Assuming Peyton Is Retained & Luck Goes Elway...should We Go Rg3?

Coltsman1788 · February 5, 2012

What follows is a hypothetical...

Ok...suppose some how, some way Irsay and Peyton are able to reach a meeting of the minds and Peyton decides to redo his deal taking less money to better alleviate the salary cap bind on the Colts. I will not go into the specifics of the structure because I have no idea how such a deal should look. Also after meeting with Peyton, Irsay is fully assured that 18 will be healthy enough to play next year and is reasonably confident that he can be close to what we have come to expect from him. The Colts shock the world and announce that they are releasing Peyton Manning but intend to resign him revealing that they have mutually decided to rework the deal so that he can remain a Colt and be better on the salary cap.

As a repercussion to this, Andrew Luck decides that he does not want to sit behind Manning. He wants to play and he wants to play now. Would this change the perception of any of the Pro-Luck crowd on this board change towards drafting RG3 in the event that Peyton is retained & Luck says he'd hold out? Or do you feel we should bypass QB all together and start beefing it up for one last run with Peyton?

IMO...though I am in favor of drafting Luck and feel he is the best prospect in this draft, in this situation I would be all for going with RG3.

RG3 is currently saying all the right things. He has expressed no qualms about sitting behind Manning and learning from a legend. His attitude seems better suited to coping with such a situation as opposed to Luck who although he has not said anything detrimental, the buzz is that he expects and wants to start wherever he goes.

Note to mods: this discusses the draft but it is linked to resolution of the Peyton situation which is why I posted it here. If you feel it should be moved then by all means feel free to do so. Thanks.

21isSuperman · February 5, 2012

I would think so. Either go RG3 or draft Luck and trade him for a ton of picks/young players

ruksak · February 5, 2012

If we don't take Luck, we should trade. I don't like the looks of Griffin. Strikes me as the prototypical overhyped Heisman winner that bombs out in the NFL. I bet he slips into the second round easy.

Balzer40 · February 5, 2012

For one thing I don't know why people keep presuming that Luck would pull an Elway or Eli. He has given no indication at all that he would pull such a move what so ever. In fact, he has been on record saying just the opposite.

Secondly, in the very remote chance that he would pull such a move, I still would not want RG3. I have said it numerous times that he is not going to have an easy transition to the NFL, even if he sits behind Manning for a couple of yrs.. That is just my opinion about him, and I am not sold on him at all. Don't want nothing to do with him. With that said, being a Colts fan for almost 30 yrs., if Irsay did decide to draft him, I would hope that he proves me wrong and he becomes a great QB, but I have serious doubts that will ever happen.

Coltswarriors · February 5, 2012

Yes. If we don't take Luck, you take RG3.

Coltsman1788 · February 5, 2012

If we don't take Luck, we should trade. I don't like the looks of Griffin. Strikes me as the prototypical overhyped Heisman winner that bombs out in the NFL. I bet he slips into the second round easy.

You might ultimately prove to be right in your opinion of Griffin. Only time will tell for sure. However I seriously doubt that "he slips to the 2nd round easy". Too many teams in need of a quarterback this year for that to even come close to happening. I don't see it short of him getting injured or bombing the combine.

Colts20593 · February 5, 2012

I don't like the looks of Griffin. Strikes me as the prototypical overhyped Heisman winner that bombs out in the NFL. I bet he slips into the second round easy.

+1

bigblue · February 5, 2012

Or do you feel we should bypass QB all together and start beefing it up for one last run with Peyton?

This, to some extent. It's obvious we need a backup QB, but we could get SOOO much out of that #1 if we traded down. I say draft one late 2 or early 3. Maybe Nick Foles, Cousins, or I honestly think Kellen Moore could be a solid NFL QB.

RG3 is currently saying all the right things. He has expressed no qualms about sitting behind Manning and learning from a legend. His attitude seems better suited to coping with such a situation as opposed to Luck who although he has not said anything detrimental, the buzz is that he expects and wants to start wherever he goes.

Eh, just seems like a waste. I hate investing that much money and letting them sit on the bench and hope they develop. Peyton doesn't let other QB's take starting reps. I don't know how much he can learn with no reps.

ruksak · February 5, 2012

You might ultimately prove to be right in your opinion of Griffin. Only time will tell for sure. However I seriously doubt that "he slips to the 2nd round easy". Too many teams in need of a quarterback this year for that to even come close to happening. I don't see it short of him getting injured or bombing the combine.

