NFL Mount Rushmore (All Time)

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, Myles said:

Ill go with top 4 that I have watched.

 

Peyton Manning

Barry Sanders

Jerry Rice

Reggie White

 

That is a good one actually.

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 hours ago, w87r said:

Definitely going to disagree on this one.

 

You're sure of it? Ok.

 

Anyway heres a little nugget for you.

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/02/18/terrell-owens-dropped-passes-as-great-receivers-do/

 

1997: Owens dropped five passes and wasn’t even in the Top 50 in drops. Hall of Famer Michael Irvin was second in the NFL with 11 drops, while Hall of Famer Tim Brown was tied for fourth with nine drops.

 

 

That's just a snippet referencing your guy.(with great hands) Would suggest going through there and checking it out. Like Harrison's 16 drops in 2002.

 

 

TO gets way to much hate. The guy is literally a top 3-5 WR of all time., stats or not. Some don't like him, like Im guessing you, but his abilities are unarguable and Irvin isnt close on any aspect.

Irvin is better, end of story lol. We will just disagree I guess. 3-0 Rings, kidding about the rings but you didn't watch the Cowboys during the 90's because anyone that did wouldn't put TO in Irv's class.

[2006Coltsbestever]

54 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

Don't remind me. I was numb for a couple of days after that loss. 

Sorry about that but to me that was the greatest team ever not to win a SB. Only maybe the 1990 Bills would be in that discussion because their franchise never won a SB either.

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 hours ago, w87r said:

I agree with this 100%. Definitely one of the GOATs.

 

 

For the record:(My top 5 WR's)

Rice

Moss

Fitzgerald

Owens

Harrison

You and I are way off on this one, no way Fitz or TO belong in the top 5. Rice, Harrison, and Moss yes so we are in 60% agreement anyway. You are looking too much into stats, JMO. Owens and Fitz were great but top 5, nope. I can buy top 10. No way is either Fitz or Owens better than Cris Carter.

[w87r]

4 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Irvin is better, end of story lol. We will just disagree I guess. 3-0 Rings, kidding about the rings but you didn't watch the Cowboys during the 90's because anyone that did wouldn't put TO in Irv's class.

Do me a favor... Don't tell me what I did or didn't do.

 

I could easily flip your last statement to reflect the other way, but I'm not going to tell you what you have and haven't done.

 

 

Im not some young kid on here that just started watching football a couple years ago. Hell I watched Irvin in college, so I really don't appreciate you telling me what I have seen or haven't seen.

 

Good day.

[w87r]

3 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

You and I are way off on this one, no way Fitz or TO belong in the top 5. Rice, Harrison, and Moss yes so we are in 60% agreement anyway. You are looking too much into stats, JMO. Owens and Fitz were great but top 5, nope. I can buy top 10. No way is either Fitz or Owens better than Cris Carter.

I can see an argument about Cris Carter, but Michael Irvin isn't anywhere on the discussion.

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 hours ago, w87r said:

Do me a favor... Don't tell me what I did or didn't do.

 

I could easily flip your last statement to reflect the other way, but I'm not going to tell you what you have and haven't done.

 

 

Im not some young kid on here that just started watching football a couple years ago. Hell I watched Irvin in college, so I really don't appreciate you telling me what I have seen or haven't seen.

 

Good day.

I said I was kidding, chill out man. Ok we just disagree. 

[Dingus McGirt]

Great discussion topic. 

 

Don't believe there could ever be a consensus "Mount Rushmore" of all-time NFL greats.   

 

There would need to be probably 3-4 "era-based" versions, due to the changes to the game.  

 

Just the opinion of an old guy who began watching in the mid-late 60's.

 

[CurBeatElite]

On 12/19/2020 at 6:54 AM, FortheWin said:

Now you are the one cherry picking. 2008 was a fine season from Belichick. Great roster like you said, went 16-0 the year prior with Brady so a 5 game drop off and no playoffs. But Bill also went 5-13 with Bledsoe a former first overall draft pick who was in his prime. If you want to talk about Bill's best coaching job it was easily 2001 when he was 0-2 with Bledsoe and Brady came in when Bledsoe got hurt and went 14-3 to the championship. That team may be the worst roster to ever win a Superbowl but he had Brady leading the way.

