Would Polian have done this trade?

[BrentMc11]

These owners kill me, conducting business with many peers who are fornicators, adulterers, alcoholics and druggies, yet expect their players to be some kind of moral compass to society. You obviously don't want to deal with someone who's a repeat offender and isn't trying to change, but people make mistakes. Forgiveness is a noble character trait as well

I totally agree with forgiveness.....I also dealt with HR issues for 22 years....

Yes different than the Not for Long, yet the money these guys have to pay....smart decisions charter wise need to be at the forefront. It is their money being spent...like I said...my opinion...been their in the business world on good and bad sides...

[BrentMc11]

We potentially got a major bargain, considering his skill-set. They easily could've asked for a 1st if they hadn't demoted him before the season.

I hope you are correct....not seeing him in the top 5 as a CB after being demoted to second team...time will tell, and I hope the change of scenery and the fiery Pagano make a difference...in attitude and play.

[YOUR GM]

I hope you are correct....not seeing him in the top 5 as a CB after being demoted to second team...time will tell, and I hope the change of scenery and the fiery Pagano make a difference...in attitude and play.

From what I've read, Davis' demotion was more Philbin making an example of him than it was a result of his play. His play did take a dip last year, but he is still a top 10 CB, in my eyes. Philbin appears to be a bit of a control freak, and I think he's totally lost the Dolphins

[BrentMc11]

From what I've read, Davis' demotion was more Philbin making an example of him than it was a result of his play. His play did take a dip last year, but he is still a top 10 CB, in my eyes. Philbin appears to be a bit of a control freak, and I think he's totally lost the Dolphins

Management 101...give an employee clear expectations leaving no misinterpretation on how you want he or she to do the job. He was not meeting expectations...and nor did Chad Johnson...they are no longer Dolphins.....

If his head and heart is here.......and plays 100%...the sky is the limit.

[YOUR GM]

I totally agree with forgiveness.....I also dealt with HR issues for 22 years....

Yes different than the Not for Long, yet the money these guys have to pay....smart decisions charter wise need to be at the forefront. It is their money being spent...like I said...my opinion...been their in the business world on good and bad sides...

I understand that. Far be it from me to tell someone else how to spend their money. I just think sometimes, there's more to a player's situation that a lot of owners make hasty judgments about, and they miss out on talent.

Kenny Britt, on the other hand, I wouldn't touch with a 10 ft pole. That guy is a wreck

[YOUR GM]

Management 101...give an employee clear expectations leaving no misinterpretation on how you want he or she to do the job. He was not meeting expectations...and nor did Chad Johnson...they are no longer Dolphins.....

If his head and heart is here.......and plays 100%...the sky is the limit.

Philbin won't be either too much longer, at this rate. :stats:

[John Waylon]

...

Sure. Right after he signed a good defensive tackle, and drafted a good offensive linemen.

[BrentMc11]

Philbin won't be either too much longer, at this rate. :stats:

I come from the school...ya cannot let the inmates run the asylum......Make no mistake...the Dolphins are not good......I like the little emoticon..... Gotta run....

[unitaswestand]

Interesting what Polian said a few weeks ago about Davis that might give insight:

Polian: “Watching (Davis) in practice he jumps at you with his feet and hip movement … He should be a guy who’s (elite).

Ireland: "He’s got to turn those flashes into consistencies. Even when he does something wrong, he still looks athletically skiilled. … If he can get his fundamentals and techniques and eyes all together he’s going to be a great player in this league.

Polian: His talent leaps at you.”

Ireland: "It leaps and jumps at you. And when he hits you – we’re not tackling live – you feel it.”

[StewieG]

...

Sure. Right after he signed a good defensive tackle, and drafted a good offensive linemen.

So never? Lol.

[Superman]

Interesting what Polian said a few weeks ago about Davis that might give insight:

Polian: “Watching (Davis) in practice he jumps at you with his feet and hip movement … He should be a guy who’s (elite).

