Will Marvin be a first-ballot hof'er? [Merge]

[GoColts8818]

Walter Jones is eligible next year and I would think he is a lock.

http://nfl.si.com/2013/08/02/pro-football-hall-of-fame-2014-class/

That's where I got those names from, maybe Walter Jones just slipped his mind.

[smittywerb]

When it comes to Marvin, he has the career for it, he has the stats for it, but playing with Manning, that murder stuff, and his rumored incidents on the field is what's going to hold him back.

[GoColts8818]

When it comes to Marvin, he has the career for it, he has the stats for it, but playing with Manning, that murder stuff, and his rumored incidents on the field is what's going to hold him back.

did playing with Montana, Young, and Gannon hold Rice back?

A guy who votes on this said on the radio last week you can't hold the murder stuff against Marvin because he was never even charged with anything let alone convicted.

If anything keeps Marvin out it would be te attitude WRs have to wait but if you keep Marvin out no WR is going in on the first ballot for a long time which means at worst he goes in next year.

[the cardinal]

he gets in for sure and is still one of GOAT receivers, but I think his severe drop in numbers during the playoffs might hamper him in getting in first ballot.

 

Yeah, IA. Not sure why people are downplaying this, but it's a real problem with Marvin. If he doesn’t get in first ballot it’ll probably be because of his postseason play.  Someone in that room will stand up and say: Accounting for 14 total points over the course of 10 postseasons isn’t impressive at all.  He had as many TDs as TOs in the postseason.  He averaged 4 catches and 55 yds per game, which would be nice stats for a ho-hum 2nd WR. Both of his TDs came in one game, a blowout.  So… outside of that one game he never scored another TD and he never had another 100 yd performance.

 

16 games, 65 receptions, 883 yards, 2 TDs, 1 2PM, 14 PTS

 

That’s an entire season.  Forget the HOF, a WR with that season would be lucky to make the Pro Bowl. If you didn’t know Marvin was considered an all-time great WR and you watched those games with the sound off… you wouldn’t be able to tell he was.  

 

Compare his post-season stats with Moss and TO:

 

Moss: 15 games, 54 receptions, 977 yards, 10 TDs, 60 PTS

TO: 12 games, 54 receptions, 751 yards, 5 TDs, 2 2PM, 34 PTS

 

Both on course for 1,000 yard, Pro Bowl-type seasons with a minimum of 7 TDs and over 50 & 31 points more production than Marvin. (Moss 64, TO 45, Marvin 14)  Even without projecting their numbers both managed more TDs and total points in fewer games.  Moss’ stats for Minny alone destroy Marvin’s entire post-season career. That’s with a combination of old Cunningham, Jeff George and Culpepper throwing to him, not an all-time great in his prime like Manning. TO only had Young for 4 games, the rest are all non-HOF QBs, two are notorious for shaky post-seasons (Romo and McNabb).

 

I bet that’s what will keep him out on the first ballot. Not any of that stuff in Philly or his clamming up with the media.

[Superman]

Yeah, IA. Not sure why people are downplaying this, but it's a real problem with Marvin. If he doesn’t get in first ballot it’ll probably be because of his postseason play.  Someone in that room will stand up and say: Accounting for 14 total points over the course of 10 postseasons isn’t impressive at all.  He had as many TDs as TOs in the postseason.  He averaged 4 catches and 55 yds per game, which would be nice stats for a ho-hum 2nd WR. Both of his TDs came in one game, a blowout.  So… outside of that one game he never scored another TD and he never had another 100 yd performance.

 

16 games, 65 receptions, 883 yards, 2 TDs, 1 2PM, 14 PTS

 

That’s an entire season.  Forget the HOF, a WR with that season would be lucky to make the Pro Bowl. If you didn’t know Marvin was considered an all-time great WR and you watched those games with the sound off… you wouldn’t be able to tell he was.  

