Logan Mankins traded to Tampa Bay

[ztboiler]

Of course, the salary they're saving won't go against their cap, ever, so eventually it will equate to cap savings. But those savings are minimal in 2014. 

Yep - and the corrollary to that is that they are giving up a probowl caliber guard who plays at a marginal cost lower that his performance delta.  It isn't a clear cut win from a business perspective, so maybe there is more to the story, and/or Belichek has a good crystal ball about future performance delta.

 

All that said...Mankins was whipped by Potroast on a crucial 4th down play in the Denver playoff game last year.  Maybe that was coincidence, or maybe there are some signs of decline.

[Superman]

Yep - and the corrollary to that is that they are giving up a probowl caliber guard who plays at a marginal cost lower that his performance delta.  It isn't a clear cut win from a business perspective, so maybe there is more to the story, and/or Belichek has a good crystal ball about future performance delta.

 

All that said...Mankins was whipped by Potroast on a crucial 4th down play in the Denver playoff game last year.  Maybe that was coincidence, or maybe there are some signs of decline.

 

Definitely more of a business decision than a football decision. Even if Mankins is declining, and he might be, he's still a quality guard. I don't think they'd be moving him if he had a league average contract, as opposed to being one of the highest paid guards in the league. This is what the Patriots have done for a long time. Move him now, especially when you have a taker on the line, and you get the best value for him.

 

The Pats also have a tough cap situation moving forward, so the future cap savings and the cash savings are meaningful. 

 

Last thing, the Pats dead hit for Mankins is $4.25m this year, and $4m next year. It's a post-June 1 move, so only this year's prorated bonus goes on this year's cap. The rest is held over for next season, and it's only one more year's worth. There's no prorated bonus for 2016, because of the total length of his contract; prorated bonus is only spread out over five years, and he had a six year deal. Not a big deal. The cap carryovers make this less of an issue than it seems, but that's the way it works.

[Sports Central1]

I think it's a good trade by the Pats.  Mankins is 32 and it was a bad deal the Pats signed with him originally.  They over paid for him.   If this trade is what it takes to make room to resign Revis, McCourty and others then it's a good trade and a good trade off.  It's seems like it might balance itself off.  The Pats needed a TE due to the uncertainty of Gronk's health.

 

Mankins and Matt Light as did most of the Pats' offensive line got burned in the two super bowl losses and in some playoff losses disrupting the Pats' offense.  We seem to forget that important fact.  How you perform in the biggest game matters.

 

It just seems people who dislike the Pats just want to use this as an excuse to criticize the Pats as whatever the Pats do people whine and obsess over.  Loyalty to players is stupid and can be dangerous and mess up your cap.  And the Pats are no more loyal or disloyal to players than most other teams.  Until there is an official study done by the NFL and an independent group that documents the stats of which teams cuts players at what point in their career then it's all based on conspiracy and hate.  There is no evidence the Pats are anymore ruthless then any other teams.

[Sports Central1]

I'm not. They always trade or get rid of their best players in their twilight years. Bruschi, Moss, Vrabel, Seymour... And imo all that was a mistake. They haven't had the same defense since, nor a talented deep threat WR since Moss, and they're paying for it in their playoff pushes.

Don't be shocked if they trade Tom Brady either when he's around age 39. The Pats don't care about the loyalty of their players. Hell, sometimes they seem to troll them (read up on the whole Underwood Superbowl fiasco). If you saw the Colts trading Reggie Wayne, the fan-base would be brandishing pitchforks. In New England, it's just business.

 

Again...

 

It just seems people who dislike the Pats just want to use this as an excuse to criticize the Pats as whatever the Pats do people whine and obsess over.  Loyalty to players is stupid and can be dangerous and mess up your cap.  And the Pats are no more loyal or disloyal to players than most other teams.  Until there is an official study done by the NFL and an independent group that documents the stats of which teams cuts players at what point in their career then it's all based on conspiracy and hate.  There is no evidence the Pats are anymore ruthless then any other teams.

 

The Pats being a big market team, they will receive more scrutiny than many other teams.  The Cowboys, Giants, Jets, Redskins and Pats will take most of the brunt of national medial attention.