 

Like I said 8 seasons is a huge sample with 3 seasons in NE. He is sub .500 without Brady. If he is able to find a great QB again (I hope he never does LOL) then he will win again.

 

And he got Brady back and went 10-6 the year after Cassell went 11-5, so Brady dropped a game from that?

 

Not saying Brady's not a great QB... just saying with a good team and a solid QB, Belichick is as good or better than any coach to ever coach the game.  

 

We'll never know for sure... but, my guess is that Peyton could have gone to NE and won several championships with Belichick and the teams Brady won SBs on.. I don't think Brady would have had near the success if he came to Indy and played the same time as Peyton did, simply because of how bad our D was for most of the time Peyton was here and how much Brady relied on that in NE to win the majority of his SBs.

[crazycolt1]

18 minutes ago, CurBeatElite said:

And he got Brady back and went 10-6 the year after Cassell went 11-5, so Brady dropped a game from that?

 

Not saying Brady's not a great QB... just saying with a good team and a solid QB, Belichick is as good or better than any coach to ever coach the game.  

 

We'll never know for sure... but, my guess is that Peyton could have gone to NE and won several championships with Belichick and the teams Brady won SBs on.. I don't think Brady would have had near the success if he came to Indy and played the same time as Peyton did, simply because of how bad our D was for most of the time Peyton was here and how much Brady relied on that in NE to win the majority of his SBs.

Not to mention that either Brady would have been traded to a less talented team or sit behind Manning most of his career. 

[FortheWin]

16 hours ago, CurBeatElite said:

And he got Brady back and went 10-6 the year after Cassell went 11-5, so Brady dropped a game from that?

 

Not saying Brady's not a great QB... just saying with a good team and a solid QB, Belichick is as good or better than any coach to ever coach the game.  

 

We'll never know for sure... but, my guess is that Peyton could have gone to NE and won several championships with Belichick and the teams Brady won SBs on.. I don't think Brady would have had near the success if he came to Indy and played the same time as Peyton did, simply because of how bad our D was for most of the time Peyton was here and how much Brady relied on that in NE to win the majority of his SBs.

The discussion is not Manning or any other elite QB playing for the Pats. Bill would have success with an elite QB as any HC would. No other QB wins 6 rings with Bill. What he and Brady did together is unprecedented. They were the perfect match. The discussion is Bill's record without Brady, without elite QB play which is the real barometer of great coaching. Again in 8 seasons he is sub .500 and currently 6-8. You can go back and forth about this season vs that season and what you end up with is Bill is 224-66 with Brady and playoffs every year he was his starter with the exception of 2002 and six rings.  The other 8 seasons he is sub .500 with one playoff appearance and one playoff win.

[CurBeatElite]

3 hours ago, FortheWin said:

The discussion is not Manning or any other elite QB playing for the Pats. Bill would have success with an elite QB as any HC would. No other QB wins 6 rings with Bill. What he and Brady did together is unprecedented. They were the perfect match. The discussion is Bill's record without Brady, without elite QB play which is the real barometer of great coaching. Again in 8 seasons he is sub .500 and currently 6-8. You can go back and forth about this season vs that season and what you end up with is Bill is 224-66 with Brady and playoffs every year he was his starter with the exception of 2002 and six rings.  The other 8 seasons he is sub .500 with one playoff appearance and one playoff win.

 

The only team he had that was close to the talent level across the board as the Brady teams was the 11-5 Cassell team.  Cassell was 11-5 with NE and roughly ~0.38 the rest of his career.

 

Belichick, aside from Brady lost 3 all-pros (2 opt outs, 1 FA) and a leader of the D (Chang) this offseason.  This team is really nowhere near where the talent of the Pats were last year.

 

Let's stop arguing, though.  This is becoming a waste of time.  Have a nice day, sir.

