For Those Who Are Optimistic

[braveheartcolt]

Be careful throwing that label around too liberally. Some of us believe that placing a priority on Manning IS putting the Colts first.

There is a gentle balance between whats best for our long-term and whats bets for the short term, in terms of season and post season success.

And some of us think thank placing a priority on Manning is a waste of time if he can't play.......which would not be putting the Colts first. I appreciate everything at the moment is conjecture x 100. If Manning's health and cap hit tick al the boxes, I want him starting. Full stop.

But my reading of the tea leaves don't think they will. And don't say you knew I was going to say that....

[ruksak]

And some of us think thank placing a priority on Manning is a waste of time if he can't play.......which would not be putting the Colts first. I appreciate everything at the moment is conjecture x 100. If Manning's health and cap hit tick al the boxes, I want him starting. Full stop.

But my reading of the tea leaves don't think they will. And don't say you knew I was going to say that....

I knew you were gonna say that.

[UndecidedFrog]

Be careful throwing that label around too liberally. Some of us believe that placing a priority on Manning IS putting the Colts first.

There is a gentle balance between whats best for our long-term and whats bets for the short term, in terms of season and post season success.

Yes, and some fans think Manning IS the Colts. With that kind of reasoning, anything that forwards Manning is forwarding the Colts.

Fortunately, the majority of fans recognize that this is not so. They recognize that the Colts existed before Manning, and will continue to exist after Manning. They recognize that not everything that benefits Manning will necessarily benefit the Colts. Case in point is Manning's current contract with the Colts.

[ruksak]

Yes, and some fans think Manning IS the Colts. With that kind of reasoning, anything that forwards Manning is forwarding the Colts.

Fortunately, the majority of fans recognize that this is not so. They recognize that the Colts existed before Manning, and will continue to exist after Manning.

...and our existence was......well, we existed I guess. Hence the ingrained relation in many fans psyche between Manning and winning. Heck, the best thing for Manning might just be to leave and find success somewhere else. After all, we just gutted the winning-est professional sports franchise of this century for "???".

I guess retaining one of the few remaining pieces of this era, Manning, (as well as the most prominent) seems to (me) be the best way to proceed into the unknown.

[UndecidedFrog]

...and our existence was......well, we existed I guess. Hence the ingrained relation in many fans psyche between Manning and winning. Heck, the best thing for Manning might just be to leave and find success somewhere else. After all, we just gutted the winning-est professional sports franchise of this century for "???".

I guess retaining one of the few remaining pieces of this era, Manning, (as well as the most prominent) seems to (me) be the best way to proceed into the unknown.

We experienced some wins with Captain Comeback, whom we gutted/traded away, and replaced him with an untested, unknown rookie named Manning.

[ruksak]

We experienced some wins with Captain Comeback, whom we gutted/traded away, and replaced him with an untested, unknown rookie named Manning.

Those two eras are hard to fairly compare. Even during Harbaugh's peek with the Colts, we had what Harbaugh himself described as "a bunch of ragamuffins". The expectations with the Colts teams of the last 10 years or so have been well placed, as the talent level was much higher than in earlier eras.

The wins we had with the Harbaugh bunch weren't consistent, viewed more as an apparition. So gutting that bunch didn't seem at all alarming.

[UndecidedFrog]

Those two eras are hard to fairly compare. Even during Harbaugh's peek with the Colts, we had what Harbaugh himself described as "a bunch of ragamuffins". The expectations with the Colts teams of the last 10 years or so have been well placed, as the talent level was much higher than in earlier eras.

The wins we had with the Harbaugh bunch weren't consistent, viewed more as an apparition. So gutting that bunch didn't seem at all alarming.

And you seem to think that the 2-14 team last season were better than "a bunch of ragamuffins"?

Add to that team, a 36 year old FHOF QB, who hasn't played one NFL down all last season, coming off multiple neck surgeries, and whose arm strength is questionable,

all operating under new schemes defensively, and maybe offensively as well (from lessons learned last season), do you think we have a division winning contender here? (let alone playoff contender or SB contender).

[ruksak]

And you seem to think that the 2-14 team last season were better than "a bunch of ragamuffins"?

They were capable of much more, yes. At least 7 of our 22 starters were probowlers, many more capable of such honors.

...do you think we have a division winning contender here? (let alone playoff contender or SB contender).

With Manning, yes.

Add to that team, a 36 year old FHOF QB, who hasn't played one NFL down all last season, coming off multiple neck surgeries, and whose arm strength is questionable,

This is where you and I are going to diverge. I WILL NOT engage in this superfluous examination of all things unknown. He is some 14 months removed from live action and had corrective surgery with a wide-ranging recovery scope. He is Peyton Manning, he can do it, and he will. All of the sewage spilling from the infectious mouths of the media has caused people to second guess the greatest of all time.

If we do part ways with Manning and we do not have a high level of success within 5-6 years, then we failed. If we're firing Pagano and Griggs, we failed when we let Manning go.

