I JUST GOT INTO A FIGHT! HOW MANY TROPHIES DO WE HAVE?!

[tfunky14]

 Here is the answer:

 

Baltimore Colts 1958, 1959, 1968 NFL Champions  1970 Super Bowl V  It is all the record books as Baltimore Colts and does not mention Indy. The Super Bowl V replica trophy was awarded by the NFL to Baltimore,  and currently resides at Sports Legends at Camden Yards Museum. The NFL has basically admitted that these Championships belong to Baltimore, despite the silly franchise arguments.  This is why a Giant's fan scoffs that Indy has won two Super Bowls, and why you don't see Baltimore era banners and Championships in Indy. At least Irsay had the sense not to do this. The Baltimore Ravens won in 2000 and 2012, giving them six NFL Championships, while Indy has won one in 2006.  

 

If the Indy fan wants to claim the Baltimore Championships, they can try, but you'll get a universal argument from most NFL fans from other cities, that these events never happened there. Most of the teams that were stolen or relocated, stunk, and most never won anything. The Baltimore Colts were different because of their storied history. The only other equivilent may be the Brooklyn Dodgers, but their history wasn't nearly as golden as the Baltimore Colts. The Irsays may have bought the franchise, but they don't own history. The best thing they could do is abandon the old Championships, and let the old Hall of Famers move under the Ravens, as they all want to do. I know Johnny Unitas's son wants this. For the Baltimore Colts fan that moved from Baltimore to Indy, I guess you would follow the Colts whether they eventually moved to LA, or Timbucktoo. I would think if that would ever happen, the Indy fan would be outraged, especially if the city tried to claim Indy's 2006 Championship, and put Peyton Manning in an LA Colts section. After this happened, lets say Indianapolis was awarded a new team, the 500's. What would you do as an Indianapolis fan ? Support the team that left to LA and stole your records, or your new team ?Wouldn't you still want the Championship that was won in your city, that you have great memories of ? This is what the " Get over it," crowd will never understand. It's about empathy and fairness.

too a T..perfect..

[NewEra]

Baltimore have not won 6 championships. They have 2. Teams don't leave if the city and fans support them. So who is really to blame?

[schwamm]

I think the hardest thing is that there is really no place for these old Baltimore Colts and their fans to celebrate their past glories. As pointed out, some of the old 1970's Colts, Shula, and Berry have been to Indianapolis, but the majority of others, Unitas, Donovan, Matte, Stan White among others, see the Ravens as a natural extension of the Baltimore Colts, and will only go to M & T Bank Stadium. This is the city vs. franchise argument. I'm not sure it's transparent, I think it's downright confusing.I feel that the Baltimore/Cleveland and IndianapolisBaltimore moves are more like apples and oranges, than apples to apples. I think in the case of Raymond Berry, he really didn't keep his ties to Baltimore like most of the other old Colts did. Maybe because he was a coach for the Patriots, who knows. It's almost like this era of Colts football is in limbo.

Sad story. So you get to remember and celebrate the Colts glory days in Baltimore AND enjoy a winning Ravens team now... Poor old-timers. My heart bleeds...

[The Old Crow]

 

Sad story. So you get to remember and celebrate the Colts glory days in Baltimore AND enjoy a winning Ravens team now... Poor old-timers. My heart bleeds...

Why not.....It's all good. Two great era's to enjoy.

[GoColts8818]

  

As I've already pointed out , Baltimore got a crummy franchise when Cleveland moved to Baltimore. They had three straight losing seasons with Ted Marchibroda from 1996-1999, until Steve Biscotti got involved in 2000, and infused the need money into the team. You forget that Modell had to borrow money to sign Andre Rison when he was still in Cleveland. So I would argue that without Baltimore money, the Ravens would have never won in 2000 or 2012. Cleveland would never have won in 2000, as Modell didn't have a pot to do you know what in. So this Baltimore stole Cleveland's Super Bowls is extremely bogus.Also, Art won only won Super Bowl as he had passed away and had sold the team long before 2012.

One could also say that being able to hire Newsome who was in the Ravens front office dating back to 1991 when the team was still in Cleveland might have played a very key peace in the puzzle.  If the Ravens don't take the Browns franchise and get a flat out expansion team they probably wouldn't have Newsome in their front office and probably wouldn't have had Ray Lewis and Jonathan Ogden to build around as they were two of their first draft picks the Ravens had when the team moved to Baltimore thanks to having picks that belonged to the Browns.  Odds are they would have had Tim Couch like the Browns had and I think the history of the Ravens in Baltimore would have played very differently than it did.  Make no mistake the Ravens benefited from being an existing franchise rather than an expansion team.  It's not a reach to think to that Art Model would have still hired Newsome in 2002 no matter where the team was and it's not a reach to think that the same front office would have drafted the players they did regardless of what city they were in up till 2004 when Steve Bisciotti took full ownership of the Ravens.  Even then I am guessing that Newsome's drafting style wouldn't have changed greatly.  So I do think there is a case to be made that had the Browns stayed in Cleveland history might have very well worked out similar to the way it did.  We will never know though so it's coulda, woulda, shoulda. 

