Can't See The Forest For The Trees?

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Collie is way pasted that, it's been years now.

No, it hasn't. It has been one year and 6 months since the last "KNOWN" concussion. Granted he played a full season without another known concussion. But that is not some magic demarcation line that implies anything regarding concussion recovery. You simply do not have enough information to say whether or not he is actually past anything concussion related.

Again, he is now more likely to suffer another concussion as the result of lighter hits. Because the brain damage caused by concussions generally (much less grade 3 concussions) is indeed accumulative from hit to hit even though a player may appear to fully recover. And before someone goes there....the implication that this affect only occurs after the initial concussion and not all subsequent concussions is silly.

[Superman]

Neither you nor I can say.

Is there any evidence that he's still experiencing symptoms? He's been examined and cleared for activity by medical professionals. Doesn't the fact that he just played an entire season of FOOTBALL(!) without incident indicate that he's not still experiencing symptoms?

We all watched him lay there on the ground out cold after his second concussion (grade 3 concussion = most severe) . So Collie did in fact go through second concussion syndrome. As a result he is now more likely to suffer another concussion as the result of lighter hits. Because the brain damage caused by concussions generally (much less grade 3 concussions) is indeed accumulative from hit to hit even when players appear to fully recover. ONLY the NFL tries to say there is not enough information to draw that conclusion. And I think it would be intellectually dishonest to feign not understanding why the NFL would take that position.

Repeat concussions cause cumulative effects on the brain. Successive concussions can have devastating consequences, including brain swelling, permanent brain damage, long-term disabilities, or even death. - WebMd

Really not sure what the argument is? The notion that Austin Collie is not now more susceptible to future concussions is laughable and ignores reality. John Mackey's story is now infamous....and anyone putting forward the notion that Austin Collie is tougher than John Mackey is off their rocker. Collie is indeed more susceptible to future and more severe concussions.

Nothing suggests that a person who has suffered a concussion is more susceptible to another concussion that anyone else once he is no longer experiencing symptoms. The research indicates that the cumulative effects of repeat concussions can have a compound impact on the health of the brain, absolutely. So an individual who has previously been concussed is at greater risk of long-term brain injury and memory loss, but is not necessarily at greater risk of being concussed again, once the symptoms have gone away completely.

Same thing for lighter hits. The research indicates that an individual who has been concussed and is still experiencing even so-called "light symptoms" is more susceptible to another concussion, maybe even more severe, even with lighter hits. But only while still experiencing symptoms. Not indefinitely. It's not established how long that period may be, but I would think it's safe to assume that a year and a half later, with another season of football in there, after being examined by medical professionals and cleared for activity, would establish that the symptoms are no longer there.

Again, from the article:

Second impact syndrome occurs when an athlete returns to sport too early after suffering from an initial concussion.

...

Any athlete may be at risk for SIS if he/she returns to sports competition while still experiencing the symptoms from an initial injury.

...

The key to preventing SIS is to ensure that athletes do not return to sport with any post-concussion symptoms.

You're painting this picture of a player who has suffered a concussion in the past, and is now at risk of another concussion if someone hugs him too tight. And will be at risk for the rest of his life. That's not what the research says.

If this were last offseason, and you were saying that Collie was at greater risk, I'd agree with you. But he just played a year of football, took plenty of hits, and had no symptoms of concussion or brain trauma. At what point are you willing to say that Collie isn't suffering from symptoms anymore?

[Superman]

Another thing: Second incident syndrome (SIS) can even mean that contact that would not otherwise be likely to directly result in a concussion or any notable brain trauma can result in a concussion. A person can be hit in the chest or the back, causing the head to snap back, and have another incident. It doesn't even necessarily take any violent impact. The key, however, is that they are still experiencing symptoms. This risk doesn't exist indefinitely.

Considering the fact that Collie just played a full season, during which he took plenty of hits that would be likely to result in a brain injury for a person still at risk for SIS because of still experiencing symptoms, it's unlikely that he is in fact still experiencing symptoms from his brain injuries in 2010.

I'm not trying to make light of this situation. I'm not saying that Collie is tough and can handle it. He should be more concerned about the effect of a concussion, or even relatively lighter brain trauma, because the cumulative effect of repeat concussions brings compounded risk long term. That's absolutely true. I'm just saying that he's not at higher risk of further concussions simply because he suffered one in the past. That's not what the cited article states, nor has that been concluded by any research I've read. I've read a lot of this in the past couple of years, but I'm not an expert. Not even close. I wouldn't be surprised to see research that indicates what you're saying. But that's not been definitively stated by anyone who is grossly involved in this issue, not that I've seen.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Is there any evidence that he's still experiencing symptoms?

