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Zone Read Offense. Future?


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#121 Matugi

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:14 PM

And you must be real proud that you spend your time on a football forum writing short novels. Getting out some time and breath the fresh air.

I do actually pride myself on my ability to multitask.

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#122 braveheartcolt

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:17 PM

Please stop strawmanning.

How in God's name does passer rating relate at all to skill set? I'm not talking about stats or metrics or anything: I'm talking about God's gift.

 

-  when did 'god' muscle in on NFL evaluations? Plus he's a baseball fan if I'm not mistaken. This is actually worse than the Passer Rating. FAIL.

RG3 is clearly the best athlete of all of them. That is not debatable. Both Luck and Wilson are good athletes but not on the same planet as Griffin.

 

- Griffin looks to be a little faster, but not as strong, resilient or tough. This has been proven. I'm in a fair mood, so, TIE.

RG3 also clearly has the best arm strength. Luck floats many of his sideline passes, and while Wilson has an okay arm, he tends to throw high, mainly stemming from having to compensate for his height, and this leads to weak passes.

 

- Unproven. When both have a similar time to throw in the pocket, it may become clearer. When Luch steps up into the pocket and has time, he looks pretty good to me ( see 3rd and 23 v Houston). I'll give Griffin the benefit of the doubt. TIE. 

RG3 has the best upper body mechanics. His release is the quickest and most compact, and he's excellent at adjusting arm angles. Wilson has a slow release and benefits from being able to scramble and move outside the pocket. Luck has an okay release and usually has a good arm angle but really struggles to adjust it in a crowded pocket.

 

- Crowded Pocket says it all. Something Griffin (or Wilson) rarely experienced. Unproven. TIE

It's arguable who has the best field vision because none of the quarterbacks have really shined in that department. Luck struggles to find his checkdown, Wilson does not read a defense quickly and has to buy time, and RG3 does not progres through his reads quickly enough and usually settles on the second at most. All three leave a lot to be desired here.

 

- Agree. TIE

All three also struggle with lower body mechanics. Luck's base gets really sloppy and he loses velocity on his passes. RG3 does not follow through with his hips enough and tends to throw off his back foot, leading to high passes (he compensates by having a really strong arm). Wilson gets happy feet.

 

- No idea on this one, so I'll go with your stance. TIE.

Luck clearly has the best short-to-intermediate accuracy and displays mostly good ball placement. RG3 isn't a slouch here but tends to place balls, especially slants, a little behind and a little high. Wilson is solid here as well.

 

- Agree. One to Luck.

RG3 has the best deep accuracy of the bunch. He consistently fits it into tight windows and rarely underthrows. Luck struggles with deep accuracy because he does not have the arm to consistently throw the receiver open, and so he ends up throwing a lot of A) back shoulder passes which are good in and of themselves and B) underthrow deep passes, which get picked off. Wilson does not have great deep accuracy and a lot of his throws float to the sideline. His receives consistently make great catches.

 

- I believe Luck has the better 3rd and Long. And his accuracy % for 'long' throws is higher I believe. So Luck for me.

As of right now, Luck is obviously the most football smart, but Wilson and RG3 are not far behind.

 

- Luck wins.

However, taking everything into account, RG3 has the best skill set of any of them.

 

- By my calculations, it doesn't look like Griffin is better, even by your rating criteria. It is all about opinions (which was my original point), but unless the 'god factor' is worth triple points, I am not convinced. I appreciate the answer though, I did ask. It would be interesting to see Quizboy's views, rather than him just liking everything that you said....


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#123 Balzer40

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:19 PM

And what compels you to believe that I diminish your players? I find that many people here have such a linear view of things: if you prop up Griffin, you are automatically claiming that Luck is not the greatest thing since sliced bread and therefore lose your "fan card".

I do not look to disparage any of the quarterbacks: they're all great. I conceded that Luck has some attributes where he is CLEARLY better than Griffin or Wilson, just as there are some where Griffin is better than either of the others. My suppositions do nothing to downplay Luck or Wilson, and to take offense to them, as if I am eviscerating your Chosen One, is ludicrous.

And alas, I was not the one who initially brought up the entire "who's better" argument, so once again you can spew your vitriol elsewhere.