 

Compare his post-season stats with Moss and TO:

 

Moss: 15 games, 54 receptions, 977 yards, 10 TDs, 60 PTS

TO: 12 games, 54 receptions, 751 yards, 5 TDs, 2 2PM, 34 PTS

 

Both on course for 1,000 yard, Pro Bowl-type seasons with a minimum of 7 TDs and over 50 & 31 points more production than Marvin. (Moss 64, TO 45, Marvin 14)  Even without projecting their numbers both managed more TDs and total points in fewer games.  Moss’ stats for Minny alone destroy Marvin’s entire post-season career. That’s with a combination of old Cunningham, Jeff George and Culpepper throwing to him, not an all-time great in his prime like Manning. TO only had Young for 4 games, the rest are all non-HOF QBs, two are notorious for shaky post-seasons (Romo and McNabb).

 

I bet that’s what will keep him out on the first ballot. Not any of that stuff in Philly or his clamming up with the media.

 

Neither of those lines for Moss or TO represent Pro Bowl type seasons for a receiver. Not in the eras they played in. They both have Marvin in touchdowns, but the catches and yards are very close.

 

And, as always, I don't think a player's 200 game career should be reduced to 12-16 games in the postseason, against the best teams in the NFL. Sure, it's part of the discussion, but "Marvin wasn't great in the postseason" isn't an adequate enough reason not to vote for him as a HOFer.

[Superman]

No I probably wouldnt vote for Marvin. 

 

I think for me it would probably go something along the lines of: Strahan, Tim Brown, Walter Jones, Eddie Debartolo, Derrick Brooks (i cant see him being a 1st ballot tho), Dungy, probably  Kevin Greene.....

 

Its really tough. I dont think Bettis should get in, but I bet he does. Will Shields WILL get in, but i dont know if it will be this yr, with Jones....I love Annees Williams, and he's got a good head start already being a finalist. But i was a HUGE Steve Atwater fan, I loved that guy, but I dont know he makes it...Taglibue will 100% make it.....Mortan Anderson is going to be very interesting....

 

Then after that, its going to be a foot race. 2015 may be the most interesting of all time. I am super curious as to the Kurt Warner angle. Pace, Mawea,Ty Law, Seau.....That class has an easy 4, just depends on when.  

 

So, aside from the fact that Tim Brown has been waiting, for what reason would you vote for him ahead of Marvin?

[the cardinal]

Neither of those lines for Moss or TO represent Pro Bowl type seasons for a receiver. Not in the eras they played in. They both have Marvin in touchdowns, but the catches and yards are very close.

 

And, as always, I don't think a player's 200 game career should be reduced to 12-16 games in the postseason, against the best teams in the NFL. Sure, it's part of the discussion, but "Marvin wasn't great in the postseason" isn't an adequate enough reason not to vote for him as a HOFer.

 

Moss' stats adjusted for 16 games is in line with a Pro Bowl season, TO's is borderline, but there are some classic catches and games in there imo.

 

I expect some drop off in post-season production for a WR, but Marvin's is extreme. Producing only 2 TDs and 14 total points in 10 years of games when paired with a HOF QB in his prime is significant. 16 games is a decent sample size too.

 

I'm not saying his entire career should be reduced to his post-season. No way. But I think the voters will definitely take his drop off into consideration. First ballot players usually have very few holes in their on-the field resume and you can drive a bus through his.

[Superman]

Moss' stats adjusted for 16 games is in line with a Pro Bowl season, TO's is borderline, but there are some classic catches and games in there imo.

 

I expect some drop off in post-season production for a WR, but Marvin's is extreme. Producing only 2 TDs and 14 total points in 10 years of games when paired with a HOF QB in his prime is significant. 16 games is a decent sample size too.

 

I'm not saying his entire career should be reduced to his post-season. No way. But I think the voters will definitely take his drop off into consideration. First ballot players usually have very few holes in their on-the field resume and you can drive a bus through his.

 

I disagree.

 

Moss stats adjusted for 16 games are 58 catches, 1,042 yards, 11 touchdowns. Solid season, but not Pro Bowl caliber. Maybe Pro Bowl replacement caliber...

 

Same for TO: 72 catches, 1,001 yards, 7 touchdowns. 

 

They are both better than Marvin, but well off the beaten path for a full season from a Pro Bowl receiver. And that's pretty much what happens in the playoffs, where catches, yards and touchdowns are harder to come by.

[IndyTrav]

So, aside from the fact that Tim Brown has been waiting, for what reason would you vote for him ahead of Marvin?

 

Longevity, bigger 'team' impact (over 4500 more APY),  similar production with far less superior talent. 

