Moncrief as a returner?

[Coffeedrinker]

Are you talking about the camp that Brazil has made the 53 man roster in for 2 yrs now? It is the same thing you did with the stats and Leaf comment does it get more asinine than that?  You are right there are a lot asinine comments and one asinine person.

 

We will see in camp like we have for 2 years.

   Alright, he made the 53 man roster 2 years in a row good for him.  What has he produced in those 2 years (the full two years not cherry picking one game)

 

And still the comment that he must be good because the Colts drafted him in the 5th round is about the most asinine comment there can be.

[BrentMc11]

Beware of cherry picking....ladders are dangerous....

 

[Jay Kirk]

Beware of cherry picking....ladders are dangerous....

 

Not to mention those cherrys look right down hefty.

[Flash7]

   Alright, he made the 53 man roster 2 years in a row good for him.  What has he produced in those 2 years (the full two years not cherry picking one game)

 

And still the comment that he must be good because the Colts drafted him in the 5th round is about the most asinine comment there can be.

 

 

Are you talking about the camp that Brazil has made the 53 man roster in for 2 yrs now? It is the same thing you did with the stats and Leaf comment does it get more asinine than that?  You are right there are a lot asinine comments and one asinine person.

 

We will see in camp like we have for 2 years.

 

 

The Ryan Leaf comment was directed soley at your, "he was drafted for a reason" remark.  Just because someone was drafted does not mean they have the skill to compete.

That is why they have camp, no doubt.

 

You did cherry pick, you looked at one game and said that is what he brings to the table.  That is the definition of cherry picking.{Def: Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.}  Whereas, I looked at the entire body of work to date.  I broke down the stats based on regular season and playoffs and presented the entire argument.  You looked at one game.

 

Lastly, yes I brought up Leaf, it was to show you how asinine a comment like, "he was drafted for a reason," is.

Regarding the conversation about Whalen vs. Brazill, click the link below to see what the advanced stats have to say. Click on the circles for different statistical categories. These stats are not cherry picked.

 

http://infogr.am/wr-advanced-stats-2013?src=web

 

Whalen beats out Brazill in every category with the exception of drop rate where they are equal. Yes Brazill has more 'supposed' potential. He also has more potential than Wes Welker. Brazill is bigger, faster, and stronger- yet the NFL is littered with unrealized potential--all while guys like Whalen actually realize their potential and keep balling out.

[akcolt]

Alright, he made the 53 man roster 2 years in a row good for him. What has he produced in those 2 years (the full two years not cherry picking one game)

And still the comment that he must be good because the Colts drafted him in the 5th round is about the most asinine comment there can be.

[Coffeedrinker]

Regarding the conversation about Whalen vs. Brazill, click the link below to see what the advanced stats have to say. These stats are not cherry picked.

 

http://infogr.am/wr-advanced-stats-2013?src=web

 

Whalen beats out Brazill in every category with the exception of drop rate where they are equal. Yes Brazill has more 'supposed' potential. He also has more potential than Wes Welker. Brazill is bigger, faster, and stronger- yet the NFL is littered with unrealized potential--all while guys like Whalen actually realize their potential and keep balling out.

Very interesting.  I've posted on here many times that I am a big fan of Advanced NFL Stats (now Analytics)

[Jay Kirk]

Will say this Brazil didn't play much wideout till late and looked pretty good late your stats for this argument are about worthless, it will come down to camp.Barring injury would be inclined to give Brazil the nod for his overall game ,but I like them both.

[akcolt]

I didn't say he was good because he was drafted he is good at something because he continues to make the team. There are plenty of players that are drafted but don't make teams.

Camp will decide it that's its purpose

[BrentMc11]

Will say this Brazil didn't play much wideout till late and looked pretty good late your stats for this argument are about worthless, it will come down to camp.Barring injury would be inclined to give Brazil the nod for his overall game ,but I like them both.

I think all of the arguing will be for naught....there will be injuries to someone...whether minor or major that makes the difference.  

 

I do not like the stats either.  Brazill did things late in the year that Whalen could only dream of.  No way Griff is running through 5 tacklers.

