Luck is already elite! Put any of the so called elite QB's on the Colts behind that horrendous O-Line, and ask yourself could they go 11-5?

[John Waylon]

Get ready to be paid $20m/year. It worked for Flacco.

Exactly the results I intended. 

[The Old Crow]

I've been at odds with the Brady crowd for many years, and I don't expect that to change now. But Brady has had a lot more postseason success throughout his career than Flacco, and he has long term production to go with it.

 

For me, Flacco is #8 on the list. Luck's spot depends on how you're ranking him, but I think I'd put him at #9, ahead of the other young guys, and ahead of the experienced vets in my Group 4.

 

 

I'm not putting Flacco in Brady's category yet, but my point is the New England apologist crowd always use the Super Bowl argument to diss Peyton Manning, and boost Brady over him. I don't believe that Brady is better than Manning, but the Chowder Society constantly bring up the post season success of long ago. It's been seven years now since the golden boy won a Super Bowl, and they were won under shaky circunstances unprecedented in NFL history.

[The Old Crow]

We have a great young QB, but lets be honest... Manning gets sacked 15 times less than Luck did if he were playing behind that line... Sure, Luck used his legs and his size to avoid some sacks, but PM would have gotten rid of the ball so much faster, even if he were throwing it away... Impossible to tell how many wins any other QB would have gotten, but I remember Manning playing behind some horrible lines during his tenure here and throwing to guys like Blair White as well and making 10-11 wins look easier than they did for us in 2012...

 

I am very excited about the future of the franchise, but I have a difficult time describing any QB as "elite" after 1 season... I do, however, have confidence that Luck is going to be elite in time.. maybe one of the best ever if we can keep a team around him...

 

I think Luck is more of a traditional drop back quarterback, more similar to Flacco , than Manning. Unitas and Manning were perfectionists at the art of the timing pattern. Brady also uses timing patterns, but as others have pointed out, it is a more dink and dunk style, instead of downfield timing patterns. Winning 11 games after going 2-14, is certainly a great accomplishment for Luck as a rookie. They have the cap to get him O line help, plus the draft. He has the intangibles to be elite.

[The Old Crow]

Exactly the results I intended. 

 

 

The question should be , how did Tony Romo get that kind of money ?

[Superman]

I know you don't like Joe, but the Ravens already had a 17 million dollar offer on the table before the season began, and it was turned down. So Joe got 20 million, but what are you going to do if you are the Raven's and you just won a Super Bowl with this quarterback ? Also, future salaries like Romo and Rodgers will easily surpass Flaccos number.

 

That being said, I will miss Boldin and Pollard. Those two moves I have my doubts, as do many Raven's fans. We'll see how both Luck and Flacco do this season in their march to elitism.

 

Me? I don't dislike Joe Flacco. I just don't think he's worthy of elite status or pay. I'd have tagged him and seen what happened.

[Superman]

I'm not putting Flacco in Brady's category yet, but my point is the New England apologist crowd always use the Super Bowl argument to diss Peyton Manning, and boost Brady over him. I don't believe that Brady is better than Manning, but the Chowder Society constantly bring up the post season success of long ago. It's been seven years now since the golden boy won a Super Bowl, and they were won under shaky circunstances unprecedented in NFL history.

 

I agree with all that. I've said many times that Brady is a much better quarterback now than he was when they won three Super Bowls. To me, postseason success doesn't necessarily trump an entire body of work. It's important, but it's not all-important.

[The Old Crow]

 

Me? I don't dislike Joe Flacco. I just don't think he's worthy of elite status or pay. I'd have tagged him and seen what happened.

 

 

I'm sure that tagging him crossed Ozzie's mind, but they had to get a structure in to go after other free agents and free up some money. In a couple of more years, Flacco's deal may not even be elite. One thing is for sure, by 2016, he will not be getting $28.5 million. There will be a restructuring, for sure. Again, I'm not sure about elite, but the guy is five for five in getting you to the playoffs, so that is what you're paying for. As we know, if you can get to the playoffs, you have a puncher's chance to get hot and win it all. The NFL currently is all about the quarterback, so every team is going to have to pay eventually, including the Colts with Luck. The Piper always comes !!!

