93's replacement

[BOTT]

I doubt Jordan will be there but I think Mingo has a pretty good chance, but Jordan and his 14.5 career sacks in 33 career games  are in no way shape or form superior to Okafors 23.5 sacks in 42 games, Both are impressive and watching them both I like them but while I certainly would not say Okafor is the superior guy he certainly is the better pass rusher 

I don't see any chance Mingo is there when the colts draft...especially with the eagles, browns, bills, and saints all switching to a 34 defense. Mingo may be raw, but teams will fall in love with his potential.

[Gavin]

I don't see any chance Mingo is there when the colts draft...especially with the eagles, browns, bills, and saints all switching to a 34 defense. Mingo may be raw, but teams will fall in love with his potential.

I've kinda narrowed it down to who I think would be a good bottom of the 1st round pick based on who I think will be there:

 

1.Xavier Rhodes

2.Alex Okafor

3.Fluker but only if he was moved to RG, Dont trust him at Tackle even if its RT which it would be

4.Johnathan Hankins

5.Barrett Jones(Some would disagree but I see no real reason for that, he is one of the top 3 best O Linemen in the country by far)

6.Jesse Williams

7.Sam Montgomery 

8.Mingo might be there depending on who falls in love with some of these potential without much production players of which Ansah is the poster boy for

 

Out of those it comes down to 4 players for me pre combine of course

 

 

1.Rhodes

2.Jones

3.Montgomery

4.Okafor(Some may not be that high on him but he is explosive off the snap and has experience standing up from both sides while have the production to warrant a bottom of the 1st round pick, He is not bad against the run either, a huge step up from Freeney in that regard)

 

in no particular order

[wig]

Okafor doesn't have these amazing stats you seem to think he does. 25% of his sacks from the past two years came in a single game when Mike Riley was too dumb to adjust. His two year sack total is marginally better than Jordan when Dion has only played D for two years and wasn't even the starter at the beginning of last year. Not to mention Dion drops into coverage a third of the time. I could make an argument that Dion he's better at everything than Okafor. He had more tackles, is much, much better in space/coverage and if you take a sack % from how many times they each rushed the passer I'm almost positive Jordan's is higher.

[Gavin]

Okafor doesn't have these amazing stats you seem to think he does. 25% of his sacks from the past two years came in a single game when Mike Riley was too dumb to adjust. His two year sack total is marginally better than Jordan when Dion has only played D for two years and wasn't even the starter at the beginning of last year. Not to mention Dion drops into coverage a third of the time. I could make an argument that Dion he's better at everything than Okafor. He had more tackles, is much, much better in space/coverage and if you take a sack % from how many times they each rushed the passer I'm almost positive Jordan's is higher.

Jordan has played only in 10 less games, and no Okafor had 50 tackles his senior year with 24 solo, Jordan had 39 with only 2(he had 26)more then Okafor being solo tackles, Both players missed 2 games, I'd like to know how your going to make the argument or why your going to to make the argument that he is better in coverage when that wont be what they are asked to do the majority of there snaps, I mean congrats to Jordan has 2 pass deflected in his career......oh wait Okafor has 4 in the last 2 years. Okafor also has a better get off on the snap 

[wig]

Jordan has played only in 10 less games, and no Okafor had 50 tackles his senior year with 24 solo, Jordan had 39 with only 2(he had 26)more then Okafor being solo tackles, Both players missed 2 games, I'd like to know how your going to make the argument or why your going to to make the argument that he is better in coverage when that wont be what they are asked to do the majority of there snaps, I mean congrats to Jordan has 2 pass deflected in his career......oh wait Okafor has 4 in the last 2 years. Okafor also has a better get off on the snap 

You don't know why I'm saying that being better in coverage is important for an OLB and you think the stat to show that is deflected passes? How does Okafor batting a ball down at the line of scrimmage say that he can cover a TE? They have similar stats and Okafor has played D his whole life, not just a couple years. DJ is faster, rangier and much, much more versatile. And every scout I've seen agrees with me, maybe we're all wrong and Okafor will be better because he piled up sacks one game.

[Gavin]

You don't know why I'm saying that being better in coverage is important for an OLB and you think the stat to show that is deflected passes? How does Okafor batting a ball down at the line of scrimmage say that he can cover a TE? They have similar stats and Okafor has played D his whole life, not just a couple years. DJ is faster, rangier and much, much more versatile. And every scout I've seen agrees with me, maybe we're all wrong and Okafor will be better because he piled up sacks one game.

