Already tired of Pagano

[colts2dasuperbowl]

On 8/25/2017 at 8:23 PM, J@son said:

 

Nah, Luck needs Gary Kubiak. That combination would be lethal. 

Yes Gary would work too if he's healthy

[colts2dasuperbowl]

On 8/26/2017 at 6:08 AM, Peterk2011 said:

 

Jon Gruden? Really? You want a carreer 0.500 coach, who won a ring with Dungy-s team, and done nothing other than that? The guy has never built his own team. Never. Not counting that SB year, he was a below 0.500 carreer coach. And he coached capable rosters.... And this guy's been a media darling for the last decade, instead of being and working in football locker rooms. His knowledge of the game may be 10+ years behind.

 

You want THIS guy over Pagano, who is a 49-31 coach, who built his own team and went to the AFC final with HIS OWN team, just to see his team to be plagued by injuries and lack of talent infusion in the next 2 years, but still finish at 0.500? I'm not defending Pagano, but questioning you are being serious. ;)

 

(Harbaugh is a different animal, but he won't leave his alma mater any soon.)

Gruden can coach. He can't build a team, but he can coach well built team. He won SB with Brad "the Noodle Arm" Johnson and Dungy's defense. =)

And When you see him on TV coaching up Rookie QBs, you know he still knows what he's talking about. This guy thinks and talks like Peyton Manning. He is not my first choice of coach, but my point was we need a HC that knows offense and knows how to work his QB.

[BR-549]

On 8/25/2017 at 11:23 PM, J@son said:

 

Nah, Luck needs Gary Kubiak. That combination would be lethal. 

I like Gary... I would be cool with that and it makes sense.

 

Plus I like hearing Al Michaels say "Gary Kooubiyak"....kinda hard to mimic with type.  You have to imagine a full pressurized sinus cavity or pinched nose while saying it maybe. 

[Surge89]

On 8/27/2017 at 0:20 PM, Superman said:

 

This is all good stuff. Luck is actually perfect for the Coryell offense, from his ability to extend plays while routes open up to his toughness to stand in a noisy pocket (or none at all) and still deliver accurately down field, and of course he has the arm strength to make the throws even from a compromised platform (remember the 40 yard TD pass against the Bengals where Luck is getting tripped, but still hits Moncrief perfectly over the shoulder in the end zone?)

 

To me, that's part of the problem. His coaches know that he excels at it, and they begin to rely on his ability to bail out the offense with these ridiculous plays that he makes. And he's been doing it since he was a rookie, when he was the most effective downfield passer in the league, with a terrible OL. 

 

I don't think the issue is that the coaches don't utilize his strengths; they overutilize them, IMO. The issue is that they don't minimize the weaknesses of the most challenged part of the offensive roster, the OL. I don't want to dink and dunk all day, essentially neutering Luck's playmaking ability, but I am willing to sacrifice some explosiveness for the sake of efficiency, as it will take pressure off of the OL and reduce the number of hits Luck takes.

 

Doing so would also spread the field horizontally, stressing the defense in another dimension. That opens up the run game -- if we're ever able to run block consistently against a 6 man front -- and it might lead to the defense compromising their deep coverage, in which case they get roasted by one of the best deep passers in the league. 

 

There are other things we can do to take pressure off of the OL, like bootlegs and designed rollouts, which take advantage of Luck's ability to run and promote quick half field reads. When the defensive front has to contain to the outside, they can't come up the field as aggressively. The Luck to Gore play against the Titans took advantage of that principle in a different way, but it's the same concept -- when you move the QB or engage in effective misdirection, the pass rush slows down significantly. 

 

You also make a good point that the game plan installation is influenced by that week's starting QB, so the Luck gameplan will be different from the Hasselbeck or Tolzien gameplan, and that's reasonable. But at the same time, the OC has to be the one to stress the core concepts of his offense. Chud's philosophy is congruent with Luck's mentality, so there's no one in that install meeting saying 'we need to make sure we get the ball out quickly so the QB doesn't get battered.' 

 

And then there's the technical stuff that's not on the QB: execution on screen plays, cutting the edge on slants (Luck gets a ton of short passes tipped by DL, and doesn't throw several more because of not having clear throwing lanes), etc. That's on the coaching staff, from the OC (who is the deputy general of the offense) to the position coaches, to correct, but we've had these issues since 2012. At least Chud is calling a lot of screens right now; even though we seem to get penalized every time, hopefully the staff is stressing the corrections so they'll finally get it fixed.

