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Guest BlueShoe
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Im not really sure what you're getting at. You're trying to make the case that Peytons quick release is why the Colts passing protection has been ranked high for 7 straight years, and you're pointing to the number of sacks they gave up in 1998 as compared to 1997 in order to prove it?

It tells the story about how fast Peyton was at getting rid of the ball even as a rookie.

He is just that good. I don't expect for you to understand this at all or take any evidence I give you as an eye opening experience. You're not capable of seeing past the truth that is the best quarterback who has ever played this game. It would hurt your little “Tommy Brady feelings” too much.

So did you do the work and find the answers? lol

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I know this is hard for you an all. I mean you're so used to coming here and getting to "tell Colts fans how it is" and now you have met someone who doesn't care what you have to say. But do you have to cry about it too? lol

Don't flatter yourself. I've had spirited discussions with plenty of Colts fans who were a lot better at this than you are and who were capable of, you know, actually presenting facts, and not just subjective observations.

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it's called laser-rocket release

with a bad line, you need a quick release or great scrambling. we all know what category manning falls into

Here's the problem with such a claim.

Are you honestly telling me that the Colts' WRs and TEs somehow got down the field THAT fast? If so, they'd throw the shortest passes on average in NFL history.

Sorry, it doesn't add up.

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Guest BlueShoe

Here's the problem with such a claim.

Are you honestly telling me that the Colts' WRs and TEs somehow got down the field THAT fast? If so, they'd throw the shortest passes on average in NFL history.

Sorry, it doesn't add up.

Actually most of what we threw last season was bubble screens and plays that only developed 5-10 yards out. We didn't have the time to develop anything deep down the field and we couldn't scare defenses off of us by running the ball either so they just crowded the line and we played last season in a very tight space.

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Guest BlueShoe

Don't flatter yourself. I've had spirited discussions with plenty of Colts fans who were a lot better at this than you are and who were capable of, you know, actually presenting facts, and not just subjective observations.

So how does it feel to come to a Colts board to feel better about yourself, but leave feeling worse?

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So how does it feel to come to a Colts board to feel better about yourself, but leave feeling worse?

I wouldn't know, but thank you for your unnecessary concern.

Enjoy your inevitable ban if you keep this kind of trash going.

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Guest BlueShoe

I wouldn't know, but thank you for your unnecessary concern.

Enjoy your inevitable ban if you keep this kind of trash going.

I am not the one talking trash. You are your buddies are and that's why none of my posts have been deleted. I haven't said anything out of line to any of you, yet you have all stepped over the line a few times. We will see who gets banned and I promise you it won't be me.

I am still waiting for the bright Pats fans to answer todays trivia questions.

How many sacks did we give up the year before Peyton got here? Now check how many we gave up in his rookie season.

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I am not the one talking trash. You are your buddies are and that's why none of my posts have been deleted. I haven't said anything out of line to any of you, yet you have all stepped over the line a few times. We will see who gets banned and I promise you it won't be me.

Here you go again, just like yesterday, saying we are getting our posts deleted. Where has anyone gotten their posts deleted? Nobody has stepped over the line...if anything youve been balancing on it. Im honestly baffled at your responses over the last two days...and how you somehow believe you're under attack by the big bad Patriots fans. Its absolutely mind boggling what youve convinced yourself of. You are one of the most frustrating people Ive ever interacted with on this board...and that is very very VERY telling. Both myself and GoPats tried to civil, but we've both realized that its not even worth trying to have a discussion with and quite frankly, theres a reason not a single Colts fan came to your defense from the apparent 'assault' by the Pats fans...its because you're an embarrassment to the fanbase. For every step that Patriots fans and Colts fans take to respect and admire each others teams...you try your hardest to take 5 steps back...and thats too bad.

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In particular, note:

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We ask for and expect mutual respect. Personal shots may result in suspension or termination of your membership.

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Here you go again, just like yesterday, saying we are getting our posts deleted. Where has anyone gotten their posts deleted? Nobody has stepped over the line...if anything youve been balancing on it. Im honestly baffled at your responses over the last two days...and how you somehow believe you're under attack by the big bad Patriots fans. Its absolutely mind boggling what youve convinced yourself of. You are one of the most frustrating people Ive ever interacted with on this board...and that is very very VERY telling. Both myself and GoPats tried to civil, but we've both realized that its not even worth trying to have a discussion with you...because you just cover your ears and stomp your feet like a child, and quite frankly, theres a reason not a single Colts fan came to your defense from the apparent 'assault' by the Pats fans...its because you're an embarrassment to the fanbase. For every step that Patriots fans and Colts fans take to respect and admire each others teams...you try your hardest to take 5 steps back...and thats too bad.

I am still asking you to answer a simple question about the sacks we (the Colts) took in Peyton's rookie year compared to the season before he got here. But this is the type of response you and the others keep giving me. I don't see how I am attacking you in any way by asking a simple question. I understand that it is a question that doesn't serve your point of view to answer so we end up back here again.