 

Tim Brown was one heck of a forgotten talent. 

[GoColts8818]

Longevity, bigger 'team' impact (over 4500 more APY),  similar production with far less superior talent. 

 

Tim Brown was one heck of a forgotten talent. 

That's not how they vote on the Hall of Fame, they didn't go Jerry Rice had the greatest WR numbers but man the third best QB he played with during his career was a League MVP and he played with two Hall of Fame QBs and one who might be the best of all-time so maybe we better knock Jerry down some.  The only two things Brown has on Marvin total all purpose yards and two more Touchdowns than Marvin.  He also played 17 years to Marvin's 13.  Something that will come up is that Marvin played about three to five years less than most of these WRs and has mostly better numbers than them and the ones he doesn't have better than them he's right on their heels.

 

Also that "talent" cuts both ways, don't you think Marvin would have had a few more TDs if he wasn't playing on the other side of Reggie Wayne for a good chunk of his career?  That's why it's not a good thing to use.  There were a lot of years where Tim Brown was the good player on a bad team and to use a basketball comparison at some point someone has to put up numbers. 

 

They look at things like what you have done and judge you on that.  When you do that Marvin has an extremely strong case to go in as a first ballot guy.  Again I don't get why people seem to be trying to find any reason they can find to say Marvin shouldn't go into the Hall.  There is nothing wrong with saying our guys are good they should go to the Hall.  Marvin is at worst one of the top players to ever play his position in the history of the NFL, you can argue he was as high as second, if that doesn't deserve to go in on the first ballot I don't know what does. 

 

With that said all this time we are spending arguing Marvin vs. Brown might not come down to that, they both might very well go in together next year.  Personally I would say both should go in this year if I had a vote when I look at who else is eligible to go in because I do agree Brown was a heck of a talent himself, I just think Marvin was better.

[the cardinal]

I disagree.

 

Moss stats adjusted for 16 games are 58 catches, 1,042 yards, 11 touchdowns. Solid season, but not Pro Bowl caliber. Maybe Pro Bowl replacement caliber...

 

Same for TO: 72 catches, 1,001 yards, 7 touchdowns. 

 

They are both better than Marvin, but well off the beaten path for a full season from a Pro Bowl receiver. And that's pretty much what happens in the playoffs, where catches, yards and touchdowns are harder to come by.

 

Lol. As much as I hate math, I actually did the numbers and compared them some recent Pro Bowlers before I typed it and thought it was close enough to argue.  But okay.  I’m not married that statement.  Regardless, both are much more in line with what's expected of a HOF WR during the post-season, especially when adjusted for post-season caliber teams, defenses and style of play.  Marvin's stats, especially outside of that Denver game, aren't.  Even using the eyeball test, like I said above.  And that’s the point some voter will make.  It’s just too glaring a drop off.  And when you compare it to the other two WRs in his tier: Moss produced 50 more points than Marvin’s 14. TO 31. Both with 3 times as many 100 yd games.  Big gap. 

[GoColts8818]

Lol. As much as I hate math, I actually did the numbers and compared them some recent Pro Bowlers before I typed it and thought it was close enough to argue.  But okay.  I’m not married that statement.  Regardless, both are much more in line with what's expected of a HOF WR during the post-season, especially when adjusted for post-season caliber teams, defenses and style of play.  Marvin's stats, especially outside of that Denver game, aren't.  Even using the eyeball test, like I said above.  And that’s the point some voter will make.  It’s just too glaring a drop off.  And when you compare it to the other two WRs in his tier: Moss produced 50 more points than Marvin’s 14. TO 31. Both with 3 times as many 100 yd games.  Big gap. 

So if it's about what you did in the post season then Peyton Manning shouldn't be going into the Hall of Fame either.  Heck if it's about what you've done in the playoffs the only Colt that should be going into the Hall in recent memory is Reggie Wayne.  Like Superman before you can't use post season performance as a trump card when comparing careers because it is a very small sample of a career. 

[the cardinal]

So if it's about what you did in the post season then Peyton Manning shouldn't be going into the Hall of Fame either.  Heck if it's about what you've done in the playoffs the only Colt that should be going into the Hall in recent memory is Reggie Wayne.  Like Superman before you can't use post season performance as a trump card when comparing careers because it is a very small sample of a career. 