Well....I was horribly wrong about Newton. I thought that dude was a bustosaurus.

UndecidedFrog · February 5, 2012

What follows is a hypothetical...
Ok...suppose some how, some way Irsay and Peyton are able to reach a meeting of the minds and Peyton decides to redo his deal taking less money to better alleviate the salary cap bind on the Colts. I will not go into the specifics of the structure because I have no idea how such a deal should look. Also after meeting with Peyton, Irsay is fully assured that 18 will be healthy enough to play next year and is reasonably confident that he can be close to what we have come to expect from him. The Colts shock the world and announce that they are releasing Peyton Manning but intend to resign him revealing that they have mutually decided to rework the deal so that he can remain a Colt and be better on the salary cap.
As a repercussion to this, Andrew Luck decides that he does not want to sit behind Manning. He wants to play and he wants to play now. Would this change the perception of any of the Pro-Luck crowd on this board change towards drafting RG3 in the event that Peyton is retained & Luck says he'd hold out? Or do you feel we should bypass QB all together and start beefing it up for one last run with Peyton?
IMO...though I am in favor of drafting Luck and feel he is the best prospect in this draft, in this situation I would be all for going with RG3.
RG3 is currently saying all the right things. He has expressed no qualms about sitting behind Manning and learning from a legend. His attitude seems better suited to coping with such a situation as opposed to Luck who although he has not said anything detrimental, the buzz is that he expects and wants to start wherever he goes.
Note to mods: this discusses the draft but it is linked to resolution of the Peyton situation which is why I posted it here. If you feel it should be moved then by all means feel free to do so. Thanks.

The scenario you paint is a very unlikely, but tough situation for the Colts. First let me say why I think it is very unlikely, then I will provide my recommendation should the Colts find themselves in this unlikely situation.

Reasons why this is very unlikely:

1) Unlikely that a new agreement with PM will work given the discount required to become more cap friendly than the old agreement.

2) Unlikely that Luck would do an Eli....not an Elway, because Elway had MLB Yankees as leverage. Eli and Luck do not have the alternate sport (well, Luck is an OK soccer player...but nothing compared to the pro level). I don't see Luck's character (from what I have read about him for about 2 years now) allowing himself to do this type of power play.

3) I see RG3 as a good QB prospect. However, when compared to Luck, I think RG3 is loses much in comparison. The only reason RG3 is being talked of being taken as #2-4 is because QBs are in high demand in this year's draft. Without that demand, I see Luck as #1 overall pick, and RG3 as around the #10-13 overall pick. Taking RG3 with the #1 overall seems like a waste of the pick.

If the Colts find themselves in this unlikely position, and assuming PM is at least 80% back performance-wise before the draft AND has a good prognosis to start the season at 100%, I recommend the Colts trade the #1 overall pick and use the multiple picks received from such trade to pick other positions. I also recommend one of those picks be used in the 2nd round for a QB prospect: Osweiler, Foles, Cousins, Weeden.

If the Colts find themselves in this unlikely position, and assuming PM is below 80% back performance-wise before the draft, with no good prognosis to start the season at 100%, I recommend that the Colts release PM, and draft Luck.

Balzer40 · February 5, 2012

Well....I was horribly wrong about Newton. I thought that dude was a bustosaurus.

Im still not ready to proclaim Newton a success. Yes, he had a good rookie yr., but will he continue to improve, I don't know. Maybe he does keep getting better but Im not convinced he has his priorities in the right place yet.

Slick_Rick · February 5, 2012

I sure did too ruk. I think NFL qb's are in transition. As the League becomes more geared towards the pass, the pass rushers become a higher priority. This means that qb's will now need to be able to make plays out of the pocket. I think it is rather interesting.

Coltsman1788 · February 5, 2012

For one thing I don't know why people keep presuming that Luck would pull an Elway or Eli. He has given no indication at all that he would pull such a move what so ever. In fact, he has been on record saying just the opposite.
Secondly, in the very remote chance that he would pull such a move, I still would not want RG3. I have said it numerous times that he is not going to have an easy transition to the NFL, even if he sits behind Manning for a couple of yrs.. That is just my opinion about him, and I am not sold on him at all. Don't want nothing to do with him. With that said, being a Colts fan for almost 30 yrs., if Irsay did decide to draft him, I would hope that he proves me wrong and he becomes a great QB, but I have serious doubts that will ever happen.