I would bet much that wherever Manning goes, they will not have this problem. Dark clouds do not follow that man, they simply appear where he is not. Such was the 2011 Colts.

[manningstheman]

http://www.nfl.com/n..._headline_stack

This gives me comfort as I'm surrounded by all of the infectious negativity.

Right on. There seems to be this opinion by some that Peyton Manning cant even get out of bed and put on his own pants anymore. That is extreme, I know. But, for some reason there is this bad buzz going around about Mannings injury. There have been plenty of people, including NFL players, that have had this operation. They are not laying in hospital beds being fed through ivy's. He will be fine. He is already looking alot better then he did at the beginning of last season. He will be fine. He will play again. He will be great again.

One of the greatest players ever, that never missed one NFL start, had to sit out a whole season and watch his beloved team struggle the way they did. Then he had to hear everyone writing hiim off or being traded and being a washed up QB. This is all fuel to a man that is as proud, confident, and confident as Peyton is. If anyone thinks Peyton wont be back playing at an elite level again they are wrong. There are haters out there. For so many years there have been Peyton haters right here in Colts country. They doubted he could win big games. They doubted he could win playoff games. They doubted he could get to a Superbowl. They doubted he could win a Superbowl. Then they all of a sudden loved him. Then he lost a Superbowl and they hated him again. The haters have been waiting a long time to get rid of Peyton. This is there chance. Some of them spend most of their day on here commenting on every post they can. Usually telling them they are either right to get rid of Peyton, or how wrong they are that Peyton will be good again and playing for the Colts. Well they can sit on there toadstools and keep eating the flies.

Thanks for the good news!!

[Phil J]

Right on. There seems to be this opinion by some that Peyton Manning cant even get out of bed and put on his own pants anymore. That is extreme, I know. But, for some reason there is this bad buzz going around about Mannings injury. There have been plenty of people, including NFL players, that have had this operation. They are not laying in hospital beds being fed through ivy's. He will be fine. He is already looking alot better then he did at the beginning of last season. He will be fine. He will play again. He will be great again.

One of the greatest players ever, that never missed one NFL start, had to sit out a whole season and watch his beloved team struggle the way they did. Then he had to hear everyone writing hiim off or being traded and being a washed up QB. This is all fuel to a man that is as proud, confident, and confident as Peyton is. If anyone thinks Peyton wont be back playing at an elite level again they are wrong. There are haters out there. For so many years there have been Peyton haters right here in Colts country. They doubted he could win big games. They doubted he could win playoff games. They doubted he could get to a Superbowl. They doubted he could win a Superbowl. Then they all of a sudden loved him. Then he lost a Superbowl and they hated him again. The haters have been waiting a long time to get rid of Peyton. This is there chance. Some of them spend most of their day on here commenting on every post they can. Usually telling them they are either right to get rid of Peyton, or how wrong they are that Peyton will be good again and playing for the Colts. Well they can sit on there toadstools and keep eating the flies.

Thanks for the good news!!

so when that doesn't happen, you are gonna be ok, right? Andrew Luck steps in, stumbles a bit in his first couple seasons, picks up his game and we keep rebuilding pieces around him to get us to be great again. You ready for that possibility?

sounds like you are not ready. at what point are you ready to let Manning go?

[UndecidedFrog]

This is where you and I are going to diverge. I WILL NOT engage in this superfluous examination of all things unknown. He is some 14 months removed from live action and had corrective surgery with a wide-ranging recovery scope. He is Peyton Manning, he can do it, and he will. All of the sewage spilling from the infectious mouths of the media has caused people to second guess the greatest of all time.

We can part ways, but what I have cited remain as facts.

1) He will be 36 years old this upcoming season

2) He has not played a single NFL down last season

3) He has had multiple surgeries to his neck

4) His arm strength is questionable right now.

You may choose to call the above sewage that media has tossed around. However, they remain facts that are KNOWN.

You may choose not to engage them, but they will not simply disappear because you choose it.

I hear what you are saying, and your faith (is that the right word?) in PM's ability to come back to form. However, you will forgive me for thinking PM as human, and subject to human inability to recover from devastating injury?

If we do part ways with Manning and we do not have a high level of success within 5-6 years, then we failed. If we're firing Pagano and Griggs, we failed when we let Manning go.

If we do part ways with PM, and we do not have an immediate level of high success, we would not necessarily have failed. You are speculating into the UNKNOWN. With PM, and his injury status, you assume we would continue to have a high level of success, which is by no means guaranteed. I could just as easily speculate that with PM back, and with his unknown arm strength at QB, we experience yet another 2-14 season. There are simply no guarantees to the future. Your tea leaves are no better than mine.

I would bet much that wherever Manning goes, they will not have this problem. Dark clouds do not follow that man, they simply appear where he is not. Such was the 2011 Colts.

I would probably take you up on that bet. But not for much, as I do not want to bankrupt you.

FYI, the 2011 Colts had PM on active roster, and the dark clouds of a 2-14 season was indeed recorded.