If you want to ignore me then please do because it has been impossible to have a conversation with you anyway.

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I am still asking you to answer a simple question about the sacks we (the Colts) took in Peyton's rookie year compared to the season before he got here. But this is the type of response you and the others keep giving me. I don't see how I am attacking you in any way by asking a simple question. I understand that it is a question that doesn't serve your point of view to answer so we end up back here again.

If you want to ignore me then please do because it has been impossible to have a conversation with you anyway.

I have no problem having a discussion about numbers, even when they dont help out my argument...but im not looking up the stats that YOU need to make your point. Thats YOUR job...and as such I assume you know the numbers since youve been harping on them all day, and I assume it will show that the Colts were sacked half as many times in 1998 than they were in 1997. Sweet.

That proves how bad the Colts O-line has been the last 7 years? Im sure if we really looked at all the numbers, we could probably find a year where the Colts were sacked more with Manning than they were in some year before he took over. But that doesnt prove anything either. You know why? Because its circumstancial evidence, based on so many other factors, that it doesnt quite make it the open and shut case you think it is.

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Guest BlueShoe

I have no problem having a discussion about numbers, even when they dont help out my argument...but im not looking up the stats that YOU need to make your point. Thats YOUR job...and as such I assume you know the numbers since youve been harping on them all day, and I assume it will show that the Colts were sacked half as many times in 1998 than they were in 1997. Sweet.

That proves how bad the Colts O-line has been the last 7 years? Im sure if we really looked at all the numbers, we could probably find a year where the Colts were sacked more with Manning than they were in some year before he took over. But that doesnt prove anything either. You know why? Because its circumstancial evidence, based on so many other factors, that it doesnt quite make it the open and shut case you think it is.

So you are really going to try disregard these facts as "circumstantial evidence"?

If that's the case then who can have a conversation with you?

Now you see why I haven't been able to take you serious on anything else.

We Colts fan not only know the numbers but we see them as more than just numbers because we watch every single play and understand what's going on. Just as you watch every Pats play and we don't. You will obviously know more about what is going on with your team than we do. So why not give us the same respect?

Peyton is the reason why we only give up 10-20 sacks a year. He is the reason why our O-Line looks like the best pass protecting line in the NFL. We don’t say this because we are homers. We say it because we know the truth and obviously it was getting to be such a serious problem that the Colts front office decided to draft back to back tackles in the first and second round of this draft.

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So you are really going to try disregard these facts as "circumstantial evidence"?

If that's the case then who can have a conversation with you?

Now you see why I haven't been able to take you serious on anything else.

We Colts fan not only know the numbers but we see them as more than just numbers because we watch every single play and understand what's going on. Just as you watch every Pats play and we don't. You will obviously know more about what is going on with your team than we do. So why not give us the same respect?

Peyton is the reason why we only give up 10-20 sacks a year. He is the reason why our O-Line looks like the best pass protecting line in the NFL. We don’t say this because we are homers. We say it because we know the truth and obviously it was getting to be such a serious problem that the Colts front office decided to draft back to back tackles in the first and second round of this draft.

My stats were not total sacks as in NFL.com but rather FO.

Where Sack Rate represents sacks divided by pass plays, which include passes, sacks, and aborted snaps. It is a better measure of pass blocking than total sacks because it takes into account how often an offense passes the ball. Adjusted Sack Rate adds adjustments for opponent quality, as well as down and distance (sacks are more common on third down, especially third-and-long).

The run blocking the last two years was bad whereas before it ranked very high as posted.

Assuming you know lack of run produces a different passing game.

I've watched plenty of their games over the years.

Last season there were definitely times the olined was manhandled on passing plays but it was still in the minority. They pass blocked well more often than not. Its just that footabll is a cause and effect and there were many reasons for failure that was not the oline...not to mention one being the injuries to WRs.

Bottom line is no QB can complete passes without a decent oline blocking..no matter how super human you may think there are.

You also got tackeles this year to ahem, run the ball.

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Guest BlueShoe

My stats were not total sacks as in NFL.com but rather FO.

Where Sack Rate represents sacks divided by pass plays, which include passes, sacks, and aborted snaps. It is a better measure of pass blocking than total sacks because it takes into account how often an offense passes the ball. Adjusted Sack Rate adds adjustments for opponent quality, as well as down and distance (sacks are more common on third down, especially third-and-long).

The run blocking the last two years was bad whereas before it ranked very high as posted.

Assuming you know lack of run produces a different passing game.

I've watched plenty of their games over the years.

Last season there were definitely times the olined was manhandled on passing plays but it was still in the minority. They pass blocked well more often than not. Its just that footabll is a cause and effect and there were many reasons for failure that was not the oline...not to mention one being the injuries to WRs.

Bottom line is no QB can complete passes without a decent oline blocking..no matter how super human you may think there are.