[FortheWin]

34 minutes ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

The only team he had that was close to the talent level across the board as the Brady teams was the 11-5 Cassell team.  Cassell was 11-5 with NE and roughly ~0.38 the rest of his career.

 

Belichick, aside from Brady lost 3 all-pros (2 opt outs, 1 FA) and a leader of the D (Chang) this offseason.  This team is really nowhere near where the talent of the Pats were last year.

 

Let's stop arguing, though.  This is becoming a waste of time.  Have a nice day, sir.

I was not under the impression we were arguing just debating. It is a good debate. But we can just drop it. Have a good day yourself and Happy Holidays!

[CurBeatElite]

22 hours ago, FortheWin said:

I was not under the impression we were arguing just debating. It is a good debate. But we can just drop it. Have a good day yourself and Happy Holidays!

It is a good debate.. and it could go on forever.

 

Really, my point of the long post I had earlier in this thread is because somone said Brady is 'easily the best QB of all time.'  There are so many factors in  team sports, especially football which unlike hockey, basketball, soccer, has players who only play one way.  I don't think anyone will every truly know who the best QB is or was or will be (right now, Mahomes is crushing everything in front of him -- based on his raw skills and his early career stats all we can say is he's off to a fantastic start and having one of the best short stints of all time, IMO he's gotta keep himself healthy and performing at this level for another decade or so before he gets lumped into the GOAT convo, though).  

[FortheWin]

56 minutes ago, CurBeatElite said:

It is a good debate.. and it could go on forever.

 

Really, my point of the long post I had earlier in this thread is because somone said Brady is 'easily the best QB of all time.'  There are so many factors in  team sports, especially football which unlike hockey, basketball, soccer, has players who only play one way.  I don't think anyone will every truly know who the best QB is or was or will be (right now, Mahomes is crushing everything in front of him -- based on his raw skills and his early career stats all we can say is he's off to a fantastic start and having one of the best short stints of all time, IMO he's gotta keep himself healthy and performing at this level for another decade or so before he gets lumped into the GOAT convo, though).  

I agree. It can go on forever. LOL.

Brady is the most accomplished. I think the whole GOAT is a media fabrication. There are so many great QBs that have played and there is nothing wrong with thinking any QB is great.

My position had more to do with Bill. It will be interesting to see how he does the next couple of seasons without Brady and the AFC East looking like a great division with the Bills and Miami. I think his days of coaching may be coming to an end soon. Seems like as a GM the game is passing him by. His roster is really bad.

[CurBeatElite]

5 hours ago, FortheWin said:

I agree. It can go on forever. LOL.

Brady is the most accomplished. I think the whole GOAT is a media fabrication. There are so many great QBs that have played and there is nothing wrong with thinking any QB is great.

My position had more to do with Bill. It will be interesting to see how he does the next couple of seasons without Brady and the AFC East looking like a great division with the Bills and Miami. I think his days of coaching may be coming to an end soon. Seems like as a GM the game is passing him by. His roster is really bad.

 

His roster doesn't look great.  He lost Jamie Collins to FA (an all-pro LB).  He lost Dont'a Hightower to covid opt-out (another all-pro).  He lost Marcus Cannon to covid opt-oyut (another all-pro, but at RT).  He lost Patrick Chung to covid opt-out (a borderline pro-bowler and leader of the D at S).  He also lost several other key contributors to covid opt-out (more than any other team in the league).  

 

Not saying they would've beaten the Bills in the AFC East if those guys were still around, but it's definitely a better looking roster and easily could have been a difference in a few games.  I mean look at how well we played the Titans the first go-round and how bad we defended them the second go-round with the loss of Buckner and Autry (an all-pro and a decent player, I think Oke was also out that game -- I'd say the loss of Collins, Hightower and Chung is equal to or greater than Buckner, Autry, Oke).  