[ruksak]

so when that doesn't happen, you are gonna be ok, right? Andrew Luck steps in, stumbles a bit in his first couple seasons, picks up his game and we keep rebuilding pieces around him to get us to be great again. You ready for that possibility?

sounds like you are not ready. at what point are you ready to let Manning go?

I don't know who you get your information from but Manning is playing for the Colts in 2012.

[Vance]

I don't know who you get your information from but Manning is playing for the Colts in 2012.

Well if Nostradamus said it, darnit I'm in.

[ruksak]

We can part ways, but what I have cited remain as facts.

1) He will be 36 years old this upcoming season

2) He has not played a single NFL down last season

3) He has had multiple surgeries to his neck

4) His arm strength is questionable right now.

You may choose to call the above sewage that media has tossed around. However, they remain facts that are KNOWN.

These static facts have bogus inferences and suppositions attached to them. I am not arguing that these are not facts, I'm arguing the sense of attaching a worse case scenario to each one as a means to grab peoples attention.

I hear what you are saying, and your faith (is that the right word?) in PM's ability to come back to form. However, you will forgive me for thinking PM as human, and subject to human inability to recover from devastating injury?

I do not subscribe to faith. It is an antiquated philosophy in which everything happens for a reason and an omnipotent being is pulling our strings. I trust that he'll be back because it is the opposite of what the media has said. How's that for "tea leaves"?

If we do part ways with PM, and we do not have an immediate level of high success, we would not necessarily have failed.

If we went 9-7 with Manning in 2012, people would say we failed. If we went 9-7 with Luck in 2012, people would think we had achieved some level of success. What's that tell ya?

You are speculating into the UNKNOWN. With PM, and his injury status

I'm speculating? Are you serious with that? Me? I'm the one contriving scenarios? I'm doing no such thing. He is a Colt. He is recovering and I have not one singular reason to doubt his ability to heal. He is human....humans heal. I'm saying he's gonna do what he always does, win. That is based on history and fact, not speculation. There are many definitions of the word "speculation". Many definitions are just contemplation, while many others are rooted in conjecture. The conjecture party I will have nothing to do with.

FYI, the 2011 Colts had PM on active roster, and the dark clouds of a 2-14 season was indeed recorded.

Don't do semantics with me, I'll call ya on it. It's cheap intellectual dishonesty, sir.

As a parting gift, here, have a completely irrelevant emoticon

Happy Birthday indeed.

[UndecidedFrog]

These static facts have bogus inferences and suppositions attached to them. I am not arguing that these are not facts, I'm arguing the sense of attaching a worse case scenario to each one as a means to grab peoples attention.

These static facts remain facts. I don't need to infer anything. They are what they are, no matter how you attempt to dress them up as sewage.

I do not subscribe to faith. It is an antiquated philosophy in which everything happens for a reason and an omnipotent being is pulling our strings. I trust that he'll be back because it is the opposite of what the media has said. How's that for "tea leaves"?

I find your method of "trusting" because it is the opposite of what the media has predicted, as totally bizarre.

If we went 9-7 with Manning in 2012, people would say we failed. If we went 9-7 with Luck in 2012, people would think we had achieved some level of success. What's that tell ya?

It tells me the same thing as:

If we went 3-13 with Manning in 1998, people would say we achieved some level of success in building. If we went 3-13 with Luck in 2012, people would think we would have failed.

I'm speculating? Are you serious with that? Me? I'm the one contriving scenarios? I'm doing no such thing. He is a Colt. He is recovering and I have not one singular reason to doubt his ability to heal. He is human....humans heal. I'm saying he's gonna do what he always does, win. That is based on history and fact, not speculation. There are many definitions of the word "speculation". Many definitions are just contemplation, while many others are rooted in conjecture. The conjecture party I will have nothing to do with.

Yes, you were speculating when you claimed, "...he can do it, and he will.", when in fact you don't know. He may recover his arm strength, and he may not. Yes, humans sometimes heal, and sometimes they don't heal. "You're saying he's gonna", and that is speculating.

You are claiming that PM has healed from multiple neck surgeries before? Or are you claiming that PM has regenerated nerves before? Neither is fact.

.

Don't do semantics with me, I'll call ya on it. It's cheap intellectual dishonesty, sir.

Semantics aside, it is still a fact, that contradicts your claim. I'll make you a deal. You stop overstating reality, and I will stop doing semantics with you.

[Warhorse]

Sorry warhorse.

All good, I cant wait for the draft and new things to talk about!

[ruksak]

These static facts remain facts. I don't need to infer anything. They are what they are, no matter how you attempt to dress them up as sewage.

I'm not dressing up the wild claims by the media, and that is what I'm referring too. These claims are what dresses up the facts. I have due confidence because I can take that list of facts and site precedence (from other players) to bolster my confidence, line by line.

I find your method of "trusting" because it is the opposite of what the media has predicted, as totally bizarre.

We're talking about sports media here. My methodology has served me quite well in this respect.

It tells me the same thing as:

If we went 3-13 with Manning in 1998, people would say we achieved some level of success in building. If we went 3-13 with Luck in 2012, people would think we would have failed.

