Erik Walden vs Dwight Freeney (By the numbers)

[Dustin]

Also seen on twitter that PFF has Walden #10 in coverage for 3-4 OLB

 

Yup. He's dropped into coverage 126 times and has allowed 4-7 for 22 yards. His 0.17 yards per cover snaps is 2nd lowest in the league.

 

He's also dead last in pass rush grade FWIW.

 

38th. My fault. 

[Superman]

8.8 for Freeney and 8 even for Walden. 

 

Yeah, that's not that big of a difference. Especially not for a Sam backer vs. a Rush backer.

 

Being fair to Freeney, he was out of position, and he was playing on a bad leg much of the year. 

[Superman]

He's also dead last in pass rush grade FWIW.

 

38th. My fault. 

 

See, there's too many numbers floating around now.

 

What's the difference between pass rush grade and pass rush efficiency?

[Dustin]

Yeah, that's not that big of a difference. Especially not for a Sam backer vs. a Rush backer.

 

Being fair to Freeney, he was out of position, and he was playing on a bad leg much of the year. 

 

Before his injury this year he was at 12.9. Which would put him at #3 in the league. Not that it really matters now tho. 

[Dustin]

See, there's too many numbers floating around now.

 

What's the difference between pass rush grade and pass rush efficiency?

 

Pass rush efficiency is just the raw numbers. In simplest terms it's basically pressure per snap. Pass rush grade is the subjective ranking which means he's either picking up his pressures from the QB holding on to the ball too long or he's getting unblocked pressures.

[Superman]

Before his injury this year he was at 12.9. Which would put him at #3 in the league. Not that it really matters now tho. 

 

Yeah I was gonna mention, he was much better rushing the passer this year than he was last year. Slight differences in responsibility, but he was doing a lot better with the Chargers than he did with us last year.

[Superman]

Pass rush efficiency is just the raw numbers. In simplest terms it's basically pressure per snap. Pass rush grade is the subjective ranking which means he's either picking up his pressures from the QB holding on to the ball too long or he's getting unblocked pressures.

 

Ah.

 

It's all kind of irrelevant, from the OP to all of this. Walden isn't meant to be a pass rush specialist. What we've gotten out of him has been kind of a welcome surprise, if you ask me. 

[Dustin]

Ah.

 

It's all kind of irrelevant, from the OP to all of this. Walden isn't meant to be a pass rush specialist. What we've gotten out of him has been kind of a welcome surprise, if you ask me. 

 

I kind of want a guy who rushes the passer 70% of the time to be able to create some type of pressure. 

[Superman]

I kind of want a guy who rushes the passer 70% of the time to be able to create some type of pressure. 

 

70% of the time?

[Dustin]

70% of the time?

 

[JoKeR]

I kind of want a guy who rushes the passer 70% of the time to be able to create some type of pressure.

Is anyone doing that? I would want that player for the Colts too, if he actually exists.

[Dustin]

Is anyone doing that? I would want that player for the Colts too, if he actually exists.

 

There is this one guy named Mathis lol

[Superman]

69.3% to be exact.

 

 

That's specific to passing downs. (And really, that's probably more passing downs than we intended for Walden to play, partly due to the injuries we've had at OLB.) Add in the running downs, and it's not 70% of his snaps.

[JoKeR]

He's got 25 total pressures out of 329 passing snaps.

[Dustin]

That's specific to passing downs. (And really, that's probably more passing downs than we intended for Walden to play, partly due to the injuries we've had at OLB.) Add in the running downs, and it's not 70% of his snaps.

 

Well yeah, it's kind hard to rush the passer on a running play lol. No player in the NFL (that is a starter) pass rushes on 70% of their snaps.

[Dustin]

He's got 25 total pressures out of 329 passing snaps.

 

He actually has 29. But that's not very good. 

 

Jerry Hughes has played 10 less snaps, but has 24 more pressures.

[JoKeR]

There is this one guy named Mathis lol

He rushes the passer about 82% of time but that not how often he gets a pressure. Out of 431 passing snaps he got 53 total pressures. Or out of 400 snaps he was rushing the passer he got 53 pressures.

[Superman]

Well yeah, it's kind hard to rush the passer on a running play lol. No player in the NFL (that is a starter) pass rushes on 70% of their snaps.

 

My point above, about Walden not being a pass rush specialist, is that his primary contributions don't come as a pass rusher. He primary contribution comes against the run, and I'd guess that 40-50% of his his total snaps come on run plays.

 

As for his PRP, considering he's not a full time pass rusher, it's decent. Better than I anticipated it would be. Compared to full time pass rushers, it's a different story. But compared to guys rushing around 70% of the passing downs that they play, it's actually pretty good.

 

What's really annoying is seeing Jerry Hughes at #2 on that list.