You also got tackeles this year to ahem, run the ball.

We haven't been able to run block or pass block well for a few years now. Anyone who has watched a Colts game would clearly see that.

Patriots fans asked for facts and I gave the facts to you guys. Our offensive issues all started with our O-Line play as we could not develop anything deep down the field. This made us very predictable and made us play within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage most of the year.

I have watched every game since 1984 and can say with the knowledge that a 27 year veteran has that our O-Line was not good. We didn’t just get tackles so we can run the ball either. We got them because we needed more talent on the O-Line period to pass block and run block. We haven’t spent these high of picks on our O-Line since we drafted Tarik Glenn and Adam Meadows back before Peyton even got here.

Fact is that Peyton saves this team several sacks each year and the O-Line has got more credit than it has deserved for a long time now.

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So you are really going to try disregard these facts as "circumstantial evidence"?

If that's the case then who can have a conversation with you?

Now you see why I haven't been able to take you serious on anything else.

We Colts fan not only know the numbers but we see them as more than just numbers because we watch every single play and understand what's going on. Just as you watch every Pats play and we don't. You will obviously know more about what is going on with your team than we do. So why not give us the same respect?

Peyton is the reason why we only give up 10-20 sacks a year. He is the reason why our O-Line looks like the best pass protecting line in the NFL. We don’t say this because we are homers. We say it because we know the truth and obviously it was getting to be such a serious problem that the Colts front office decided to draft back to back tackles in the first and second round of this draft.

I have seen every Colts game for the past five years or so, thanks to NFL Ticket through DirecTV.

Colt fans embellish the problems on the Colts O-line; it hasn't been great, particularly for run blocking, where it's been weak, but it's been average or slightly above average for pass protection.

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Guest BlueShoe

I have seen every Colts game for the past five years or so, thanks to NFL Ticket through DirecTV.

Colt fans embellish the problems on the Colts O-line; it hasn't been great, particularly for run blocking, where it's been weak, but it's been average or slightly above average for pass protection.

We are not embellishing anything. Maybe you are looking at the games with a different eye simply because you don't want to acknowledge what Peyton does for this team.

If the Patriots couldn’t run the ball or pass protect very well yet Brady still led the league (or close to it) in yards and TD’s then maybe you would see things a lot different.

But your agenda is simple and clear. You think your QB is better than ours and will disregard what’s in front of you (no matter how clear it is) so that Brady looks like the better guy to you.

As a Colts fan, I don’t want to have to admit how bad our O-Line has been, but it is the truth. I really like where our O-Line is going right now. I think Peyton could have his best TD to INT numbers over the next few years. He may not pass for 4700 yards as that number could drop to around 4000 a year and in the process his yards per pass should go up as well, but it will be worth it because our running numbers should go up tremendously.

One thing is for sure, we have found our future left tackle and he is going to be a great one for many years to come. Castonzo could turn out to be our best first round pick in a very long time. He is a game changer. Now if we can get Ijalana ready we will have something great to build on.

Now all of that being said, I am going to be very disappointed in our front office if we just give up on continuing to upgrade the O-Line in next year’s draft. If there is a guard or center who is worthy of a first round pick then we need to give them a lot of serious consideration as we will lose Saturday soon and Diem might be getting close to retiring. We need to at least address one of those positions (C or RG) in the first or second round of next year’s draft, if it is possible.

Now we will also have a need for receiver and corner so it will be something to balance. That being said, good receivers are being found in the second and third rounds of late while immediate impact corners and interior linemen have been a little tougher to find unless you get them early. I was really high on McCourty a few years ago and he did not disappoint with his rookie year. The Lions game he was burnt several times though and hopefully for Pats fans that is just a bad game. Everyone has a bad game from to time. As a Colts fan, I only want him to have bad games against us. ;)

Castonzo (LT), Reitz (LG), and Ijalana (RT) should be mainstays for quite some time and that is something really special to build on. I hope we can talk Diem into staying for one more season next year because he is a pretty good RG and by keeping him around another year it will help us develop what we need for the future.

Before this year, our offensive line was filled with mostly late round picks and UDFA’s. I am very happy with how Chris Polian has decided to go after highly valued OL in the draft, because no matter how great a QB is, games are really won up front in the trenches. A great QB can only look so great if he doesn’t have the time to set plays ups and a balanced running game to keep the defenses honest.

Our play action has not worked in years for us because teams haven’t respected our running game and that just allowed them to tee off on Peyton even more. In fact, most of our good runs have come from Peyton fooling the defenses into thinking we were passing. Over the past few years we just couldn’t go line up and say here we come, because doing so would be a loss of yards on the play as we were just outmanned up front.

Now why would any Colts fan who is trying to be a homer say this about his own team? It’s because it is true and I don’t sugar coat anything. Peyton is just that good and I know that is very hard for a Pats fan to understand, but it is the reality of the situation.