Man, you gotta get past the numbers bro. I understand that you're quite well versed in numbers/mathematics by reading your posts in relevant cap threads (Quite smart work, admittedly). Success in the midst of a rebuilding phase cannot always be fairly gauged by wins & losses. For a fan (or an organization) to gleam positivity from a 3-13 season can take much digging, or perhaps, a realization that things have changed for the better and patience is what is necessary.

Yes, you were speculating when you claimed, "...he can do it, and he will.", when in fact you don't know. He may recover his arm strength, and he may not.

Allow me to clarify; My brand of speculation isn't rooted in negative connotation, rather, it is rooted in contemplation as opposed to conjecture.

You are claiming that PM has healed from multiple neck surgeries before? Or are you claiming that PM has regenerated nerves before? Neither is fact.

Again, I'm citing precedent from other players.

Semantics aside, it is still a fact, that contradicts your claim. I'll make you a deal. You stop overstating reality, and I will stop doing semantics with you

"Overstating reality"? I said Manning is synonymous with winning.

ruksak ; "Dark clouds do not follow that man, they simply appear where he is not. Such was the 2011 Colts".

So you reply, "He was there. He was on the active roster....na-na-na-boo-boo". You know what I meant and what I said. C'mon man! Your fact didn't contradict my claim to anyone but perhaps a child whom accepts smart-alec remarks in place of true rebuttal.

I'm not even sure what we're arguing about at this point? Other than you think Manning is done here, he is possibly done as a player and you are reflexively withdrawing from supporting him because others (whom have no idea) have burned him to the ground.

[Susie Q]

And you seem to think that the 2-14 team last season were better than "a bunch of ragamuffins"?

Add to that team, a 36 year old FHOF QB, who hasn't played one NFL down all last season, coming off multiple neck surgeries, and whose arm strength is questionable,

all operating under new schemes defensively, and maybe offensively as well (from lessons learned last season), do you think we have a division winning contender here? (let alone playoff contender or SB contender).

Are the Ragamuffins from last year your referring to by any chance Caldwell and Painter?

[ruksak]

Are the Ragamuffins from last year your referring to by any chance Caldwell and Painter?

ok....those are "ragamuffins". lol

HI SUSIE!

Also, I hope people realize that me & Frog are showing how to have a heated debate without personal shots or flaming. We're friends here and like it should be, we agree in some threads and disagree in others.

[Susie Q]

ok....those are "ragamuffins". lol

HI SUSIE!

Also, I hope people realize that me & Frog are showing how to have a heated debate without personal shots or flaming. We're friends here and like it should be, we agree in some threads and disagree in others.

Oh, I wasn't referring anything just picking on friends.

[Ramblinwreck7]

So it took Wenke 2 years to get back? And he was what? 26 - 28? Add 10 years to that in this case.

I guess the question is, can we AFFORD to take the risk AND wait?

Wenke wasn't due 35 million.

I'd like Manning to be back on the team IF he can contribute AND he'll accept Luck at the first pick.

If Manning isn't back on the team, I respect him enough as a player and desire enough to see him play that I hope he plays anywhere.

Of course I'd rather if it were here.

He won the Heisman 2 years after after he got hit. The article doesn't say anything about how long it took him to get back.

[UndecidedFrog]

I'm not dressing up the wild claims by the media, and that is what I'm referring too. These claims are what dresses up the facts. I have due confidence because I can take that list of facts and site precedence (from other players) to bolster my confidence, line by line.

You have portrayed these facts as sewage. They aren't. They are still facts. You can take that list of facts and try to counter them with inference that you are biased towards. However, the facts, without any inference, are still the facts.

We're talking about sports media here. My methodology has served me quite well in this respect.

Were we?

So when sports media write about how dismal Curtis Painter was as QB for the Colts last year, you would go opposite of this, and insist that Painter wasn't dismal as QB for the Colts?

So when the sports media lauded Manning as a great draft prospect, you would insist on not drafting him back in 1998?

I think you were overstating the reality of your position again.

In this case, the sports media do not know the current or future status of PM's arm strength. I expect Irsay, and the docs, trainers, coaches that are superintending PM's rehab will be keeping Irsay informed. I trust Irsay to make the right decision for his team. Afterall, he has a vested interest in the future success of his team.

Man, you gotta get past the numbers bro. I understand that you're quite well versed in numbers/mathematics by reading your posts in relevant cap threads (Quite smart work, admittedly). Success in the midst of a rebuilding phase cannot always be fairly gauged by wins & losses. For a fan (or an organization) to gleam positivity from a 3-13 season can take much digging, or perhaps, a realization that things have changed for the better and patience is what is necessary.

I am past the numbers, and into the facts, as previously listed, which you have kindly portrayed as sewage.

Long term success can be gauged with the long term W-L records, including divisional wins, playoff success and SB wins.