[Dustin]

He rushes the passer about 82% of time but that not how often he gets a pressure. Out of 431 passing snaps he got 53 total pressures. Or out of 400 snaps he was rushing the passer he got 53 pressures.

 

?? I think you're looking at the wrong player. Hughes is #2 on that list.

[JoKeR]

He actually has 29. But that's not very good. 

 

Jerry Hughes has played 10 less snaps, but has 24 more pressures.

He might be better but Hughes is a pass rusher, Walden is more known for being a run stopper and decent in pass coverage.

[JoKeR]

?? I think you're looking at the wrong player. Hughes is #2 on that list.

You said a Robert Mathis gets pressure on the QB 70% of the time, so I was pointing out he doesn't.

[Superman]

He might be better but Hughes is a pass rusher, Walden is more known for being a run stopper and decent in pass coverage.

 

And that's my point. I think Walden's total rush opportunities/percentage should be more like Calvin Pace, around 200 rushes, and around 50-60% of the time. Due to injuries and other setbacks, he's had to rush more often than originally intended.

[JoKeR]

Dustin, are you just saying you'd rather have 2 pass rushers instead of a pass rusher/ run stopper combo?

[Dustin]

My point above, about Walden not being a pass rush specialist, is that his primary contributions don't come as a pass rusher. He primary contribution comes against the run, and I'd guess that 40-50% of his his total snaps come on run plays.

 

As for his PRP, considering he's not a full time pass rusher, it's decent. Better than I anticipated it would be. Compared to full time pass rushers, it's a different story. But compared to guys rushing around 70% of the passing downs that they play, it's actually pretty good.

 

What's really annoying is seeing Jerry Hughes at #2 on that list.

 

Right, but that's 37% (his total pass rushes/total plays) that he's basically ineffective for. That's not very good.

 

And just let me say, I have no problem with the rest of his play, so I hope it doesn't sound like I do. I'm actually surprised by his play in the other 2 phases (especially his coverage where he has been very good at) I'm more annoyed by Manusky keeping him in in situation like this when a player like Cam Johnson (who I don't think gets enough snaps) has already shown to be more effective as a pass rusher. 

[Dustin]

Dustin, are you just saying you'd rather have 2 pass rushers instead of a pass rusher/ run stopper combo?

 

Yes. 

 

Ideally you'd want player who can do both. 

[Dustin]

He might be better but Hughes is a pass rusher, Walden is more known for being a run stopper and decent in pass coverage.

 

Hughes has been playing very well in the run game thus far. Coverage not so much though. 

 

 

You said a Robert Mathis gets pressure on the QB 70% of the time, so I was pointing out he doesn't.

 

That's not what I meant lol. 

[Balzer40]

Yes. 

 

Why? We would get burned constantly if we done that. Walden is a good run stopper and average pass rusher. I would take that everyday of the week and twice on Sunday's over 2 guys that continually get burned on run plays. We got burned for yrs. on defense with Mathis and Freeney being our pass rushers. 

[Dustin]

Why? We would get burned constantly if we done that. Walden is a good run stopper and average pass rusher. I would take that everyday of the week and twice on Sunday's over 2 guys that continually get burned on run plays. We got burned for yrs. on defense with Mathis and Freeney being our pass rushers. 

 

We're being burned on run plays now. It's not like the run defense is any better with Walden than it was with Freeney. 

 

At least back then QBs didn't have 5 seconds to throw the ball. 

[Superman]

Right, but that's 37% (his total pass rushes/total plays) that he's basically ineffective for. That's not very good.

 

And just let me say, I have no problem with the rest of his play, so I hope it doesn't sound like I do. I'm actually surprised by his play in the other 2 phases (especially his coverage where he has been very good at) I'm more annoyed by Manusky keeping him in in situation like this when a player like Cam Johnson (who I don't think gets enough snaps) has already shown to be more effective as a pass rusher. 

 

The bolded is subjective. Just because a pass rusher doesn't get a pressure doesn't mean he's ineffective. I could go into further detail, but I think that statement stands on its own.

 

I'd be fine with Cam Johnson getting more reps in pass rushing situations. (Do you have numbers on Johnson? I don't think he's played anything more than 15-20 snaps so far...) Or someone who is a more effective pass rusher getting those reps. 

[Balzer40]

We're being burned on run plays now. It's not like the run defense is any better with Walden than it was with Freeney. 

 

At least back then QBs didn't have 5 seconds to throw the ball. 

 

 

 

I don't believe that's accurate at all. Every team gets burned occasionally on run plays, but we are much better against the run than we were with Freeney and Mathis as pass rushers. When it was Freeney and Mathis, you could count on the other team running towards Freeney most of the time(even on 3 and long situations) and many many times they would get a 1st down because of Freeney's horribly non-existent run stopping abilities.

[Dustin]

The bolded is subjective. Just because a pass rusher doesn't get a pressure doesn't mean he's ineffective. I could go into further detail, but I think that statement stands on its own.