No.

He's been examined and cleared for activity by medical professionals.

Yes.

Doesn't the fact that he just played an entire season of FOOTBALL(!) without incident indicate that he's not still experiencing symptoms?

It could but you cannot state that for a fact. It could just as easily indicate that he has not "reported" anymore symptoms.

Nothing suggests that a person who has suffered a concussion is more susceptible to another concussion that anyone else once he is no longer experiencing symptoms.

That is incorrect. Reality itself suggests it; Collie was cleared after the November 7, 2010 game (which means he could not have been reporting anymore symptoms). He played against the Patriots and more than likely suffered a 2nd concussion in that game. And was then cleared to play in week 15 and suffered yet another concussion. Again, concussions are as a matter of fact cumulative from hit to hit even when players appear to fully recover. So the facts themselves suggests that a person who has suffered a concussion is more susceptible to another concussion even after symptoms have disappeared (which they had to have in order to be cleared).

...research indicates that the cumulative effects of repeat concussions can have a compound impact on the health of the brain, absolutely. So an individual who has previously been concussed is at greater risk of long-term brain injury and memory loss, but is not necessarily at greater risk of being concussed again, once the symptoms have gone away completely.

That flies in the face of our experience with Austin Collie himself. Either the concussion symptoms did completely go away and he was cleared to play against the Patriots. In which case he should not have had any problems. Or the lack of symptoms simply is not a reliable arbiter when determining if a player is at risk. Which is it?

Again, concussions are as a matter of fact cumulative from hit to hit even when players appear to fully recover.

You're painting this picture of a player who has suffered a concussion in the past, and is now at risk of another concussion if someone hugs him too tight.

I'll let that comment stand on it's own.

If this were last off-season, and you were saying that Collie was at greater risk, I'd agree with you.

Why? He was cleared to play last off-season (just like he was cleared to play prior to the November 21, 2010 game and then again prior to the December 19, 2010 game). As you said above, he'd been examined and cleared for activity by medical professionals. And there wasn't any evidence that he was still experiencing symptoms. So by your own thesis you should not agree that Collie was at any greater risk last off-season than this one. That is a logical fallacy.

We will agree to disagree.

[bahhummbug]

My thoughts exactly. Maybe I am overboard, and I don't want to burn'em out...but a lot of guys from the 1st unit on both sides of the ball should get a lot of minutes together.

I agree about pre season being very important I also like the early bye week to tweek OFF or DEF deficiencies

[bahhummbug]

IMO noone has the answers to concussions symptoms, return rate or long term effects.Some serious study should be done in light of recent events.NFL is a multi billion dollar business spend some more on players health.

[Coffeedrinker]

Why do people think Collie is more concussion prone. He's as concussion prone as anyone else, maybe even less so because of his special helmet. Should Rodgers hang it up if he gets another concussion?

I don't get it either.

It's because saying so fits into an agenda. Why a fan would have an agenda on a message board, I don't know.

As far a concussions there are some studies that show that once a player receives a concussion they are more likely to get another concussion. The thought being that since brain cells never regenerate it seems to make sense. The problems with those studies is they deal with a limited group and they cannot account for other factors that may make a player more apt to get another concussion after the first. Because it would be unethical to bop a bunch of people in a study on the head to give them a concussion and then see how many of them get another concussion sometime in the future.

Lastly, to get back on topic: 17 of 20 new coaches, 40 new players, an offensive line that will feature 5 guys who have never played together, a rookie QB, two rookie TEs, a new offensive philosophy, a new defensive philosophy and a new special teams philosophy is not usually the recipe for immediate success or even immediate mediocrity. Those are the things you do when you are beginning on your five year plan.

Pagano could be the best coach in the history of the NFL and get everyone buying into the system and playing mistake free football from day one but I don't think so. It's possible they Colts could get to .500 or above, it's the NFL and anything can truly happen but it's not very likely.

[Superman]

It could but you cannot state that for a fact. It could just as easily indicate that he has not "reported" anymore symptoms.

It's been a year and a half. I think at a certain point you have to admit that you're reaching with this.