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We are not embellishing anything. Maybe you are looking at the games with a different eye simply because you don't want to acknowledge what Peyton does for this team.

If the Patriots couldn’t run the ball or pass protect very well yet Brady still led the league (or close to it) in yards and TD’s then maybe you would see things a lot different.

But your agenda is simple and clear. You think your QB is better than ours and will disregard what’s in front of you (no matter how clear it is) so that Brady looks like the better guy to you.

As a Colts fan, I don’t want to have to admit how bad our O-Line has been, but it is the truth. I really like where our O-Line is going right now. I think Peyton could have his best TD to INT numbers over the next few years. He may not pass for 4700 yards as that number could drop to around 4000 a year and in the process his yards per pass should go up as well, but it will be worth it because our running numbers should go up tremendously.

One thing is for sure, we have found our future left tackle and he is going to be a great one for many years to come. Castonzo could turn out to be our best first round pick in a very long time. He is a game changer. Now if we can get Ijalana ready we will have something great to build on.

Now all of that being said, I am going to be very disappointed in our front office if we just give up on continuing to upgrade the O-Line in next year’s draft. If there is a guard or center who is worthy of a first round pick then we need to give them a lot of serious consideration as we will lose Saturday soon and Diem might be getting close to retiring. We need to at least address one of those positions (C or RG) in the first or second round of next year’s draft, if it is possible.

Now we will also have a need for receiver and corner so it will be something to balance. That being said, good receivers are being found in the second and third rounds of late while corners and interior linemen have been a little tougher. I was really high on McCourty a few years ago and he did not disappoint with his rookie year. The Lions game he was burnt several times though and hopefully for Pats fans that is just a bad game. Everyone has a bad game from to time. As a Colts fan, I only want him to have bad games against us. ;)

Castonzo (LT), Reitz (LG), and Ijalana (RT) should be mainstays for quite some time and that is something really special to build on. I hope we can talk Diem into staying for one more season next year because he is a pretty good RG and by keeping him around another year it will help us develop what we need for the future.

Before this year, our offensive line was filled with mostly late round picks and UDFA’s. I am very happy with how Chris Polian has decided to go after highly valued OL in the draft, because no matter how great a QB is, games are really won up front in the trenches. A great QB can only look so great if he doesn’t have the time to set plays ups and a balanced running game to keep the defenses honest.

Our play action has not worked in years for us because teams haven’t respected our running game and that just allowed them to tee off on Peyton even more. In fact, most of our good runs have come from Peyton fooling the defenses into thinking we were passing. Over the past few years we just couldn’t go line up and say here we come, because doing so would be a loss of yards on the play as we were just outmanned up front.

Now why would any Colts fan who is trying to be a homer say this about his own team? It’s because it is true and I don’t sugar coat anything. Peyton is just that good and I know that is very hard for a Pats fan to understand, but it is the reality of the situation.

I dont understand why you dont realize that Patriots fans DO know how good Peyton is and we DO know what he brings to the team. We would still take our guy over yours, but theres no debate over what Peyton brings to the table. The Patriots fans here are very objective when it comes to the quarterback debate...I think its you who refuses to acknowledge anything good about anyone else. But we arent even talking about Brady...in fact youre the only one who keeps bringing him trying to tell us that we cant 'admit' Peyton is good. As I said a few days ago, its easy to be objective about your own team...that includes good and bad comments about them. But its your inability to be objective about other teams that causes you to lose credibility. I just dont understand what 'agenda' you think we have here. I honestly think you're just trying to convince yourself that we have some hidden motive by posting here, because you are so scarred by the board you posted on 8 years ago, that you think (without any evidence to prove it) that we are here to destroy this place and its the job of Captain BlueShoe to defend against all evil and save the world.

Thats not the case. Nobody has given you any reason to believe we're hear for anything else but to talk football. You've managed to convince yourself otherwise, but thats on you.

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Guest BlueShoe

I dont understand why you dont realize that Patriots fans DO know how good Peyton is and we DO know what he brings to the team. We would still take our guy over yours, but theres no debate over what Peyton brings to the table. The Patriots fans here are very objective when it comes to the quarterback debate...I think its you who refuses to acknowledge anything good about anyone else. But we arent even talking about Brady...in fact youre the only one who keeps bringing him trying to tell us that we cant 'admit' Peyton is good. As I said a few days ago, its easy to be objective about your own team...that includes good and bad comments about them. But its your inability to be objective about other teams that causes you to lose credibility. I just dont understand what 'agenda' you think we have here. I honestly think you're just trying to convince yourself that we have some hidden motive by posting here, because you are so scarred by the board you posted on 8 years ago, that you think (without any evidence to prove it) that we are here to destroy this place and its the job of Captain BlueShoe to defend against all evil and save the world.

Thats not the case. Nobody has given you any reason to believe we're hear for anything else but to talk football. You've managed to convince yourself otherwise, but thats on you.