 

 

Okafor can drop back and get good depth in a short zone and yes Jordan can to, but to act like Okafor got most of his sacks in 1 games is far fetched, yes he had 4 but heck he couldn't be stopped, Jordan and Okafor both have the potential to be very good or great wherever they go but for my money Im picking Okafor especially since we are talking about the pass rush role

 

[wig]

Okafor can drop back and get good depth in a short zone and yes Jordan can to, but to act like Okafor got most of his sacks in 1 games is far fetched, yes he had 4 but heck he couldn't be stopped, Jordan and Okafor both have the potential to be very good or great wherever they go but for my money Im picking Okafor especially since we are talking about the pass rush role

In the entire WVU game in that video Okafor dropped into coverage one time and the pass was completed on him. To me, they are pretty much equal when it comes to getting a pass rush but, if I'm running a 34, I want my OLBs to be able to get after the passer AND cover. Okafor hasn't shown that to me, where Jordan has, and Jordan has better speed and length to cover ground. Okafor came out of high school as a strong side DE, which I still think fits him best, whereas Jordan was recruited as a WR.

[wig]

CBS' analysis sums it up better than I can.

"Has the body of a classic RDE speed rusher but the game better suited to playing the left side as a run-defender. Lacks quick-twitch burst and isn't a speed rusher, as indicated by the fact that Texas initially lined him up at defensive tackle.

Slightly stiff upper body demonstrated by his struggles in changing directions, making him a better candidate to remain as a defensive end rather than dropping back into coverage, as he was occasionally also asked to do at Texas."

[Gavin]

CBS' analysis sums it up better than I can.

"Has the body of a classic RDE speed rusher but the game better suited to playing the left side as a run-defender. Lacks quick-twitch burst and isn't a speed rusher, as indicated by the fact that Texas initially lined him up at defensive tackle.

Slightly stiff upper body demonstrated by his struggles in changing directions, making him a better candidate to remain as a defensive end rather than dropping back into coverage, as he was occasionally also asked to do at Texas."

How often do you really think he would actually be asked to drop back into coverage in a short zone in the Freeney role? Suggs wasn't very often, neither was Freeney himself, its really not that big of an issue, Mathis/Hughes would be the DE/OLB's asked to do that just like they were last year and Okafor is solid against the run and the fact that Texas initially lined him up at DT doesn't indicate he is not a speed rusher, That 11:21 second recording above demonstrates that he has both speed and power going against Kyle Long who CBS has ranked as there 6th best OT 

[Mr. Blue]

Dion Jordan is a one trick pony that relies solely on speed, he lacks pass rush moves and doesn't provide much in the run game as much as Okafor does. Okafor is the total package, stout against the run, can take on double teams, and can get to the QB in multiple ways. Okafor can play in the base 3-4 on early downs and can play with his hand in the dirt in the nickel and dime packages. I much rather have Okafor over Jordan and Ansah

I'm slowly starting to distrust Jordan more and more, because you need to a variety of skills to succeed in the NFL. But I still think Ansah would be the better option over Okafor

[Gavin]

I'm slowly starting to distrust Jordan more and more, because you need to a variety of skills to succeed in the NFL. But I still think Ansah would be the better option over Okafor

I think Jordan is the better option over Ansah but I think Okafor is the better over both

[wig]

How often do you really think he would actually be asked to drop back into coverage in a short zone in the Freeney role? Suggs wasn't very often, neither was Freeney himself, its really not that big of an issue, Mathis/Hughes would be the DE/OLB's asked to do that just like they were last year and Okafor is solid against the run and the fact that Texas initially lined him up at DT doesn't indicate he is not a speed rusher, That 11:21 second recording above demonstrates that he has both speed and power going against Kyle Long who CBS has ranked as there 6th best OT

Yeah. . . he never faced Kyle Long.

The more versatile a player is the more the coach can open up the playbook with additional blitz packages and keep the defense guessing. Freeney never dropped back because he would have been completely lost and the coaches are smart enough to not put him in that position. If they had someone who could effectively we would see more of it.

[Gavin]

Yeah. . . he never faced Kyle Long.

The more versatile a player is the more the coach can open up the playbook with additional blitz packages and keep the defense guessing. Freeney never dropped back because he would have been completely lost and the coaches are smart enough to not put him in that position. If they had someone who could effectively we would see more of it.

We already do and thats Hughes, Why is it you think Jordan can do it any better then Okafor

[wig]

We already do and thats Hughes, Why is it you think Jordan can do it any better then Okafor

Why do I think Jordan can cover more ground and in turn provide more options? Is that a serious question?