 

Huh? I never once made the argument that Marvin shouldn't go into the HOF.  Please re-read my posts above. Ideally a HOFer is a HOFer. But that's not the current system.  Voters do make distinctions when it comes to 1st ballot and it's very likely someone in that room will make the case I made in my first post. Those numbers are just too glaring.  It's not about throwing away an entire career, it's making distinctions between other greats.

[GoColts8818]

Huh? I never once made the argument that Marvin shouldn't go into the HOF.  Please re-read my posts above. Ideally a HOFer is a HOFer. But that's not the current system.  Voters do make distinctions when it comes to 1st ballot and it's very likely someone in that room will make the case I made in my first post. Those numbers are just too glaring.  It's not about throwing away an entire career, it's making distinctions between other greats.

You are using Marvin's playoff numbers to argue he's not as good as Owens and Moss.  If that's the case Manning isn't one of the better QBs of his generation let alone all-time if you base it off the playoffs.  It's a factor not THE factor that some try to use it as rather it be for the Hall of Fame or just simple list of who is the best player at his positions. 

[Superman]

Longevity, bigger 'team' impact (over 4500 more APY), similar production with far less superior talent.

Tim Brown was one heck of a forgotten talent.

That's fair. I haven't forgotten Tim Brown, and I do think he should be in. I just think Marvin was a better receiver. But Brown's overall contributions are definitely relevant.

[Superman]

That's not how they vote on the Hall of Fame, they didn't go Jerry Rice had the greatest WR numbers but man the third best QB he played with during his career was a League MVP and he played with two Hall of Fame QBs and one who might be the best of all-time so maybe we better knock Jerry down some. The only two things Brown has on Marvin total all purpose yards and two more Touchdowns than Marvin. He also played 17 years to Marvin's 13. Something that will come up is that Marvin played about three to five years less than most of these WRs and has mostly better numbers than them and the ones he doesn't have better than them he's right on their heels.

Also that "talent" cuts both ways, don't you think Marvin would have had a few more TDs if he wasn't playing on the other side of Reggie Wayne for a good chunk of his career? That's why it's not a good thing to use. There were a lot of years where Tim Brown was the good player on a bad team and to use a basketball comparison at some point someone has to put up numbers.

They look at things like what you have done and judge you on that. When you do that Marvin has an extremely strong case to go in as a first ballot guy. Again I don't get why people seem to be trying to find any reason they can find to say Marvin shouldn't go into the Hall. There is nothing wrong with saying our guys are good they should go to the Hall. Marvin is at worst one of the top players to ever play his position in the history of the NFL, you can argue he was as high as second, if that doesn't deserve to go in on the first ballot I don't know what does.

With that said all this time we are spending arguing Marvin vs. Brown might not come down to that, they both might very well go in together next year. Personally I would say both should go in this year if I had a vote when I look at who else is eligible to go in because I do agree Brown was a heck of a talent himself, I just think Marvin was better.

When you have two guys on a similar level, everything gets considered.

[the cardinal]

You are using Marvin's playoff numbers to argue he's not as good as Owens and Moss.  If that's the case Manning isn't one of the better QBs of his generation let alone all-time if you base it off the playoffs.  It's a factor not THE factor that some try to use it as rather it be for the Hall of Fame or just simple list of who is the best player at his positions. 

 

I get that, that's why I was veerry reluctant to post about this.  I know you guys aren't the biggest fans of the "post-season drop off" argument. Lol. The pregame anxiety got the best of me...

 

But in this case, I do think it's valid and it will probably be made.

 

I only used Moss and TO because they're in Marvin's tier and played in overlapping eras. Both were definitely better playoff performers than Marvin. As to who's best. Well... All three had significant on-field flaws that you could argue may keep them out on the 1st ballot: TO's hands, Marvin's horrible playoff numbers, Moss' reluctance to go over the middle and his unforgivable quit job in Oakland. (I'm ignoring any off-field biases against all three even though that will probably be a factor too. Human voters.)

[GoColts8818]

When you have two guys on a similar level, everything gets considered.

