . . I look at TB 2001-2007, 2010+, a solid 8 years, and PM's 2003-2009+ a solid 8 years with 1998-2002 adding filler to the discussion . . . so for me for one to be in the same breath, i think you need at least a six year run min . . . for me, and maybe rogers, brees, ryan, or even Rivers may be in that discussion 5-6 years down the road . . .

yah as for Big Ben, I am really like him (altho i could do without the off field stuff and he being kind a prima donna at times), and he does have two rings and if he gotten a third (or does get a third) then things could get a little dicey . . . one on hand tho he does do what is necessary to win in his situation, extends plays and is the master, maybe the best among active QBs, at getting positive yards on a broken play . . . and he is a winner . . . but on the other hand he has had solid defense since he had been in the league, the steelers under his watch have missed a few playoffs and had a few 500 type seasons, and not to get too whiny, i think got some help from the boys in stripes in the two SBs . . .

[JoKeR]

And NFL coaches have voted on taking Brady over Peyton.

NFL players have said that Brady is better than Peyton.

Brady was just being polite.

Really? Why didn't they put Brady before Peyton in Top 100 players of all-time?

[FireJimCaldwell]

great thanks for postering, had a few more moments now that I am home . . . I really like your, and your brothers, idea . . . nice view on it . . . in sports it is always tough to compare two great competitors within the sport especially team sports, and in football it made more difficult given that each player does not play the entire game, it is a team game with more players than any other team sports, different field conditions, different environment conditions, and with so few games in football one stats can be skewed as opposed to another (i.e. teams don't play ever team in the league and some years you may only play tough teams or weaker teams) . . .

for me i try to find a way to look at two competitors on even turf if you will, and your list does such that . . . i would be interest to see how the numbers differ when one factors the numbers with the 2v1 games in the players respective divisions (perhaps taking an average of the 2 games within the division and using the average for a one game basis) . . . i actually mentioned in a earlier post about looking at PM and TB numbers against their respective divisions (of coarse one would have to take out each teams as the opponent, so one would look at TB versus the AFC south and take out TB # against indy and then when you look at PM's AFC south numbers it will be against the same 3 teams, and vice versa with the AFC East) . . . and just doing that alone does bring the numbers closer together than some may think . . .

I think the are some (and not many here) but in the national media that look to PM's numbers and say they are much better than TB's but when one tries to look at things on a even playing field as i mentioned and as you have done, things are not as far apart as some originally thought . . .

No problem.

There are so many variables involved. Brady could have played a team with the starting QB, which can alter the other side of the ball as we all know, and Manning might have played the same team later in the year with a back up or that could be switched. I've looked at the #'s vs. insert team name here, and that is hard to do, because the Saints of 2003, and the modern Saints are completely different offensively & defensively, so it's harder to look at, but with the players playing the team in the same season I felt it gave a little bit more resemblance to apples to apples, even though that could change if they played the team in back to back weeks.

Taking an average of Brady vs. Miami and Manning vs. Jacksonville as example might be a decent way of looking at it. The total games would have been identical if Brady had started the Jets game that Bledsoe was hurt in, and if they were in the same division they would have even more common opponents to look at.

Using the "indoors argument" that one of your fellow Patriot fans brought up. Yeah Brady has a better career QB rating indoors than Manning, but he didn't seem to look into that with any depth because if he would have, I don't believe he would have used as some form a trump card. a) Manning has played more indoor games, he played weak teams/defenses at home, average teams/defenses at home, and great teams/defenses at home. For the most part when he's played in a dome on the road, he's usually played a weaker team/defense, so when I took the time to look at his numbers in domes on the road, his totals exceeded Brady.

Looking at their splits and trying to find comparable # of games is complicated.

On Grass Manning has played 74 to Brady's 84 games, with Manning having an edge in QB Rating.

Turf is out the window of a close comparison since Manning has played twice the # of games Brady has with Brady having an edge in QBR.

Night games is 43 to 32

Precipitation 13 to 8 but that's a small sample size.

Warm 40 to 42 games might be the closest comparison with a decent quantity of games.

Hot games are fairly close, but still a pretty small sample size.

Yet each of those are also dependent on the opponent, which I feel is a much larger variable than the weather, location, or time of day, or anything like that.

I know when it's Colts/Patriots they usually show head to head comparison of those games, and I'm sure Brady would rather face the Colts than his own D more times than not especially the way they used to have stories about Law, Harrison & Milloy picking him off and having him throw tantrums, I bet Peyton would lick his chops to go against our defense over time, so those comparisons weren't always fair since they weren't competing against the same team/coach.

I'm not sure what the best way to judge them in. Overall stats are slanted since Manning started as a rookie. If Manning returns he'll likely have an edge of games played unless Brady plays well beyond the Manning retirement. I still think that if he is healthy that Manning hasn't signed his last contract, but time will tell.

I just thought the common opponents would be a neat take and I'm not surprised that Brady has a better record and that Manning has an edge in the passing #'s.

Brady is 100 times the qb now than he was on any of his Championship teams at this point, so it is a bit odd that he hasn't had even more success than he did early in his career, but he's earning more $ now so that's less money to spend elsewhere. Its just one of those things that makes this game interesting.

[GoGoColts]

Really? Why didn't they put Brady before Peyton in Top 100 players of all-time?

When you look at the statistical leaders over the years, Brady has always fallen short when compared to his contemporaries. Brian Kenny makes some good points about how overated Tom Brady is.

[21isSuperman]

This thread is going nowhere. It's another pointless Brady-Manning debate. This topic is closed