 

Also I am telling you how Cleveland fans are going to look at it.  You better darn well believe they are going to be bitter about their ex team winning two Super Bowls while they have had one playoff game since the move.  If Baltimore fans can sit there and yell at Indianapolis fans 30 years later you stole our team Cleveland fans can do the same to Baltimore fans.  Baltimore fans don't like it just like Indianapolis fans don't like it either because at the end of the day both cities did the samething.  They wanted a team, they knew they weren't going to get an expansion team so they only had one option left get a current team to move there and when one was willing to do so what were they supposed to do?  Say no?  Baltimore fans just try to make themselves feel better by saying the Browns left the history in Cleveland but I can promise you Browns fans would gladly give you the team name and the history if they could trade it for the two Super Bowl titles the Ravens have won since going to Cleveland and in Cleveland fans eyes it's no different than what happened when the Colts left town.  That's why they hate Art as much as Baltimore fans hate the Irsays.  I understand why both fans in both cities hate both families and I respect those fans right to do so.  I also don't fault Baltimore for getting the Browns to move to Baltimore and I don't fault Indianapolis for getting the Colts to move here either.  If Baltimore fans want to say it was different because the Ravens left the Browns history behind fine I am sure Cleveland fans wouldn't agree with Baltimore fans on that.  With that said I don't expect Baltimore fans to apologize for getting the Browns to move there and I don't think Indianapolis fans are ever going to apologize for the Colts moving either. 

[OldManP]

Because the Ravens franchise didn't win them his did.  To be honest I am sure the Raven's franchise wouldn't be thrilled about displaying titles their franchise didn't win either.  The Ravens have a very good franchise history that stands on it's own and it doesn't need the Colts history to make it stand on it's own.  If people in Baltimore want to embrace the football history in their town go for it.  I don't think anyone would really care but when the Ravens franchise starts trying to take credit for something that isn't really theirs it looks kinda cheap.  It would be like the Jets trying to take credit for the Giants history just because they are both from the same city.  They are still different franchises. 

 

It's kinda like the Colts fans who root for the Giants because Eli Manning is Peyton Manning's brother. 

 

The Indy Colts had nothing to do with the Johnny Unitas era or the Baltimore Colts championships.

[NewEra]

The Indy Colts had nothing to do with the Johnny Unitas era or the Baltimore Colts championships.

Whenever you get done with it. The city of Baltimore hasn't won crap. The TEAMS who were in the city of Baltimore did. And good thing we don't need to hold onto your sooo long ago Baltimore colts game cause we have carved out our own here in Indy.

[The Old Crow]

Because the Ravens franchise didn't win them his did.  To be honest I am sure the Raven's franchise wouldn't be thrilled about displaying titles their franchise didn't win either.  The Ravens have a very good franchise history that stands on it's own and it doesn't need the Colts history to make it stand on it's own.  If people in Baltimore want to embrace the football history in their town go for it.  I don't think anyone would really care but when the Ravens franchise starts trying to take credit for something that isn't really theirs it looks kinda cheap.  It would be like the Jets trying to take credit for the Giants history just because they are both from the same city.  They are still different franchises. 

 

It's kinda like the Colts fans who root for the Giants because Eli Manning is Peyton Manning's brother. 

 

The Indy Colts had nothing to do with the Johnny Unitas era or the Baltimore Colts championships.

 

The Ravens already have the Baltimore Football history of the Colts on their website, the Colts Ring of Honor in their stadium, and a Johnny Unitas statue outside their stadium. We have the super bowl five trophy in a Baltimore museum, so the people of the Baltimore are only taking credit for what was earned there, before the Irsays owned the team. The titles were earned there, the players played there, and the fans cheered there. I guess the point I'm making is the same people that say the Ravens look kind of cheap taking credit for something that really isn't theirs, would apply the same logic to the Indianapolis Colts claiming credit for Baltimore titles. This is why this thread started. It was probably a New Yorker, or something, that told an Indy fan they have one title in 2006, when that fan tried to bring up the  Super Bowl 5 win. I understand the franchise argument, but most NFL fans don't buy it.

[The Old Crow]

Whenever you get done with it. The city of Baltimore hasn't won crap. The TEAMS who were in the city of Baltimore did. And good thing we don't need to hold onto your sooo long ago Baltimore colts game cause we have carved out our own here in Indy.