[Coffeedrinker]

Will say this Brazil didn't play much wideout till late and looked pretty good late your stats for this argument are about worthless, it will come down to camp.Barring injury would be inclined to give Brazil the nod for his overall game ,but I like them both.

Ofcourse it will come down to camp, no one is saying anything different, but like in every thread on the forum you have people voicing their opinions.

As far as Brazill not playing much until late.  He played in more games than Whalen did... So, when discussing what a player has done in the past, what else, besides stats do you use to discuss that?

[Flash7]

I think all of the arguing will be for naught....there will be injuries to someone...whether minor or major that makes the difference.  

 

I do not like the stats either.  Brazill did things late in the year that Whalen could only dream of.  No way Griff is running through 5 tacklers.

Whalen actually broke through several tackles, multiple times, in the first KC Chiefs game. He kept many scoring drives alive.

[Coffeedrinker]

I didn't say he was good because he was drafted he is good at something because he continues to make the team. There are plenty of players that are drafted but don't make teams.

Camp will decide it that's its purpose

That is asinine too.  There are hundreds of players that were on an NFL roster for a two or three years and then no more.  That is not proof they are good either.

[Superman]

He had some a couple of good runs after the catch and his special teams ability is good and may be the difference.  But here's why I like Whalen over Brazill

 

In 25 career games Brazill has 23 catches 347 yards and 3 TDs.  And the playoffs to that and you get 25 games, 29 catches for 474 yards and 5 TDs.

 

Whalen in 9 career games has 24 catches, 259 yards and 2 TDs.  Add the playoffs to that you get 31 catches 352 yards and 2 TDs.  

 

Additionally in the regular season (can't find the stats for the post season). Whalen had 14 first down catches(1.55 per game), Brazill has 14 (0.56 per game)in all 25 career games. 

 

Now stats don't tell the whole story, I know, but the combination of these stats shows that Brazill, while able to do something with the ball when he catches it, struggles to get open consistently enough to be relied upon.  Whalen, isn't going to give you much after the catch but he knows how to get open and how to get open knows how to move the chains.

 

Neither of them has a lot of production to this point. And even if we didn't have Nicks and now Moncrief, neither of them would be safe based on what they've done so far. And it's such a small sample size that even comparing what they have done is kind of pointless, IMO. 

 

Even if you extrapolated their numbers out, you'd be looking at a Wes Welker vs DeSean Jackson kind of argument. Two completely different receivers, with different skill sets; neither is your prototypical #1 threat, but both can be productive. Whalen seems like the kind of guy who can get open and move the chains consistently, while Brazill is the guy who can bust a big play, but won't be as reliable. One will have more volume stats, the other will be more dynamic and probably score more TDs. This would be a great debate if we were talking about Welker vs Jackson; I don't think it's very interesting when we're talking about Whalen vs. Brazill. And I'm ignoring Rogers entirely, even though, for my money, he'd be the guy at WR5.

 

Anyways, it's my opinion that the competition between these two will be more about what kind of player the staff wants at the 5th/6th WR spot, and it will probably come down to special teams, not their attributes as receivers. So you might like the possession guy, and someone else might like the more explosive guy, but neither of them is going to be a big part of the passing offense if the guys ahead of them are healthy. In a perfect world, it's Reggie, TY and Nicks, then Allen and Fleener, then the backs, who produce as receivers. Even with an injury to one of the receivers, we'd still probably use the TEs more before we rely heavily on one of the back-end guys. If either Brazill or Whalen is a big part of the passing offense this year, it means bad things about our stable of receiving options.

 

All JMO, but it seems like you guys are debating over who gets cut first, or who gets to fair catch punts and take a knee on kickoffs for us. And you're doing it on the basis of who you like more as a receiver, which I think is missing the point entirely.

[twfish]

Will say this Brazil didn't play much wideout till late and looked pretty good late your stats for this argument are about worthless, it will come down to camp.Barring injury would be inclined to give Brazil the nod for his overall game ,but I like them both.

he didnt play until later because he was suspended. Whalen didnt come in until even later and his stats are better. so how exactly are the stats worthless? just because the stats dont agree with your opinion does that make them worthless?