Ireland: "He’s got to turn those flashes into consistencies. Even when he does something wrong, he still looks athletically skiilled. … If he can get his fundamentals and techniques and eyes all together he’s going to be a great player in this league.

Polian: His talent leaps at you.”

Ireland: "It leaps and jumps at you. And when he hits you – we’re not tackling live – you feel it.”

That's what excites me the most about this move. Chuck Pagano is a renowned defensive backs specialist. If there's any coach you'd want influencing Vontae Davis right now, it's Pagano.

[Superman]

So never? Lol.

Corey Simon, Booger McFarland, Tarik Glenn, Jake Scott, Ryan Lilja, Ryan Diem, etc.

I get that Polian let some key positions slide later in his time here, but ...

Oh, never mind. I give up.

[BrentMc11]

Interesting what Polian said a few weeks ago about Davis that might give insight:

Polian: “Watching (Davis) in practice he jumps at you with his feet and hip movement … He should be a guy who’s (elite).

Ireland: "He’s got to turn those flashes into consistencies. Even when he does something wrong, he still looks athletically skiilled. … If he can get his fundamentals and techniques and eyes all together he’s going to be a great player in this league.

Polian: His talent leaps at you.”

Ireland: "It leaps and jumps at you. And when he hits you – we’re not tackling live – you feel it.”

I love the quote....thanks....head has to be on straight too....Look forward to seeing the talent...leap at us at LOS!!!!!

[Susie Q]

Corey Simon, Booger McFarland, Tarik Glenn, Jake Scott, Ryan Lilja, Ryan Diem, etc.

I get that Polian let some key positions slide later in his time here, but ...

Oh, never mind. I give up.

You may as well looks like your fighting a loosing battle in this thread.

[BrentMc11]

You may as well looks like your fighting a loosing battle in this thread.

Strong opinions in all kinds of directions....it was fun though....I cannot believe I stayed on here......but it was fun...

[Fatboyslim11]

Corey Simon, Booger McFarland, Tarik Glenn, Jake Scott, Ryan Lilja, Ryan Diem, etc.

I get that Polian let some key positions slide later in his time here, but ...

Oh, never mind. I give up.

Glenn was drafted by Bill Tobin in 1997. Polian for whatever reasons was terrible at drafting linemen on both sides of the ball. Heck, we are still trying to figure out what really happened to Simon. Polian did have this fixation that he would only acquire certain types of players and was unwilling to deviate from his standard even if making a trade or selectively signing a key free agent would better the team. His "my way or the highway" approach - along with his nepotism finally caught up with him. BTW, I hope Polian stop telling everyone that he was fired from the Colts solely because we did not have a viable backup QB to replace Manning.

[chrisfarley]

Polian is not stupid.

[Fatboyslim11]

You may as well looks like your fighting a loosing battle in this thread.

I like the debate and don't look at it as winning or losing. Different people have different perspectives and post accordingly.

[Superman]

Glenn was drafted by Bill Tobin in 1997. Polian for whatever reasons was terrible at drafting linemen on both sides of the ball. Heck, we are still trying to figure out what really happened to Simon. Polian did have this fixation that he would only acquire certain types of players and was unwilling to deviate from his standard even if making a trade or selectively signing a key free agent would better the team. His "my way or the highway" approach - along with his nepotism finally caught up with him. BTW, I hope Polian stop telling everyone that he was fired from the Colts solely because we did not have a viable backup QB to replace Manning.

Good point about Glenn. There's still the others.

I agree that Polian struggled at drafting offensive linemen and defensive tackles. Freeney, Mathis, Brock, etc. were good draft picks at end. Brock was used as a tackle, but he's more of a five-tech. There were other defensive linemen, including tackles, that were good, but didn't work out here (Quinn Pitcock, for instance).

I also agree that not having a good backup for Manning isn't the reason Polian was fired.

I just don't agree that he never made trades, never dabbled in free agency. The very premise of this thread is flawed. When Polian was in his first year with the Colts, he made a trade very similar to this one for a cornerback, and he also signed another corner in free agency. The idea that he wouldn't have done something like this is devoid of perspective.