Yes, it will take much digging to determine if 3-13 seasons are equivalent in terms of what they show towards success in rebuilding. However, I rely on the coaches to determine that, as I suspect that most fans will be biased. PM started his rookie season at 3-13. Luck, if he "achieves" a 3-13 in his rookie season, the coaches will need to determine if it was a success given the different parameters ...different teams, different schedules, different schemes employed. Therefore it really doesn't matter what fans think about a 9-7 season with PM or Luck, just as it doesn't matter what fans think about a 3-13 season with PM or Luck.

Allow me to clarify; My brand of speculation isn't rooted in negative connotation, rather, it is rooted in contemplation as opposed to conjecture.

Well, thank you for admitting that you were speculating. You don't know how many fans refuse to even admit that.

Contemplation as opposed to conjecture? And what makes you think your contemplation is of any better quality than someone else's contemplation, which all result in conjecture? Please don't try to pass off your conjecture (based on contemplation) is of any better quality than other's conjecture (based on their contemplation).

Again, I'm citing precedent from other players.

Here are more facts (not sewage) from that precedent:

1) Weinke was a decade younger than PM when he had the neck surgery

2) Weinke had one surgery, and not multiple surgeries that PM had

3) It took Weinke 1 year to regain arm strength

"Overstating reality"? I said Manning is synonymous with winning.

Sorry to disagree. You said "I'm saying he's gonna do what he always does, win." PM does not always win. Sometimes, he loses. This is evidenced by the W-L record.

In addition, you claimed that " "...he can do it, and he will." That is also overstating reality, as you have no knowledge that he can get better, or if he will. The fact is that we do not know if he will, or will not get better enough to his pre-injury form.

ruksak ; "Dark clouds do not follow that man, they simply appear where he is not. Such was the 2011 Colts".

So you reply, "He was there. He was on the active roster....na-na-na-boo-boo". You know what I meant and what I said. C'mon man! Your fact didn't contradict my claim to anyone but perhaps a child whom accepts smart-alec remarks in place of true rebuttal.

Do not misrepresent me. I did not respond with any na-na-na-boo-boo.

I don't think rebuttal is necessary to an obvious overstatement that "dark clouds do not follow" PM. It is an obvious example of hero-worship.

I'm not even sure what we're arguing about at this point? Other than you think Manning is done here, he is possibly done as a player and you are reflexively withdrawing from supporting him because others (whom have no idea) have burned him to the ground.

I am arguing against the rude tone you are taking in your responses to me. I am also arguing that you are speculating as much as the media you accuse of doing the same.

I do not think PM is done here as a Colt. I have no knowledge of his current or future medical condition, nor do I have any idea what goes on in Irsay's mind. I do not speculate (like others are wont to do). Instead what I do is provide truthful IF-THEN statements. IF this happens, THEN that will result to the cap situation.

I have certain facts which I have already shared, which you have portrayed as sewage. My support or non-support for PM, will have nothing to do with the reality of whether his arm strength will recover or not. I think you are letting your emotions run rampant, to the point that you become rude to those who do not share your fervor in hero-worship.

[UndecidedFrog]

Are the Ragamuffins from last year your referring to by any chance Caldwell and Painter?

LOL, yes.

Even though Caldwell was not on the field, I think his lack of preparedness was evident.

He does what he does, doesn't he?

[husker61]

ruksak, you can't argue with the frog. his facts that manning won't be with the colts are correct and everything else is wrong. he completely rejects the fact that most players (excluding db's) that have had this surgery come back and play at the same level. he talks about multiple surgeries, but the only one that really matters is the last one. now if he had to have the last one multiple times, THAT would be a major problem. it's like jetting injured, having physical therapy, then having a scope, and then having a major surgery because the others didn't work. the last surgery is the only one that matters. then there's the ludicrous manning being on the roster and the colts only winning 2 games. his and others speculations are correct and ether's are wrong.

no one is going to change their opinion. that's why i have stopped arguing this point. i will just wait to see what happens.

[UndecidedFrog]

ruksak, you can't argue with the frog. his facts that manning won't be with the colts are correct and everything else is wrong. he completely rejects the fact that most players (excluding db's) that have had this surgery come back and play at the same level. he talks about multiple surgeries, but the only one that really matters is the last one. now if he had to have the last one multiple times, THAT would be a major problem. it's like jetting injured, having physical therapy, then having a scope, and then having a major surgery because the others didn't work. the last surgery is the only one that matters. then there's the ludicrous manning being on the roster and the colts only winning 2 games. his and others speculations are correct and ether's are wrong.

no one is going to change their opinion. that's why i have stopped arguing this point. i will just wait to see what happens.

You are misrepresenting me. I never said that Manning will not be with the Colts.

[husker61]

You are misrepresenting me. I never said that Manning will not be with the Colts.

you have said he can't throw and costs too much money. exactly how do you see him with the colts?

[husker61]

You are misrepresenting me. I never said that Manning will not be with the Colts.

let me just call ^cowpatties^ on this!

you voted that he will not be with the colts next year.