[Gavin]

Why do I think Jordan can cover more ground and in turn provide more options? Is that a serious question?

Sure is because when watching him play he looks fast and can drop into coverage in a short zone but still is raw rushing the passer, I have seen plenty of him and dont recall much in the form of pass rush moves such as a spin move, he relies alot on outside rushes beating his man with speed, Hey I wouldn't mind if we traded down into the 2nd and he was still there I'd like him there but not at the bottom of the first for us

[wig]

Sure is because when watching him play he looks fast and can drop into coverage in a short zone but still is raw rushing the passer, I have seen plenty of him and dont recall much in the form of pass rush moves such as a spin move, he relies alot on outside rushes beating his man with speed, Hey I wouldn't mind if we traded down into the 2nd and he was still there I'd like him there but not at the bottom of the first for us

Lucky for your mental well-being, he'll be gone in the top ten. And mentioning him as a second rounder makes you look really, really silly. Okafor will be there in the the second though, so there's that.

[wig]

And if you think that all he can do in coverage is play a short zone you need to watch more film on him.

[Gavin]

And if you think that all he can do in coverage is play a short zone you need to watch more film on him.

We can compare film until we are blue in the face, I'd be happy with either guy, I just prefer okafor, He has been more productive and can do the same things Jordan can do 

 

 

 

[Gavin]

Plus he has 20lbs on Jordan

[wig]

We can compare film until we are blue in the face, I'd be happy with either guy, I just prefer okafor, He has been more productive and can do the same things Jordan can do

Show me film of a single game where he drops into coverage successfully 3 times and I'll concede.

[Gavin]

Show me film of a single game where he drops into coverage successfully 3 times and I'll concede.

 

 

He does it 3 times in this game at least (2 times in a row) Do you really expect your PASS RUSHING 3-4 DE/OLB to be dropped back in coverage often? Because thats sure not what Manusky did last year, it was almost always Mathis/Hughes. For what we need I'd take Okafor but if we took Jordan if he is there I'd be alright with that to

[Mr. Blue]

I think we've seen enough evidence to compare a raw, high potential prospect with a fairly solid, lower starred player. At the end of the day, it'll come down to whoever the staff thinks is the harder worker and proven leader.

[wig]

Gavin, on 20 Feb 2013 - 01:45, said:

He does it 3 times in this game at least (2 times in a row) Do you really expect your PASS RUSHING 3-4 DE/OLB to be dropped back in coverage often? Because thats sure not what Manusky did last year, it was almost always Mathis/Hughes. For what we need I'd take Okafor but if we took Jordan if he is there I'd be alright with that to

Just got around to watching this and I beg you to tell me the three times (or twice in a row) that he dropped back. I counted two. If you want, I will show you two games that DJ dropped backed three times man to man, not just a short zone. It won'ttake long, probably the first two I watch.

[NewColtsFan]

I've kinda narrowed it down to who I think would be a good bottom of the 1st round pick based on who I think will be there:

 

1.Xavier Rhodes

2.Alex Okafor

3.Fluker but only if he was moved to RG, Dont trust him at Tackle even if its RT which it would be

4.Johnathan Hankins

5.Barrett Jones (Some would disagree but I see no real reason for that, he is one of the top 3 best O Linemen in the country by far)

 

6.Jesse Williams

7.Sam Montgomery 

8.Mingo might be there depending on who falls in love with some of these potential without much production players of which Ansah is the poster boy for

 

Out of those it comes down to 4 players for me pre combine of course

 

 

1.Rhodes

2.Jones

3.Montgomery

4.Okafor(Some may not be that high on him but he is explosive off the snap and has experience standing up from both sides while have the production to warrant a bottom of the 1st round pick, He is not bad against the run either, a huge step up from Freeney in that regard)

 

in no particular order

 

Gavin....

 

This is a bad man-crush, IMO.    Jones likely isn't even one of the top 3 OL on his own Alabama team, much less the nation 'by far'...    Warmack,  the big left tackle whose name I can't recall and Fluker are all ranked higher.    And, besides his own team, try Joekel, Fisher, Johnson,  Warmack, Cooper....   goodness, right there are 5 nationally....   and I'm not even going lower than that because your head might explode...

 

I appreciate and respect that Jones starred at 3 different positions at Alabama, but that doesn't mean he's a stud prospect for the NFL....    He's good...  perhaps even very good...   but top 3 in the nation, 'by far'....??    I don't think he's close....

 

Just my view of things....

[Gavin]

Gavin....