 

Also, I agree Belichick's days of coaching might be coming to an end soon.  I just don't think it's because he's a bad coach or the game is passing him by.  I think it's because he's 68 years old and of course his days are coming to an end as a coach.  It's not uncommon for any person in any position (be it military, school teacher, professor, union worker, etc.) to retire after 20-25 years of doing the same thing for their career.  Belichick's been coaching in the NFL now since 1975 (45 years) with 20 years of HC in the same organization.  I don't think his days of coaching and being a GM are numbered because the game has past him by.  I think his days are numbered because he's getting old and at the point where he is probably burnt out, has saved more than enough money to live comfortably doing nothing for the rest of his life and has nothing else to prove.

 

Similarly, Brady is not having anywhere near the best year of his career without Belichick (even though he's got arguably more firepower than ever before with Gronk, Evans, AB, Godwin, Tyler Johnson, etc.).  Brady's 43.  IMO, he's playing simply to beat individual records (and IMO, unless he plays a season longer than Brees, he won't get the all-time TD or all-time yardage record).   While you mention this is the first time in a long time Belichick isn't a division champ... same goes for Brady.  While Brady's Bucs haven't clinched a wildcard birth in the NFC, they'd be on the bubble in the AFC.  The NFC is probably going to see a team with a losing record win a division (NFC East) and potentially an 8-8 team win a wildcard spot... Brady gets in with a wildcard at 9-7 there... whereas, the AFC is looking seriously like an 11-5 team may get booted from the playoffs all together.   

 

I highly doubt Brady or Belichick win another superbowl.  I also think this is Brady's best chance to do so in the NFC as I don't see Tampa Bay giving him any better options or improving that team that much next year.  On the other hand, I could see Belichick doing much better if he gets his all-pro OT back, an all-pro LB back, a team leader/borderline probowl S back and has a full offseason to work with Newton on adjusting his offense.

 

 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

Brady is the most accomplished QB ever with 6 Rings but if I am starting a franchise I want Peyton. Peyton is the system, calls his own plays and won 5 MVP's. He won with 2 different coaches (Kubiak being 1  ) so that proves he can win it all with anyone. People can say it was Denver's defense all they want and they were the main reason why Peyton got ring #2 bit Peyton still played good vs Pitt and NE. He did the job and won a SB with freakin Kubiak at the helm  

[CurBeatElite]

8 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Brady is the most accomplished QB ever with 6 Rings but if I am starting a franchise I want Peyton. Peyton is the system, calls his own plays and won 5 MVP's. He won with 2 different coaches (Kubiak being 1  ) so that proves he can win it all with anyone.

Bucs' Tom Brady throws shade at Tony Dungy over QB ranking - Tampa Bay Buccaneers- ESPN

https://www.espn.com/blog/tampa-bay-buccaneers/post/_/id/24444/bucs-tom-brady-throws-shade-at-tony-dungy-over-qb-ranking

 

Pretty interesting... Dungy ranks Peyton above Brady (of course), but says Brady is the 6th hardest QB he had to game plan against.

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

22 minutes ago, CurBeatElite said:

Bucs' Tom Brady throws shade at Tony Dungy over QB ranking - Tampa Bay Buccaneers- ESPN

https://www.espn.com/blog/tampa-bay-buccaneers/post/_/id/24444/bucs-tom-brady-throws-shade-at-tony-dungy-over-qb-ranking

 

Pretty interesting... Dungy ranks Peyton above Brady (of course), but says Brady is the 6th hardest QB he had to game plan against.

 

I added a little bit to my above post but without Peyton we would've been an average team most years or even bad.

[CurBeatElite]

40 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Brady is the most accomplished QB ever with 6 Rings but if I am starting a franchise I want Peyton. Peyton is the system, calls his own plays and won 5 MVP's. He won with 2 different coaches (Kubiak being 1  ) so that proves he can win it all with anyone. People can say it was Denver's defense all they want and they were the main reason why Peyton got ring #2 bit Peyton still played good vs Pitt and NE. He did the job and won a SB with freakin Kubiak at the helm  

 

went to the SB with 4 different coaches (Dungy, Caldwell, Fox, Kubiak)... won with Dungy and Kubiak. 