I really doubt they are going to major stock in the fact that Marvin played with Manning and Brown didn't.  Honestly I've always thought fans put way more stock in the fact a guy played with Manning than media and former players to do.  They seem to get Marvin had a hand in Manning being as good as he was as much as Manning had a hand in Marvin being as good as he was.  It's understood generally speaking great QBs and great WRs tend to go hand-and-hand.  I know Brown is an exception to that but even he played with a league MVP for part of his career.

 

I think the fact that they have similar numbers and the fact Brown played four more years than Marvin off sets the "Manning factor" and will probably help Marvin's case more than the "Manning factor" will help Brown's.  With that said like I said before it might very well not come down to come Marvin vs. Brown, it's more of a question of if he should go into the Hall of Fame and really the only argument people can use to keep Marvin out is I don't put WRs in on the first ballot argument because outside of Jerry Rice it's been a while since one went in on the first ballot.  With that said other than Rice's it's been a while since one came along with as strong of case as Marvin too. 

[GoColts8818]

I get that, that's why I was veerry reluctant to post about this.  I know you guys aren't the biggest fans of the "post-season drop off" argument. Lol. The pregame anxiety got the best of me...

 

But in this case, I do think it's valid and it will probably be made.

 

I only used Moss and TO because they're in Marvin's tier and played in overlapping eras. Both were definitely better playoff performers than Marvin. As to who's best. Well... All three had significant on-field flaws that you could argue may keep them out on the 1st ballot: TO's hands, Marvin's horrible playoff numbers, Moss' reluctance to go over the middle and his unforgivable quit job in Oakland. (I'm ignoring any off-field biases against all three even though that will probably be a factor too. Human voters.)

Marvin also isn't up against Moss or TO for the Hall of Fame this year either, again like Ward comparing Marvin to them in regards to the Hall of Fame this year is a moot point.  He's up against the likes of Brown and Reed this year at the WR spot.  Again, they put Cris Carter in before Tim Brown.  Carter for the most part had better number than Brown.  Harrison for the most part has better numbers than Carter.  Based on that it's hard to argue for Brown to go in before Marvin. 

 

They will look at Marvin's post season numbers as they should.  However, I don't think it's some major trump card that some people do.  They will also see the fact Marvin has a Super Bowl ring, something Carter and Reed (as well as TO and Moss for that) don't have. 

[Guest TeamLoloJones]

I really doubt they are going to major stock in the fact that Marvin played with Manning and Brown didn't.  Honestly I've always thought fans put way more stock in the fact a guy played with Manning than media and former players to do.  They seem to get Marvin had a hand in Manning being as good as he was as much as Manning had a hand in Marvin being as good as he was.  It's understood generally speaking great QBs and great WRs tend to go hand-and-hand.  I know Brown is an exception to that but even he played with a league MVP for part of his career.

 

I think the fact that they have similar numbers and the fact Brown played four more years than Marvin off sets the "Manning factor" and will probably help Marvin's case more than the "Manning factor" will help Brown's.  With that said like I said before it might very well not come down to come Marvin vs. Brown, it's more of a question of if he should go into the Hall of Fame and really the only argument people can use to keep Marvin out is I don't put WRs in on the first ballot argument because outside of Jerry Rice it's been a while since one went in on the first ballot.  With that said other than Rice's it's been a while since one came along with as strong of case as Marvin too. 

Rice played with Montana and Young, and using that as a case against him is *ic.  Same goes for Marvin playing with Peyton

[GoColts8818]

Rice played with Montana and Young, and using that as a case against him is *ic.  Same goes for Marvin playing with Peyton

That was my point from the get go. 

[OldManP]

LOLOL ugh...

 

...therefore, Marvin being better than Berry should easily be a Hall of Famer.

 

Raymond never was involved in the sordid antics of Marvin.  He was pure class.

[OldManP]

LOLOL ugh...

 

...therefore, Marvin being better than Berry should easily be a Hall of Famer.

 

Raymond never was involved in the sordid antics of Marvin.  He was pure class.

[Dustin]

Raymond never was involved in the sordid antics of Marvin. He was pure class.

Irrelevant to HOF voting.