[GoColts8818]

Glenn was drafted by Bill Tobin in 1997. Polian for whatever reasons was terrible at drafting linemen on both sides of the ball. Heck, we are still trying to figure out what really happened to Simon. Polian did have this fixation that he would only acquire certain types of players and was unwilling to deviate from his standard even if making a trade or selectively signing a key free agent would better the team. His "my way or the highway" approach - along with his nepotism finally caught up with him. BTW, I hope Polian stop telling everyone that he was fired from the Colts solely because we did not have a viable backup QB to replace Manning.

Not true. While Glenn was here he got here along with Medows they were the only ones who was here when Polian got here that had a long impact here and while the line faded towards the end from 98 till the middle of 07 it was as good as any line in the league. Pollian found Jeff Saturday as an undrafted free agent. He drafted Ryan Diem, Jake Scott, Charlie Johnson and Rick DeMulling. He also found Ryan Lilja as undrafted free agent. All of which were key plays on our line for a lot of years. If Castonzo pans out he'll get credit for him as well.

As for Defense keep in mind Polian is the same man who draft Bruce Smith in Buffalo. Here he drafted Freeney and Mathis as well as snagging Brock when the Eagles ran out of money to sign him. So he gets credit for all those players and while they are all ends they are still D-linemen.

So while you can say he never found a great DT in the draft and while the line faded towards the end I would disagree with the idea that he was horrible with it. Also maybe the biggest free agency signing and trade he made both involved DTs. Corey Simon and Booger. That was the one area he seemed opened to free agency along with trades as they also signed Reagor as a free agent and tried to trade for the Bills DT that failed the physical.

[stat2883]

BTW, I hope Polian stop telling everyone that he was fired from the Colts solely because we did not have a viable backup QB to replace Manning.

He's already said it was more than just that. As for him sticking to his guns and letting guys slide past, you can't say how they would have performed here or how it would have turned out, so its all just speculation.

[GoColts8818]

Good point about Glenn. There's still the others.

I agree that Polian struggled at drafting offensive linemen and defensive tackles. Freeney, Mathis, Brock, etc. were good draft picks at end. Brock was used as a tackle, but he's more of a five-tech. There were other defensive linemen, including tackles, that were good, but didn't work out here (Quinn Pitcock, for instance).

I also agree that not having a good backup for Manning isn't the reason Polian was fired.

I just don't agree that he never made trades, never dabbled in free agency. The very premise of this thread is flawed. When Polian was in his first year with the Colts, he made a trade very similar to this one for a cornerback, and he also signed another corner in free agency. The idea that he wouldn't have done something like this is devoid of perspective.

Right people are trying to compare Polian tweaking a Super Bowl team to Grigson trying to rebuild a team. When Polian was rebuilding the Colts he did a lot of what Grigson is doing right now. Build a young offense around the rookie QB so they can grow up together and spend money in free agency and make trades to get vets to make to the defense better.

[Fatboyslim11]

Good point about Glenn. There's still the others.

I agree that Polian struggled at drafting offensive linemen and defensive tackles. Freeney, Mathis, Brock, etc. were good draft picks at end. Brock was used as a tackle, but he's more of a five-tech. There were other defensive linemen, including tackles, that were good, but didn't work out here (Quinn Pitcock, for instance).

I also agree that not having a good backup for Manning isn't the reason Polian was fired.

I just don't agree that he never made trades, never dabbled in free agency. The very premise of this thread is flawed. When Polian was in his first year with the Colts, he made a trade very similar to this one for a cornerback, and he also signed another corner in free agency. WThe idea that he wouldn't have done something like this is devoid of perspective.

You have to objectively look at Polian's complete body of work to gain perspective and not just cherry pick a few of his moderate success stories and say they define his tenure. Polian would rarely make a trade and it was even less rare for him to participate in free agency during his 1998 to 2011 stint in Indy. An unbiased review of his hits and misses as Colts GM is essential; otherwise the discussion is devoid of perspective.