Who voted for: No

T3KN3O, theblueplague, firejimcaldwell, UMLBB10, pacolts56, Flash777, ManningToCollie, presto123, Thewholefnshow28, LFly, colts8718, icf, ar1888, Jules, Andrew Luck12, Wyld1, auroboros, Fireman818, UndecidedFrog, luckoverpeyton, open window, Vance87, Mameluc, OZZ, IndyJoe, supremecoltsfan300, ColtsTexansFan, Frejsgodes, Casey, Balzer40, Daniel Young, braveheartcolt, Grav, EJ-Blue, RomanianColtsFan, kspmaint, eli4625, southwest1, OldManP, The Fish

[UndecidedFrog]

let me just call ^cowpatties^ on this!

you voted that he will not be with the colts next year.

Who voted for: No

T3KN3O, theblueplague, firejimcaldwell, UMLBB10, pacolts56, Flash777, ManningToCollie, presto123, Thewholefnshow28, LFly, colts8718, icf, ar1888, Jules, Andrew Luck12, Wyld1, auroboros, Fireman818, UndecidedFrog, luckoverpeyton, open window, Vance87, Mameluc, OZZ, IndyJoe, supremecoltsfan300, ColtsTexansFan, Frejsgodes, Casey, Balzer40, Daniel Young, braveheartcolt, Grav, EJ-Blue, RomanianColtsFan, kspmaint, eli4625, southwest1, OldManP, The Fish

Yes, I voted no, because I don't think he will be a Colt next year. That's an opinion. That's not a statement of fact. Unlike some others, I can differentiate between opinion and fact.

The poll question was: Do you think Peyton will be with the Colts?

[UndecidedFrog]

you have said he can't throw and costs too much money. exactly how do you see him with the colts?

I have said that there is no evidence yet that he can throw at his pre-injury form.

I have said that his current contract is very problematic for the Colts to carry.

Both those statements are still true today.

If PM can show that he is back to his pre-injury form, and if he can rework his current contract, then I can see him still a Colt.

[husker61]

Yes, I voted no, because I don't think he will be a Colt next year. That's an opinion. That's not a statement of fact. Unlike some others, I can differentiate between opinion and fact.

The poll question was: Do you think Peyton will be with the Colts?

when did i say you said it was a statement of fact on your part?

i said the facts (you use to back your theory) that manning won't be with the colts.

i know it's hard, but just admit that in your eagerness to make your point, you made an incorrect statement.

[ruksak]

You have portrayed these facts as sewage. They aren't. They are still facts. You can take that list of facts and try to counter them with inference that you are biased towards. However, the facts, without any inference, are still the facts.

You're wandering off the path. You attached a list of facts to a prior statement of mine, not the other way around.

I said "All of the sewage spilling from the infectious mouths of the media has caused people to second guess the greatest of all time". Unless you want to play the role of sports media integrity advocate, I have to say you're off-base by insinuating that I said these facts were sewage. Even though I showed the effort to make myself clear afterword by saying that it was the inferences attached to the facts that were afoul. Which in turn causes me to question everything they're saying.

Were we?

Apparently I made the tragic leap in logic that since we're talking about sports and we're also talking about the media, that we were indeed talking about sports media. I know, how crazy, right?

So when sports media write about how dismal Curtis Painter was as QB for the Colts last year, you would go opposite of this, and insist that Painter wasn't dismal as QB for the Colts?

No. I was talking about things which have not happened yet as opposed to your example of them talking about something that has already happened. I don't remember any sports media claiming that we were OK with Painter. Quite the opposite in fact.

If they had said he'd be terrible would I automatically have thought they were wrong due to the source? lol.....no. C'mon Frog. I use figurative humor on these boards. Obviously I was not being literal. That's obvious to you, correct? You are just being purposely obtuse, right?

Contemplation as opposed to conjecture? And what makes you think your contemplation is of any better quality than someone else's contemplation, which all result in conjecture? Please don't try to pass off your conjecture (based on contemplation) is of any better quality than other's conjecture (based on their contemplation).

Thats exactly what I'm doing.....and no, that's not me being funny. I trust my contemplation and opinion more than random talking heads. I have the same facts as them yet I come to a different conclusion. But I still trust my opinion over theirs, as it should be if one is confident.

Here are more facts (not sewage) from that precedent:

1) Weinke was a decade younger than PM when he had the neck surgery

2) Weinke had one surgery, and not multiple surgeries that PM had

3) It took Weinke 1 year to regain arm strength

Yea, those are facts. I suppose I could attach some "sewage" to those too. Or rather, I bet Adam Scheftner or Jason LaCanfora could.

Sorry to disagree. You said "I'm saying he's gonna do what he always does, win." PM does not always win. Sometimes, he loses. This is evidenced by the W-L record.

Again, bro your being purposely obtuse. You have to be, you're too smart for that. "Figurative humor". Of course I did not mean he always wins everytime, always.....c'mon man. This isn't a collegiate debate championship. It's a Colts fan forum where we should expect humor, sarcasm and friendly verbiage. Not exacting retorts designed to pass thorough review by our professor. Point being, Peyton is a winner. Would you like to debate that? That's all I meant. I really find it suspicious that I'm having to explain things so in depth to someone so smart?

