The backup QB readiness should never be about the primary QB, it is all about the coaching

[Qwiz]

It wasn't an open competition. Collins didn't even play in the preseason.

Well he still had 15 years on Painter. It was a smart move by the coaches to go and grab a veteran, in case their other project didn't work. Maybe they were hoping for a Warner-like resurgence that just fell short. I still can't fathom why they would want the 39 year old over a young gun who had been in their system for years already, but I guess experience gets you starts in the league.

[FireJimCaldwell]

According to whom?

Unfortunately I do think Polian slurred that out or something to that affect at one point. But he also said that Collins could master any offense conceptually in 48 hours.

[The Peytonator]

Peyton Manning would have taken last year's team to the playoffs.

Endo story.

[Qwiz]

Well let's not pretend that he came out and lighting up the score board.

They protected him. He only exceeded 30 or more throws 3 times including the playoffs. He had his training wheels on and the WCO along with his experience in the WCO at UNC helped him perform as good as he did and better than expected.

No, he didn't light up the score board, but he did just enough to almost guarantee us a trip to the AFC Championship Game. If not for the costly fumble on special teams, our rookie would have beaten the Ravens, and probably have given New England's 31st ranked defense trouble.

[The Peytonator]

No, he didn't light up the score board, but he did just enough to almost guarantee us a trip to the AFC Championship Game. If not for the costly fumble on special teams, our rookie would have beaten the Ravens, and probably have given New England's 31st ranked defense trouble.

You realize you had a better overall team, and more importantly not this guy...

.....as your head coach? Right?

So what's the issue here?

[Gavin]

How do you know it didn't help Painter? He could have been exponentially worse than he was without being around Manning a couple of years. If anything Painter's weakness was mental and fundamentals. He had the pocket presence of Ray Charles and that is hard to teach. He didn't have anywhere near the grasp of the offense that Sorgi had. He had a far better arm than Sorgi but Sorgi was a far better quarterback than Painter.

No question his weakness was mental, but there is still only so much you can learn by sitting on the bench, even Aaron Rodgers got more game time before he was made the starter, now obviously I think Rodgers had alot more going for him in the form of talent coming in, his draft position alone shows that, Painters weakness was unquestionably mental as evidenced by sitting behind Manning watching him run Peytons offense for a couple years, still there is only so much you can learn by sitting and watching

[Qwiz]

Well now we're getting into different territory, and I'm not quite sure what the arguement is about.

1. Our team has had pretty solid receivers since I can remember. The media always liked to talk them up when talking about all the weapons Peyton had. Reggie Wayne as you mentioned, is no slouch. But don't so calously disregard Austin Collie and Pierre Garcon. Garcon received a pretty hefty contract this offseason, and it wasn't because he sucked. In 2010, before all the concussions, Austin Collie was a numbers machine. I believe he led the league in yards and touchdowns for a while. Painter's receivers were not scrubs.

2. The offensive line, believe it or not, was actually improved from the previous year. We had a significantly better running game, and that was without the threat of a legit QB to stretch the defense.

3. The coaching staff was inept in all facets of the game. Not sure what you're getting at with that one.

Garcon is not horrible but he is known as the dropping machine all throughout the league. Between 3 quarterbacks, Collie managed to catch only a single touchdown this season. I'm not saying that the guy is horrible, he's not, but come on now. Yes, they were improved, but how many sacks did they give up this year?

[Qwiz]

Peyton Manning would have taken last year's team to the playoffs.

Endo story.

[Superman]

Well he still had 15 years on Painter. It was a smart move by the coaches to go and grab a veteran, in case their other project didn't work. Maybe they were hoping for a Warner-like resurgence that just fell short. I still can't fathom why they would want the 39 year old over a young gun who had been in their system for years already, but I guess experience gets you starts in the league.

Another bad decision. Collins was never a good idea for our team. It was evident from the minute he stepped on the field.

[Qwiz]

You realize you had a better overall team, and more importantly not this guy...

.....as your head coach? Right?

So what's the issue here?

[The Peytonator]

Garcon is not horrible but he is known as the dropping machine all throughout the league. Between 3 quarterbacks, Collie managed to catch only a single touchdown this season. I'm not saying that the guy is horrible, he's not, but come on now. Yes, they were improved, but how many sacks did they give up this year?

[Superman]

Maybe. But even if he had, it would have been a wild card spot. The Titans and Jaguars surely weren't going to be competition, even though they did manage some wins against you guys while Manning was away.

The Texans won 10 games. They didn't exactly have a stranglehold on the division title.

[Qwiz]

Another bad decision. Collins was never a good idea for our team. It was evident from the minute he stepped on the field.