That is incorrect. Reality itself suggests it; Collie was cleared after the November 7, 2010 game (which means he could not have been reporting anymore symptoms). He played against the Patriots and more than likely suffered a 2nd concussion in that game. And was then cleared to play in week 15 and suffered yet another concussion. Again, concussions are as a matter of fact cumulative from hit to hit even when players appear to fully recover. So the facts themselves suggests that a person who has suffered a concussion is more susceptible to another concussion even after symptoms have disappeared (which they had to have in order to be cleared).

The first incident was on November 7th. The second incident was on November 21st. The third was on December 19th. We're talking six weeks. Not a year and a half.

In the year and a half since then, the NFL has implemented policies that require a third party medical evaluation to certify that a player who suffers from concussion-like symptoms is no longer experiencing those symptoms. If Collie's initial incident happened in 2012, he wouldn't have been back on the field two weeks later. In the past year and a half, the attention and procedures regarding brain injuries have been ramped up quite a bit. And, quite frankly, the Colts didn't handle the situation with the care they should have, even by 2010 standards.

There is no report citing any medical professional who examined Collie during or after the Patriots game on November 21st who diagnosed him with a concussion related to that game. You may think it's more than likely that he suffered one, and it's entirely possible, seeing as how it was only two weeks removed from a direct blow to the head. He could have experienced SIS in that game from any amount of force he would take in the course of a normal football game, in other words, without a direct blow to the head. He didn't appear to get hit in the head during that game before he was removed.

However, that in itself indicates that at this point, a year and a half removed from the third incident, and after playing an entire season without incident, that he is no longer experiencing any symptoms. If he were still prone to SIS, as he likely was November 21st, 2010, the contact he had throughout last season likely would have triggered another incident.

That flies in the face of our experience with Austin Collie himself. Either the concussion symptoms did completely go away and he was cleared to play against the Patriots. In which case he should not have had any problems. Or the lack of symptoms simply is not a reliable arbiter when determining if a player is at risk. Which is it?

Or a third, more likely option, as I stated above: He should not have been cleared to play November 21st, or December 19th, because he was still experiencing symptoms. I highly doubt that he would be cleared under the same circumstances now. The fact that he didn't sustain a direct blow to the head on November 21st, and was still removed from the game (and sat down for a month) suggests that he was in fact still suffering from symptoms from two weeks prior, and that's not a stretch to believe.

Again, concussions are as a matter of fact cumulative from hit to hit even when players appear to fully recover.

I am not saying that the effect of concussions is not cumulative and can be compounded; it obviously is. I am saying there's no research I've seen that indicates a player who suffered from a concussion is at higher risk for subsequent concussions.

Why? He was cleared to play last off-season (just like he was cleared to play prior to the November 21, 2010 game and then again prior to the December 19, 2010 game). As you said above, he'd been examined and cleared for activity by medical professionals. And there wasn't any evidence that he was still experiencing symptoms. So by your own thesis you should not agree that Collie was at any greater risk last off-season than this one. That is a logical fallacy.

It is not.

Prior to last season, Collie had not played football. Granted, 8 months passed between December and August, and generally speaking that's enough time for concussion symptoms to subside, although not necessarily. But we had no idea whether he could withstand the physical rigors of NFL football before last season. He very well could have gone out in the first preseason game, caught a pass, been tackled, and suffered SIS without a direct blow to the head. That didn't happen. He played the entire season without incident, which lends to the idea that he is NOT still demonstrating symptoms, and it lends to the idea that he's not concussion-prone.

We will agree to disagree.

That's fine. There's nothing wrong with being concerned with his well-being. I just think your miscategorizing him as frail, suggesting that one good hit will end his career, and that's not the case. One good hit to his head has the potential to be much more damaging him than it does to a player who hasn't suffered a concussion (or two, or possibly three), especially long-term. I don't want anyone to get hit in the head like that. But the research doesn't say that his previous concussions leave him at greater risk than other players when it comes to routine contact.

[OLD FAN MAN]

It's because saying so fits into an agenda. Why a fan would have an agenda on a message board, I don't know.

As far a concussions there are some studies that show that once a player receives a concussion they are more likely to get another concussion. The thought being that since brain cells never regenerate it seems to make sense. The problems with those studies is they deal with a limited group and they cannot account for other factors that may make a player more apt to get another concussion after the first. Because it would be unethical to bop a bunch of people in a study on the head to give them a concussion and then see how many of them get another concussion sometime in the future.