 

I'd be fine with Cam Johnson getting more reps in pass rushing situations. (Do you have numbers on Johnson? I don't think he's played anything more than 15-20 snaps so far...) Or someone who is a more effective pass rusher getting those reps. 

 

Cam Johnson's grade is 2.2 on pass rushing. Nothing to write home about, but I think he's has a higher ceiling. His raw numbers aren't very good, but in the only games where he's played significant snaps he's played QB that get the ball out faster than anyone (Rivers, Wilson, Manning.)

 

Studebaker has a sack, a hit and a hurry on his 12 pass rushes. All of which came against Houston so take that for what it's worth.

[Dustin]

I don't believe that's accurate at all. Every team gets burned occasionally on run plays, but we are much better against the run than we were with Freeney and Mathis as pass rushers. When it was Freeney and Mathis, you could count on the other team running towards Freeney most of the time(even on 3 and long situations) and many many times they would get a 1st down because of Freeney's horribly non-existent run stopping abilities.

 

YPC by teams against the Colts:

 

2013: 4.4

2012: 5.1

2011: 4.3

2010: 4.6

2009: 4.3

2008: 4.2

2007: 3.8

2006: 5.3

2005: 4.4

2004: 4.6

 

4 seasons above, 1 season at, and 4 under. Like I said, you exchange an average of like .1 YPC for being unable to get pressure from anyone other than one player in a passing league. 

[Rian Huff]

Wow Freeney's numbers are comparable to a guy people complain about every week. Weird.

not to be hard on freeney cuz he was absoultly awesome in are 4-3, he wasnt that great as a LB, and didnt have the strength to get through the o-line to stop the runner

[Balzer40]

YPC by teams against the Colts:

 

2013: 4.4

2012: 5.1

2011: 4.3

2010: 4.6

2009: 4.3

2008: 4.2

2007: 3.8

2006: 5.3

2005: 4.4

2004: 4.6

 

4 seasons above, 1 season at, and 4 under. Like I said, you exchange an average of like .1 YPC for being unable to get pressure from anyone other than one player in a passing league. 

 

 

 

Ok, but I don't think that really tells the whole story. Like I said, It was completely predictable that teams would run right at Freeney when he was here and most of the time they would gain the yardage needed. It was complained about for yrs. here on this very forum. Freeney was gigantic liability against the run. Mathis is somewhat of a liability too against the run and the reason why teams are still running the ball well against us. It's a give and take either way you go, if you have 2 good pass rushers that suck against the run, a passing team will suddenly become a running team, if you have good run stoppers and but they suck in coverage and pass rushing, then a running team will become a passing team. I'd rather have a good pass rusher(Mathis) and a good run stopper(Walden) to defend either way you need to. Ideally, of course you want guys that are great at each, but those guys are far and few between.

[ztboiler]

We're being burned on run plays now. It's not like the run defense is any better with Walden than it was with Freeney. 

 

At least back then QBs didn't have 5 seconds to throw the ball. 

I guess we'll find out this Sunday.

[Dustin]

I guess we'll find out this Sunday.

 

We've been watching it all season. 

[ztboiler]

YPC by teams against the Colts:

 

2013: 4.4

2012: 5.1

2011: 4.3

2010: 4.6

2009: 4.3

2008: 4.2

2007: 3.8

2006: 5.3

2005: 4.4

2004: 4.6

 

4 seasons above, 1 season at, and 4 under. Like I said, you exchange an average of like .1 YPC for being unable to get pressure from anyone other than one player in a passing league. 

You can't compare different schemes and personnel across that many different years in a Freeney/Walden/Mathis relevant conversation.  The only quasi real comparison is 2012 to 2013, and I'm not sure that is very supportive of the point you are trying to make.

[Superman]

YPC by teams against the Colts:

 

2013: 4.4

2012: 5.1

2011: 4.3

2010: 4.6

2009: 4.3

2008: 4.2

2007: 3.8

2006: 5.3

2005: 4.4

2004: 4.6

 

4 seasons above, 1 season at, and 4 under. Like I said, you exchange an average of like .1 YPC for being unable to get pressure from anyone other than one player in a passing league. 

 

That's not an accurate representation of how well or poorly we've defended the run.

[ztboiler]

We've been watching it all season. 

The problem in run defense overall has been a moving target year to year, but the specific problem on display in KC last year is very relevant to the conversation we are having in this thread.  Edge play.  As for what we've been watching this year, the #1 issue in my book has been inconsistent ILB play, and the occassional blown assignment by crashing Mathis (or combination of the two).  We've been pretty sound as a DLine, they are good run stoppers.

[Dustin]

That's not an accurate representation of how well or poorly we've defended the run.

 

I picked the simplest one. How about DVOA?

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef2009

 

Regardless, the run defense is about on par to what we've had over the past 10 years.