[FireJimCaldwell]

No question his weakness was mental, but there is still only so much you can learn by sitting on the bench, even Aaron Rodgers got more game time before he was made the starter, now obviously I think Rodgers had alot more going for him in the form of talent coming in, his draft position alone shows that, Painters weakness was unquestionably mental as evidenced by sitting behind Manning watching him run Peytons offense for a couple years, still there is only so much you can learn by sitting and watching

[FireJimCaldwell]

Had the Colts excelled this year in their quarterback's absence, all of the fans would be screaming for Caldwell to get a contract extension. Because they came up short, he has become the scapegoat. Coaches can only do so much. We don't know what went on in that locker room. We don't know what speeches were said and weren't said. It is up to the team to find the fire to perform, and I know that even though it's not entirely his fault, the onus still falls on Caldwell. That's just how team sports work I suppose. Before last season people were saying Kubiak was only meant to be an offensive coordinator, just like the people in Dallas said the same for Phillips, except on defense. Now that we have success he's one of the "better coaches" in the league and can get his team to the Super Bowl. It's hypocrisy.

[Superman]

Had the Colts excelled this year in their quarterback's absence, all of the fans would be screaming for Caldwell to get a contract extension. Because they came up short, he has become the scapegoat. Coaches can only do so much. We don't know what went on in that locker room. We don't know what speeches were said and weren't said. It is up to the team to find the fire to perform, and I know that even though it's not entirely his fault, the onus still falls on Caldwell. That's just how team sports work I suppose. Before last season people were saying Kubiak was only meant to be an offensive coordinator, just like the people in Dallas said the same for Phillips, except on defense. Now that we have success he's one of the "better coaches" in the league and can get his team to the Super Bowl. It's hypocrisy.

You really don't know what you're talking about.

Caldwell showed himself to be a bad coach last year, when it was time for him to actually massage a few wins out of a troubled roster. The sheer lack of adjustments that led to us starting out 0-13 is enough evidence that Caldwell isn't a good coach.

[The Peytonator]

Had the Colts excelled this year in their quarterback's absence, all of the fans would be screaming for Caldwell to get a contract extension. Because they came up short, he has become the scapegoat. Coaches can only do so much. We don't know what went on in that locker room. We don't know what speeches were said and weren't said. It is up to the team to find the fire to perform, and I know that even though it's not entirely his fault, the onus still falls on Caldwell. That's just how team sports work I suppose. Before last season people were saying Kubiak was only meant to be an offensive coordinator, just like the people in Dallas said the same for Phillips, except on defense. Now that we have success he's one of the "better coaches" in the league and can get his team to the Super Bowl. It's hypocrisy.

[The Peytonator]

Sorgi performed far better than Painter in his limited time, and likely had similar amount of reps with the first team. He was brighter and could comprehend the game mentally.

[Qwiz]

With all due respect, you have no idea how our team operates.

Yes Garcon has the dropsies, but if I'm not mistaken, he only had like 3 this year, and he had a lot of big play TDs. Yes Collie had one touchdown. But he played primarily in the slot. Curtis Painter doesn't have the football IQ to make reads. He targets his primary receiver, and lets it rip. Peyton Manning on the other hand, knows how to read defenses before the snap, and knows where his favorable matchups are. Peyton wasn't allowed to be in Curtis's ear before the snap.

Also, they gave up more sacks this year than they have in a while. But don't you think that might have been more on the lack of awareness displayed by the QBs, than the Oline? Peyton knows how to avoid hits, and his release is significantly faster than the aforementioned QB tandem of Big O, Grandpa, and The Painter. Grandpa Collins was especially bad in the football awareness column, and that was the biggest reason you guys blew us out so bad in the opener.

[Qwiz]

The Texans won 10 games. They didn't exactly have a stranglehold on the division title.

[Superman]

We lost arguably our best defensive player, our starting quarterback, and our best wide receiver and running back for several games. Go figure.

And that's why I say that you didn't have a stranglehold on the division.

The Texans are very good. You don't need to be defensive. But given the circumstances last season, had the other teams been better, perhaps you wouldn't have won the division.

[Qwiz]

You really don't know what you're talking about.

Caldwell showed himself to be a bad coach last year, when it was time for him to actually massage a few wins out of a troubled roster. The sheer lack of adjustments that led to us starting out 0-13 is enough evidence that Caldwell isn't a good coach.

I know exactly what I'm talking about. Adjustments will not help a team that does not fight hard enough to win. Had the Colts played with some heart instead of just having some sort of us vs. the league state of mind, maybe they would have won more games and maybe Caldwell would still be their coach. No one said anything when they lost the game against the Jets a few years ago. You know why? Because they went to the Super Bowl. Yes, the media tried to blow it out of proportion, but that was because the perfect season was being ruined.