 

I'll just say this.  Reading this and seeing the current Indy offense reminds me almost exactly of the Steelers offense from 07-11.  Arians was loved in Pitt but the best thing that org ever did for Ben was get him Todd Haley.  Haley can get to cute for his own britches sometimes but at least he believes in giving his a receivers some YAC instead of all on Ben's arm. 

 

As far as in relation to coaching...  I actually don't believe its a Chud lead issue... he is "a part" of it.  I think the issue is Arians molded Luck his rookie year and now Luck feels most comfortable in the type of vert system Arian's uses.  So Pagano encourages that system to dominate the plays called by his OC.  All Chud has to do is incorporate about 30% of  what he had had in Carolina in this offense and we could be a juggernaut. The part I don't understand is... Cam and Luck are basically the same freaking player.  So why is it that Chud is approaching this so vastly different? 

 

But hey... that is just half of our problems lol. 

[Superman]

3 minutes ago, Surge89 said:

 

I'll just say this.  Reading this and seeing the current Indy offense reminds me almost exactly of the Steelers offense from 07-11.  Arians was loved in Pitt but the best thing that org ever did for Ben was get him Todd Haley.  Haley can get to cute for his own britches sometimes but at least he believes in giving his a receivers some YAC instead of all on Ben's arm. 

 

As far as in relation to coaching...  I actually don't believe its a Chud lead issue... he is "a part" of it.  I think the issue is Arians molded Luck his rookie year and now Luck feels most comfortable in the type of vert system Arian's uses.  So Pagano encourages that system to dominate the plays called by his OC.  All Chud has to do is incorporate about 30% of  what he had had in Carolina in this offense and we could be a juggernaut. The part I don't understand is... Cam and Luck are basically the same freaking player.  So why is it that Chud is approaching this so vastly different? 

 

But hey... that is just half of our problems lol. 

 

It's the same fundamental offense the Steelers ran under Arians. I think we can do better than Todd Haley, but I agree, I want Luck to have a coordinator who helps him adapt his game so that he can continue to develop as a passer.

 

I think this starts with Pagano. The one and only OC he considered in 2012 was Arians. Then the organization made the collective decision to replace Arians with Pep, without interviewing anyone else (that we know of). The next year, Pagano adds Chud to his staff, in an undefined role, then replaced Pep with Chud in 2015. He also hired Brian Schottenheimer as the new QB coach (replacing Christensen, a holdover). Arians, Chud, Schottenheimer... three of the four coaches Pagano has specifically placed most closely to Luck have been Coryell disciples, and the other guy was probably not fully a Pagano decision.

 

Luck does everything the Coryell offense needs a QB to do, and he does it well. But I think he's perfectly capable of running other offenses, and I don't think he'd be resistant to changes. He ran a completely different offense in college.

 

Cam and Luck aren't the same player. Luck is so much more advanced as a passer that it's not even worthy of discussion. And the Colts won't allow any coach to turn Luck into a hybrid RB like the Panthers did with Cam early on. Also, Cam holds the ball almost as long as Luck and gets sacked just as much. What was good about the Panthers offense is they had a multiple rushing attack that no one could stop, partly because of Cam. We're not going to do that with Luck.

[DaColts85]

3 minutes ago, Superman said:

It's the same fundamental offense the Steelers ran under Arians. I think we can do better than Todd Haley, but I agree, I want Luck to have a coordinator who helps him adapt his game so that he can continue to develop as a passer.

 

I think this starts with Pagano. The one and only OC he considered in 2012 was Arians. Then the organization made the collective decision to replace Arians with Pep, without interviewing anyone else (that we know of). The next year, Pagano adds Chud to his staff, in an undefined role, then replaced Pep with Chud in 2015. He also hired Brian Schottenheimer as the new QB coach (replacing Christensen, a holdover). Arians, Chud, Schottenheimer... three of the four coaches Pagano has specifically placed most closely to Luck have been Coryell disciples, and the other guy was probably not fully a Pagano decision.

 

Luck does everything the Coryell offense needs a QB to do, and he does it well. But I think he's perfectly capable of running other offenses, and I don't think he'd be resistant to changes. He ran a completely different offense in college.