 

I will never forget when we were 14-0 and Peyton wouldn't take his helmet off on the sideline and kind of trolled Caldwell wanting to get back into that game.  I am sure he'll go to his grave upset that he never had the chance to go for a perfect season.  More impressive is that almost the same 14-0 team which Caldwell benched to go 14-2 heading into the playoffs, which eventually lost in the SB... was 2-14 without Peyton and the majority of other characters still around.   

 

You take Brady's 16-0 team, which lost in the SB and throw in a back-up college QB (who outside of that 11-5 win under Belichick had a 0.38 win percentage in the NFL after getting a franchise QB contract based on that one season) and they're still an 11 win team.

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 minutes ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

went to the SB with 4 different coaches (Dungy, Caldwell, Fox, Kubiak)... won with Dungy and Kubiak. 

 

I will never forget when we were 14-0 and Peyton wouldn't take his helmet off on the sideline and kind of trolled Caldwell wanting to get back into that game.  I am sure he'll go to his grave upset that he never had the chance to go for a perfect season.  

I go back and forth on who was better between Peyton, Brady, and Montana. To me all 3 mastered the position. Out of the 3 Peyton definitely had the worse coaching. Dungy is a Hall of Famer but he isn't Bill Belichick or Bill Walsh great. By getting that 2nd SB win with 2 different teams that puts Peyton in that top 3 at worse. The 5 League MVP's will never be matched by Peyton either. Brady and Montana have more rings but also had better teams and better coaching.

[Myles]

Manning was the best QB I have ever watched play.   It's not just his stats.  He was a coach on the field.  He read the other team so well, even after the plays ended.  Are there stats for balls snaps while the defense has 12 men on the field.  Manning seemed to have got the other team for that in every other game.  

Marino, Young and Montana are also ahead of Brady for me.  

[CurBeatElite]

9 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I go back and forth on who was better between Peyton, Brady, and Montana. To me all 3 mastered the position. Out of the 3 Peyton definitely had the worse coaching. Dungy is a Hall of Famer but he isn't Bill Belichick or Bill Walsh great. By getting that 2nd SB win with 2 different teams that puts Peyton in that top 3 at worse. The 5 League MVP's will never be matched by Peyton either. Brady and Montana have more rings but also had better teams and better coaching.

 

I'm hesitant to say 5 MVPs will never be matched.  Patrick Mahomes won it in 2018 (his first year as a starter), arguably could have won it last year, and I think it will be between him and A Rodgers this year (leaning towards Mahomes).  If Mahomes wins it, that is 2 MVPs in 3 years as a starter (4 years in the league).  If Mahomes stays healthy, he'll start seeing perennial MVP contenders dropping out of the league or playing at levels below their prime (Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Big Ben, etc.)  while several of the up-and-comers (e.g., Burrows, Trevor Lawerence) are going to be on teams who will need a few years of rebuilding.  I legitimately can see Mahomes challenging the 5 MVP award mark if he stays healthy (especially if Andy Reid sticks around and he maintains the weaponry he has in KC).  

 

That said, the 5 MVPs Peyton won will obviously never be touched by those before him and it is highly unlikely any of his contemporaries get there (I can't see Brady winning 2 more, Rodgers winning 3 more, Brees winning 5).  It is an insanely impressive record.

 

While Brady and Montana have more rings, I don't look at Brady and think he 'revolutionized' the game.  I look at Brady and think, he's a darn good QB who played in a darn good system and made little mistakes in crunch time and usually made the clutch plays when they mattered.  I look at Peyton and think 'he was a coach on the field, he manipulated defenses like no other QB in NFL history.'  I have never seen a QB before him, nor since, who had that kind of mastery at the line of scrimmage and I find it hard to believe that we ever will see another QB like him (I'm sure we'll see many try to mimic him, just like Kobe tried to mimic MJ).  We might not see another QB win 6 rings (if I had to guess, it'd be Mahomes from what I see in the league right now), but I think we'll see a lot of QBs in the similar mold as Brady - solid QBs who answer what is asked of them in a system that fits them.