[Qwiz]

The only time anyone ever liked Caldwell, was when he was first hired and made it sound like we'd have an aggressive defense, and maybe grow a pair when it comes to coverage. We also liked him firing certain 'underperformers' on the coaching staff. Unfortunately he filled their spots with guys that were just as bad.

If you were a Colts fan you would understand. Our defensive philosophy has been, 'Let them move the ball down the field uncontested, eventually they might mess up.'

I most certainly hope not lol. If that is the philosophy of any NFL coach then there is a serious problem hahaha.

[Superman]

I know exactly what I'm talking about. Adjustments will not help a team that does not fight hard enough to win. Had the Colts played with some heart instead of just having some sort of us vs. the league state of mind, maybe they would have won more games and maybe Caldwell would still be their coach. No one said anything when they lost the game against the Jets a few years ago. You know why? Because they went to the Super Bowl. Yes, the media tried to blow it out of proportion, but that was because the perfect season was being ruined.

You don't know what you're talking about.

The fact that we finally won a couple of games late in the season proves that the players didn't just roll over. Your "play with some heart" comment is offensive and offbase. It's not surprising coming from you. But this is just further proof that you're out of touch.

If you had watched all the games, you would see that adjustments would have helped us win a number of games earlier in the season. The Tampa Bay game immediately comes to mind, seeing as how that's one where the complete lack of adjustments clearly cost us the game.

Lastly, given the way Caldwell failed as the head coach last season, your argument that "maybe he'd still be the coach" is further proof that you don't get it. It's a good thing Caldwell is no longer the head coach.

[Qwiz]

And that's why I say that you didn't have a stranglehold on the division.

The Texans are very good. You don't need to be defensive. But given the circumstances last season, had the other teams been better, perhaps you wouldn't have won the division.

I guess have to look at it both ways then. Had the other teams been worse, and we had all our starters and been better, could we have gone all the way to the Super Bowl?

[The Peytonator]

So that brings us back to the original argument. Reps. Had Painter been getting actual reps and gelling with his receivers while at the same time learning his plays, check-downs, and reads, he might have been able to distribute the ball. Let's not put all of the blame on the quarterback. If I remember correctly, our defense got into the backfield a number of times when Collins was playing, so was it his fault as well?

Again, Painter had plenty of reps with the ones while Peyton was sitting around in his mansion rehabbing from his neck operation. He sucked too much, so they grabbed Collins out of retirement. If Peyton were playing, for one, the defense never would have got in the backfield because he wouldn't of had Dallas Clark blocking Mario Williams one-on-one. If they did get in the backfield, Peyton would have just taken a fall. He would not have fumbled 20,000 times like Collins.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I know exactly what I'm talking about. Adjustments will not help a team that does not fight hard enough to win. Had the Colts played with some heart instead of just having some sort of us vs. the league state of mind, maybe they would have won more games and maybe Caldwell would still be their coach. No one said anything when they lost the game against the Jets a few years ago. You know why? Because they went to the Super Bowl. Yes, the media tried to blow it out of proportion, but that was because the perfect season was being ruined.

Obviously you don't have a grasp of how that mistake was treated by fans on Colts message boards. Super Bowl or not, Caldwell, Polian and Irsay were grilled by many, as they should have.

[Gavin]

Well, for starters he had no business running Manning's offense, but that is on Caldwell & Christensen. Painter did the best he could with what he was instructed to do.

Again, he had plenty of work in training camps, practices.

I've always believed in the theory that a young QB needs to play. The Giants wasted 9 games by sitting Eli Manning on the bench in 2004. There have been examples of players like Rodgers, Carson Palmer, Mcnabb, sitting for a year or more in the case of Rodgers and coming in and playing well.

Curtis Painter isn't that type of Quarterback. Tom Brady when he was first drafted with the Patriots rarely received any reps with the first team because those reps went to Bledsoe as they should have. QB's either have it or they don't and I've always advocated playing the young rookies early. They either show that they have it and you know you are set for a number of years or they flake out like Russell, or Leaf and the team knows that they need to find an alternative.

But all of that is about QB's drafted expected to play.

Sorgi performed far better than Painter in his limited time, and likely had similar amount of reps with the first team. He was brighter and could comprehend the game mentally.

Even if the Colts made the mistake and split reps with Manning & Painter each week, I don't foresee any huge difference in Painter. Lack of reps with the first team is only a small reason(%) that he failed as a Quarterback.