Lastly, to get back on topic: 17 of 20 new coaches, 40 new players, an offensive line that will feature 5 guys who have never played together, a rookie QB, two rookie TEs, a new offensive philosophy, a new defensive philosophy and a new special teams philosophy is not usually the recipe for immediate success or even immediate mediocrity. Those are the things you do when you are beginning on your five year plan.

Pagano could be the best coach in the history of the NFL and get everyone buying into the system and playing mistake free football from day one but I don't think so. It's possible they Colts could get to .500 or above, it's the NFL and anything can truly happen but it's not very likely.

[Gavin]

The power of motivation can do big things, example lombardi, get ready for us to be in the playoffs.The same players who didnt show big things, could in a new system.

[OLD FAN MAN]

I love the enthusiasm and optimism, but I think your underestimating just how bad our Corners were both in coverage and tackling after the catch and if Castonzo has the same year he did last year. Luck will be a human pin cushion, same with Reitz, thats not to say that every play they were in on they were bad, they had a few good moments but they consistently got beat

That was under a different system that we looked bad, and i agree casto got beat alot. our new coaches wont let him start if he cant do the job. this year we are going to go after the ball on defense instead of waiting for them to catch the ball then tackle, we may have some sleepers at cb, but i admit it is a weak spot,but i think our coaches will fix it

[Coffeedrinker]

The power of motivation can do big things, example lombardi, get ready for us to be in the playoffs.The same players who didnt show big things, could in a new system.

Lombardi was definitely a great coach but that is what he was... a great coach, not just a great motivator or a great speaker... he was great at finding talent, he was great and developing a game plane, he was great and executing the game plan, he was great at making adjustments and he was great at motivating. So don't act like his success was because he had good quotes.

Also, I am ready for the Colts to be in the playoffs. It just probably won't happen in the 2012 season.

[OLD FAN MAN]

Lombardi was definitely a great coach but that is what he was... a great coach, not just a great motivator or a great speaker... he was great at finding talent, he was great and developing a game plane, he was great and executing the game plan, he was great at making adjustments and he was great at motivating. So don't act like his success was because he had good quotes.

Also, I am ready for the Colts to be in the playoffs. It just probably won't happen in the 2012 season.

glad you said probably wont in 2012

[Coffeedrinker]

glad you said probably wont in 2012

Oh, I rarely make definitive statements regarding football.

[FanFromtheWasteland]

That was under a different system that we looked bad, and i agree casto got beat alot. our new coaches wont let him start if he cant do the job. this year we are going to go after the ball on defense instead of waiting for them to catch the ball then tackle, we may have some sleepers at cb, but i admit it is a weak spot,but i think our coaches will fix it

I don’t know if they will be able to fix it right off, but I believe that they will at least make an attempt at it which imo is a huge improvement in itself

[HarassedOffTheSite]

That's fine.

It was a good discussion. We'll see how it plays out. I'm pulling for him. Hopefully his decision to wear the tinted visor is purely to deal with sunlight interfering with his ability to catch footballs.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

It's always funny to see some folks all puffed up & carrying on about something or other.

Speaking of funny, anyone else see this...

[FightLikeSin]

It was a good discussion. We'll see how it plays out. I'm pulling for him. Hopefully his decision to wear the tinted visor is purely to deal with sunlight interfering with his ability to catch footballs.

He wore a dark visor before the concussions. I can only remember him not wearing one as a rookie.

This is from Week 1 vs the Texans in 2010.

He wore a clear visor at times at BYU.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

He wore a dark visor before the concussions. I can only remember him not wearing one as a rookie.

Cool. ;)

[oldunclemark]

Second impact syndrome occurs when an athlete returns to sport* too early * after suffering from an initial concussion.

Collie is way pasted that, it's been years now. Like Superman said above, this was the concern during the season he received the first concussion and actually happened. His second "concussion" was probably just second impact syndrome.

The larger point is that concussions are cumulative...

You do not totally recover.....There's a hundreds oif studies going on now but suffice it to say that

while he was fine next year....he is medically more liekly to have another concussion than lets say...Reggie Wayne is..

with the same hit..to the head.....

With a family like he has....I do not think he should play but its not my call. Its his.

I root for him to play well and be healthly///

But he's at more risk than players who have not had a significant concussion. Dont kid yourself...