How can anyone have a conversation with you? Just ignore me because you're not going to stop and I will not back down either. You come to a Colts board talking trash so this is how things are going to be. I just wrote a post that could have easily put us back on the right track to having good communication and you couldn't do it. So what's the point?

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I have seen every Colts game for the past five years or so, thanks to NFL Ticket through DirecTV.

Colt fans embellish the problems on the Colts O-line; it hasn't been great, particularly for run blocking, where it's been weak, but it's been average or slightly above average for pass protection.

This. Accurate.

The Colts have not had a top-10 offensive line, IMO, for the past few seasons.

But that's a far cry from "worst in the league," which is the statement that has created this entire cluster-you-know-what of a "conversation." I would say, without checking stats or looking anything up, that the Colts' line has been middle-of-the-road, somewhere in the teens, when you rank it in an objective manner.

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How can anyone have a conversation with you? Just ignore me because you're not going to stop and I will not back down either. You come to a Colts board talking trash so this is how things are going to be. I just wrote a post that could have easily put us back on the right track to having good communication and you couldn't do it. So what's the point?

I need to ask you a question. And please be truthful.

Do you honestly, honestly, believe that Patriots fans dont know how good Peyton is and what he brings to your team?

Because you seem to be stuck on this idea that we refuse to acknowledge Peyton as one of the best of all time, and I havent seen any post by Patriots fans here that support that claim, but you seem convinced of it. If you take this as me talking trash then I apologize, but I dont think we've attacked you in any way...Im just trying to understand where this blind hatred comes from and why you cant seem to move on from something that happened almost a decade ago. You think we have this agenda that we still need to 'prove' Brady is better than Peyton. This isnt 2004 anymore...I know you keep acting like it is, but it isnt, and the regular Pats posters have acknowledged that and really really do respect Peyton and the Colts. We have no hidden motive, your refusal to accept that is clouding your objectivity.

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Guest BlueShoe

This. Accurate.

The Colts have not had a top-10 offensive line, IMO, for the past few seasons.

But that's a far cry from "worst in the league," which is the statement that has created this entire cluster-you-know-what of a "conversation." I would say, without checking stats or looking anything up, that the Colts' line has been middle-of-the-road, somewhere in the teens, when you rank it in an objective manner.

We are close to the bottom in rushing every year and we had 2 first round backs, plus a veteran who almost won the Super Bowl MVP for us. So we can scratch our backs from being the issue out of the equation. Our offensive line couldn't block long enough for us to develop anything deep down field. Those are the only facts we need to know to see just how bad our line has been over the past few years.

I am repeating myself to you guys over and over but you aren't listening and then you want to complain when I tell you that I don't care. You just don't listen at all.

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But your agenda is simple and clear. You think your QB is better than ours and will disregard what’s in front of you (no matter how clear it is) so that Brady looks like the better guy to you.

I'm going to hate myself for even responding to this, but... Good Lord man, where are you getting that???

NOT ONE OF US has even brought Brady's name up in this thread. You keep doing that, not us.

FTR...

I can't speak for all Pats fans, but I've been around Dynasty and JJ enough to know that they agree with me when I say that Manning is absolutely, without a doubt, one of the all-time greats at the position. He'll take his deserved place in Canton as soon as he's eligible for the Hall. I've grown to respect him and as a football fan in general I enjoy watching him play, and when the Patriots do lose to the Colts, it doesn't bug me like it used to because there's no shame in losing to one of the best. Belichick wouldn't have gone for the 1st down on the infamous 4th-and-2 play if it was any other team. And Brady himself recently said in his opinion, Manning is the best of all time. (Whether he was just tossing a verbal bouquet at Peyton's feet is up to debate, but either way, those were his own words.) Any fan of any team knows that you can't peg any active player as "the best ever" at his position... that's like getting halfway through a book and calling it the best you've ever read. You don't know how it ends yet, so it's premature to make any sort of statement along those lines.

So I don't know where you're getting this paranoia from... all any of us said is that the Colts' line, while not up to par for what you guys are used to, is not the WORST in the league. That distinction belongs to the bottom-dwelling teams of the league.

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Guest BlueShoe

I need to ask you a question. And please be truthful.

Do you honestly, honestly, believe that Patriots fans dont know how good Peyton is and what he brings to your team?

Because you seem to be stuck on this idea that we refuse to acknowledge Peyton as one of the best of all time, and I havent seen any post by Patriots fans here that support that claim, but you seem convinced of it. If you take this as me talking trash then I apologize, but I dont think we've attacked you in any way...Im just trying to understand where this blind hatred comes from and why you cant seem to move on from something that happened almost a decade ago. You think we have this agenda that we still need to 'prove' Brady is better than Peyton. This isnt 2004 anymore...I know you keep acting like it is, but it isnt, and the regular Pats posters have acknowledged that and really really do respect Peyton and the Colts. We have no hidden motive, your refusal to accept that is clouding your objectivity.