Yeah I hear what you are saying about Luck and his willingness to play. I stated its a hypothetical and that Luck has not said anything detrimental in actuality.

RG3 is intriguing...much more risky alternative than Luck admittedly but if he were to grasp the game on the NFL level then look out. A guy like Peyton could have a huge impact on him. He would definitely be different from what we have grown accustomed to and I think the main thing working against him is that as of yet, no one has yet proved that they can win a Super Bowl with a quarterback playing this style. Until someone actually does it, it will be an uphill climb dealing with negative perceptions. Not to say it can't be done but the track record isn't supportive to say the least.

So I assume that you would prefer trading the pick in this scenario and building up around Manning? In your view, how should we best address the back-up situation behind Manning given the thread scenario?

Coltsman1788 · February 5, 2012

This, to some extent. It's obvious we need a backup QB, but we could get SOOO much out of that #1 if we traded down. I say draft one late 2 or early 3. Maybe Nick Foles, Cousins, or I honestly think Kellen Moore could be a solid NFL QB.
Eh, just seems like a waste. I hate investing that much money and letting them sit on the bench and hope they develop. Peyton doesn't let other QB's take starting reps. I don't know how much he can learn with no reps.

Lol gotta admit that this is true. Darn that greedy Peyton. But I think just watching film with Peyton, talking with him and helping him in the prep process can be invaluable experience to a young quarterback.

ruksak · February 5, 2012

I sure did too ruk. I think NFL qb's are in transition. As the League becomes more geared towards the pass, the pass rushers become a higher priority. This means that qb's will now need to be able to make plays out of the pocket. I think it is rather interesting.

Excellent point.

I too am unwilling to proclaim Newton a success quite yet, but he sure impressed. Griffin reminds me of Troy Davis y'all.

dfaust3613 · February 5, 2012

I really love Peyton and hope he stays with us, but if the guy gets hit the wrong way and rushes stuff he could be done for good then what do we do? We have no good QB right in the middle of a hopeful season and then we are >>>ed again. Out of all the topics not one person on the colts have said anything about drafting defense and offensive players instead of a QB what about the guy that did get us some wins last season Dan O? Put him behind Peyton and let him learn I mean look at Rogers behind Favre all those years. Peyton knows all about the Colts he would pick us apart if he played elsewhere and Irsay knows that. The one thing that has upset me this week though is this is Eli's moment and its all been about Peyton, we Colts fans gotta be the 12th man and go in there and make sure Brady doesn't win in Peytons House! Go G Men!!!!!

Balzer40 · February 5, 2012

Yeah I hear what you are saying about Luck and his willingness to play. I stated its a hypothetical and that Luck has not said anything detrimental in actuality.
RG3 is intriguing...much more risky alternative than Luck admittedly but if he were to grasp the game on the NFL level then look out. I guy like Peyton could have a huge impact on him. He would definitely be different from what we have grown accustomed to and I think the main thing working against him is that as of yet, no one has yet proved that they can win a Super Bowl with a quarterback playing this style. Until someone actually does it, it will be an uphill climb dealing with negative perceptions. Not to say it can't be done but the track record isn't supportive to say the least.
So I assume that you would prefer trading the pick in this scenario and building up around Manning? In your view, how should we best address the back-up situation behind Manning given the thread scenario?

I would definately trade the pick if Luck said "No way, Im not sitting behind Manning"(Once again, very unlikely). I would then pick up a guy like Ryan Tannehill with one of the picks we got in return. A lot of people aren't sold on Tannehill either but I would choose him over RG3 in a heartbeat. With all this said, I hate playing the hypothetical game and would much rather dabble with the reality of the situation. IMO the reality will be that Manning will not be here and we'll pick Luck. No way do I see Irsay paying 28 mil to Peyton with the uncertainty of his nerve regeneration. If (and thats a huge IF) Peyton takes less money to stay a Colt and it can be done regardless(Not sure it can be due to CBA rules) then the possibility exists that Manning can stay, but beyond that scenario, I don't think Manning will be here anyway.