[Superman]

 

 

 

I'm sure that tagging him crossed Ozzie's mind, but they had to get a structure in to go after other free agents and free up some money. In a couple of more years, Flacco's deal may not even be elite. One thing is for sure, by 2016, he will not be getting $28.5 million. There will be a restructuring, for sure. Again, I'm not sure about elite, but the guy is five for five in getting you to the playoffs, so that is what you're paying for. As we know, if you can get to the playoffs, you have a puncher's chance to get hot and win it all. The NFL currently is all about the quarterback, so every team is going to have to pay eventually, including the Colts with Luck. The Piper always comes !!!

 

Yeah, the structure they reached on his contract wound up being favorable for the team right now, and that's a good thing. But they could have restructured guys like Ngata and Suggs if necessary. And like you said, Flacco's deal will have to be addressed at some point.

[The Old Crow]

I agree with all that. I've said many times that Brady is a much better quarterback now than he was when they won three Super Bowls. To me, postseason success doesn't necessarily trump an entire body of work. It's important, but it's not all-important.

 

True, post season success is a big factor, but you also have to take into account regular season success, MVP's , innovation in play calling, and the like. You also have to look at the overall teams that the quarterback had when they won their championships. Like Lombardi's teams, Bellichick had very strong all around teams . That doesn't take things away from Brady, but the Patriot's fans constantly trump this about Manning. You saw what the Patriots did when Brady got injured, and how the Colts did when Manning went down. Not a perfect argument, but I think it's safe to say the Patriots had much stronger defenses, and overall team, than the Colts did for the majority of those years.

[Susie Q]

That to me sir, sounds like a Confession. Please slowly take your hands off the keyboard & place them behind your back. You're in direct violation of forum rules.

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you type or post can & will be used against you in the cyber courts. You have the right to an attorney, if you can't get one... you can get a forum member to represent you :mod:

*sips apple juice*

I'm terrible

Not sure I would want my representation to be an apple juice sipper TK. Sorry you know I had to say it.

[TKnight24]

Not sure I would want my representation to be an apple juice sipper TK. Sorry you know I had to say it.

 

leave me be Susie lol

[Colts_Fan12]

Elite is the best of the best, and is very exclusive. Luck has a looooooooooooooong way to go before he's considered elite. What Luck is right now is pretty good, maybe even very good. Not elite.

Group 1: Brady, Brees, P. Manning, Rodgers (in whatever order you want); they alone are "elite"

Group 2: Roethlisberger, E. Manning, Ryan, Flacco

Group 3: Luck, Wilson, Griffin, Kaepernick

Group 4: Schaub, Rivers, Cutler, Romo, Vick, Stafford

Group 5: Bradford, Newton, Freeman

Group 6+: Everyone else

Disclaimer: Some would flip Groups 3 and 4, but I'd rather have Group 3 moving forward than Group 4, and the difference in experience isn't enough to prevent the guys in Group 3 from having success. No matter.

Anyways, the point is that Luck isn't in Group 1, and isn't close at this point in time. He's not elite.

I agree Luck isn't elite but he is in a different class then RG3 and Wilson they are both system QB's Luck is far better then both so like you said flip the groups I would just put Schaub and Rivers in with Luck and remove Wilson and RG3 maybe not even Kap he is kinda a system QB too

[The Old Crow]

Yeah, the structure they reached on his contract wound up being favorable for the team right now, and that's a good thing. But they could have restructured guys like Ngata and Suggs if necessary. And like you said, Flacco's deal will have to be addressed at some point.

 

They could have done that, but Ozzie said he wouldn't go in that direction like the Ravens did in 2001, when they restructured alot of contracts. I would expect Ngata and Suggs to be salary cap casualties when their number gets to high. It is easier to replace defensive tackles and ends, than your franchise quarterback. He may not be considered elite, but he is the Raven's franchise quarterback. After years of Stoney Case, Tony Banks, Scott Mitchell, Kyle Boller, and others, you can see why the Ravens wanted to pay Flacco. Whether Flacco continues at his torrid post season and regular season winning ways remains to be seen. Trust me , he will be restructured ,or cut, by 2016. It is the Raven's way.

