2017-2018 Indiana Pacers and Everything NBA Thread

[crazycolt1]

2 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

In my mind, you have judge guys like Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Wilt , Oscar Robertson and Bob Pettit not in the context of what they do today...but in line with what they did against teams designing ways to stop them in an era of 3-games-in-3 nights.

 

Teams occasionally had 3 players guard Wilt and let everybody else shoot

Elgin Baylor was barely 6-foot-5 but his ability to hang in the air would have made him potent even today...

..and you couildnt get ther ball away from Oscar..he was like Chris Paul only much bigger

Throw in Pistol Pete............ lol see what I mean? The list goes on and on.

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

Shaquille O'Neal in his 20s was a man among boys as well..

BIg and fast and loved to run the court........theres no one like him now

 

Folks say Dr. J doesn't belong among the all-time best (Top-25) because they saw the NBA version of Dr. J.

In the ABA, he flew like Jordan again playing 3 gams in 3 or 4  nights

I have Doc in my Top 20 even just going by NBA. In the ABA he was arguably Top 3 ever.

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, oldunclemark said:

Artis Gilmore.....Dan Issel....the ABA had some stars

Moses Malone wasn't bad either.

[Trueman]

11 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

Wilt Chamberlian is the standard by what all centers must be judged..

His scoring numbers have never been approached even in the 3-point era.

..and he played 48 minutes a game for a year more than once..

The game has changed but time hasn't...48 minutes is 48 minutes...

 

He gets diminished cause you cant watch most of his best years and he's not around to talk about himself...(and he would have)

 

hah , he was far ahead of his time. But if you look at the guys guarding him, it’s hard to take those stats seriously.

 

If you put prime Shaq in that era, you’d see the exact same thing.

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Throw in Pistol Pete............ lol see what I mean? The list goes on and on.

I always say he was the 2nd greatest College Basketball ever only behind Lew Alcindor(Kareem). In college he made guys look like fools  

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I have Doc in my Top 20 even just going by NBA. In the ABA he was arguably Top 3 ever.

Doc J was maybe the best ball handler I can recall. He was a wizard with the basketball.

[RockThatBlue]

2 hours ago, jshipp23 said:

I think we can beat anybody except Cleveland...

I think we could beat Cleveland. Is it likely? Maybe not. But this Cleveland team might be one of the weakest teams LeBron has been on in a while. Pacers could possibly take them to 6 or 7 games.

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, Trueman said:

 

hah , he was far ahead of his time. But if you look at the guys guarding him, it’s hard to take those stats seriously.

 

If you put prime Shaq in that era, you’d see the exact same thing.

To me LeBron may be the greatest athlete that has ever put on an NBA uniform and he is a Top 10 player without question, Top 2 is stretching though, JMO. He's the best player today, I have no problem saying that and has been for a while.

[oldunclemark]

  .......Its hard to seperate my favorites from the best..

I grew up on the 1970s Chicago Bulls

With center Tom Boerwinkle forwards Bob Love, Chet 'The Jet" Walker, Jerry Sloan and Norm Van Lier..

 

None were the greatest of all time....and they are hardly remembered today...

the first great Bulls' team (the franchise only began in the 60s) playing in the old 'Chicago Stadium,'

 

They never won it all but they set the franchise table for what was to come

[Trueman]

11 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I agree but a lot of people don't factor in ABA play when doing these lists. Reason why I always say LeBron is Top 10 because there have been like a million players. Anyone younger than 40 would probably put LeBron #2 but he wasn't better than Magic IMO. Magic had better court presence and was a better leader, etc.. I just know by watching. I would take Shaq in his prime over LeBron for example as well. Shaq won 3 straight Finals MVP's and averaged like 40 a game in the Finals in those 3 seasons.

 

He’s better than Magic.

 

Quicker, faster, stronger, better shooter, , way more vertical, far better scorer , almost even passing , a thousand times better defensively and on and on.

 

I’d take Bird over Magic if I’m honest.

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I always say he was the 2nd greatest College Basketball ever only behind Lew Alcindor(Kareem). In college he made guys look like fools  

Before he started having feet problems Bill Walton was a fantastic player also.

[oldunclemark]

3 minutes ago, Trueman said:

 

hah , he was far ahead of his time. But if you look at the guys guarding him, it’s hard to take those stats seriously.

 

If you put prime Shaq in that era, you’d see the exact same thing.

/./and while that's true.....does that mean that you cant judge scoring in the pre- and post 3-point era?

..and in the era before there were 'illegal defenses'  

 

Wilt scored 50 a game one year. Nobody in the history of the sport has ever scored more than 40 a game.

You are right but think about it..is Steph Curry really better than any shooter who played before the 3-line was put in .