[ViriLudant]

That is a real good trade for Tampa, and the Pats must like what they have in newly drafted Cameron Fleming and Bryan Stork to do this trade. However, it is hard to reproduce the tenacity of a Logan Mankins, especially on the interior of the OL to run against the likes of the Ravens, Bengals etc.

Will this be a move a tad too early? Only time will tell.

Mankins has been living off of his reputation the past two years.

He was a turnstile against the Giants in the SB and the Broncos last year.

I don't mind trading him; saving $12 mil in cap space over two years. The TE had 54 catches last year.

[CR91]

Mankins has been living off of his reputation the past two years.

He was a turnstile against the Giants in the SB and the Broncos last year.

I don't mind trading him; saving $12 mil in cap space over two years. The TE had 54 catches last year.

 

is this for backup purposes or is gronk behind schedule

[Sports Central1]

Mankins has been living off of his reputation the past two years.

He was a turnstile against the Giants in the SB and the Broncos last year.

I don't mind trading him; saving $12 mil in cap space over two years. The TE had 54 catches last year.

 

True.  People who dislike this trade seem to be Pats' haters because the Pats aren't loyal to players at 40 years old and need to be wheeled off the field.  The NFL is NOT Major League Baseball.  MLB has 'No Trade Clauses' where as the NFL does not.

 

The Pats gave Mankins a contract making him the highest paid guard in the history of the NFL.  Now with Tampa he will still get his money.

 

There are higher priorities for the Pats like resigning Revis, McCourty and new players in the future.

[ViriLudant]

I'm not. They always trade or get rid of their best players in their twilight years. Bruschi, Moss, Vrabel, Seymour... And imo all that was a mistake. They haven't had the same defense since, nor a talented deep threat WR since Moss, and they're paying for it in their playoff pushes.

Don't be shocked if they trade Tom Brady either when he's around age 39. The Pats don't care about the loyalty of their players. Hell, sometimes they seem to troll them (read up on the whole Underwood Superbowl fiasco). If you saw the Colts trading Reggie Wayne, the fan-base would be brandishing pitchforks. In New England, it's just business.

Bruschi?

And Moss was done.

[Superman]

Mankins has been living off of his reputation the past two years.

He was a turnstile against the Giants in the SB and the Broncos last year.

I don't mind trading him; saving $12 mil in cap space over two years. The TE had 54 catches last year.

 

You point out two bad games in three seasons, against two pretty good teams, and that means he's living off of reputation? Everywhere I've looked, Mankins has graded out well the last two years. He was a Pro Bowler in 2013. That doesn't mean he isn't declining; he probably is, at 32. But, you're going overboard here.

 

Virtually anyone is movable if you can get value for them. But you don't want to hurt your team in the process. So really, my question is about who takes his spot in the starting lineup. 

[jvan1973]

Mankins has been living off of his reputation the past two years.

He was a turnstile against the Giants in the SB and the Broncos last year.

I don't mind trading him; saving $12 mil in cap space over two years. The TE had 54 catches last year.

Does reputation get you an All pro selection?

[ztboiler]

Definitely more of a business decision than a football decision. Even if Mankins is declining, and he might be, he's still a quality guard. I don't think they'd be moving him if he had a league average contract, as opposed to being one of the highest paid guards in the league. This is what the Patriots have done for a long time. Move him now, especially when you have a taker on the line, and you get the best value for him.

 

The Pats also have a tough cap situation moving forward, so the future cap savings and the cash savings are meaningful. 

 

Last thing, the Pats dead hit for Mankins is $4.25m this year, and $4m next year. It's a post-June 1 move, so only this year's prorated bonus goes on this year's cap. The rest is held over for next season, and it's only one more year's worth. There's no prorated bonus for 2016, because of the total length of his contract; prorated bonus is only spread out over five years, and he had a six year deal. Not a big deal. The cap carryovers make this less of an issue than it seems, but that's the way it works.

No argument that it is a classic move by BB, and I honestly have respect for the clarity he operates with in this regard. 