Coltsman1788 · February 5, 2012

Well....I was horribly wrong about Newton. I thought that dude was a bustosaurus.

Well then there you go. lol No seriously, you certainly weren't alone there buddy. You're just honest enough to admit to it.

BProland85 · February 5, 2012

I would think so. Either go RG3 or draft Luck and trade him for a ton of picks/young players

If Peyton is completely healthy and ready to go by draft time, we should trade the Luck pick to Cleveland for their 4th, 22nd, 2nd round, and 2013 1st.(We should ask for nothing less than that.) Then we could target CB Morris Claiborne, NT Dontari Poe, DE/OLB Vinny Curry, and WR Mohamed Sanu with out first 4 picks.

BProland85 · February 5, 2012

But if he is still uncertain by march 8th, then we shouldnt risk all that money we're paying him and release him and draft Luck. Unless Peyton is willing to renegotiate a whole new contract that is incentive based on performance.

Coltsman1788 · February 5, 2012

The scenario you paint is a very unlikely, but tough situation for the Colts. First let me say why I think it is very unlikely, then I will provide my recommendation should the Colts find themselves in this unlikely situation.
Reasons why this is very unlikely:
1) Unlikely that a new agreement with PM will work given the discount required to become more cap friendly than the old agreement.
2) Unlikely that Luck would do an Eli....not an Elway, because Elway had MLB Yankees as leverage. Eli and Luck do not have the alternate sport (well, Luck is an OK soccer player...but nothing compared to the pro level). I don't see Luck's character (from what I have read about him for about 2 years now) allowing himself to do this type of power play.
3) I see RG3 as a good QB prospect. However, when compared to Luck, I think RG3 is loses much in comparison. The only reason RG3 is being talked of being taken as #2-4 is because QBs are in high demand in this year's draft. Without that demand, I see Luck as #1 overall pick, and RG3 as around the #10-13 overall pick. Taking RG3 with the #1 overall seems like a waste of the pick.
If the Colts find themselves in this unlikely position, and assuming PM is at least 80% back performance-wise before the draft AND has a good prognosis to start the season at 100%, I recommend the Colts trade the #1 overall pick and use the multiple picks received from such trade to pick other positions. I also recommend one of those picks be used in the 2nd round for a QB prospect: Osweiler, Foles, Cousins, Weeden.
If the Colts find themselves in this unlikely position, and assuming PM is below 80% back performance-wise before the draft, with no good prognosis to start the season at 100%, I recommend that the Colts release PM, and draft Luck.

Thanks! Yeah I am aware that this is a very unlikely scenario...which is why I clarify beforehand that its a hypothetical. I think most people on here have a good idea by now of how I really think this will all go down. But I was mainly interested in the thoughts of people such as yourself, Balzer 40 and others on if this were to somehow happen, which you guys have definitely provided.

Also I agree that Eli would have been a better analogy than Elway for the reasons that you have pointed out.

Basically, I just wanted to get a feel on how other respected Colts fans are thinking regarding this specific scenario regardless of the likelihood of it actually happening.

UndecidedFrog · February 5, 2012

Basically, I just wanted to get a feel on how other respected Colts fans are thinking regarding this specific scenario regardless of the likelihood of it actually happening.

LOL, I very much doubt I am considered a respected Colts fan. I more easily believe that I am a disrespected Colts fan. haha

Smitto · February 5, 2012

No doubt the colts would take Griffin, Griffin clearly has things to work on but so does Luck... If Tim Tebow can take the broncos to the Playoffs anything is possible for any QB that comes out these days... More talk will come of Griffin being taken over Luck, Combine and Pro Days will make the whole thing about Luck being the obvious pick in the draft arguable.

Actually not every team even views luck as the Top pick, gonna be exciting to see how it turns out. Im pulling for Griffin

UndecidedFrog · February 5, 2012

Actually not every team even views luck as the Top pick, ...

Link? please.

Smitto · February 5, 2012

Link? please.

I was trying to find the link but i cant, it was based on the writers opinion but its common sense, Not everyone thinks Luck is the best QB in the draft

UndecidedFrog · February 5, 2012

I was trying to find the link but i cant, it was based on the writers opinion but its common sense, Not everyone thinks Luck is the best QB in the draft

Forgive me, but I don't think it is common sense.