[Superman]

You have to objectively look at Polian's complete body of work to gain perspective and not just cherry pick a few of his moderate success stories and say they define his tenure. Polian would rarely make a trade and it was even less rare for him to participate in free agency during his 1998 to 2011 stint in Indy. An unbiased review of his hits and misses as Colts GM is essential; otherwise the discussion is devoid of perspective.

We've had that discussion a hundred times, taking a comprehensive look at his tenure. This thread is about one move. One move that practically mirrors what Polian did in his first year here, yet people are pretending that he never would have made this trade because they only remember him preaching about building through the draft late in his time here.

[Fatboyslim11]

He's already said it was more than just that. As for him sticking to his guns and letting guys slide past, you can't say how they would have performed here or how it would have turned out, so its all just speculation.

As long as we agree that the lack of a viable backup QB as the sole reason for him being fired excuse is a crock.

[GoColts8818]

You have to objectively look at Polian's complete body of work to gain perspective and not just cherry pick a few of his moderate success stories and say they define his tenure. Polian would rarely make a trade and it was even less rare for him to participate in free agency during his 1998 to 2011 stint in Indy. An unbiased review of his hits and misses as Colts GM is essential; otherwise the discussion is devoid of perspective.

So Jeff Saturday Dwight Freeney, and Robert Mathis all three of which are many time pro-bowlers are moderate successes? That's not even counting Bruce Smith who is one of the greatest to ever play the game.

Objectively would mean looking at it and realizing from 98 to 07 the Colts o-line was as good as any line in football and giving him credit for it. Defensively if you want to be objective about this then you have to give him credit for Freeney and Mathis and acknowledge that as much as Polian might have struggled with DTs he was that good with DEs and not just try to cling to an argument that Polian was no good at his job because someone doesn't like him. I agree by the end Polian had run his course and it was time for him to go with that said you don't win at the level the Colts did while he was here and not be good at your job.

[GoColts8818]

We've had that discussion a hundred times, taking a comprehensive look at his tenure. This thread is about one move. One move that practically mirrors what Polian did in his first year here, yet people are pretending that he never would have made this trade because they only remember him preaching about building through the draft late in his time here.

Which is what has proven to be the model for Super Bowl contending teams for the most part. Like I said before this whole thing is flawed because people aren't taking into account that Polian at the end was trying to tweak a Super Bowl contending team while as Grigson is rebuilding the team. LIke you said Superman when Polian got here if you honestly look at it he's doing a lot of the same moves Girgson is doing. If anything you could argue Polian was more active in free agency when he first got here than Grigson has been so far.

I don't think Polian would have made this trade because of the off-the field issues with Davis but I do think if he was in this spot he would be open to trades in general if he was rebuilding the team from the ground up.

[stat2883]

As long as we agree that the lack of a viable backup QB as the sole reason for him being fired excuse is a crock.

yup that we agree on, just stating that Polian has already acknowledged as much, despite what other sources may say.

[Fatboyslim11]

We've had that discussion a hundred times, taking a comprehensive look at his tenure. This thread is about one move. One move that practically mirrors what Polian did in his first year here, yet people are pretending that he never would have made this trade because they only remember him preaching about building through the draft late in his time here.

Ok, what specific trade or trades or other acquisitions did Polian make in 1998 that are comparable to the Davis acquisition?

[GoColts8818]

Ok, what specific trade or trades or other acquisitions did Polian make in 1998 that are comparable to the Davis acquisition?

Jeff Burris and Tyrone Poole alhough Burris might have been a free agent but Poole was a trade.

[stat2883]

As long as we agree that the lack of a viable backup QB as the sole reason for him being fired excuse is a crock.

Actually one thing I did hear (don't remember where any more) was that he and Irsay butted heads over Luck/RG3/Manning decision. Although, I have absolutely no idea if there is any truth to that. However, even if that debate did happen, I'm sure his fate was already sealed before that.