 

However, I still don't see it as a clear cut win from a business perspective because you could argue that the marginal cost of $6.5 - $7M per year in new cash/cap hits is lower than the value of his level of play...if you went to the open market to sign a player of that caliber.  Mankins doesn't look overpriced on an incremental basis, even with a touch of decline.  For it to be a win from a business perspective, they will need to be able to apply that cash somewhere to recoup or increase the performance delta lost in some fashion - even if it's at another position.

[Superman]

Does reputation get you an All pro selection?

 

Clearly.

 

Because everyone should know from those two plays in playoff games from 2011 and 2013 -- out of 2500 plays the past three seasons -- that Mankins can't block anymore. 

[jvan1973]

Clearly.

Because everyone should know from those two plays in playoff games from 2011 and 2013 -- out of 2500 plays the past three seasons -- that Mankins can't block anymore.

+1

Yeah four straight all pro selections. He is terrible

[jvan1973]

Cue pats fans saying Mankins sucked anyway

Called this BTW

[Superman]

No argument that it is a classic move by BB, and I honestly have respect for the clarity he operates with in this regard. 

 

However, I still don't see it as a clear cut win from a business perspective because you could argue that the marginal cost of $6.5 - $7M per year in new cash/cap hits is lower than the value of his level of play...if you went to the open market to sign a player of that caliber.  Mankins doesn't look overpriced on an incremental basis, even with a touch of decline.  For it to be a win from a business perspective, they will need to be able to apply that cash somewhere to recoup or increase the performance delta lost in some fashion - even if it's at another position.

 

Once you apply the savings to other positions, the business perspective becomes clear. Whether or not it's a win will be determined by how Mankins performs in relation to his pay, and how the Pats use the savings moving forward. If they cluck it off on a stupid acquisition, then they'd probably have been better off with even average play from Mankins.

 

But there's no question that the total cap savings are a big part of the picture. And the Pats' cap was projecting at more than $150m for 2015 prior to this move. Obviously, they'll do something with Revis' $25m, but they have free agents to worry about, and I still believe that they intend to give Brady another bonus at some point. They'll be making a lot of "business decisions" between now and then.

[ViriLudant]

You point out two bad games in three seasons, against two pretty good teams, and that means he's living off of reputation? Everywhere I've looked, Mankins has graded out well the last two years. He was a Pro Bowler in 2013. That doesn't mean he isn't declining; he probably is, at 32. But, you're going overboard here.

Virtually anyone is movable if you can get value for them. But you don't want to hurt your team in the process. So really, my question is about who takes his spot in the starting lineup.

He was a Pro Bowler due to his reputation. He did not have a good season the past two years.

[ViriLudant]

Btw, I love it when fans who never watch the guy play clearly knows how he played more than the guys who watch him every freaking weekend.

Very , very amusing.

Mankins didn't suck. But he wasn't elite. Patriot fans have been saying this for two years . Don't believe me? Check out Patriots Planet.

It's a surprising move, yes, but no one expected Mankins on the team next year at all.

[Guest nflfan014]

Just heard about the trade, kind of shocked but then heard they got a much needed back up tight end in case Gronk isn't 100 percent or goes down at some point in the season.  If he caught 54 passes from a JAG, he'll do just fine in New England.

[Superman]

He was a Pro Bowler due to his reputation. He did not have a good season the past two years.

 

LOL, okay dude.

 

I wonder if I went to a Pats board and looked at comments over the last couple weeks, what percentage of Mankins comments were talking about how overrated he is. Or if I went to a board from when the Pro Bowl rosters were announced, how many of them were saying how undeserving Mankins was.

 

Maybe he's not as good as his reputation suggests, but saying he didn't have a good season the past two years? Yeah, I disagree, and I think this is a case of Pats fan dismissal. 

 

I don't have a negative view of this move, overall, as you can see from my posts on this matter. But you're doing too much.

[jvan1973]

He was a Pro Bowler due to his reputation. He did not have a good season the past two years.

Pro bowls and All Pro arent voted on the same way. He is still among the best guards in the game using just about any sites metrics. But i knew you would be here claiming he isn't very good anymore

[jvan1973]

Just heard about the trade, kind of shocked but then heard they got a much needed back up tight end in case Gronk isn't 100 percent or goes down at some point in the season. If he caught 54 passes from a JAG, he'll do just fine in New England.