Or does he just score more points than them?

[Trueman]

Just now, crazycolt1 said:

Before he started having feet problems Bill Walton was a fantastic player also.

 

Bill Walton for a 2-3 year stretch was one of the best centers ever.

 

Injuries and his somewhat odd personality gets him lost in the shuffle. 

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, Trueman said:

 

He’s better than Magic.

 

Quicker, faster, stronger, better shooter, , way more vertical, far better scorer , almost even passing , a thousand times better defensively and on and on.

 

I’d take Bird over Magic if I’m honest.

Bird was one of the best shooters in history but he was also one of the games smartest player ever.

[oldunclemark]

Bird vs. Magic..the debate never ends!

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, Trueman said:

 

He’s better than Magic.

 

Quicker, faster, stronger, better shooter, , way more vertical, far better scorer , almost even passing , a thousand times better defensively and on and on.

 

I’d take Bird over Magic if I’m honest.

LeBron is the better athlete over Magic but wasn't smarter and Magic was more clutch.

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, oldunclemark said:

Bird vs. Magic..the debate never ends!

Nor should it.

[RockThatBlue]

13 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

Shaquille O'Neal in his 20s was a man among boys as well..

BIg and fast and loved to run the court........theres no one like him now

If there is an NBA player like him today its Cousins IMO. Hes just about as dominant as Shaq was but hes mostly been on terrible teams so its not been noticed as much. 

[Trueman]

Just now, oldunclemark said:

/./and while that's true.....does that mean that you cant judge scoring in the pre- and post 3-point era?

..and in the era before there were 'illegal defenses'  

 

Wilt scored 50 a game one year. Nobody in the history of the sport has ever scored more than 40 a game.

You are right but think about it..is Steph Curry really better than any shooter who played before the 3-line was put in .

Or does he just score more points than them?

 

The NBA really didn’t reach comparable levels until the 80’s and after the ABA merger. Once money and just the natural evolution of the sport reached its pinnacle.

 

Really , the NBA should new divided into two sections everything that led up to the 80’s and everything after.

 

The athleticism/skill we see today dwarfs anything pre 80’s.

 

Great players probably transcend era’s , but the average player in the 60’s would get crushed by today’s player.

 

 

 

[oldunclemark]

12 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I have Doc in my Top 20 even just going by NBA. In the ABA he was arguably Top 3 ever.

I know you know.....In those days,,only the ABA playoffs were on TV..everything else was just highlights.....

...His hands were so big (I guess they probably still are) that he passes the ball like a baseball...

His mid-air passes were unstoppable because he wasin the air longer than you were

 

..and he could dunk on anyone because his arms were so long...

[oldunclemark]

3 minutes ago, RockThatBlue said:

If there is an NBA player like him today its Cousins IMO. Hes just about as dominant as Shaq was but hes mostly been on terrible teams so its not been noticed as much. 

I dont love him because he's somewhat of a punk..but Embid could be like Shaq if he ever got healthy and totally in shape... (and cut his hair)

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, RockThatBlue said:

If there is an NBA player like him today its Cousins IMO. Hes just about as dominant as Shaq was but hes mostly been on terrible teams so its not been noticed as much. 

Cousins is Great but Shaq was so dominant he could take a doormat and make them a Playoff team. Orlando stunk when they drafted him going 21-61 and in Shaq's 1st season Orlando went 41-41.

[oldunclemark]

2 minutes ago, Trueman said:

 

The NBA really didn’t reach comparable levels until the 80’s and after the ABA merger. Once money and just the natural evolution of the sport reached its pinnacle.

 

Really , the NBA should new divided into two sections everything that led up to the 80’s and everything after.

 

The athleticism/skill we see today dwarfs anything pre 80’s.

 

Great players probably transcend era’s , but the average player in the 60’s would get crushed by today’s player.

 

 

 

Maybe./   But more than time changed

Can we assume that the training techniques and nutrition improvements of the presnt day would be applied to those 'average' 60s players.

Can we let those 'average 60s players' get 3 points for a 22 footer", not get hand-checked and take 3 steps without traveling?

 

Its much easier to play today..

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

I know you know.....In those days,,only the ABA playoffs were on TV..everything else was just highlights.....

...His hands were so big (I guess they probably still are) that he passes the ball like a baseball...

His mid-air passes were unstoppable because he wasin the air longer than you were

 

..and he could dunk on anyone because his arms were so long...

I wasn't old enough to remember the ABA because it ended in 1976. I started watching shortly after but I have seen a lot of video on Doc in the ABA on youtube and on NBATV. Great stuff.