[FortheWin]

13 hours ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

His roster doesn't look great.  He lost Jamie Collins to FA (an all-pro LB).  He lost Dont'a Hightower to covid opt-out (another all-pro).  He lost Marcus Cannon to covid opt-oyut (another all-pro, but at RT).  He lost Patrick Chung to covid opt-out (a borderline pro-bowler and leader of the D at S).  He also lost several other key contributors to covid opt-out (more than any other team in the league).  

 

Not saying they would've beaten the Bills in the AFC East if those guys were still around, but it's definitely a better looking roster and easily could have been a difference in a few games.  I mean look at how well we played the Titans the first go-round and how bad we defended them the second go-round with the loss of Buckner and Autry (an all-pro and a decent player, I think Oke was also out that game -- I'd say the loss of Collins, Hightower and Chung is equal to or greater than Buckner, Autry, Oke).  

 

Also, I agree Belichick's days of coaching might be coming to an end soon.  I just don't think it's because he's a bad coach or the game is passing him by.  I think it's because he's 68 years old and of course his days are coming to an end as a coach.  It's not uncommon for any person in any position (be it military, school teacher, professor, union worker, etc.) to retire after 20-25 years of doing the same thing for their career.  Belichick's been coaching in the NFL now since 1975 (45 years) with 20 years of HC in the same organization.  I don't think his days of coaching and being a GM are numbered because the game has past him by.  I think his days are numbered because he's getting old and at the point where he is probably burnt out, has saved more than enough money to live comfortably doing nothing for the rest of his life and has nothing else to prove.

 

Similarly, Brady is not having anywhere near the best year of his career without Belichick (even though he's got arguably more firepower than ever before with Gronk, Evans, AB, Godwin, Tyler Johnson, etc.).  Brady's 43.  IMO, he's playing simply to beat individual records (and IMO, unless he plays a season longer than Brees, he won't get the all-time TD or all-time yardage record).   While you mention this is the first time in a long time Belichick isn't a division champ... same goes for Brady.  While Brady's Bucs haven't clinched a wildcard birth in the NFC, they'd be on the bubble in the AFC.  The NFC is probably going to see a team with a losing record win a division (NFC East) and potentially an 8-8 team win a wildcard spot... Brady gets in with a wildcard at 9-7 there... whereas, the AFC is looking seriously like an 11-5 team may get booted from the playoffs all together.   

 

I highly doubt Brady or Belichick win another superbowl.  I also think this is Brady's best chance to do so in the NFC as I don't see Tampa Bay giving him any better options or improving that team that much next year.  On the other hand, I could see Belichick doing much better if he gets his all-pro OT back, an all-pro LB back, a team leader/borderline probowl S back and has a full offseason to work with Newton on adjusting his offense.

 

 

 

Bill said at the start of the season he was punting on the season due to the cap issues because he has drafted so poorly for the last 6 years.  He did lose several LBs to FA but also chose not to replace any of them. He did replace the Covid opt-outs with Dugger who has been a stud at strong safety and Onwenu is a stud on the Oline replacing Cannon. The only opt-out they really miss is Hightower but given Bill did not bother replacing the 3 LBs he lost in FA, so that position group was always going to be an issue.  The Pats are bad this season because they have gotten putrid play from the QB. With even competent QB play they are probably a WC.  That is why the media is all over him for letting Brady go.  Also, it has been reported that Hightower is retiring along with Cannon and Chung will be released given they have Dugger. So they are in the midst of a complete rebuild. They will be staring up at the Bills and Dolphins for some time unless another Brady falls out of the sky into Bill's lap which is highly unlikely.

 

Brady is having a top 5 season statistically and has his team positioned for the playoffs and did so in a Covid season with no off-season. It is accurate to say Bill has missed Brady way more than Brady has missed Bill this year. Also, Brady already has the TD record by 5 TDs right now. He went ahead of Brees a few weeks ago. He will most likely own all the passing records as it is likely Brees will retire this season and go into broadcasting and Brady plans on playing to age 45 and beyond.