 

 

I'm hardly spewing vitriol, you would know if I did and the mods would surely ban me for doing so. Maybe your not the one who started the who's better game, but you do always jump at any chance to tell us all how your QB is the superior athlete with superior arm strength and superior this and superior that. Never do you come to discuss football in any other thread where you can't continue your agenda for pumping up RG3's superiority. Colts fans aren't just going to bow down to him and say how right you were all along. So it just don't make sense to continue the argument.


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#124 QwizBoy

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:20 PM

Oh so in your opinion griffin is the most athletic qb to play. Congrats, didn't keep him healthy. I'll still take my unalthletic goofy no dread no fancy socks wearing Luck over him. And you must be real proud that you spend your time on a football forum writing short novels. Getting out some time and breath the fresh air.

What's wrong with dreads and fancy socks? Lol. He still won the division health aside, so I don't see how that factors into things. He and 12 both set out and did the same thing...getting their team to the playoffs. Griffin is good and will be back next season.


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#125 QwizBoy

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:22 PM

"Luck wins, Luck for me, tie, tie. Disagree, disagree..."  Tell me why I'm not surprised. :bored:


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#126 Matugi

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:22 PM

Never do you come to discuss football in any other thread where you can't continue your agenda for pumping up RG3's superiority.

I would consider my portfolio relatively diverse.

#127 QwizBoy

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:25 PM

I would consider my portfolio relatively diverse.

I do a lot of the same that you do. Whenever someone says something so offbase that makes me go, " What?" I will without a doubt hop into discussion to express my opinion. I also participate in other threads, but of course some believe that standing up for one of your own players, when they themselves do it all the time to ad nauseam, is worthy of responses like the ones we've seen in this thread. Keep doing what you do, it's good to have diversity within the message board.


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#128 NewEra

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:26 PM

What's wrong with dreads and fancy socks? Lol. He still won the division health aside, so I don't see how that factors into things. He and 12 both set out and did the same thing...getting their team to the playoffs. Griffin is good and will be back next season.

He not good, he's apparently the best ever. Fastest, strongest arm, able to leap a small building in a single bound. I bring up the dreads and fancy socks cause it's just funny. You take newton who was an athletic freak so they say. Ten you have Luck who had all the same times testing and everything but somehow Luck is not athletic. Oh yeah I forgot, white guys can't be athletic
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#129 Matugi

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:28 PM

He not good, he's apparently the best ever. Fastest, strongest arm, able to leap a small building in a single bound. I bring up the dreads and fancy socks cause it's just funny. You take newton who was an athletic freak so they say. Ten you have Luck who had all the same times testing and everything but somehow Luck is not athletic. Oh yeah I forgot, white guys can't be athletic

I'm a white guy who can jump.

Luck is still a great athlete, there's no question. The impression is simply diluted when you compare to guys who are demonstratively more athletic (Newton) or are more athletic without question (Griffin, Kaepernick). It's kinda like Big Ben: nobody thinks of him as athletic because he doesn't appear to be, but he's pretty fast and can truck someone.

#130 NewEra

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:29 PM

I do a lot of the same that you do. Whenever someone says something so offbase that makes me go, " What?" I will without a doubt hop into discussion to express my opinion. I also participate in other threads, but of course some believe that standing up for one of your own players, when they themselves do it all the time to ad nauseam, is worthy of responses like the ones we've seen in this thread. Keep doing what you do, it's good to have diversity within the message board.
.

Oh yeah without a doubt. Come into a colts forum and post non stop about how our players are less of players. Makes a lot of sense. Cause colts fans on the site won't say anything back.
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#131 NewEra

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:32 PM

I'm a white guy who can jump.

Luck is still a great athlete, there's no question. The impression is simply diluted when you compare to guys who are demonstratively more athletic (Newton) or are more athletic without question (Griffin, Kaepernick). It's kinda like Big Ben: nobody thinks of him as athletic because he doesn't appear to be, but he's pretty fast and can truck someone.

While there's a lot more to do with it than jumping.