I know you're trying to bait me here and if I tell you what I feel then you're just going to report me. It's how I have seen Pats fans work for 10 years and you guys aren't any different. You want me to say something so that you can report me for being a bad sport.

You know how I feel about Pats fans. I have made no secret about that. I also have said several times that I don’t make or enforce the rules around here. I don’t decide who gets to go and who gets to stay.

I think Pats fans (overall) hate Peyton Manning and hopes he fails every time they see him play. They hate the attention that he gets and it is some kind of envious thing that I do understand because I once felt that way about Marino, Elway, and Montana when I was younger. I was a kid then. I do not feel that way about Brady. I think he is a good quarterback, but is very fortunate of his environment. Peyton on the other hand, has been forced to make his environment a winning one. There lies the reason I think we have so many Patriots fan on this board and other Colts boards over the years. They want Brady to be seen as the greatest, when there is no doubt who the greatest quarterback to ever play this game is and that is Peyton Manning.

Let’s be serious here. You and the other Pats fans are here trying to defend the Colts offensive line just so you don’t have to admit just how great Peyton really is.

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We are close to the bottom in rushing every year and we had 2 first round backs, plus a veteran who almost won the Super Bowl MVP for us. So we can scratch our backs from being the issue out of the equation. Our offensive line couldn't block long enough for us to develop anything deep down field. Those are the only facts we need to know to see just how bad our line has been over the past few years.

I am repeating myself to you guys over and over but you aren't listening and then you want to complain when I tell you that I don't care. You just don't listen at all.

Joe Addai and Donald Brown are not "elite" backs. They're solid, but they're not great. They're not game-changers.

You have yet to provide any facts that support your claim that the Colts' have had the "worst" o-line in the game for the past few years. Are they great? No. They're fair. And there are at least 10 teams in much worse shape than Indy when it comes to the big boys up front.

Manning's decision-making and ability to make pre-snap reads, in addition to (but more so than) his quick release, is why he isn't sacked more often. None of us have disputed that. Your QB is an all-time great... we're not debating that point. We've pretty much all acknowledged it.

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I'm going to hate myself for even responding to this, but... Good Lord man, where are you getting that???

NOT ONE OF US has even brought Brady's name up in this thread. You keep doing that, not us.

FTR...

I can't speak for all Pats fans, but I've been around Dynasty and JJ enough to know that they agree with me when I say that Manning is absolutely, without a doubt, one of the all-time greats at the position. He'll take his deserved place in Canton as soon as he's eligible for the Hall. I've grown to respect him and as a football fan in general I enjoy watching him play, and when the Patriots do lose to the Colts, it doesn't bug me like it used to because there's no shame in losing to one of the best. Belichick wouldn't have gone for the 1st down on the infamous 4th-and-2 play if it was any other team. And Brady himself recently said in his opinion, Manning is the best of all time. (Whether he was just tossing a verbal bouquet at Peyton's feet is up to debate, but either way, those were his own words.) Any fan of any team knows that you can't peg any active player as "the best ever" at his position... that's like getting halfway through a book and calling it the best you've ever read. You don't know how it ends yet, so it's premature to make any sort of statement along those lines.

So I don't know where you're getting this paranoia from... all any of us said is that the Colts' line, while not up to par for what you guys are used to, is not the WORST in the league. That distinction belongs to the bottom-dwelling teams of the league.

Exactly right. Peyton and Brady themselves have the gretest of mutual respect, why cant we as fans do the same? There's no shame in admitting that an opponent might just be pretty good too, that admission in no way undermines your own team or makes any claim about ranking...its just mutual admiration and the general understanding that neither of our fanbases will ever witness an era of greatness like the one we are currently enjoying. That should be enough, theres no reason to keep this juvenile 'hatred' going...the rivalry itself isnt even as intense as it used to be, theres no reason the two fanbases have to act like it is.

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I'm going to hate myself for even responding to this, but... Good Lord man, where are you getting that???

NOT ONE OF US has even brought Brady's name up in this thread. You keep doing that, not us.

Then why do you keep defending the Colts offensive line over the past few years. You would be hard pressed to find many Colts fans who will defend our o-Line, yet you're here doing it with every ounce of energy you have. There is a reason for that.

Nice to see that you purged one little piece of an entire solid post that was made to get this conversation back on track, and instead of taking the route to better things you used it to keep talking trash.

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I think Pats fans (overall) hate Peyton Manning Tom Brady and hopes he fails every time they I see him play. They I hate the attention that he gets because and it is some kind of envious thing that I do understand because I once felt that way about Marino, Elway, and Montana when I was younger. I was a kid then. I do not feel that way about Brady.

Here, I fixed your post for you.

So enlightening that you posted this. It sort of all makes sense now. I thought most Indy fans had gotten past this point, but I guess there are still some of you who have issues with the accolades Brady receives. Thank you for finally being honest!

This thread just mercifully ended.