Do not misrepresent me. I did not respond with any na-na-na-boo-boo.

I know. It was funny. I lol'd. Try it. Try to lol. Be cautious at first, you don't want to crack your firmly entrenched frowny face.

I don't think rebuttal is necessary to an obvious overstatement that "dark clouds do not follow" PM. It is an obvious example of hero-worship.

Let's not label each other, that too is a bit low-brow. I do not participate in hero worship. As an example, I only own one jersey. A Manning jersey I got for X-mas back in 06. Everyone that knows me knows I do not place players within hero status. Now, to what I said; "Dark clouds do not follow him" and "I'm saying he's gonna do what he always does, win". Yes, I'm a fan of Manning and I'm not ashamed to say it. Is that hero worship to stand by a particular player until he gives me due cause to deviate from my support for what I truly believe he is capable of?

I'm sorry if you thought I was being rude? I made a few jokes but they were meant to provoke a laugh, not to provoke insult. Please re-read any comment you thought was rude and understand I'm just trying to get a laugh outta you. Also understand that I'm the resident class clown here and if you want to converse with me, you must do so with a grin, not a chip on your shoulder.

I have certain facts which I have already shared, which you have portrayed as sewage.

No I did not. I explained this above, however. I said the media spews sewage, you attached my statement to your "fact" list after the fact.

I think you are letting your emotions run rampant, to the point that you become rude to those who do not share your fervor in hero-worship.

I'm pretty chill. Are you pretty chill?

I am.

What I am not, however, is a hero-worshiper.

I respect your indifference to the matter of Manning & his future with the Colts. I too tried to stay firm in that camp. The garbage (sewage...whatever) that has been peddled against him and his reputation has swayed me to making fun of the situation by espousing my firmly held beliefs.

Let's keep it light and not be so serious with this.

[The Fish]

As this is my 666 post, how about touching on how to achieve World Peace?

And is there really a salary cap heck?

[ruksak]

As this is my 666 post

[UndecidedFrog]

when did i say you said it was a statement of fact on your part?

i said the facts (you use to back your theory) that manning won't be with the colts.

i know it's hard, but just admit that in your eagerness to make your point, you made an incorrect statement.

You said that I voted that he will not be with the colts next year.

The truth is that I voted that I think he will not be with the Colts next year.

[UndecidedFrog]

Thats exactly what I'm doing.....and no, that's not me being funny. I trust my contemplation and opinion more than random talking heads. I have the same facts as them yet I come to a different conclusion. But I still trust my opinion over theirs, as it should be if one is confident.

I think it is a more mature stance to believe that while you may think your opinion is always better than others (otherwise you wouldn't have them), that you also realize that your opinion, at times, may also be proven very wrong.

Again, bro your being purposely obtuse. You have to be, you're too smart for that. "Figurative humor". Of course I did not mean he always wins everytime, always.....c'mon man. This isn't a collegiate debate championship. It's a Colts fan forum where we should expect humor, sarcasm and friendly verbiage. Not exacting retorts designed to pass thorough review by our professor. Point being, Peyton is a winner. Would you like to debate that? That's all I meant. I really find it suspicious that I'm having to explain things so in depth to someone so smart?

Oh, so when you said that...he always wins, you didn't really mean that......he always wins.

Sorry for not understanding you better. And here I was thinking you were just overstating the reality again.

Usually, I try to take people at their word. I guess I will need to alter that approach with you. ;)

I know. It was funny. I lol'd. Try it. Try to lol. Be cautious at first, you don't want to crack your firmly entrenched frowny face.

No, you should never attempt to misrepresent anyone. It isn't right, and it isn't honorable.

Let's not label each other, that too is a bit low-brow. I do not participate in hero worship. As an example, I only own one jersey. A Manning jersey I got for X-mas back in 06. Everyone that knows me knows I do not place players within hero status. Now, to what I said; "Dark clouds do not follow him" and "I'm saying he's gonna do what he always does, win". Yes, I'm a fan of Manning and I'm not ashamed to say it. Is that hero worship to stand by a particular player until he gives me due cause to deviate from my support for what I truly believe he is capable of?

Does his **** not stink?

Can he do no wrong?

I'm sorry if you thought I was being rude? I made a few jokes but they were meant to provoke a laugh, not to provoke insult. Please re-read any comment you thought was rude and understand I'm just trying to get a laugh outta you. Also understand that I'm the resident class clown here and if you want to converse with me, you must do so with a grin, not a chip on your shoulder.

Misrepresenting me is an insult.

I'm pretty chill. Are you pretty chill?

I am.

What I am not, however, is a hero-worshiper.

I respect your indifference to the matter of Manning & his future with the Colts. I too tried to stay firm in that camp. The garbage (sewage...whatever) that has been peddled against him and his reputation has swayed me to making fun of the situation by espousing my firmly held beliefs.

Let's keep it light and not be so serious with this.

I am trying to chill and keep it light. However, I dislike the insults.