Yes, griffin may be faster...he may even have a stronger arm. That does not make him a better qb.
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#132 QwizBoy

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:32 PM

He not good, he's apparently the best ever. Fastest, strongest arm, able to leap a small building in a single bound. I bring up the dreads and fancy socks cause it's just funny. You take newton who was an athletic freak so they say. Ten you have Luck who had all the same times testing and everything but somehow Luck is not athletic. Oh yeah I forgot, white guys can't be athletic

What is with you and this whole race thing. Race has nothing to do with this, there is no secret media agenda to prop up black QBs my friend. Nobody is claiming that he is perfect; As Matugi has posted, he has some things he does better than other QBs, and some that he doesn't. The guy is a great player and a great person, socks and dreads aside. Griffin dazzled on the field as an athlete, while, as many of you are so quick to point out, 12 did the traditional dropback passing game. Hardly a comparison, at least on the field and not at a combine, of one's athletic capabalities.


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#133 QwizBoy

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:34 PM

.

Oh yeah without a doubt. Come into a colts forum and post non stop about how our players are less of players. Makes a lot of sense. Cause colts fans on the site won't say anything back.

Oh the hypocrisy. And the irony. Combined. Hilarious.


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#134 Matugi

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:36 PM

While there's a lot more to do with it than jumping.

Yes, griffin may be faster...he may even have a stronger arm. That does not make him a better qb.

Then what's the issue? I never argued that he is the better QB; I argued that he is more talented. There are many things that go into making an exceptional quarterback, and there is no way to tell whether or not Luck, Griffin, or Wilson will be successful long term. Peyton Manning did not have the best tools and succeeded. Aaron Rodgers has all the tools and is succeeding. So why take issue with my supposition that Griffin is more talented if there's no way to tell how any of them will turn out?

#135 NewEra

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:46 PM

Then what's the issue? I never argued that he is the better QB; I argued that he is more talented. There are many things that go into making an exceptional quarterback, and there is no way to tell whether or not Luck, Griffin, or Wilson will be successful long term. Peyton Manning did not have the best tools and succeeded. Aaron Rodgers has all the tools and is succeeding. So why take issue with my supposition that Griffin is more talented if there's no way to tell how any of them will turn out?

I see no wrong. But he may be more athletic, doesn't make him more talented.
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#136 NewEra

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:49 PM

Oh the hypocrisy. And the irony. Combined. Hilarious.

Shaub, sucks. And the texans will always be bottom feeders. Now that would be more hypocrisy, irony and while hilarious. So true.
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#137 QwizBoy

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:57 PM

Shaub, sucks. And the texans will always be bottom feeders. Now that would be more hypocrisy, irony and while hilarious. So true.

Apparently you have no idea what hypocrisy, irony, or bottom feeders mean, and I can't say that I'm not surprised. haha See the sig...see the talent...and tremble thinking about the future. Texans>Colts, if you want to take this thread in that direction. Going to be closed soon anyway.


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#138 ColtsBlueFL

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:58 PM

The problem is how many times do you think a defender can consistently do this without getting in trouble? With the way the zone-read is run, out of the pistol, it's hard to tell which side the play is going to. So you're already down at least one player in the play and force the other to play a guessing game. The odds are in the offense's favor at this point. From there a DE can easily be manipulated by both the running game, as you've stated, and still the passing game via quick screens over the defender's head, where you'll have one less player in pursuit on that side of the field. The quarterback can also easily run a draw, which you've seen Kaepernick and Wilson run much more than Griffin has because of their elusiveness (compared to Griffin's straight-line speed).

Also, as penalties begin to be acrued, players will be suspended.

It's just not a good idea for a DC to tell his players to hit the quarterback regardless of what the play is.

 

There's 11 defenders. 10 blockers. and the multi-dimensional QB with the ball.  10 can't block 11, somebody has a free angle.  Assign a guy (maybe a LB) just for QB. Have backsuide DE always run at the RB. If you disguise this, the QB tries a cutback right into the LB.

 

contain_ZR_2_zps0ebdde03.png

 

 Nothing dirty, But you have to relent and take the QB out of the option as much as possible and then make the others beat you; which is easier because of the dedicated spy being out of the picture. More so if QB spots such disguises and changes up the blocking scheme.  Nevertheless, fast, athletic D with discipline in performing their assignments can devise some creatively disguised sets to 'fake ' out the O and slow it down at times.  Some really smart DC are already combing through college tape to get snippets of ideas that might work in the NFL.  I guess we'll see over time So it appears the goal is to contain it, and it is not a good idea to hang back and let the QB see what you are doing and make the read to exploit it.  That has to be addressed, and some team with a set of players with certain skill (fast/athletic) set and creative DC will find a way to slow it, IMO.