[NewColtsFan]

The question should be , how did Tony Romo get that kind of money ?

 

Romo got the money, not because he earned it,  but because he had the leverage due to a series of circumstances...

 

1.   Dallas was badly up against the salary cap.   At one point they only had a few hundred thousand in space -- total.   Not enough for a minimum salary.    They needed massive salary cap relief.  

 

2.  Because they needed relief and Romo had one more year to go on the contract,  they had to restructure.   

 

3.  There were no good FA quarterbacks.

 

4.  There are no good QB's in the draft.

 

5.  Advantage:  Romo!

 

6.  So, 6 years at 108 is $18 a year -- that doesn't seem terrible (though, it's still more than Romo has earned)

 

7.  But $55 Mill guaranteed is where Romo exercised the leverage.   His agent didn't give the Cowboys any hometown discount. Of course,  it didn't hurt to always have the owner proclaim what a great QB Romo is.   Jerry Jones gave Romo's agent all the ammunition an agent could want.

 

Bottom line:   Romo and his agent had a rare situation.....   all the leverage in the world.   Normally,  the player doesn't have that much leverage.    This time,  he did.

[OlBlu]

I agree Luck isn't elite but he is in a different class then RG3 and Wilson they are both system QB's Luck is far better then both so like you said flip the groups I would just put Schaub and Rivers in with Luck and remove Wilson and RG3 maybe not even Kap he is kinda a system QB too

 

Anyone who thinks Luck is far better than Luck and Wilson is truly delusional. Just look at the damn stats. He isn't close to either one of them..... :dancing:   Neither the Redskins nor the Seahawks would trade their QBs for Andrew Luck and his horrible QB rating.  :dancing:

[NewColtsFan]

Elite is the best of the best, and is very exclusive. Luck has a looooooooooooooong way to go before he's considered elite. What Luck is right now is pretty good, maybe even very good. Not elite.

 

Group 1: Brady, Brees, P. Manning, Rodgers (in whatever order you want); they alone are "elite"

Group 2: Roethlisberger, E. Manning, Ryan, Flacco

Group 3: Luck, Wilson, Griffin, Kaepernick

Group 4: Schaub, Rivers, Cutler, Romo, Vick, Stafford

Group 5: Bradford, Newton, Freeman

Group 6+: Everyone else

 

Disclaimer: Some would flip Groups 3 and 4, but I'd rather have Group 3 moving forward than Group 4, and the difference in experience isn't enough to prevent the guys in Group 3 from having success. No matter.

 

Anyways, the point is that Luck isn't in Group 1, and isn't close at this point in time. He's not elite.

 

Nice list.    I think there is a quibble here and there,  but only one really jumps out at me.....

 

Vick.   I think he's now in group 6.    I think he used to be in 4 or 5....   but not anymore.    I think he's in 6 until he earns his way back.....     Otherwise....   really nice job....

[The Old Crow]

Nice list.    I think there is a quibble here and there,  but only one really jumps out at me.....

 

Vick.   I think he's now in group 6.    I think he used to be in 4 or 5....   but not anymore.    I think he's in 6 until he earns his way back.....     Otherwise....   really nice job....

 

 

I think it is a fair, and pretty dang good list !!!

[Colts_Fan12]

Anyone who thinks Luck is far better than Luck and Wilson is truly delusional. Just look at the darn stats. He isn't close to either one of them..... :dancing: Neither the Redskins nor the Seahawks would trade their QBs for Andrew Luck and his horrible QB rating. :dancing:

Go back and look at the teams and their systems too anyone who thinks RG3 or Wilson is better then Luck is the delusional one

[The Old Crow]

Romo got the money, not because he earned it,  but because he had the leverage due to a series of circumstances...

 

1.   Dallas was badly up against the salary cap.   At one point they only had a few hundred thousand in space -- total.   Not enough for a minimum salary.    They needed massive salary cap relief.  