 

In terms of Peyton, I have him and Brady as 1 and 2 all time. I know many would disagree with that as many have Peyton below Montana and others. But I would have him behind Brady because the two of them are/were masters on the field. The two most cerebral Qbs I have ever seen play. Brady is still doing it at age 43 which is remarkable. I do not think we see any future QBs in the mold of Brady or Peyton just because the position has become so athletic now. I doubt pocket guys get a look at all from the scouts if they can't move.

[2006Coltsbestever]

7 minutes ago, FortheWin said:

Bill said at the start of the season he was punting on the season due to the cap issues because he has drafted so poorly for the last 6 years.  He did lose several LBs to FA but also chose not to replace any of them. He did replace the Covid opt-outs with Dugger who has been a stud at strong safety and Onwenu is a stud on the Oline replacing Cannon. The only opt-out they really miss is Hightower but given Bill did not bother replacing the 3 LBs he lost in FA, so that position group was always going to be an issue.  The Pats are bad this season because they have gotten putrid play from the QB. With even competent QB play they are probably a WC.  That is why the media is all over him for letting Brady go.  Also, it has been reported that Hightower is retiring along with Cannon and Chung will be released given they have Dugger. So they are in the midst of a complete rebuild. They will be staring up at the Bills and Dolphins for some time unless another Brady falls out of the sky into Bill's lap which is highly unlikely.

 

Brady is having a top 5 season statistically and has his team positioned for the playoffs and did so in a Covid season with no off-season. It is accurate to say Bill has missed Brady way more than Brady has missed Bill this year. Also, Brady already has the TD record by 5 TDs right now. He went ahead of Brees a few weeks ago. He will most likely own all the passing records as it is likely Brees will retire this season and go into broadcasting and Brady plans on playing to age 45 and beyond.

 

In terms of Peyton, I have him and Brady as 1 and 2 all time. I know many would disagree with that as many have Peyton below Montana and others. But I would have him behind Brady because the two of them are/were masters on the field. The two most cerebral Qbs I have ever seen play. Brady is still doing it at age 43 which is remarkable. I do not think we see any future QBs in the mold of Brady or Peyton just because the position has become so athletic now. I doubt pocket guys get a look at all from the scouts if they can't move.

In no matter what order one wants to put them in, to me the 3 greatest QB's I have ever seen are Brady, Peyton, and Montana just based off of eye test but they all won MVP's and multiple rings to back my debate up. Peyton won 2 rings so that is good enough to be in the top 3 at worse considering he won 5 MVP's. 

[FortheWin]

13 hours ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

went to the SB with 4 different coaches (Dungy, Caldwell, Fox, Kubiak)... won with Dungy and Kubiak. 

 

I will never forget when we were 14-0 and Peyton wouldn't take his helmet off on the sideline and kind of trolled Caldwell wanting to get back into that game.  I am sure he'll go to his grave upset that he never had the chance to go for a perfect season.  More impressive is that almost the same 14-0 team which Caldwell benched to go 14-2 heading into the playoffs, which eventually lost in the SB... was 2-14 without Peyton and the majority of other characters still around.   

 

You take Brady's 16-0 team, which lost in the SB and throw in a back-up college QB (who outside of that 11-5 win under Belichick had a 0.38 win percentage in the NFL after getting a franchise QB contract based on that one season) and they're still an 11 win team.

It's interesting you continue to highlight the 2008 season but not the 2000/2001 seasons when Bill went 5-13 with the first overall pick Bledsoe. Then Mo Lewis takes Bledsoe out with the team at 0-2 with losses to the mighty Bengals and Jets and Brady promptly goes 14-3 winning his last 9 games in a row including two GWD's in the post-season.  Then you look at this year with no Brady again and the Pats have been abysmal with only 6 wins compared to the 12 wins Brady got them last year and the AFC east title.

 

In short, Belichick is among the greatest football leaders ever (as both coach and GM), and his approach to economic-based value for players and opponent-based value for game plans is incredible. That said, this provides the “extra edge” when it comes to winning, and it isn’t the other way around. Without a great QB, this is all futile. But this reality seems to be hitting those hard if they didn’t already realize it, despite every sports dynasty confirming the same thing. 