Not to intrude...but I would also say that this offense fits Luck and if we started to push the temp and play more hurry-up offense I think the points would translate well.  We start a hurry up and typically produce but the coaches (Pags and Chud) usually kill it pretty quick.  If we tried to stay uptempo, Manning days, Luck would produce at a larger level IMO, and it would translate into better runs IMO.  We just have to have a solid line that can also stay on the field and in a stance for like 15 to 20 seconds in some cases.  The Line is still a weakness...not to get to far in the weeds.

[Surge89]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

It's the same fundamental offense the Steelers ran under Arians. I think we can do better than Todd Haley, but I agree, I want Luck to have a coordinator who helps him adapt his game so that he can continue to develop as a passer.

 

I think this starts with Pagano. The one and only OC he considered in 2012 was Arians. Then the organization made the collective decision to replace Arians with Pep, without interviewing anyone else (that we know of). The next year, Pagano adds Chud to his staff, in an undefined role, then replaced Pep with Chud in 2015. He also hired Brian Schottenheimer as the new QB coach (replacing Christensen, a holdover). Arians, Chud, Schottenheimer... three of the four coaches Pagano has specifically placed most closely to Luck have been Coryell disciples, and the other guy was probably not fully a Pagano decision.

 

Luck does everything the Coryell offense needs a QB to do, and he does it well. But I think he's perfectly capable of running other offenses, and I don't think he'd be resistant to changes. He ran a completely different offense in college.

 

Cam and Luck aren't the same player. Luck is so much more advanced as a passer that it's not even worthy of discussion. And the Colts won't allow any coach to turn Luck into a hybrid RB like the Panthers did with Cam early on. Also, Cam holds the ball almost as long as Luck and gets sacked just as much. What was good about the Panthers offense is they had a multiple rushing attack that no one could stop, partly because of Cam. We're not going to do that with Luck.

 

I'm not saying he is resistant to change.  I just think Pagano doesn't want the QB position to change as he believes Luck is comfortable with what he's been in since his rookie year.  Which I don't agree with, but all the signs point to. 

 

Cam and Luck are definitely alike... Same size, same ability, same arm strength.  Now they play the game vastly different I agree.  Cam is a run first and even more inaccurate than Luck.  And Luck is a much more polished and mature thrower. And the 30% I'm talking about isn't the QB runner/flex thing (the other 70% of their offense).  I'm referencing more of the double TE hitch routes or fake screen and sluggo plays that Chud used to call with Cam.  Easy efficient throws that could get drives started, and what made it so hard to stop their run game.  

 

Like you I'm happy to see screens actually being called and the oline actually looking like they know what they are doing when they are called.  So that is encouraging. 

[crazycolt1]

3 hours ago, colts2dasuperbowl said:

I dont know...may be money?

 

Heck, he is more than likely making pro money right there at Michigan. It has already been established Harbaugh really don't get along with management over his head. That is what lead him to leaving the 49ers. He tried to run a pro team like he would a collage team. It don't work. He is already rich, has his dream job, can control every facet of his team including his own recruiting class and has nobody to tell him what to do. IMO he is a collage coach, not a NFL coach.

[crazycolt1]

3 hours ago, colts2dasuperbowl said:

Gruden can coach. He can't build a team, but he can coach well built team. He won SB with Brad "the Noodle Arm" Johnson and Dungy's defense. =)

And When you see him on TV coaching up Rookie QBs, you know he still knows what he's talking about. This guy thinks and talks like Peyton Manning. He is not my first choice of coach, but my point was we need a HC that knows offense and knows how to work his QB.

Gruden beat a team he knew inside out in the super bowl. He was the head coach the year before. Gruden does not know how to let a QB grow. He replaces them like underwear. You will find very few players that has played for him have anything positive to say about him. There is a reason he coached for 4 different teams in 8 years and none of them are good. IMO he is one of the most over rated coaches around.

[NewColtsFan]

4 hours ago, Superman said:

 

It's the same fundamental offense the Steelers ran under Arians. I think we can do better than Todd Haley, but I agree, I want Luck to have a coordinator who helps him adapt his game so that he can continue to develop as a passer.

 

I think this starts with Pagano. The one and only OC he considered in 2012 was Arians. Then the organization made the collective decision to replace Arians with Pep, without interviewing anyone else (that we know of). The next year, Pagano adds Chud to his staff, in an undefined role, then replaced Pep with Chud in 2015. He also hired Brian Schottenheimer as the new QB coach (replacing Christensen, a holdover). Arians, Chud, Schottenheimer... three of the four coaches Pagano has specifically placed most closely to Luck have been Coryell disciples, and the other guy was probably not fully a Pagano decision.