[BOTT]

I really doubt they are going to major stock in the fact that Marvin played with Manning and Brown didn't.  Honestly I've always thought fans put way more stock in the fact a guy played with Manning than media and former players to do.  They seem to get Marvin had a hand in Manning being as good as he was as much as Manning had a hand in Marvin being as good as he was.  It's understood generally speaking great QBs and great WRs tend to go hand-and-hand.  I know Brown is an exception to that but even he played with a league MVP for part of his career.

 

I think the fact that they have similar numbers and the fact Brown played four more years than Marvin off sets the "Manning factor" and will probably help Marvin's case more than the "Manning factor" will help Brown's.  With that said like I said before it might very well not come down to come Marvin vs. Brown, it's more of a question of if he should go into the Hall of Fame and really the only argument people can use to keep Marvin out is I don't put WRs in on the first ballot argument because outside of Jerry Rice it's been a while since one went in on the first ballot.  With that said other than Rice's it's been a while since one came along with as strong of case as Marvin too.

John Clayton has said the voters do bring up who these guys play with. I doubt they penalize receivers playing with top quarterbacks, but to not recognize someone like Tim Brown played with poop for most of his career would be....well, unfair.

[GoColts8818]

John Clayton has said the voters do bring up who these guys play with. I doubt they penalize receivers playing with top quarterbacks, but to not recognize someone like Tim Brown played with poop for most of his career would be....well, unfair.

As it would be to realize that he also played four years longer than Marvin and put up slightly less numbers for the most part.  If Marvin played 17 years like Brown did he would have blown Brown out of the water and ended up fairly close to Rice's numbers. 

[BOTT]

As it would be to realize that he also played four years longer than Marvin and put up slightly less numbers for the most part.  If Marvin played 17 years like Brown did he would have blown Brown out of the water and ended up fairly close to Rice's numbers.

Well yes, because Brown was forced to play with crap.

[GoColts8818]

Well yes, because Brown was forced to play with crap.

or because Marvin was really good himself, I am not arguing that Brown wasn't.  I've said I would vote for both men to go to the Hall next year but I do think Marvin was better and like it or not the numbers back that up and Brown did have years where he played with a MVP QB and Jerry Rice and still didn't have a single season like Marvin Harrison had at points in his career.  Marvin didn't solely benefit from playing with Manning sometimes Manning benefited from playing with Marvin.  That's why that's not a major factor.  It's really hard to say how much each benefited from the other.  They will talk about it but it's not this trump card you seem to be trying to make it out to be. 

[The Old Crow]

Irrelevant to HOF voting.

 

OJ is in, Ray Lewis will be in, so the shooting stuff may not hurt Marvin. After reading some of these posts, I looked into the Marvin Harrison /Philadelphia incidents, and they are very bizarre. His actions in Philly really contradict the image of him during his playing career. A very odd situation. Also, he is no Raymond Berry. Raymond Berry set the bar for timing patterns, and was an originator with Unitas. 

[GoColts8818]

OJ is in, Ray Lewis will be in, so the shooting stuff may not hurt Marvin. After reading some of these posts, I looked into the Marvin Harrison /Philadelphia incidents, and they are very bizarre. His actions in Philly really contradict the image of him during his playing career. A very odd situation. Also, he is no Raymond Berry. Raymond Berry set the bar for timing patterns, and was an originator with Unitas. 

In fairness OJ was elected to the Hall WAY before any of his legal troubles began. 

[BOTT]

or because Marvin was really good himself, I am not arguing that Brown wasn't.  I've said I would vote for both men to go to the Hall next year but I do think Marvin was better and like it or not the numbers back that up and Brown did have years where he played with a MVP QB and Jerry Rice and still didn't have a single season like Marvin Harrison had at points in his career.  Marvin didn't solely benefit from playing with Manning sometimes Manning benefited from playing with Marvin.  That's why that's not a major factor.  It's really hard to say how much each benefited from the other.  They will talk about it but it's not this trump card you seem to be trying to make it out to be.

He played with a good QB in Rich Gannon.....after being the NFL for 12 years.

And I never said it was a trump card...I never even said brown deserved to go in before Marvin. But to not acknowledge circumstances is just being blind.

[GoColts8818]

He played with a good QB in Rich Gannon.....after being the NFL for 12 years.

And I never said it was a trump card...I never even said brown deserved to go in before Marvin. But to not acknowledge circumstances is just being blind.