[Coffeedrinker]

I think all of the arguing will be for naught....there will be injuries to someone...whether minor or major that makes the difference.  

 

I do not like the stats either.  Brazill did things late in the year that Whalen could only dream of.  No way Griff is running through 5 tacklers

Have to like any post that uses the phrase "for naught."

[Coffeedrinker]

Neither of them has a lot of production to this point. And even if we didn't have Nicks and now Moncrief, neither of them would be safe based on what they've done so far. And it's such a small sample size that even comparing what they have done is kind of pointless, IMO. 

 

Even if you extrapolated their numbers out, you'd be looking at a Wes Welker vs DeSean Jackson kind of argument. Two completely different receivers, with different skill sets; neither is your prototypical #1 threat, but both can be productive. Whalen seems like the kind of guy who can get open and move the chains consistently, while Brazill is the guy who can bust a big play, but won't be as reliable. One will have more volume stats, the other will be more dynamic and probably score more TDs. This would be a great debate if we were talking about Welker vs Jackson; I don't think it's very interesting when we're talking about Whalen vs. Brazill. And I'm ignoring Rogers entirely, even though, for my money, he'd be the guy at WR5.

 

Anyways, it's my opinion that the competition between these two will be more about what kind of player the staff wants at the 5th/6th WR spot, and it will probably come down to special teams, not their attributes as receivers. So you might like the possession guy, and someone else might like the more explosive guy, but neither of them is going to be a big part of the passing offense if the guys ahead of them are healthy. In a perfect world, it's Reggie, TY and Nicks, then Allen and Fleener, then the backs, who produce as receivers. Even with an injury to one of the receivers, we'd still probably use the TEs more before we rely heavily on one of the back-end guys. If either Brazill or Whalen is a big part of the passing offense this year, it means bad things about our stable of receiving options.

 

All JMO, but it seems like you guys are debating over who gets cut first, or who gets to fair catch punts and take a knee on kickoffs for us. And you're doing it on the basis of who you like more as a receiver, which I think is missing the point entirely.

Man Superman.  Why did you have to come hear and make sense and be all logical?  There is really no room for that kind of talk in a thread like this.

[Jay Kirk]

Ofcourse it will come down to camp, no one is saying anything different, but like in every thread on the forum you have people voicing their opinions.

As far as Brazill not playing much until late.  He played in more games than Whalen did... So, when discussing what a player has done in the past, what else, besides stats do you use to discuss that?

Most of Brazils games were on ST punt and kick coverage,hes not half bad

[Jay Kirk]

Lol we are in wrong thread for this discussion anyway

[Superman]

Man Superman.  Why did you have to come hear and make sense and be all logical?  There is really no room for that kind of talk in a thread like this.

 

My bad, didn't mean it. Ignore my post.

[Coffeedrinker]

Most of Brazils games were on ST punt and kick coverage,hes not half bad

Never said he was bad.  As far as most of his games being on ST... That's not true.  He had two games after his suspension before Wayne got injured, so the receivers ahead of him were TY and DHB.    People just think he didn't play WR because he didn't really do anything until about 4 weeks after that. His lack of production is a big reason why the Colts activated Whalen from the practice squad.  And then he never had a game over 3 receptions.

[Jay Kirk]

Never said he was bad.  As far as most of his games being on ST... That's not true.  He had two games after his suspension before Wayne got injured.  People just think he didn't WR because he didn't really do anything until about 4 weeks after that.  And then he never had a game over 3 receptions.

Could be lack of work and timing with first team .Grif has an advantage in that respect because of playing with Andrew in college

[Coffeedrinker]

Could be lack of work and timing with first team .Grif has an advantage in that respect because of playing with Andrew in college

OIC.  

[Jay Kirk]

Also 2 total different type recievers

[Coffeedrinker]

Also 2 total different type recievers

Very true.  Which is a big reason why I think Whalen has a better shot of sticking with the team than Brazill.  The Colts have Hilton and Moncrief to stretch the field.  They have Wayne who will be in exactly the right place at the right time.  They have Hicks whom they hope will become that player but until they do, they need another back-up for Wayne and Whalen is more like Wayne than Brazill.  Brazill does not have the speed to stretch the field.  He's not a good enough route runner to be in the exact right place and the exact right time.  He has good speed and a good ST.