[GoColts8818]

Actually one thing I did hear (don't remember where any more) was that he and Irsay butted heads over Luck/RG3/Manning decision. Although, I have absolutely no idea if there is any truth to that. However, even if that debate did happen, I'm sure his fate was already sealed before that.

I have a friend who would know about the situation and if people don't believe this that's fine but he told me Polian wanted to keep Manning and trade the pick to get more talent to rebuild around Manning and have one more run. Same person told me Irsay wanted Luck all along but in his perfect world he wanted Manning and Luck but as we saw was more married to Luck than Manning.

[Superman]

Ok, what specific trade or trades or other acquisitions did Polian make in 1998 that are comparable to the Davis acquisition?

Jeff Burris and Tyrone Poole alhough Burris might have been a free agent but Poole was a trade.

Burris was a free agent. Poole was a trade. Two of the first personnel moves Polian made. I believe Poole was acquired for a 3rd rounder, the first pick in the 3rd round in 1998. He was on the outs with the staff in Carolina, and Polian made a move for him. Also similar is that Polian's move was for a player from the team that Polian had just come from, similar to Grigson dealing with the Eagles the way he has been.

It's the same thing as the Davis trade.

[stat2883]

I have a friend who would know about the situation and if people don't believe this that's fine but he told me Polian wanted to keep Manning and trade the pick to get more talent to rebuild around Manning and have one more run. Same person told me Irsay wanted Luck all along but in his perfect world he wanted Manning and Luck but as we saw was more married to Luck than Manning.

That's similar to what I had heard. After the decision to cut ties with Manning, the RG3/Luck debate happened. I knew Irsay and Luck was a done deal all along. As for whether or not Polian and Irsay actually butted heads over Luck/RG3 after Manning was released, I can't say for certain and your friend is probably a more credible source than my fuzzy memory.

Either way, I think the way it worked out is actually best long term.

[GoColts8818]

Burris was a free agent. Poole was a trade. Two of the first personnel moves Polian made. I believe Poole was acquired for a 3rd rounder, the first pick in the 3rd round in 1998. He was on the outs with the staff in Carolina, and Polian made a move for him. Also similar is that Polian's move was for a player from the team that Polian had just come from, similar to Grigson dealing with the Eagles the way he has been.

It's the same thing as the Davis trade.

I know he also brought in guys like Cota, Bennett, an Bratzke some of those might have been after 98 and in 99 but those are other players he brought in as well with two of them Bennett and Cota having ties to Polian at his old stomping grounds.

[Fatboyslim11]

So Jeff Saturday Dwight Freeney, and Robert Mathis all three of which are many time pro-bowlers are moderate successes? That's not even counting Bruce Smith who is one of the greatest to ever play the game.

Objectively would mean looking at it and realizing from 98 to 07 the Colts o-line was as good as any line in football and giving him credit for it. Defensively if you want to be objective about this then you have to give him credit for Freeney and Mathis and acknowledge that as much as Polian might have struggled with DTs he was that good with DEs and not just try to cling to an argument that Polian was no good at his job because someone doesn't like him. I agree by the end Polian had run his course and it was time for him to go with that said you don't win at the level the Colts did while he was here and not be good at your job.

.

The Colts never had a O line that was one of the better lines in the NFL at any point during Polian's tenure. At best, the line was ok to sorta good. Even Faulk had trouble running behind our O line before he was traded away (another stupid move among many by Polian). Edge was very talented and his skills masked a lot of issues with the line rub blocking. manning's quick release masked a lot of problems with our pass blocking. The best thing you can say about the Polian era is we were a heckuva of a soft team - good in the regular seasons but generally exposed by other playoff teams as being as soft as butter in the playoffs, we were the poster chil in the 2000s for playoff one and done.