[Trueman]

4 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

LeBron is the better athlete over Magic but wasn't smarter and Magic was more clutch.

 

Hah , different teams and era’s man. “More clutch” is getting into Skip Bayless territory.

 

Magic joined  a team with Kareem and a historically successful franchise.

 

Lebron joined the always crappy Cavs with Ilgauskas.

 

Lakers>>> Cavs

Kareem>>> Ilgaukas

Pat Riley>>> Paul Silas

 

file

[oldunclemark]

I agree with you about Skippy..

 

'More clutch'; is who he likes...That's why LeBron isn't clutch to him, despite what the stats show

[2006Coltsbestever]

6 minutes ago, Trueman said:

 

The NBA really didn’t reach comparable levels until the 80’s and after the ABA merger. Once money and just the natural evolution of the sport reached its pinnacle.

 

Really , the NBA should new divided into two sections everything that led up to the 80’s and everything after.

 

The athleticism/skill we see today dwarfs anything pre 80’s.

 

Great players probably transcend era’s , but the average player in the 60’s would get crushed by today’s player.

 

 

 

Yeah to me the 80's ruled, it not only had great teams but the athlete's got so much better as a whole. Maybe I am biased toward the 80's because that is what I grew up with as a kid but I think a team like the Lakers in the 80's could smoke any team today except maybe the Warriors. I still think they would take the Warriors in a tough 7 game series though. LeBron's best team was the 2013 Heat IMO, they won 27 straight games that season. Went 66-16 with Wade and Bosh along for the ride. That team wasn't as Great as the 80's Lakers or 90's Bulls though IMO.

[Trueman]

1 minute ago, oldunclemark said:

Maybe./   But more than time changed

Can we assume that the training techniques and nutrition improvements of the presnt day would be applied to those 'average' 60s players.

Can we let those 'average 60s players' get 3 points for a 22 footer", not get hand-checked and take 3 steps without traveling?

 

Its much easier to play today..

 

Yeah , we can. Watch a game from the 60’s sometime , and tell me the average players on the court could handle modern players if they had similar training/nutrition. There’s no way.

 

We have 7 footers freak athletes playing small forward right now , who can handle the ball , dunk from the free throw line and pull up from anywhere.

 

There was 6’ 3” white dudes playing center back then.

 

There’s just no way,

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 minutes ago, Trueman said:

 

Hah , different teams and era’s man. “More clutch” is getting into Skip Bayless territory.

 

Magic joined  a team with Kareem and a historically successful franchise.

 

Lebron joined the always crappy Cavs with Ilgauskas.

 

Lakers>>> Cavs

Kareem>>> Ilgaukas

Pat Riley>>> Paul Silas

 

file

Magic won the MVP of the Finals his Rookie season while Kareem sat out at Philly/Doc/Dawkins/Cheeks, etc.. Magic also beat Bird twice in the Finals, once with a last second shot in the Garden. Magic was Ice Clutch.

[Trueman]

 

8 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

I agree with you about Skippy..

 

'More clutch'; is who he likes...That's why LeBron isn't clutch to him, despite what the stats show

 

He hates on Lebron because he knows it drives ratings , and I think he’s a bit of a sociopath.

 

Same thing with him saying Manziel would be bigger in Cleveland than Lebron , or Tim Tebow is a good QB , or RG3>Luck.

 

He’s either a *, or he sold his soul for ratings.

[oldunclemark]

13 minutes ago, Trueman said:

 

Yeah , we can. Watch a game from the 60’s sometime , and tell me the average players on the court could handle modern players if they had similar training/nutrition. There’s no way.

 

We have 7 footers freak athletes playing small forward right now , who can handle the ball , dunk from the free throw line and pull up from anywhere.

 

There was 6’ 3” white dudes playing center back then.

 

There’s just no way,

I was alive in the 60s.....

......Basketball players didnt weight train then...football players didnt

..and they ate whatever they had and grabbed a smoke after the games..

..and you didnt get 3 steps on the dribble.

...And there were also 6-foot-8 centers....There were tall people before 1980.

 

..and the 'average' player then was fundamentally sound because they'd played four years in college...

.....Obvioulsy...we DO have freak athletes now but you said 'average players' 

 

[Trueman]

6 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Magic won the MVP of the Finals his Rookie season while Kareem sat out at Philly/Doc/Dawkins/Cheeks, etc.. Magic also beat Bird twice in the Finals, once with a last second shot in the Garden. Magic was Ice Clutch.

 

In game 6 , yeah. Kareem played the rest of those finals. 

 

We’re talking like Basketball isn’t a team sport here. The Lakers were LOADED in the 80’s.

 

For the record , I think Magic is better than Kareem anyways.