 

Brazill would have a lot more opportunities on a WR starved team like the Chiefs or the Bucs.  Because I live in KC I see a lot of Chiefs stuff and with a team like the Chiefs, I think Brazill would do well and become that 600-800 yard a year receiver.

[Jay Kirk]

Very true.

Could it weigh in ?Who knows camp will tell lol. One thing that worrys me a little beginning to wonder if Nicks is injury prone.

[CR91]

When all is set and done moncrief will prob be the best wr on our roster.

 

I believe mr.hilton would politely disagree good sir

[Jay Kirk]

Very true.  Which is a big reason why I think Whalen has a better shot of sticking with the team than Brazill.  The Colts have Hilton and Moncrief to stretch the field.  They have Wayne who will be in exactly the right place at the right time.  They have Hicks whom they hope will become that player but until they do, they need another back-up for Wayne and Whalen is more like Wayne than Brazill.  Brazill does not have the speed to stretch the field.  He's not a good enough route runner to be in the exact right place and the exact right time.  He has good speed and a good ST.

 

Brazill would have a lot more opportunities on a WR starved team like the Chiefs or the Bucs.  Because I live in KC I see a lot of Chiefs stuff and with a team like the Chiefs, I think Brazill would do well and become that 600-800 yard a year receiver.

4.4 speed to be exact .Evidently stronger as well

[BrentMc11]

Whalen actually broke through several tackles, multiple times, in the first KC Chiefs game. He kept many scoring drives alive.

????

 

I need to watch again.  He was good at punt returns.

 

He is in zero way near as physical as Brazill....watch LB on Special teams Slash.

[BrentMc11]

Have to like any post that uses the phrase "for naught."

For naught....for naught...for naught....

[BrentMc11]

Most of Brazils games were on ST punt and kick coverage,hes not half bad

Excellent on Special Teams to make it clear brother...thrives on contact.

 

And....I like Whalen too....  Gotta keep pointing it out

[Jay Kirk]

????

 

I need to watch again.  He was good at punt returns.

 

He is in zero way near as physical as Brazill....watch LB on Special teams Slash.

Lol maybe they were watching 2 different people

[Flash7]

????

 

I need to watch again.  He was good at punt returns.

 

He is in zero way near as physical as Brazill....watch LB on Special teams Slash.

His stats for that game were 7 receptions for 80 yards. He had his best game.

 

P.S. If you go back and watch the first Chiefs game, you'll be pleasantly surprised with how well Whalen played.

[Jay Kirk]

His stats for that game were 7 receptions for 80 yards. He had his best game.

 

P.S. If you go back and watch the first Chiefs game, you'll be pleasantly surprised with how well Whalen played.

I doubt it lol he likes Whalen as do I

[Coffeedrinker]

4.4 speed to be exact .Evidently stronger as well

As I've said before, I don't care what a 40 time is.  I look at how fast they play and Brazill does not play anywhere as fast as TY.  And when coming out of a break or making a move, he is much more sluggish and slower than Whalen.  (Much meaning noticeably).

[Jay Kirk]

As I've said before, I don't care what a 40 time is.  I look at how fast they play and Brazill does not play anywhere as fast as TY.  And when coming out of a break or making a move, he is much more sluggish and slower than Whalen.  (Much meaning noticeably).

Neither does 90% of the league

[BrentMc11]

His stats for that game were 7 receptions for 80 yards. He had his best game.

 

P.S. If you go back and watch the first Chiefs game, you'll be pleasantly surprised with how well Whalen played.

 

I doubt it lol he likes Whalen as do I

Yep...I really do!!!  It really sucks someone...or 2 will have to go...bums the old LB out a little....

[wig]

Just release Nicks...everything falls into place...rather than find out half way through the season that he really can't play anymore (like the Giants already found out).

You mean the guy that would have had almost three hundred yards more than our #2? Okay. . .

[CR91]

Just release Nicks...everything falls into place...rather than find out half way through the season that he really can't play anymore (like the Giants already found out).

 

what do you have against nicks? he wasnt the only giant that struggled