That is extremely impressive considering he played for the bucs

[GoPats]

is this for backup purposes or is gronk behind schedule

 

No, the new guy is more of a "move" TE, like Hernandez. Not nearly as big as Gronk (I think he's like 220ish). But as it stands they have only two TEs on the roster, so they're very thin. Gronk is still expected to be ready for the opener. 

 

 

It's a surprising move, yes, but no one expected Mankins on the team next year at all.

 

Agreed. Given his history, Mankins would not have agreed to a pay cut, and there's no way they were paying him what they were supposed to pay him in 2015. That's part of the reason they drafted some interior linemen this year. The surprising part is just that it happened a year earlier than expected, and at a time when there have been questions about the line overall. But I guess they saw an opportunity and took it. 

 

Question is, which Rutgers alum will Bill draft with that 4th round pick next year? 

[JerodMayo51]

That is a real good trade for Tampa, and the Pats must like what they have in newly drafted Cameron Fleming and Bryan Stork to do this trade. However, it is hard to reproduce the tenacity of a Logan Mankins, especially on the interior of the OL to run against the likes of the Ravens, Bengals etc.

 

Will this be a move a tad too early? Only time will tell.

 

The Patriots definitely downgrade at the position, but my prediction is that we're going to see a Revis and/or McCourty contract extension in the works here real soon.

 

You downgrade at Left Guard, but you extend McCourty who is a top FS and Revis who is a top CB so overall your team gets better.

 

Mankins cannot be replaced, the guy is a Hall of Fame caliber LG and he will definitely be missed because he set the tone on that offensive line and really got after people.  The Patriots knew they were going to not resign him next year because they needed the cap room, so they did it a year early and got a 4th rounder plus a TE prospect at a very thin position.

[JerodMayo51]

is it just me or do the pats always get rid of their long time great players? with how good jimmy has looked maybe tom should watch his back

 

belichick has always said its better to get rid of a guy a year early than a year late.

 

Mankins is a beast of an LG, one of the best in the business, but his cap figure is astronomical and they were not going to keep him going into 2015 and beyond, so by trading him now they're freeing up a lot of cap space that they can use to extend their young studs like Devin McCourty, and hopefully extend Revis for a couple of years as well.

 

Mankins had a Super Star contract, but they have some young guys that are due for some of those big deals now so those tough decisions have to be made and I said in another thread just last night that the Patriots would either be getting rid of Mankins and/or Wilfork to free up the cap space necessary to extend guys like:

 

Devin McCourty

Nate Solder

Chandler Jones

Shane Vereen

Dante Hightower

 

The money has to come from somewhere, and Mankins carries a significant cap hit.

 

 

He is going to be missed, thats for sure.. our offensive line will never be the same, but it was going to happen soon or later, so at least this way they can extend a young stud in another area of the team and keep the overall team strong.

 

Weaken yourself at one position, but hopefully with the $10 million in cap savings they can strengthen themselves in other areas and be a better team overall because of it.

 

Thanks for the great memories Mankins, you defined what it meant to be an alpha male out on the football field and knocked people around like they were rag dolls.  One of my favorite Patriots players, its going to be so weird not having him out there protecting Tom and blowing holes open in the running game

 

The only thing that will make this not sting so much is if they extend McCourty and/or Revis.

[JerodMayo51]

Got him for cheap. Tim Wright won't be missed since they just drafted ASJ, who is now their starting TE by default. Works out for the Pats too, since BB is excellent in coaching up O-Lineman so it's not as huge a loss for them. But I'm sure his experience and veteran leadership will be missed.

 

Mankins is a very big loss... the goal is to use the cap savings next year to sign the younger studs on the team to long term deals and keep the team strong and competitive for another 5+ years.

 

Don't fool yourself though, Mankins is the cream of the crop at the Left Guard position and is a true mans man..he flat out mauls people.. hes played with a partially torn ACL and still dominated lol..

 

Ugh.. so many mixed emotions... they BETTER extend McCourty!

[Shane Bond]

Mankins is a very big loss... the goal is to use the cap savings next year to sign the younger studs on the team to long term deals and keep the team strong and competitive for another 5+ years.