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Then why do you keep defending the Colts offensive line over the past few years. You would be hard pressed to find many Colts fans who will defend our o-Line, yet you're here doing it with every ounce of energy you have. There is a reason for that.

Nice to see that you purged one little piece of an entire solid post that was made to get this conversation back on track, and instead of taking the route to better things you used it to keep talking trash.

Jeebus.

I don't know man... you aren't reading stuff here or you're just so full of hatred and bitterness that you won't listen. Go back and read what I've posted this morning. I've debated your claim that the Colts have the WORST offensive line in the league, out of the 32 teams. If you didn't mean that literally, you should have said so. If you did, you're wrong, and any objective fan of any team knows that.

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Joe Addai and Donald Brown are not "elite" backs. They're solid, but they're not great. They're not game-changers.

You have yet to provide any facts that support your claim that the Colts' have had the "worst" o-line in the game for the past few years. Are they great? No. They're fair. And there are at least 10 teams in much worse shape than Indy when it comes to the big boys up front.

Manning's decision-making and ability to make pre-snap reads, in addition to (but more so than) his quick release, is why he isn't sacked more often. None of us have disputed that. Your QB is an all-time great... we're not debating that point. We've pretty much all acknowledged it.

How can you call our line "fair" when backs are rushing for more yards than our entire team is. Is that enough facts for you?

Our line has been terrible and the only reason you won't accept that is because it would make Peyton look better than you're willing to let yourself to believe he is.

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I know you're trying to bait me here and if I tell you what I feel then you're just going to report me. It's how I have seen Pats fans work for 10 years and you guys aren't any different. You want me to say something so that you can report me for being a bad sport.

You know how I feel about Pats fans. I have made no secret about that. I also have said several times that I don’t make or enforce the rules around here. I don’t decide who gets to go and who gets to stay.

I think Pats fans (overall) hate Peyton Manning and hopes he fails every time they see him play. They hate the attention that he gets because and it is some kind of envious thing that I do understand because I once felt that way about Marino, Elway, and Montana when I was younger. I was a kid then. I do not feel that way about Brady. I think he is a good quarterback, but is very fortunate of his environment. Peyton on the other hand, has been forced to make his environment a winning one. There lies the reason I think we have so many Patriots fan on this board and other Colts boards over the years. They want Brady to be seen as the greatest, when there is no doubt who the greatest quarterback to ever play this game is and that is Peyton Manning.

Let’s be serious here. You and the other Pats fans are here trying to defend the Colts offensive line just so you don’t have to admit just how great Peyton really is.

You couldnt be more wrong...and Im sorry that you feel the way you do. Im not trying to 'bait' you into anything just so I can report you. Thats that whole 'hidden motive' thing that you're stuck on.

What I got from your post is that it isnt Patriots fans that hope Peyton fails every time because we hate the attention hes getting...its YOU who wants Brady to fail every time because you hate the attention HES getting. Im not saying its a jealousy thing because Colts fans have Peyton and theres nothing to be jealous of because as we said, hes one of the all time greats. But when you say Brady is only a good quarterback who is fortunate of his environment, that shows that you dont quite understand why people consider him one of the all time greats as well, and that is a clear indication that YOU are the one who doesnt 'get it'.

Brady didnt step into a winning environment. In fact, Peyton and Brady are very similar in terms of the way they turned their franchises around. Peyton didnt do it himself, Brady didnt do it himself. We honestly have no desire to undermine Peyton in some wacky attempt to avoid having to admit how great he is. Until you accept that, youll never understand...and thats too bad, because you're wasting way to much time worrying about it instead of just watching both these guys play and enjoying what theyve both brought to this league over the last decade.

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Exactly right. Peyton and Brady themselves have the gretest of mutual respect, why cant we as fans do the same? There's no shame in admitting that an opponent might just be pretty good too, that admission in no way undermines your own team or makes any claim about ranking...its just mutual admiration and the general understanding that neither of our fanbases will ever witness an era of greatness like the one we are currently enjoying. That should be enough, theres no reason to keep this juvenile 'hatred' going...the rivalry itself isnt even as intense as it used to be, theres no reason the two fanbases have to act like it is.

How am I the one keeping the hatred going here? You hate Peyton so much that you are actually defending our O-Line the past few years. That's as bad as it gets.

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Jeebus.

I don't know man... you aren't reading stuff here or you're just so full of hatred and bitterness that you won't listen. Go back and read what I've posted this morning. I've debated your claim that the Colts have the WORST offensive line in the league, out of the 32 teams. If you didn't mean that literally, you should have said so. If you did, you're wrong, and any objective fan of any team knows that.

How am I the one full of hate when you are going so far as to defend our O-Line? That is what hate is and you are trying to project that onto me. The facts are the facts. There have been several NFL backs to rush for more yards than our entire team has. And it's not like we just don't try to run the ball because we try and the past few years have failed miserably.

Check exactly where the hate is coming from.