[oldunclemark]

1 minute ago, Trueman said:

 

 

He hates on Lebron because he knows it drives ratings , and I think he’s a bit of a sociopath.

 

Same thing with him saying Manziel would be bigger in Cleveland than Lebron , or Tim Tebow is a good QB , or RG3>Luck.

 

He’s either a *, or he sold his soul for ratings.

I think its the latter......He's a writer who long ago realized that you can argue anything from both sides of an issue...

 

Yeah, he said Jay Cutler was just misunderstood..

[Trueman]

8 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

I was alive in the 60s.....

......Basketball players didnt weight train then...football players didnt

..and they ate whatever they had and grabbed a smoke after the games..

..and you dont get 3 steps on the dribble.

...And there were also 6-foot-8 centers....There were tall people before 1980.

 

..and the 'average' player then was fundamentally sound because they'd played four years in college...

.....Obvioulsy...we DO have freak athletes now but you said 'average players' 

 

 

 

Yeah, that’s fine. It doesn’t change anything.

 

Everyone is always so protective of their era.

 

Maybe you’ll listen to Steve Kerr :

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JXXPhHdxNX8

[oldunclemark]

6 minutes ago, Trueman said:

 

 

Yeah, that’s fine. It doesn’t change anything.

 

Everyone is always so protective of their era.

 

Maybe you’ll listen to Steve Kerr :

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JXXPhHdxNX8

That's not really a direct parallel to what we're discussing.

 

My point is that that the 6-foot-3 non-athletic guys (tall for that era) of that era wouldn't be non-athletic 6-foot-3 guys growing up now..

Assuming those same folks grew up in this era and played with todays rules, with all of todays training, education and nutrition,  they would be competitive..

You cant just transport folks through time...you have to allow for the way everything has changed, it you understand what I'm saying.

 

Trust me. There were tall people 50 years ago

 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

I cant stand Skip Bayless but for the record being Clutch in big games is very important when ranking players. I have seen Magic come up big time after time, same for Bird and Jordan with last second shots. LeBron on the other hand, MEH - It's rare late in Playoff games. Not hating but it's fact. Ray Allen saved him in the 2013 Finals and that was the best team he was ever on. Kyrie made the game winning shot for the Cavs too in 2016 at GS.

[Trueman]

18 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

That's not really next to what we're discussing.

 

My point is that that the 6-foot-3 non-athletic guys (tall for that era) of that era wouldn't be non-athletic 6-foot-3 guys now..

Assuming those game folks grew up in this era and played with todays rules, they would be competitive..

You cant just transport folks through time...you have to allow for the way everything has changed, it you understand what I'm saying

 

 

 

That’s exactly what we’re talking about.  Those non-athletic dudes wouldn’t be in the league , no matter what kind of nutrition or training they got. Hell, point guards are that height now.

 

Basketball is a 1000 miles away from that era. It’s just the truth.

 

If you want to say great players from that era could play today , fine , I can get on board with that to an extent. 

 

Maybe 50-60 years from now, people will look at this era and laugh at it.

 

Basketball was in its infancy back then and the talent pool was beyond shallow in comparison to today (and the money) , it’s a global game now . So I highly doubt there’ll ever be a discrepancy like there is from the 60’s to the modern game. But , you never know.

 

I’m not saying people are “better” today , we still all start from the same clay, but it still doesn’t change the fact Basketball as a sport and it’s players are far better now.

 

 

 

 

[Trueman]

11 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I cant stand Skip Bayless but for the record being Clutch in big games is very important when ranking players. I have seen Magic come up big time after time, same for Bird and Jordan with last second shots. LeBron on the other hand, MEH - It's rare late in Playoff games. Not hating but it's fact. Ray Allen saved him in the 2013 Finals and that was the best team he was ever on. Kyrie made the game winning shot for the Cavs too in 2016 at GS.

 

It’s just his arbitrary way of discrediting players he doesn’t like. “The clutch gene” is something you can’t destroy with logic because it’s his set of rules.

 

By the way, if you look at Lebron’s crunch time stats , he destroys Kobe.

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 minutes ago, Trueman said:

 

It’s just his arbitrary way of discrediting players he doesn’t like. “The clutch gene” is something you can’t destroy with logic because it’s his set of rules.

 

By the way, if you look at Lebron’s crunch time stats , he destroys Kobe.

I believe that statistically because Kobe has missed a lot of last second shots (he takes more than LeBron) but in 2010 Kobe had 7 game winning shots believe it or not.

[2006Coltsbestever]

I think had Kobe retired after the 2010 Season he would be looked at as even greater. After winning back to back Titles and getting #5. Because the Lakers stunk his last few years and he was injured it wasn't a good look.