 

2.  Because they needed relief and Romo had one more year to go on the contract,  they had to restructure.   

 

3.  There were no good FA quarterbacks.

 

4.  There are no good QB's in the draft.

 

5.  Advantage:  Romo!

 

6.  So, 6 years at 108 is $18 a year -- that doesn't seem terrible (though, it's still more than Romo has earned)

 

7.  But $55 Mill guaranteed is where Romo exercised the leverage.   His agent didn't give the Cowboys any hometown discount. Of course,  it didn't hurt to always have the owner proclaim what a great QB Romo is.   Jerry Jones gave Romo's agent all the ammunition an agent could want.

 

Bottom line:   Romo and his agent had a rare situation.....   all the leverage in the world.   Normally,  the player doesn't have that much leverage.    This time,  he did.

 

 

Kind of similar to Flacco's situation after the Super Bowl win. Raven's up against the cap, but not quite as bad as Dallas. The guaranteed money of Flacco getting 30 million, and Romo 55 million, is the killer for Dallas. Ozzie also structured Flacco's contract so it hits $6.8 million in 2013, $14.5 million in 2014, and $14.8 million in 2015. He will never see the $28.5 , without some kind of restructure. This Romo move will kill Dallas even more.

[NewColtsFan]

Kind of similar to Flacco's situation after the Super Bowl win. Raven's up against the cap, but not quite as bad as Dallas. The guaranteed money of Flacco getting 30 million, and Romo 55 million, is the killer for Dallas. Ozzie also structured Flacco's contract so it hits $6.8 million in 2013, $14.5 million in 2014, and $14.8 million in 2015. He will never see the $28.5 , without some kind of restructure. This Romo move will kill Dallas even more.

 

Well....    two important things....

 

First,  Flacco is not getting $30 Mill guaranteed.   He's getting $51 Mill.   It maybe over several years.   I'm not sure and would have to double-check.   But it's $51 Million.

 

Second...   I don't think Flacco compares to Romo very well.    Romo has one career playoff win.   Flacco has won at least one playoff game in each of the 5 years he's been in the NFL.   And this year,  with the backdrop of negotiations hanging over his head,  and with his OC fired late in the regular season,  he went on a perfect run to finish the regular season and then was perfect in the playoffs as well...   not just in wins,  but in TD's and Int. as well.

 

I think Flacco has done far more than Romo.   And so I've got no problem with Flacco getting his contract.   He bet on himself and won.     Good for him.

[LockeDown]

The OP is elite.  Every thread he creates goes ballistic.  He is the Andrew Luck of posting. 

 

Btw, did we get moved to the General section?  All of a sudden I see Pats and Raven fans posting on a Luck thread and I felt like I walked (sat) through a space time continuum thread.

[The Old Crow]

It is 51 million. I liked the 30 million better  !

[The Old Crow]

The OP is elite.  Every thread he creates goes ballistic.  He is the Andrew Luck of posting. 

 

Btw, did we get moved to the General section?  All of a sudden I see Pats and Raven fans posting on a Luck thread and I felt like I walked (sat) through a space time continuum thread.

 

 

If the thread is about Luck being elite, you know there are going to be comparisons. I guess only Colt's fans can comment on Luck's elite eligibility. How do you think I feel posting about the Colts from Baltimore ? Talk about space time continuum !! LOL

[OlBlu]

Go back and look at the teams and their systems too anyone who thinks RG3 or Wilson is better then Luck is the delusional one

 

Well then mark me down as delusional because I think they are both far better than Luck. What you are doing is making excuses for Luck which is what an Andrew Luck apologist must do. RGIII was the rookie of the year not Andrew Luck. There is nothing wrong for using a system that makes the most of your QBs talent. Of course, when you have a QB like Luck who doesn't have the arm strength to throw the long ball or the accuracy to run a shot game, you really don't have much to work with. I do not believe for one second that if you put Luck on the Redskins or the Seahawks that they would have had the seasons that they did..... They wouldn't have been able to take the Colts where they ended up either because the coaching staff we have absolutely will not adapt to the talent or lack of talent that our QB possesses...... :dancing:

[jshipp23]

I was never a Flacco fan , but after watching last years postseason as well as this years Super Bowl run I can confidently say he is top 5 and got paid 20 million for a reason. He wasn't exactly working with much and made his receivers look a lot better than they were..He throws the best deep ball in the league and is the most accurate QB right there with Brady. He is clutch and shows up in the big games which is the #1 attribute a QB can have. He isn't a great athlete, but the arm, accuracy, and clutch gene make hime top 5 all day and he doesn't turn the ball over either...11 TD-0 INT, thats Big-Time...