“There’s no question he’s (Luck) a complete football player and one of the top quarterbacks in this league already. He has a great career in front of him but I think he’s already established himself as a very poised and talented player that can do a lot of things to beat you and he manages his team well and plays good situational football.”       -New England Patriots Head Coach Bill Belichick

 


#139 Matugi

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 04:02 PM

I mean contain is all you can really do, and I guess that's the underlying point: the option is NOT an offense, unlike the pistol. It's a wrinkle and set of plays that are/will be used 10-12 times a game to keep a defense off balance. The key is that defenses don't know when it's coming and it requires a level of discipline as an entire unit that is hard to achieve because it is hard to know when it is coming. That's why I think it will last: not because it is an entire offense, but because it is a key to cog that because of the nature of when and how it's run is hard to stop.

#140 NewEra

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 04:14 PM

Apparently you have no idea what hypocrisy, irony, or bottom feeders mean, and I can't say that I'm not surprised. haha See the sig...see the talent...and tremble thinking about the future. Texans>Colts, if you want to take this thread in that direction. Going to be closed soon anyway.

Ditto, I'm surprised you even know how to find your way around the net being a texans fan. We spotted you the last 2 years. Hope it was fun while it lasted. Ok, bottom feeders was extreme. Second fiddle...
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#141 QwizBoy

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 04:17 PM

Ditto, I'm surprised you even know how to find your way around the net being a texans fan. We spotted you the last 2 years. Hope it was fun while it lasted. Ok, bottom feeders was extreme. Second fiddle...

Second fiddle while being best in the division, two and more than likely three years straight? Sure, whatever floats your boat.


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#142 NewEra

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 04:20 PM

Second fiddle while being best in the division, two and more than likely three years straight? Sure, whatever floats your boat.


Oh next year it may be back with the Colts. Wishful thinking anyways, heh
Colts fan for 20+ years. Was Colts4Lyfe on forums years and 5 or so different sites ago. Been lurking around ever since. Desided to rejoin to bond with my fellow fans in our time of need. Really excited at what lies ahead!!

#143 Larry Horseman

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:57 PM

Not for nothing, Cam, RGIII, Wilson, and Luck have very similar combine stats (and were really much better than Kaepernick). You can find everything here: http://www.nfl.com/combine. Making any claim saying that one is a much better athlete than the others is foolish. RGIII has sprinters speed, none of the rest of them do. All of them have NFL arms and quickness and are more mobile than any of the older franchise QBs (e.g., Brady, Manning, Big Ben, Eli, Ryan, etc. ever have been). Like it or not, there is a race perception with Luck that because he is white he isn't the athlete the others are. Hence the Big Ben comparisons. While an excellent player in his own right, Big Ben is not in the same tier of athleticism as these other young QBs. Luck also ran a much different system than the other young QBs, but not because he couldn't be more "mobile." I actually think he and the Colts offense would benefit from more bootlegs, QB runs, sliding pockets, etc., and that we will see that under Pep.

 

More back on topic, the pistol, option, whatever other type of play/formation we want to lump in here, is here to stay in the NFL. I don't think the Skins will be able to keep running RGIII like they did this year over the long-term. However, I'm assuming much of this year's play calling was a way to help RGIII succeed at a high level as a rookie. Once he begins to fully grasp the speed of the NFL, the playbook will open up more. That being said, Shanahan never has been a spread it out and chuck it all over the field coach...see Elway. The offenses ran by the Seahawks and 49ers are much different than what the Skins ran this year, and are  sustainable. This is particularly true for the Seahawks. Defenses will adjust to the pistol/option but with the right personnel, it will still be effective.



#144 BrentMc11

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:18 PM

Not for nothing, Cam, RGIII, Wilson, and Luck have very similar combine stats (and were really much better than Kaepernick). You can find everything here: http://www.nfl.com/combine. Making any claim saying that one is a much better athlete than the others is foolish. RGIII has sprinters speed, none of the rest of them do. All of them have NFL arms and quickness and are more mobile than any of the older franchise QBs (e.g., Brady, Manning, Big Ben, Eli, Ryan, etc. ever have been). Like it or not, there is a race perception with Luck that because he is white he isn't the athlete the others are. Hence the Big Ben comparisons. While an excellent player in his own right, Big Ben is not in the same tier of athleticism as these other young QBs. Luck also ran a much different system than the other young QBs, but not because he couldn't be more "mobile." I actually think he and the Colts offense would benefit from more bootlegs, QB runs, sliding pockets, etc., and that we will see that under Pep.