 

Luck does everything the Coryell offense needs a QB to do, and he does it well. But I think he's perfectly capable of running other offenses, and I don't think he'd be resistant to changes. He ran a completely different offense in college.

 

Cam and Luck aren't the same player. Luck is so much more advanced as a passer that it's not even worthy of discussion. And the Colts won't allow any coach to turn Luck into a hybrid RB like the Panthers did with Cam early on. Also, Cam holds the ball almost as long as Luck and gets sacked just as much. What was good about the Panthers offense is they had a multiple rushing attack that no one could stop, partly because of Cam. We're not going to do that with Luck.

 

Not to start something AGAIN.....

 

But isn't Haley more of what you're looking for?

 

The Steelers fired Arians for Haley.    To convert the Pittsburgh offense into something shorter and more quick striking and protect Roethisberger.    

 

Ben is better under Haley.

 

Brown was a 6th round pick who is now one of the top-3 WR's in the game, if not the best.

 

Bell was a 2nd round pick who is now the best RB in the game.

 

Isn't Haley maximizing talent?

 

What's wrong with him?

 

And if he's not good enough,  WHO IS?

 

Aren't the best OC's either going to be sticking with their current teams,  why would they leave for a lateral move,  or in line to become an HC?

 

How are we going to get a better OC that meets your requirements (whatever they are?)

 

 

 

[Superman]

8 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Not to start something AGAIN.....

 

But isn't Haley more of what you're looking for?

 

The Steelers fired Arians for Haley.    To convert the Pittsburgh offense into something shorter and more quick striking and protect Roethisberger.    

 

Ben is better under Haley.

 

Brown was a 6th round pick who is now one of the top-3 WR's in the game, if not the best.

 

Bell was a 2nd round pick who is now the best RB in the game.

 

Isn't Haley maximizing talent?

 

What's wrong with him?

 

And if he's not good enough,  WHO IS?

 

Aren't the best OC's either going to be sticking with their current teams,  why would they leave for a lateral move,  or in line to become an HC?

 

How are we going to get a better OC that meets your requirements (whatever they are?)

 

That wasn't a shot at Todd Haley. I see why it might have come across that way, I could have phrased that more elegantly, but that wasn't really the point so I didn't give it that much thought. Todd Haley is a good coordinator, I like the changes he made to the Steelers offense. I think sometimes his offense is a little too cute, and anyone's gameplans can be nitpicked from week to week, but he's done a good job for the most part.

 

I don't think he's the best coordinator in the world, so technically, yeah, I think we could do better than him. But I didn't mean to insinuate that he's inadequate.

 

If we were to hire a new OC, whatever the circumstances, we'd likely either be hiring someone from a recently dismissed staff, or a first time guy. 

[NewColtsFan]

1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

That wasn't a shot at Todd Haley. I see why it might have come across that way, I could have phrased that more elegantly, but that wasn't really the point so I didn't give it that much thought. Todd Haley is a good coordinator, I like the changes he made to the Steelers offense. I think sometimes his offense is a little too cute, and anyone's gameplans can be nitpicked from week to week, but he's done a good job for the most part.

 

I don't think he's the best coordinator in the world, so technically, yeah, I think we could do better than him. But I didn't mean to insinuate that he's inadequate.

 

If we were to hire a new OC, whatever the circumstances, we'd likely either be hiring someone from a recently dismissed staff, or a first time guy. 

 

Fair enough,  thanks....

 

I didn't mean to jump on you like that....    I appreciate your response....

 

And I've been meaning to respond to your last post to me...     I didn't get a chance at first,  and I can't find it at the moment.

 

When I do,   I'll likely respond privately.     I think we've beaten most of the OC conversations to death.....   no need for more....    at least not,  publicly.....

 

Thanks again....

 

 

[ThorstenDenmark]

Do you know, what word Chuck Pagano used the most during his post game presser? If you know, you know ;)

 

If you dont know, well... I'll give you some help.

 

It's not... thats was all on me, thats was bad coaching, you know.

Neither is it... we dominated them all day long, you know.

It could have been, I didn't do a good job of preparing the team before the game, you know.

 

Chucks new favorite word is... well I hope you know it by now ;) 

 

(in 6 minuted, he used the phrase you know... nearly 60 times... the only problem is, he don't know s h i t about football, you know.)