Don't fool yourself though, Mankins is the cream of the crop at the Left Guard position and is a true mans man..he flat out mauls people.. hes played with a partially torn ACL and still dominated lol..

Ugh.. so many mixed emotions... they BETTER extend McCourty!

Man are you crying

[JerodMayo51]

The Patriots then upgrade their line by signing Incognito to a 1 year deal, get the draft pick, the TE and the cap savings, calling it now.

 

Incognito wouldnt be an upgrade over Mankins... but he would be a sufficient replacement.  

 

Mankins is top 3 at Left Guard in the entire league, in my opinion.  His loss is not to be taken lightly and is a bit concerning, but i know that the Patriots are looking at it from a pure money stand point and strengthening the team elsewhere... most likely the defense.

 

Wilfork is going to be the next big name to go the way of Mankins, but they'll probably get one more solid year out of him first for a SB run and to groom these young DTs.

[JerodMayo51]

The Pats don't care about the loyalty of their players. Hell, sometimes they seem to troll them (read up on the whole Underwood Superbowl fiasco). If you saw the Colts trading Reggie Wayne, the fan-base would be brandishing pitchforks. In New England, it's just business.

 

 

Wow..  Underwood was cut and re-signed all year long, multiple times.  It is a common practice that the Patriots and some other teams use, and it doesn't matter if its a regular season game, playoff game or Super Bowl, they have consistently made roster adjustments based on their needs and gameplan for the upcoming opponent.

 

You love to spin things in a negative light constantly and make the Patriots out to be these evil monsters lol... You're right, it is just business, because thats what the NFL is, A BUSINESS. 

 

The players understand it and so do the owners.  Getting sentimental means you're a poor businessman and you're hurting your team by being emotional about stuff.

 

These are grown men getting paid millions of dollars to play a game.  They understand it, they have a players union and agents that deal with this stuff all day long, so stop trying to pretend that the big bad patriots are just so awful because they have done what they always do, consistently, and have been one of the best teams in the entire NFL for over a decade because of it.

[Shane Bond]

Incognito wouldnt be an upgrade over Mankins... but he would be a sufficient replacement.

Mankins is top 3 at Left Guard in the entire league, in my opinion. His loss is not to be taken lightly and is a bit concerning, but i know that the Patriots are looking at it from a pure money stand point and strengthening the team elsewhere... most likely the defense.

Wilfork is going to be the next big name to go the way of Mankins, but they'll probably get one more solid year out of him first for a SB run and to groom these young DTs.

I agree and said the same to GoPats. He is a force and this will be interesting to see how it impacts Brady.

However, according to your pal Viri everybody in NE thinks he is washed up and living off his reputation?. Below in his own words.

"Mankins has been living off of his reputation the past two years."

[JerodMayo51]

No argument that it is a classic move by BB, and I honestly have respect for the clarity he operates with in this regard. 

 

However, I still don't see it as a clear cut win from a business perspective because you could argue that the marginal cost of $6.5 - $7M per year in new cash/cap hits is lower than the value of his level of play...if you went to the open market to sign a player of that caliber.  Mankins doesn't look overpriced on an incremental basis, even with a touch of decline.  For it to be a win from a business perspective, they will need to be able to apply that cash somewhere to recoup or increase the performance delta lost in some fashion - even if it's at another position.

 

Exactly, it will be a business win if they utilize the savings in future years to extend McCourty and Revis, or a number of other young players that will demand big contracts soon (Chander Jones, Nate Solder, Dante Hightower, Shane Vereen) to name a few.

[JerodMayo51]

I agree and said the same to GoPats. He is a force and this will be interesting to see how it impacts Brady.

However, according to your pal Viri everybody in NE thinks he is washed up and living off his reputation?. Below in his own words.

"Mankins has been living off of his reputation the past two years."

 

i dont share his opinion, Mankins is as manly as it gets... he ropes bulls and cattle on a ranch in his spare time for fun lol!

 

His presence is always felt on the left side of that line in every game and he absolutely mauls on people all game long, even with serious injuries that he plays through at a high level.