[Colts_Fan12]

Well then mark me down as delusional because I think they are both far better than Luck. What you are doing is making excuses for Luck which is what an Andrew Luck apologist must do. RGIII was the rookie of the year not Andrew Luck. There is nothing wrong for using a system that makes the most of your QBs talent. Of course, when you have a QB like Luck who doesn't have the arm strength to throw the long ball or the accuracy to run a shot game, you really don't have much to work with. I do not believe for one second that if you put Luck on the Redskins or the Seahawks that they would have had the seasons that they did..... They wouldn't have been able to take the Colts where they ended up either because the coaching staff we have absolutely will not adapt to the talent or lack of talent that our QB possesses...... :dancing:

Ok pal you can have your opinion that's fair but luck had 1 of the worst lines in the NFL and RG and Wilson both have great run games and Wilson had a top D I'm not gonna bash you cause of your opinion that's your right but there is a reason luck was the highest rated QB out of college and was picked #1

[NewColtsFan]

It is 51 million. I liked the 30 million better  !

 

OK....     I've now gone and looked it up, and it looks like we were both right and wrong....

 

Flacco is getting $29 Mill guaranteed no matter what.     And another $23 is guaranteed for injury only.

 

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/baltimore-ravens/joe-flacco/

 

Meanwhile,  Romo is getting $40 Mill guaranteed.....     and another $15 Mill is guaranteed (7.5 in '14 and 7.5 in '15)  if he's on the roster the 3rd day of the NFL calendar year (which is in mid-march)

 

And here is the link for Romo....

 

 

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/dallas-cowboys/tony-romo/

[The Old Crow]

I was never a Flacco fan , but after watching last years postseason as well as this years Super Bowl run I can confidently say he is top 5 and got paid 20 million for a reason. He wasn't exactly working with much and made his receivers look a lot better than they were..He throws the best deep ball in the league and is the most accurate QB right there with Brady. He is clutch and shows up in the big games which is the #1 attribute a QB can have. He isn't a great athlete, but the arm, accuracy, and clutch gene make hime top 5 all day and he doesn't turn the ball over either...11 TD-0 INT, thats Big-Time...

 

Excellent analysis !

[The Old Crow]

OK....     I've now gone and looked it up, and it looks like we were both right and wrong....

 

Flacco is getting $29 Mill guaranteed no matter what.     And another $23 is guaranteed for injury only.

 

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/baltimore-ravens/joe-flacco/

 

Meanwhile,  Romo is getting $40 Mill guaranteed.....     and another $15 Mill is guaranteed (7.5 in '14 and 7.5 in '15)  if he's on the roster the 3rd day of the NFL calendar year (which is in mid-march)

 

I'll get that link in a moment.....

 

I guess the bottom line is the Ravens got a better deal than the Cowboys. I wonder how much Luck is going to cost the Colts four years from now ?

[Buck Showalter]

Wow...

[ColtStrong]

Yeah I guess Andrew will do for now.

[jshipp23]

I guess the bottom line is the Ravens got a better deal than the Cowboys. I wonder how much Luck is going to cost the Colts four years from now ?

The way things are going probably in the 30-35 million range which is insane and I'm worried about it...

[ColtStrong]

I guess the bottom line is the Ravens got a better deal than the Cowboys. I wonder how much Luck is going to cost the Colts four years from now ?

I shudder to think about it.

[ColtStrong]

Well then mark me down as delusional

Noted.