I agree with all that

[The Peytonator]

I most certainly hope not lol. If that is the philosophy of any NFL coach then there is a serious problem hahaha.

I assure you, that was the defensive philosophy.

[Superman]

I guess have to look at it both ways then. Had the other teams been worse, and we had all our starters and been better, could we have gone all the way to the Super Bowl?

What does that have to do with anything?

Given the circumstances, you won 10 games. Good for you. Your team is really good to be able to do that with all those injuries. All I'm saying is that 10 wins isn't enough for you to think that you had the division locked up no matter what. Because you had all those injuries, it left the door open. The problem is that everyone else was so bad that they couldn't challenge.

I fully expect the Texans to win the division this season. If they have a little more health, they should be a contender for a first round bye. Again, this is not to demean your team. You don't have to defend them. I'm simply saying that 10 wins leaves the door open for the rest of the division.

[Qwiz]

You don't know what you're talking about.

The fact that we finally won a couple of games late in the season proves that the players didn't just roll over. Your "play with some heart" comment is offensive and offbase. It's not surprising coming from you. But this is just further proof that you're out of touch.

If you had watched all the games, you would see that adjustments would have helped us win a number of games earlier in the season. The Tampa Bay game immediately comes to mind, seeing as how that's one where the complete lack of adjustments clearly cost us the game.

Lastly, given the way Caldwell failed as the head coach last season, your argument that "maybe he'd still be the coach" is further proof that you don't get it. It's a good thing Caldwell is no longer the head coach.

Not surprising coming from me? That means what, exactly? I in no way shape or form have any hatred for the Colts. I speak the truth, whether it is offensive or not. Your team could not even beat Colt McCoy and the 4-12 Browns. The Browns, man. Even they performed better and won more games. Blame coaching all you want, but like I said, had the Colts won at least six games last season, then Caldwell would still be the head coach. Had Manning played and you guys had failed to make the playoffs but at least put up a fight, Caldwell would still be the head coach. It is only because of the way you guys went down that he was fired. Did you really expect him to put Orlovsky in as starter earlier in the season? Over a quarterback who had been there for so long already?

[Qwiz]

Again, Painter had plenty of reps with the ones while Peyton was sitting around in his mansion rehabbing from his neck operation. He sucked too much, so they grabbed Collins out of retirement. If Peyton were playing, for one, the defense never would have got in the backfield because he wouldn't of had Dallas Clark blocking Mario Williams one-on-one. If they did get in the backfield, Peyton would have just taken a fall. He would not have fumbled 20,000 times like Collins.

A sack is a sack. Take turnovers out of the game, and even with Manning playing, I still think we would have had the game won. Heck, our defense probably would have played better. Who doesn't want to sack Manning? Lol. For example, you know you are going to get a good game out of Freeney, Nevis, and Mathis when you guys finally play the Broncos.

[Qwiz]

What does that have to do with anything?

Given the circumstances, you won 10 games. Good for you. Your team is really good to be able to do that with all those injuries. All I'm saying is that 10 wins isn't enough for you to think that you had the division locked up no matter what. Because you had all those injuries, it left the door open. The problem is that everyone else was so bad that they couldn't challenge.

I fully expect the Texans to win the division this season. If they have a little more health, they should be a contender for a first round bye. Again, this is not to demean your team. You don't have to defend them. I'm simply saying that 10 wins leaves the door open for the rest of the division.

Alright. I get what you're saying.

[Qwiz]

Obviously you don't have a grasp of how that mistake was treated by fans on Colts message boards. Super Bowl or not, Caldwell, Polian and Irsay were grilled by many, as they should have.

For making sure their star quarterback did not get injured? Yes, the perfect season was tempting, but was it worth the risk though?

[Superman]

Not surprising coming from me? That means what, exactly? I in no way shape or form have any hatred for the Colts. I speak the truth, whether it is offensive or not. Your team could not even beat Colt McCoy and the 4-12 Browns. The Browns, man. Even they performed better and won more games. Blame coaching all you want, but like I said, had the Colts won at least six games last season, then Caldwell would still be the head coach. Had Manning played and you guys had failed to make the playoffs but at least put up a fight, Caldwell would still be the head coach. It is only because of the way you guys went down that he was fired. Did you really expect him to put Orlovsky in as starter earlier in the season? Over a quarterback who had been there for so long already?

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

As it stands, it's irrelevant.

Your idea that the players didn't play hard is completely inaccurate. Your idea that they didn't play with heart is equally inaccurate, and offensive, precisely because it's inaccurate.