 

Pretending that his departure won't impact the Patriots is wishful thinking to the extreme.  He will be missed, but the Patriots can still make their overall team better if they use the future cap savings wisely and extend these young studs they have.

[ViriLudant]

LOL, okay dude.

I wonder if I went to a Pats board and looked at comments over the last couple weeks, what percentage of Mankins comments were talking about how overrated he is. Or if I went to a board from when the Pro Bowl rosters were announced, how many of them were saying how undeserving Mankins was.

Maybe he's not as good as his reputation suggests, but saying he didn't have a good season the past two years? Yeah, I disagree, and I think this is a case of Pats fan dismissal.

I don't have a negative view of this move, overall, as you can see from my posts on this matter. But you're doing too much.

JHC.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Go to Patriots Planet. Ask the people there what the opinion of Mankins has been the past 2-3 years.

Please do. If so, you will learn precisely what I've posted .

[ztboiler]

Once you apply the savings to other positions, the business perspective becomes clear. Whether or not it's a win will be determined by how Mankins performs in relation to his pay, and how the Pats use the savings moving forward. If they cluck it off on a stupid acquisition, then they'd probably have been better off with even average play from Mankins.

 

But there's no question that the total cap savings are a big part of the picture. And the Pats' cap was projecting at more than $150m for 2015 prior to this move. Obviously, they'll do something with Revis' $25m, but they have free agents to worry about, and I still believe that they intend to give Brady another bonus at some point. They'll be making a lot of "business decisions" between now and then.

All true.  I think Beliczech provides more interesting case studies to debate about business/football trade-offs because he is willing to part with his talent when there is an indeterminate amount of tread left on the tires.  Some of it is moot, as you suggest, in that they are going to need raw cap savings regardless of any fancy debate about marginal cost vs. marginal revenue just to balance the checkbook in the near future.

[jvan1973]

JHC.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Go to Patriots Planet. Ask the people there what the opinion of Mankins has been the past 2-3 years.

Please do. If so, you will learn precisely what I've posted .

So go to a pats board and see what they think about a player they just traded? I'm sure they will give very objective analysis.

[ViriLudant]

So go to a pats board and see what they think about a player they just traded? I'm sure they will give very objective analysis.

You didn't read his post , did you?

My opinion of Mankins has been many Patriot fans' opinion of Mankins for the past two seasons. He was GREAT, but hasn't been his usual self, probably more because of injuries than anything.

[amfootball]

I see this as purely a business move. He is 32 and was due to make big money the next two years. Also, with the moves the Pats made in the draft to the OL they should have a replacement. It remains to be seen though who will fill his shoes. Mankins has definitely not been the same player the last couple of years but still the captain of the O line. This kind of reminds me of the Seymour trade when he was 30. Surprising on one level but when you look at the business side of it better to move on now and get something and save the money. They needed to free up money for McCourtny and Revis anyways.

[ViriLudant]

Since we can't post links to other boards, I will just copy/paste some comments:

"Snarling at the guy opposite you does not equal good protection. Mankins definitely not the player he usta be. Hope he has big fun with the Bucs, though, but we don't need all the penalties he was starting to make a habit."

"I don't even care about the return (and Wright's a really nice piece coming back, potentially). Mankins is off the cap and GONE, that overrated *."

So he was great, eh?

"Fact: Mankins allowed 11 sacks (or 28% of the entire 40 sack total) in 2014. #seeya"

[jvan1973]

Since we can't post links to other boards, I will just copy/paste some comments:

"Snarling at the guy opposite you does not equal good protection. Mankins definitely not the player he usta be. Hope he has big fun with the Bucs, though, but we don't need all the penalties he was starting to make a habit."

Exactly. of coarse some are going to say that post trade.

[ViriLudant]

Exactly. of coarse some are going to say that post trade.

Too bad these people have all been saying it for two years.

Just accept that you're wrong, and move on.

[amfootball]

Exactly. of coarse some are going to say that post trade.

VL is right. Folks were not that high on Mankins the last two seasons. I loved this toughness and how he would play through injuries but he was def. on the decline. I am still surprised at the trade but given what he was due to make in the coming years, it makes sense to do it now while you can still get something good for him. The TE had 50+ catches.