[The Old Crow]

Ok pal you can have your opinion that's fair but luck had 1 of the worst lines in the NFL and RG and Wilson both have great run games and Wilson had a top D I'm not gonna bash you cause of your opinion that's your right but there is a reason luck was the highest rated QB out of college and was picked #1

 

 

I like RG3, Wilson, and Luck. They are all good, young quarterbacks. I think the problem is going to be is when you are paying a quarterback 20 million a year, are you going to run this spread offense and see RG3 crushed by Haioti Ngata, then blowing up his knee ? Same goes for Wilson and Kap. I would prefer a pocket quarterback like Luck, mainly because there is a reduced chance of injury, when you have so much of your salary cap tied up. We've seen other scramblers, McNabb, Cunningham, Doug Williams , and others, eventually turn into pocket quarterbacks as they got older. The spread offense is just too risky, so you have to see how Wilson and RG3 adapt to the pocket.

[NewColtsFan]

I guess the bottom line is the Ravens got a better deal than the Cowboys. I wonder how much Luck is going to cost the Colts four years from now ?

 

 

I don't know what Andrew will cost....    but I can tell you the deal will likely come much sooner than 4-years.   First round deals can start being reworked after three years.  So, that's two years from now.  My guess is the Colts will want to if for no other reason than possible salary cap relief.   That's what most teams do.

 

I do suspect that Andrew will not try to milk every last dollar out of the Colts.   It would not be very 'Andrew-like' if he did that.

 

Just my hunch....

[The Old Crow]

I shudder to think about it.

 

 

Hopefully the cap will go up, because something has to give with these quarterback salaries. They are taking up far too much of the cap.

[The Old Crow]

I don't know what Andrew will cost....    but I can tell you the deal will likely come much sooner than 4-years.   First round deals can start being reworked after three years.  So, that's two years from now.  My guess is the Colts will want to if for no other reason than possible salary cap relief.   That's what most teams do.

 

I do suspect that Andrew will not try to milk every last dollar out of the Colts.   It would not be very 'Andrew-like' if he did that.

 

Just my hunch....

 

He already has an ice cool 11-5 season under his belt as a rookie, including some great comebacks. If the trend continues, and the success, you'll be glad to pay him. How many Sorgi's can you take ?

[NewColtsFan]

Well then mark me down as delusional because I think they are both far better than Luck. What you are doing is making excuses for Luck which is what an Andrew Luck apologist must do. RGIII was the rookie of the year not Andrew Luck. There is nothing wrong for using a system that makes the most of your QBs talent. Of course, when you have a QB like Luck who doesn't have the arm strength to throw the long ball or the accuracy to run a shot game, you really don't have much to work with. I do not believe for one second that if you put Luck on the Redskins or the Seahawks that they would have had the seasons that they did..... They wouldn't have been able to take the Colts where they ended up either because the coaching staff we have absolutely will not adapt to the talent or lack of talent that our QB possesses...... :dancing:

 

I gotta give you credit Ol Blue....   you're not afraid to voice your opinion....    even if it's incredibly unpopular.    So props to you.

I admire people who are willing to say what they want in the face of overwhelming opposition.   

 

But I think you're relatively new...   and when more Colts' fans find out that you're not a fan of Luck,  I think you'll get a lot of blow-back.

 

For what little it's worth....   I saw every game Luck played in college.   Every game.   I saw ever play he made in the NFL.   Every play.    I think your evaluation of Luck is light years from reality.   Light years.   Bu that's what makes the world go around....   a difference of opinion...

 

Good luck with yours here....   you're going to need it....

[Colts_Fan12]

I like RG3, Wilson, and Luck. They are all good, young quarterbacks. I think the problem is going to be is when you are paying a quarterback 20 million a year, are you going to run this spread offense and see RG3 crushed by Haioti Ngata, then blowing up his knee ? Same goes for Wilson and Kap. I would prefer a pocket quarterback like Luck, mainly because there is a reduced chance of injury, when you have so much of your salary cap tied up. We've seen other scramblers, McNabb, Cunningham, Doug Williams , and others, eventually turn into pocket quarterbacks as they got older. The spread offense is just too risky, so you have to see how Wilson and RG3 adapt to the pocket.

Very true I totally agree I'm just trying to tell him that RG3 only had the stats he had from the system and wat I was telling him was luck had worse stats cause he got destroyed cause his line was terrible its just dumb ppl really already give up on luck after one season with a terrible line and he even had a great season even with the line he is just that special