You made a claim that there is at least one team that views Luck as not the top pick.

I am trying to determine on what basis, beside your speculation, if that is true.

Which team(s) does not view Luck as the top pick?

What writers have claimed this?

What team(s) have they identified?

If you cannot provide the above information, I must view this claim as unsubstantiated.

Tony Sullivan · February 5, 2012

If we don't take Luck, we should trade. I don't like the looks of Griffin. Strikes me as the prototypical overhyped Heisman winner that bombs out in the NFL. I bet he slips into the second round easy.

I would bet a lot of money he doesn't slip to the second,

Though I do agree with him having troubles in the NFL. He really needs an exceptional o-line.

Smitto · February 5, 2012

Forgive me, but I don't think it is common sense.
You made a claim that there is at least one team that views Luck as not the top pick.
I am trying to determine on what basis, beside your speculation, if that is true.
Which team(s) does not view Luck as the top pick?
What writers have claimed this?
What team(s) have they identified?
If you cannot provide the above information, I must view this claim as unsubstantiated.

I think you cant understand that because your a Andrew luck fan whos bias... If Tony Dungy was still the colts HC guess who he would rather? Griffin!!... phil sims isnt sold on lucks skills... now what makes you think every team has Luck as the best QB in the draft?

Luck didnt even put up Astounding numbers, if you had to go by stats alone Griffin would come out the winner... Luck had a better Oline, better Receivers and TE's

NFL teams have seen this too many times, highly touted players who dont pan out so obviously they would be objective

WSO · February 5, 2012

I think you cant understand that because your a Andrew luck fan whos bias... If Tony Dungy was still the colts HC guess who he would rather? Griffin!!... phil sims isnt sold on lucks skills... now what makes you think every team has Luck as the best QB in the draft?
Luck didnt even put up Astounding numbers, if you had to go by stats alone Griffin would come out the winner... Luck had a better Oline, better Receivers and TE's
NFL teams have seen this too many times, highly touted players who dont pan out so obviously they would be objective

You said

"Actually not every team even views luck as the Top pick, gonna be exciting to see how it turns out. Im pulling for Griffin"

then go on to name Phil Simms and Tony Dungy?

Show me the link of someone from a TEAM one of the 32 NFL teams that says they dont view Luck as the top pick. I'm waiting. Oh wait let me guess. . ."I dont have the link" "I heard it somewhere" blah blah.

I will bet everything I own that all 32 GMs would take Luck over RG3.

UndecidedFrog · February 5, 2012

I think you cant understand that because your a Andrew luck fan whos bias... If Tony Dungy was still the colts HC guess who he would rather? Griffin!!... phil sims isnt sold on lucks skills... now what makes you think every team has Luck as the best QB in the draft?
Luck didnt even put up Astounding numbers, if you had to go by stats alone Griffin would come out the winner... Luck had a better Oline, better Receivers and TE's
NFL teams have seen this too many times, highly touted players who dont pan out so obviously they would be objective

I can readily understand that there are individuals who do not see Luck as the top pick. However, that is not what you claimed.

You claimed that there is at least one team that does not see Luck as the top pick. I asked you to substantiate that claim. You have not thus far.

Perhaps you have misspoken?

Is what you have done any different than what the media has been accused of doing to people who lack the ability to read critically?

Smitto · February 5, 2012

You said
then go on to name Phil Simms and Tony Dungy?
Show me the link of someone from a TEAM one of the 32 NFL teams that says they dont view Luck as the top pick. I'm waiting. Oh wait let me guess. . ."I dont have the link" "I heard it somewhere" blah blah.
I will bet everything I own that all 32 GMs would take Luck over RG3.

lmao you keep on believing that mate, i dont dislike Luck.. its called common sense and being objective

Everyone thought the texans were gonna take reggie bush and he was a sure bet yet they went and take mario williams... point is as hard as its possibly hard for you to swallow Luck is not the very first great college looking player.... he's just the only overly gassed and hyped one to ever come out of college.

I dont make stuff up, the writer said the quote while writing about Griffin, i did not say A team i said TEAMS

UndecidedFrog · February 5, 2012

I dont make stuff up, the writer said the quote while writing about Griffin, i did not say A team i said TEAMS

OK, please provide a link to this writer's article where he states which teams do not think Luck is the top pick.