And the fact that more wins would have kept Caldwell his job is completely irrelevant, but probably the most accurate thing you've said. That's the way the NFL works: when you go 2-14, your job is in danger. Is there something wrong with holding a coach accountable for the kind of season Caldwell stewarded last year? Do you have an actual defense of his coaching abilities, aside from a hypothetical in which Manning is healthy?

It's laughable that you mention us losing to the Browns, when your team lost to us. Wait, you're going to point out how many players you were missing, aren't you? I see your hurt players, and raise you one Peyton Manning. I think the point should be clear.

As to Painter vs. Orlovsky, that's really not at issue here. Orlovsky was nothing special himself. As far as quarterbacks go, he would be bottom five in the league last year, just like Painter. That's based on his play. The adjustments the coaching staff should have made have very little to do with personnel changes, and very much to do with the gameplans and adjustments to those gameplans that should have been instituted throughout the season.

Going back to the Bucs game, there was a stretch in that game where, in 11 offensive plays, Painter threw 9 times, with 7 incompletions, and we generated zero first downs. Unacceptable, not only from a quarterbacking standpoint (we've established that Painter isn't very good), but mostly from a coaching standpoint. When your backup quarterback is struggling, on the road, you don't go pass-heavy. Not only was Painter not good, the poor coaching made him look even worse, and cost us games.

You aren't familiar with this, not like I am. That's no surprise; this isn't your team. But please don't come picking apart Colts fans and their dissatisfaction with the dumpster fire of a season we just experienced, both from a coaching and a quarterbacking standpoint, insulting the hard work of the players, second-guessing our allegiances, and calling us hypocrites. It's offensive, and it's inaccurate.

[FireJimCaldwell]

For making sure their star quarterback did not get injured? Yes, the perfect season was tempting, but was it worth the risk though?

He or anyone could have torn his ACL going up or down their steps later that night. It is more about the mindset that it showed that the coaching staff and front office & ownership had along with the mindset that they lacked.

I can't quite articulate it here because it would be in violation of the board rules.

[dgambill]

I don't know what the heck is going on with this thread but back to the point...yes the sole responsibility of a player being ready is THE PLAYER. No one stops them from watching tape....no one stops them from working out on their own....in the offseason...working with their own qb coaches in the offseason. Painter didn't do everything necessary to make himself better and that is only HIS fault. Peyton like any other player is going to make the team better by preparing himself...making himself the best he can be...he can't do that for someone else.

Now...that doesn't absolve the coaches because lets be honest....how much coaching does PM need?? Those coaches had plenty of time to work with the backups if not for the reason to have them ready to play but to grow a player perhaps to be traded. They did neither....and blaming PM is the biggest excuse I've ever heard. I've said it before no backups get number 1 reps unless they are expected to play. It is up to them to step up and learn and grow on their own...nothing is handed to you. Painter didn't do it....showed no effort to be great and failed. Many other backups have had less reps and succeeded.

[Superman]

A sack is a sack. Take turnovers out of the game, and even with Manning playing, I still think we would have had the game won. Heck, our defense probably would have played better. Who doesn't want to sack Manning? Lol. For example, you know you are going to get a good game out of Freeney, Nevis, and Mathis when you guys finally play the Broncos.

Why would you take turnovers out of the game? You scored two touchdowns off of turnovers.

And the sacks are worthy of consideration because Collins clearly wasn't comfortable with his reads and progressions. Not only that, he holds the ball in one hand by his waist, which leads me to believe that a different quarterback wouldn't have fumbled on those plays (yes, even Painter).

Also, since we're talking about coaching, how about the decision to have Dallas Clark go heads up against Mario Williams? Did he get beat because he has no heart, or did he get beat because he had no business on an island with one of the best pass rushers in the league?

[FireJimCaldwell]

A sack is a sack. Take turnovers out of the game, and even with Manning playing, I still think we would have had the game won. Heck, our defense probably would have played better. Who doesn't want to sack Manning? Lol. For example, you know you are going to get a good game out of Freeney, Nevis, and Mathis when you guys finally play the Broncos.

What he is saying is that some of those sacks wouldn't have occurred because Manning would have likely saw the 44 vs. 90 match up and checked to a run, or a different protection or got the ball out sooner.

You lose any credibility by saying the defense would play better vs. Manning as opposed to Collins. They might have tried harder because they would know they would need to be closer to perfect, but to say they would play better is absurd.

[Superman]

Painter didn't do it....showed no effort to be great and failed. Many other backups have had less reps and succeeded.

I don't think he failed because he showed no effort to be great. He just isn't a good NFL quarterback. He could have been better had our coaches put him in better position to succeed. Or had our offensive line played better, which would have allowed us to rely on our running game more. But he is what he is, and that's a limited quarterback. Some people just don't have "it."