[GoColts8818]

That's similar to what I had heard. After the decision to cut ties with Manning, the RG3/Luck debate happened. I knew Irsay and Luck was a done deal all along. As for whether or not Polian and Irsay actually butted heads over Luck/RG3 after Manning was released, I can't say for certain and your friend is probably a more credible source than my fuzzy memory.

Either way, I think the way it worked out is actually best long term.

Polian was long gone by the time the Manning was released. Polian was fired the day after the season while Manning wasn't released till we had too. I can tell you my friend did say that ONE of the sticking points was Polian wanting to trade the Luck pick and Irsay wanting the Luck pick. Again in his perfect little world irsay wanted both guys. Polian wanted to reload make one more run with Manning and retire when Manning wrapped up pretty much leaving us in a rebuilding phase as he walked out the door not really caring about the future. Irsay didn't want that for the team and looking at recent poor events pulled the plug on the Polian. Again if people want to challenge this they can they don't have to believe me.

[Superman]

.

The Colts never had a O line that was one of the better lines in the NFL at any point during Polian's tenure. At best, the line was ok to sorta good. Even Faulk had trouble running behind our O line before he was traded away (another stupid move among many by Polian). Edge was very talented and his skills masked a lot of issues with the line rub blocking. manning's quick release masked a lot of problems with our pass blocking. The best thing you can say about the Polian era is we were a heckuva of a soft team - good in the regular seasons but generally exposed by other playoff teams as being as soft as butter in the playoffs, we were the poster chil in the 2000s for playoff one and done.

Colts had one of the best offensive lines in the game from 99 to 07. Not the best, but you don't put together that string of 1,000+ rushers, plus several seasons with Manning staying clean, without having a really good line. I'm not going as far as GC8818 is; they weren't the best. But they were dang good, and critically acclaimed as well.

[GoColts8818]

.

The Colts never had a O line that was one of the better lines in the NFL at any point during Polian's tenure. At best, the line was ok to sorta good. Even Faulk had trouble running behind our O line before he was traded away (another stupid move among many by Polian). Edge was very talented and his skills masked a lot of issues with the line rub blocking. manning's quick release masked a lot of problems with our pass blocking. The best thing you can say about the Polian era is we were a heckuva of a soft team - good in the regular seasons but generally exposed by other playoff teams as being as soft as butter in the playoffs, we were the poster chil in the 2000s for playoff one and done.

Really funny that o-line produced the League's leading rusher during Edge's first two years here. That line also produced a 1,000 yard back every year but one from 98 to 07 and that one year was the year Edge was coming off major knee surgery. That line lead us to a Super Bowl win in 2006 and also had one of the least sacked QBs in the NFL and no not all of that was Manning's release. If that isn't as good as any line in the NFL it's pretty darn good anyway you want to cut it. Again if you want to be objective about this then you have to look at the results and from 98 to 07 it's hard to find an o-line that was much better than the Colts and that means accepting that rather than trying to make excuses for it because it doesn't fit your argument. From 08 to 11 yes it was bad and Polian takes the blame for that as well but three years doesn't erase what happened during the first 10.

Now we are back to the soft argument... A soft team doesn't go into Baltimore and win on the road in the playoffs and the come back from down 21 points on the Pats at half-time in the AFCCG and then beat the Bears physically in the rain. Did the Colts have playoff let downs? Yes but I would be real careful about calling them soft.

[stat2883]

Polian was long gone by the time the Manning was released. Polian was fired the day after the season while Manning wasn't released till we had too. I can tell you my friend did say that ONE of the sticking points was Polian wanting to trade the Luck pick and Irsay wanting the Luck pick. Again in his perfect little world irsay wanted both guys. Polian wanted to reload make one more run with Manning and retire when Manning wrapped up pretty much leaving us in a rebuilding phase as he walked out the door not really caring about the future. Irsay didn't want that for the team and looking at recent poor events pulled the plug on the Polian. Again if people want to challenge this they can they don't have to believe me.

Ok, so then the whole Luck/RG3 debate probably never happened then - unless it was something that flared up over the course of conversations during the season. I forgot how soon Polian was out.