 

More back on topic, the pistol, option, whatever other type of play/formation we want to lump in here, is here to stay in the NFL. I don't think the Skins will be able to keep running RGIII like they did this year over the long-term. However, I'm assuming much of this year's play calling was a way to help RGIII succeed at a high level as a rookie. Once he begins to fully grasp the speed of the NFL, the playbook will open up more. That being said, Shanahan never has been a spread it out and chuck it all over the field coach...see Elway. The offenses ran by the Seahawks and 49ers are much different than what the Skins ran this year, and are  sustainable. This is particularly true for the Seahawks. Defenses will adjust to the pistol/option but with the right personnel, it will still be effective.

VERY well written post.  The only thing I will say is I do not think the Zone Read AKA Pistol etc. will be here to stay.  While San Francisco, Washington, and Seattle will do everything to prove me wrong, I am a firm believer in NFL defenses. :nfl:

 

I know I have said this before, but I would take 15 yard penalties and hit that QB.. :flag: ..that is how the Ravens are going to 'roll.'  You have to put fear in that QB that he will be hurting today and tomorrow....and for gosh sakes play contain.  Almost all big runs by QBs are from lack of a positional player 'staying home.'  This is nothing but veer offense meets 2013 athleticism.....(OK...more than that, but :))  My opinion only!!!


Change is good!  

 

BrentMc11


#145 Larry Horseman

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:37 PM

VERY well written post.  The only thing I will say is I do not think the Zone Read AKA Pistol etc. will be here to stay.  While San Francisco, Washington, and Seattle will do everything to prove me wrong, I am a firm believer in NFL defenses. :nfl:

 

I know I have said this before, but I would take 15 yard penalties and hit that QB.. :flag: ..that is how the Ravens are going to 'roll.'  You have to put fear in that QB that he will be hurting today and tomorrow....and for gosh sakes play contain.  Almost all big runs by QBs are from lack of a positional player 'staying home.'  This is nothing but veer offense meets 2013 athleticism.....(OK...more than that, but :))  My opinion only!!!

 

Agreed that defenses will adjust, but they also made adjustments to other sorts of formations/plays (screens, heavy, standard WCO sets, etc.) as others have mentioned throughout this thread and they continue to be used. The ability to have multiple players run the ball (up to three) and an accurate QB who has NFL passing ability provides four legit options on any given play, telling me that it will continue to be used in some form or another. It will also be more or less effective based on the opposing defense game plan and personnel. The real issue to me is giving the QB 10+ carries/game really increases the likelihood of injury in the NFL, thus its the volume of runs not the actual formation/play that isn't sustainable. I think what Seattle did with Wilson this year (watched a lot of Hawks games) will continue to be successful (Wilson was a passer first and foremost) and should be utilized in some form under the new Pep offense. Also, look at how SanFran adjusted from the Packers game to the Falcons game. Keapernick hardly ran against the Falcons and the passing and RB rush aspects of the offense were still very successful because of the formation's ability to offer so many legit options.



#146 BrentMc11

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:51 PM

Agreed that defenses will adjust, but they also made adjustments to other sorts of formations/plays (screens, heavy, standard WCO sets, etc.) as others have mentioned throughout this thread and they continue to be used. The ability to have multiple players run the ball (up to three) and an accurate QB who has NFL passing ability provides four legit options on any given play, telling me that it will continue to be used in some form or another. It will also be more or less effective based on the opposing defense game plan and personnel. The real issue to me is giving the QB 10+ carries/game really increases the likelihood of injury in the NFL, thus its the volume of runs not the actual formation/play that isn't sustainable. I think what Seattle did with Wilson this year (watched a lot of Hawks games) will continue to be successful (Wilson was a passer first and foremost) and should be utilized in some form under the new Pep offense. Also, look at how SanFran adjusted from the Packers game to the Falcons game. Keapernick hardly ran against the Falcons and the passing and RB rush aspects of the offense were still very successful because of the formation's ability to offer so many legit options.

Good stuff Larry!  


Change is good!  

 

BrentMc11







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