I am acknowledging circumstances, and even when you do I still think Marvin was better.  This idea that that he should have some of his greatness taken away from because he played with Manning is a little bit laughable.  Is Jerry Rice any less great because he played with two Hall of Famers (one of which many feel is the greatest QB of all time) and a League MVP at QB? 

 

You can factor it in but I just don't think it holds much weight.  Like I said in another post if we are going to factor in circumstances you also have to factor in the fact that Marvin played four less years than Brown and still put up better numbers than him for the most part even if it was with Peyton Manning. 

[BOTT]

I am acknowledging circumstances, and even when you do I still think Marvin was better.  This idea that that he should have some of his greatness taken away from because he played with Manning is a little bit laughable.  Is Jerry Rice any less great because he played with two Hall of Famers (one of which many feel is the greatest QB of all time) and a League MVP at QB? 

 

You can factor it in but I just don't think it holds much weight.  Like I said in another post if we are going to factor in circumstances you also have to factor in the fact that Marvin played four less years than Brown and still put up better numbers than him for the most part even if it was with Peyton Manning.

It is laughable.....good thing I never said or hinted at such a thing. So I don't know why you asking me such a silly question about jerry rice.

[GoColts8818]

It is laughable.....good thing I never said or hinted at such a thing. So I don't know why you asking me such a silly question about jerry rice.

because you keep trying to say yeah but Marvin played with Peyton and Brown didn't play with anyone.  So if we have to take away from Marvin because he played with someone great why don't we have to do it for Rice?

[BOTT]

because you keep trying to say yeah but Marvin played with Peyton and Brown didn't play with anyone.  So if we have to take away from Marvin because he played with someone great why don't we have to do it for Rice?

I have never mentioned Marvin playing with Peyton....not once. I'm just acknowledging Brown played a long list of crap for over a decade.

[GoColts8818]

I have never mentioned Marvin playing with Peyton....not once. I'm just acknowledging Brown played a long list of crap for over a decade.

which is implying that Marvin didn't or else why bring it up at all?  Okay Marvin played on better teams than Brown why should that be held against Marvin?  Marvin had a hand in why those Colts teams were so good.  it's fine to use to help make a case for Brown to go to the Hall that he did good things on bad teams it's another to be saying well since Brown was on a bad team and Marvin was on a good team Brown should go in ahead of him which is how you are coming across even if you don't mean too at least to me. 

 

Yes Brown played on some bad Raiders teams I've said that, even when you factor that in though Marvin still has more plus's in his box than Brown does IMO.  With that said I would vote for both of them for the hall this year. 

[BOTT]

which is implying that Marvin didn't or else why bring it up at all? Okay Marvin played on better teams than Brown why should that be held against Marvin? Marvin had a hand in why those Colts teams were so good. it's fine to use to help make a case for Brown to go to the Hall that he did good things on bad teams it's another to be saying well since Brown was on a bad team and Marvin was on a good team Brown should go in ahead of him which is how you are coming across even if you don't mean too at least to me.

Yes Brown played on some bad Raiders teams I've said that, even when you factor that in though Marvin still has more plus's in his box than Brown does IMO. With that said I would vote for both of them for the hall this year.

Well, you are going to continue put words in my mouth and tell me what I'm thinking, so think what you want

[GoColts8818]

Well, you are going to continue put words in my mouth and tell me what I'm thinking, so think what you want

I didn't tell you what you were thinking I was telling you how you were coming across at least to me. 

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

I didn't even look at all the other posts just stop. Marvin was the % and will be easily a first ballot guy not even close!

[smittywerb]

did playing with Montana, Young, and Gannon hold Rice back?

A guy who votes on this said on the radio last week you can't hold the murder stuff against Marvin because he was never even charged with anything let alone convicted.

If anything keeps Marvin out it would be te attitude WRs have to wait but if you keep Marvin out no WR is going in on the first ballot for a long time which means at worst he goes in next year.

 

Oh no, I think he should definitely be a 1st Ballot HOFer, I'm just regurgitating the nonsense that other fans have told me.  If you ask me, I think Marvin is in the discussion of being a top 5 WR to play the game.

I'm sorry if I confused anyone.  Starvin Marvin is definitely a HOFer in my eyes.