[FortheWin]

8 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

In no matter what order one wants to put them in, to me the 3 greatest QB's I have ever seen are Brady, Peyton, and Montana just based off of eye test but they all won MVP's and multiple rings to back my debate up. Peyton won 2 rings so that is good enough to be in the top 3 at worse considering he won 5 MVP's. 

I would not have Montana third because I don't base the rankings just on rings. He was not statically equivalent to his peers and that matters when it comes to the greatest of the greats IMO. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, FortheWin said:

It's interesting you continue to highlight the 2008 season but not the 2000/2001 seasons when Bill went 5-13 with the first overall pick Bledsoe. Then Mo Lewis takes Bledsoe out with the team at 0-2 with losses to the mighty Bengals and Jets and Brady promptly goes 14-3 winning his last 9 games in a row including two GWD's in the post-season.  Then you look at this year with no Brady again and the Pats have been abysmal with only 6 wins compared to the 12 wins Brady got them last year and the AFC east title.

 

In short, Belichick is among the greatest football leaders ever (as both coach and GM), and his approach to economic-based value for players and opponent-based value for game plans is incredible. That said, this provides the “extra edge” when it comes to winning, and it isn’t the other way around. Without a great QB, this is all futile. But this reality seems to be hitting those hard if they didn’t already realize it, despite every sports dynasty confirming the same thing. 

Obviously a team needs good QB play to make the playoffs, usually great QB play to win it all. Cam simply sucks. If even Rivers was the Pats QB I think they would be 9-5 at worse with BB coaching instead of 6-8 for example. Cam has blown a couple of games on his own. Bucs have a solid roster but Tom is still good. I had the Bucs going 10-6 before the season started and making the playoffs.

[FortheWin]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Obviously a team needs good QB play to make the playoffs, usually great QB play to win it all. Cam simply sucks. If even Rivers was the Pats QB I think they would be 9-5 at worse with BB coaching instead of 6-8 for example. Cam has blown a couple of games on his own. Bucs have a solid roster but Tom is still good. I had the Bucs going 10-6 before the season started and making the playoffs.

Literally any other starting QB would have been better than Cam but Bill royally messed up the transition plan. He thought he had something in Stidham and clearly didn't. It was also reported that he was surprised when Brady left so he might have also been unprepared and thought he would have another year of Brady.

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, FortheWin said:

I would not have Montana third because I don't base the rankings just on rings. He was not statically equivalent to his peers and that matters when it comes to the greatest of the greats IMO. 

You have to realize back in the 80's QB's were allowed to be beat up more and it wasn't a huge passing league. Only Marino was putting up huge numbers then. Montana still had over 40,000 yards passing and 275 TD's - back then that considered great. Montana played in 4 SB's and never threw an INT either = impressive.

[FortheWin]

6 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

You have to realize back in the 80's QB's were allowed to be beat up more and it wasn't a huge passing league. Only Marino was putting up huge numbers then. Montana still had over 40,000 yards passing and 275 TD's - back then that considered great. Montana played in 4 SB's and never threw an INT either = impressive.

I was talking about his peers.  Elway had over 50,000 yards, Marino had 61,000+. Jim Kelly with only 10 seasons had 35,000.  Fouts also had more passing yards.  And of course Montana had the best receiver to ever play the game for half of his career and the west coast system which favored passing.

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, FortheWin said:

I was talking about his peers.  Elway had over 50,000 yards, Marino had 61,000+. Jim Kelly with only 10 seasons had 35,000.  Fouts also had more passing yards.  And of course Montana had the best receiver to ever play the game for half of his career and the west coast system which favored passing.

Yeah Elway and of course Marino was better statistically but all those teams did was pass. The 49ers ran the ball a lot with Roger Craig. Elway and Marino had no running game. Fouts did put up solid numbers but all that team did was pass too. Overall though there were only maybe 3 or 4 QB's that put up big numbers passing back then. In today's league QB's like Peyton, Brady, and Brees rule the roost statistically but it is a different league. Rivers has over 60,000 yards as well.