Smitto · February 5, 2012

I can readily understand that there are individuals who do not see Luck as the top pick. However, that is not what you claimed.
You claimed that there is at least one team that does not see Luck as the top pick. I asked you to substantiate that claim. You have not thus far.
Perhaps you have misspoken?
Is what you have done any different than what the media has been accused of doing to people who lack the ability to read critically?

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1033412-nfl-draft-2012-scouts-are-foolish-to-prefer-robert-griffin-iii-over-andrew-luck

And you know whats funny thats not even the Link i wanted

I would never say teams prefer anyone without actually having something to back me up... like i said your bias and you obviously can look over the fact that all this talk about how great luck is.. is getting to your head.

I remember somone who said, i dont care how many audibles luck made in college that still doesnt make him a sure success in the NFL just another Great College player

Smitto · February 5, 2012

Here's the actual link of the quote bleacher report had on his OVERLY BIAS article

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/playerbreakingnews.asp?sport=NFL&id=7406&line=226779&spln=1

UndecidedFrog · February 5, 2012

http://bleacherrepor...ver-andrew-luck
And you know whats funny thats not even the Link i wanted
I would never say teams prefer anyone without actually having something to back me up... like i said your bias and you obviously can look over the fact that all this talk about how great luck is.. is getting to your head.
I remember somone who said, i dont care how many audibles luck made in college that still doesnt make him a sure success in the NFL just another Great College player

Thank you for the link. I read the article twice over. Nowhere in that article did it mention that any NFL team viewed Luck as not the top pick. In fact, the article went out of its way to say that scouts are foolish to prefer RG3 to Luck. In fact, the title of the article is:

Scouts Are Foolish to Prefer Robert Griffin III over Andrew Luck

The article does not identify any scouts that are this foolish.

You still have not backed up your claim . It is not bias to ask for the sources that support what you claim to be fact.

UndecidedFrog · February 5, 2012

Here's the actual link of the quote bleacher report had on his OVERLY BIAS article
http://www.rotoworld...e=226779&spln=1

"According to ESPN's Adam Schefter, "a handful of NFL scouts" prefer Baylor QB Robert Griffin III to presumptive No. 1 overall pick Stanford QB Andrew Luck."

So you equate a handful of NFL scouts to mean at least one NFL team, when you claimed:

Actually not every team even views luck as the Top pick, ...

Do you see what I am getting at?

A handful of NFL scouts =/= any NFL team

Smitto · February 5, 2012

Thank you for the link. I read the article twice over. Nowhere in that article did it mention that any NFL team viewed Luck as not the top pick. In fact, the article went out of its way to say that scouts are foolish to prefer RG3 to Luck. In fact, the title of the article is:
Scouts Are Foolish to Prefer Robert Griffin III over Andrew Luck
The article does not identify any scouts that are this foolish.
You still have not backed up your claim . It is not bias to ask for the sources that support what you claim to be fact.

Lol for the simple reason that you are actually asking me to name teams and scouts that said that shows that you ARE bias

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/playerbreakingnews.asp?sport=NFL&id=7406&line=226779&spln=1

that is the original link and adam schefter reported about the scouts

Again that is not the link i was originally talking about, the article i read mentioned TEAMS that viewed griffin as the better QB but did not mention any... idk why that would be hard to fathom at all

UndecidedFrog · February 5, 2012

Lol for the simple reason that you are actually asking me to name teams and scouts that said that shows that you ARE bias
http://www.rotoworld...e=226779&spln=1
that is the original link and adam schefter reported about the scouts
Again that is not the link i was originally talking about, the article i read mentioned TEAMS that viewed griffin as the better QB but did not mention any... idk why that would be hard to fathom at all

Until you can find the article that states categorically that an NFL team does not view Luck as the top pick, you will understand why I don't believe you.

Smitto · February 5, 2012

Until you can find the article that states categorically that an NFL team does not view Luck as the top pick, you will understand why I don't believe you.

You believe whatever you wanna believe lol dont really matter.

shakedownstreet · February 5, 2012

i can just hear the bad puns on espn... "the colts luck has run out" "unlucky colts"

oh wait, we're going to hear those either way

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