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How am I the one full of hate when you are going so far as to defend our O-Line? That is what hate is and you are trying to project that onto me. The facts are the facts. There have been several NFL backs to rush for more yards than our entire team has. And it's not like we just don't try to run the ball because we try and the past few years have failed miserably.

Check exactly where the hate is coming from.

Defending an O-line against a claim that they are the worst in the leage is 'what hate is' ? ? ?

Comeon, man...this is getting silly. How can you possibly read any of our posts this morning and try to say thats where the hate is coming from. I cant even take you seriously anymore...you're acting delusional...and that isnt a personal attack, its just an honest opinion of your refusal to give an inch in this conversation.

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You couldnt be more wrong...and Im sorry that you feel the way you do. Im not trying to 'bait' you into anything just so I can report you. Thats that whole 'hidden motive' thing that you're stuck on.

What I got from your post is that it isnt Patriots fans that hope Peyton fails every time because we hate the attention hes getting...its YOU who wants Brady to fail every time because you hate the attention HES getting. Im not saying its a jealousy thing because Colts fans have Peyton and theres nothing to be jealous of because as we said, hes one of the all time greats. But when you say Brady is only a good quarterback who is fortunate of his environment, that shows that you dont quite understand why people consider him one of the all time greats as well, and that is a clear indication that YOU are the one who doesnt 'get it'.

Brady didnt step into a winning environment. In fact, Peyton and Brady are very similar in terms of the way they turned their franchises around. Peyton didnt do it himself, Brady didnt do it himself. We honestly have no desire to undermine Peyton in some wacky attempt to avoid having to admit how great he is. Until you accept that, youll never understand...and thats too bad, because you're wasting way to much time worrying about it instead of just watching both these guys play and enjoying what theyve both brought to this league over the last decade.

I don't mind any attention that Brady gets. He is a great story for the NFL. He is living the dream that every college QB out there right now can aspire to.

Brady is a really good quarterback and I am not saying that to gain points with Pats fans here. I think if he were on a bad team then he would struggle. Peyton was on a bad team for a few years and took his team into the playoffs every year anyway.

It’s not a knock on Brady at all that I say that.

What should it matter to Pats fans anyway? The Pats have 3 rings because their team has been good for so long.

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How can you call our line "fair" when backs are rushing for more yards than our entire team is. Is that enough facts for you?

Our line has been terrible and the only reason you won't accept that is because it would make Peyton look better than you're willing to let yourself to believe he is.

Your line is built to pass block, not to run block. The Colts are not a strong running team, and haven't been since Edgerrin James left. That's what happens when you have a QB like Manning. It's built around him, as it should be.

How am I the one full of hate when you are going so far as to defend our O-Line? That is what hate is and you are trying to project that onto me. The facts are the facts. There have been several NFL backs to rush for more yards than our entire team has. And it's not like we just don't try to run the ball because we try and the past few years have failed miserably.

Check exactly where the hate is coming from.

How, please do tell, does my assertion that you don't have the "worst" (as in, dead last) line in the league translate to me being full of hate? Did you even READ the post a few up where I praised Manning? Or are you replying before you read? Seriously, this was kind of amusing at first, but now I just don't get it. I've done nothing but give Manning his props and you're still on the attack.

You're entirely responsible for any bad blood in this thread. You and you alone. You've been hyper-aggressive, unwilling to be civil, and have openly stated that you hate Patriots fans regardless of who they are or what they're about.

If you were truly being "attacked" the way you seem to feel you are, then why wouldn't other Indy fans jump in to defend you? Do you want me to answer that for you?

Actually, scratch that offer. I'm done with this one. This is a total waste of time.

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Defending an O-line against a claim that they are the worst in the leage is 'what hate is' ? ? ?

Comeon, man...this is getting silly. How can you possibly read any of our posts this morning and try to say thats where the hate is coming from. I cant even take you seriously anymore...you're acting delusional...and that isnt a personal attack, its just an honest opinion of your refusal to give an inch in this conversation.

In my opinion the Colts O-Line was the worst line in the league last year. If we put all the facts together then might see they were anywhere from 29th to 32nd. We couldn't have done worse with any other line in the league, right?

I just can’t imagine any other team having as bad of a line that we had. I watched every team play at least one game last season and they didn’t have the same issues that we did.

Arian Foster ran for 1,616 yards last year. The entire Colts team ran for 1,483.

To put this in perspective, the Chiefs ran for 2,627 last year almost doubling our output. In fact, 8 teams broke the 2000 yard mark in rushing last season and your Pats were only a few yards shy of 2000 which would have made it 9 teams.

Only four teams ran the ball for less than 1500 yards last year and the Colts were one of them. Among those four teams the Colts had the second worst yards per carry at 3.8. Only the Seahawks were worse with an average carry of 3.7.

The Texans broke 2,000 yards and as a team they only rushed 30 times more all season than we did as a team.

We were worse than bad at running the ball and Peyton made us look better than we were at pass protection.

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