 

This is a bad man-crush, IMO.    Jones likely isn't even one of the top 3 OL on his own Alabama team, much less the nation 'by far'...    Warmack,  the big left tackle whose name I can't recall and Fluker are all ranked higher.    And, besides his own team, try Joekel, Fisher, Johnson,  Warmack, Cooper....   goodness, right there are 5 nationally....   and I'm not even going lower than that because your head might explode...

 

I appreciate and respect that Jones starred at 3 different positions at Alabama, but that doesn't mean he's a stud prospect for the NFL....    He's good...  perhaps even very good...   but top 3 in the nation, 'by far'....??    I don't think he's close....

 

Just my view of things....

He wasn't just very good he was a 2 time all american, His accomplishments include(along with being a 2 time all american):

Rimington trophy in 2012,

First Team all SEC in 2011 and 2012 

Jacobs Blocking Trophy

 

I think that saying that Jones isn't a top 3 O Linemen on his very own team is at best way way off and likely very dilusional in my opinion, Warmacks accomplishments himself dont even match up although he is clearly very very good being named an All American in 2012 along with SEC First Team in 2012 and SEC Second Team in 2011

 

Coopers accomplishments dont match up either although impressive and I do really like him to, He has been a 4 year starter at LG and was named 2nd team all acc in 2010 and 2011, Look I know I am just throwing awards out there and I dont expect many to take those awards into consideration solely as a means to measuring how good an O Lineman is because they shouldn't but its not possible to have as many awards as Jones does playing several different O Line positions without being one of the best IF not THE BEST at what you do, He didn't just start and  someone called him versatile because he lined up at three positions along the O Line (Like some have the habit of doing with Linkenbach, I dont consider him versatile because he clearly cant play RT, he is a Guard nothing more nothing less and obviously not a real good one)Jones was great at the positions he was put at INCLUDING LT where he was switched from Guard do to team needs which is when he won the Outland Trophy for the nations best O Lineman....Not to mention he handled Louis Nix III all game long with a LisFranc Injury

[Gavin]

Just got around to watching this and I beg you to tell me the three times (or twice in a row) that he dropped back. I counted two. If you want, I will show you two games that DJ dropped backed three times man to man, not just a short zone. It won'ttake long, probably the first two I watch.

Lets see

[wig]

Lets see

Right after this mythical film of Okafor showing he can cover.

[NewColtsFan]

He wasn't just very good he was a 2 time all american, His accomplishments include(along with being a 2 time all american):

Rimington trophy in 2012,

First Team all SEC in 2011 and 2012 

Jacobs Blocking Trophy

 

I think that saying that Jones isn't a top 3 O Linemen on his very own team is at best way way off and likely very dilusional in my opinion, Warmacks accomplishments himself dont even match up although he is clearly very very good being named an All American in 2012 along with SEC First Team in 2012 and SEC Second Team in 2011

 

Coopers accomplishments dont match up either although impressive and I do really like him to, He has been a 4 year starter at LG and was named 2nd team all acc in 2010 and 2011, Look I know I am just throwing awards out there and I dont expect many to take those awards into consideration solely as a means to measuring how good an O Lineman is because they shouldn't but its not possible to have as many awards as Jones does playing several different O Line positions without being one of the best IF not THE BEST at what you do, He didn't just start and  someone called him versatile because he lined up at three positions along the O Line (Like some have the habit of doing with Linkenbach, I dont consider him versatile because he clearly cant play RT, he is a Guard nothing more nothing less and obviously not a real good one)Jones was great at the positions he was put at INCLUDING LT where he was switched from Guard do to team needs which is when he won the Outland Trophy for the nations best O Lineman....Not to mention he handled Louis Nix III all game long with a LisFranc Injury

 

Gavin....

 

IMO, you're way too caught up with honors and awards.    I can end that pretty quickly.    Why doesn't every Heisman trophy winner go on to star in the NFL??   After all,  the Heisman winner is supposed to be the best player in college football....   so, that person should always be an NFL star.   But they're not.    And you know they're not.

 

So far Jones has proven himself as good at most everything,  but he hasn't shown he's great at anything.    His strength is also his weakness.    I'm not sayng he won't go in the first round,  it only takes one team to fall in love with him....   but the majority of teams seem to think he's more 2nd round player than 1st.    So, when you proclaim he's one of the top-3 OL in the draft 'by far' I think you put yourself out there for questioning...

 

Look...   you may end up being right.   If Jones gets taken in the first round,  you (and he) get scoreboard....   but most projections don't show him in the first round....   at least,  not yet.    That could still change,  but for now, I don't think he's there....

 

Just my view...