I tend to disregard the garbage (sewage, whatever) that has been peddled both for and against him, and sways me to expose the unreliability of such conjectures (even though it may be based on your allegedly superior contemplation).

[manningstheman]

so when that doesn't happen, you are gonna be ok, right? Andrew Luck steps in, stumbles a bit in his first couple seasons, picks up his game and we keep rebuilding pieces around him to get us to be great again. You ready for that possibility?

sounds like you are not ready. at what point are you ready to let Manning go?

I that does happen, and it might, I am fine with that. I just hope Peyton doesnt come back to bite us.

[ruksak]

I think it is a more mature stance to believe that while you may think your opinion is always better than others (otherwise you wouldn't have them), that you also realize that your opinion, at times, may also be proven very wrong.

When I'm wrong, I always admit it. I'm not exactly heavily invested in this with real world money.

Oh, so when you said that...he always wins, you didn't really mean that......he always wins.

Sorry for not understanding you better. And here I was thinking you were just overstating the reality again.

Usually, I try to take people at their word. I guess I will need to alter that approach with you. ;)

The point is, you're pretending to not understand what a figure of speech is. I suppose if I said I'd bet a million dollars you wouldn't understand the figurative? Perhaps you would think I was really trying to bet $1 million dollars? lol.......stop, Frog. You're being ridiculous I have replied 3-4 times already trying to clarify a stinkin figure of speech. I will not do it again.

No, you should never attempt to misrepresent anyone. It isn't right, and it isn't honorable.

You really shouldn't take these boards so serious, bro. Relax a bit and have a laugh.

Does his **** not stink?

Can he do no wrong?

As far as I know Peyton is a perfect human being. Infallible and beyond our evolutionary scope. He is truly a higher species than you or I.

I am trying to chill and keep it light. However, I dislike the insults.

I tend to disregard the garbage (sewage, whatever) that has been peddled both for and against him, and sways me to expose the unreliability of such conjectures (even though it may be based on your allegedly superior contemplation).

If you were truly insulted by anything I said, than you need thicker skin, sir. This is made obvious by the fact that a moderator has not stepped in to warn me or edit my posts. Add to that that I already apologized if anything I said may have struck you the wrong way. Instead of choosing to hear that, you choose to ignore my apology and continue to insist that I have wronged you, or as ridiculous as it sounds, that I have dishonored you.

I'm just making light of a crappy situation, as is made evident by my siggy below. I am just having fun with a tense crowd. Not trying to troll or work people up.

Anywho....you can feel free to reply, but our back-n-forth exchange is muddying up this thread so I'll read your response but I will not respond (directly to you about these misunderstandings) due to obvious tensions.

I truly feel that Peyton isn't going anywhere. I truly feel that it is best for the horseshoe to retain him for at least 2 more years. I truly believe that throwing a rookie QB into a starting job can be well documented to bring all sorts of issues that can bother the career of said rookies....conditioning/injury, confidence etc.

[Jaric]

So not to be negative, but who cares what Chris Weinke thinks? Have I missed something here?

[UndecidedFrog]

The point is, you're pretending to not understand what a figure of speech is. I suppose if I said I'd bet a million dollars you wouldn't understand the figurative? Perhaps you would think I was really trying to bet $1 million dollars? lol.......stop, Frog. You're being ridiculous I have replied 3-4 times already trying to clarify a stinkin figure of speech. I will not do it again.

If you said you would bet a million dollars, one of the first things that would pop into my head would be...does he have a million dollars to bet?

You really shouldn't take these boards so serious, bro. Relax a bit and have a laugh.

That is good advice. You provide a good amount of material that I can laugh at.

As far as I know Peyton is a perfect human being. Infallible and beyond our evolutionary scope. He is truly a higher species than you or I.

LOL, and what is the definition of hero-worship?

If you were truly insulted by anything I said, than you need thicker skin, sir. This is made obvious by the fact that a moderator has not stepped in to warn me or edit my posts. Add to that that I already apologized if anything I said may have struck you the wrong way. Instead of choosing to hear that, you choose to ignore my apology and continue to insist that I have wronged you, or as ridiculous as it sounds, that I have dishonored you.

I'm just making light of a crappy situation, as is made evident by my siggy below. I am just having fun with a tense crowd. Not trying to troll or work people up.

Anywho....you can feel free to reply, but our back-n-forth exchange is muddying up this thread so I'll read your response but I will not respond (directly to you about these misunderstandings) due to obvious tensions.

No problems. BTW, I do accept your apology.

I truly feel that Peyton isn't going anywhere. I truly feel that it is best for the horseshoe to retain him for at least 2 more years. I truly believe that throwing a rookie QB into a starting job can be well documented to bring all sorts of issues that can bother the career of said rookies....conditioning/injury, confidence etc.

I truly feel that it is in the best interest of the horseshoe to start Luck, as they started PM back in 1998. I think Luck is more NFL ready than you think. Sure there will be bumps along the way, but the fastest learning curve (even though it is also the steepest) is to experience actual game play right away for a QB. PM, and Luck had/have what it took/takes to climb that learning curve ASAP.