 Yes, and you get full credit for your 2006 Championship. I guess the city of Indianapolis that provides stadium facilities, security, roads, and many other services , should not get any credit for any win. Lets call them the Irsay Colts, if you don't think a city or fans are important to a NFL franchise. There is something called civic pride , and not the monopoly of any ownership family, that makes these Championships special, be it in Baltimore, or Indianapolis. I would strongly argue that the cities of Baltimore and Indianapolis played pivitol roles in the team's Championships, and these titles belong equally the the owners, cities, and fans !  

[The Old Crow]

One could also say that being able to hire Newsome who was in the Ravens front office dating back to 1991 when the team was still in Cleveland might have played a very key peace in the puzzle.  If the Ravens don't take the Browns franchise and get a flat out expansion team they probably wouldn't have Newsome in their front office and probably wouldn't have had Ray Lewis and Jonathan Ogden to build around as they were two of their first draft picks the Ravens had when the team moved to Baltimore thanks to having picks that belonged to the Browns.  Odds are they would have had Tim Couch like the Browns had and I think the history of the Ravens in Baltimore would have played very differently than it did.  Make no mistake the Ravens benefited from being an existing franchise rather than an expansion team.  It's not a reach to think to that Art Model would have still hired Newsome in 2002 no matter where the team was and it's not a reach to think that the same front office would have drafted the players they did regardless of what city they were in up till 2004 when Steve Bisciotti took full ownership of the Ravens.  Even then I am guessing that Newsome's drafting style wouldn't have changed greatly.  So I do think there is a case to be made that had the Browns stayed in Cleveland history might have very well worked out similar to the way it did.  We will never know though so it's coulda, woulda, shoulda. 

 

Also I am telling you how Cleveland fans are going to look at it.  You better darn well believe they are going to be bitter about their ex team winning two Super Bowls while they have had one playoff game since the move.  If Baltimore fans can sit there and yell at Indianapolis fans 30 years later you stole our team Cleveland fans can do the same to Baltimore fans.  Baltimore fans don't like it just like Indianapolis fans don't like it either because at the end of the day both cities did the samething.  They wanted a team, they knew they weren't going to get an expansion team so they only had one option left get a current team to move there and when one was willing to do so what were they supposed to do?  Say no?  Baltimore fans just try to make themselves feel better by saying the Browns left the history in Cleveland but I can promise you Browns fans would gladly give you the team name and the history if they could trade it for the two Super Bowl titles the Ravens have won since going to Cleveland and in Cleveland fans eyes it's no different than what happened when the Colts left town.  That's why they hate Art as much as Baltimore fans hate the Irsays.  I understand why both fans in both cities hate both families and I respect those fans right to do so.  I also don't fault Baltimore for getting the Browns to move to Baltimore and I don't fault Indianapolis for getting the Colts to move here either.  If Baltimore fans want to say it was different because the Ravens left the Browns history behind fine I am sure Cleveland fans wouldn't agree with Baltimore fans on that.  With that said I don't expect Baltimore fans to apologize for getting the Browns to move there and I don't think Indianapolis fans are ever going to apologize for the Colts moving either. 

 

You also forget Ozzie Newsome won nothing in Cleveland, and neither did Bill Bellichick. I fully understand Cleveland's anger towards Modell, and I believe neither Modell or Irsay should ever get into the Hall of Fame. I would also boot Al Davis out also. I think all three cities are good NFL towns, and all did what they had to in getting a team. Like I said earlier, we would not have wanted to take credit, or have as part of the Raven's franchise, your Cleveland 1964 NFL title, the Otto Graham years, or your Cleveland Hall of Famers. We only wonder why Jim Irsay would still want ours, when Indy has carved out their own history, with their own Championship, and future Hall of Famers. Nobody is talking about apologizing, but just getting history back in it's right context.

[GoColts8818]

Because the Ravens franchise didn't win them his did.  To be honest I am sure the Raven's franchise wouldn't be thrilled about displaying titles their franchise didn't win either.  The Ravens have a very good franchise history that stands on it's own and it doesn't need the Colts history to make it stand on it's own.  If people in Baltimore want to embrace the football history in their town go for it.  I don't think anyone would really care but when the Ravens franchise starts trying to take credit for something that isn't really theirs it looks kinda cheap.  It would be like the Jets trying to take credit for the Giants history just because they are both from the same city.  They are still different franchises. 

 

It's kinda like the Colts fans who root for the Giants because Eli Manning is Peyton Manning's brother. 

 

The Indy Colts had nothing to do with the Johnny Unitas era or the Baltimore Colts championships.

Not even close to the samething.  One is fans liking another team.  The other is a franchise trying to take credit for another franchise's success just because they are in the same city. 

 

Some Colts fans happen to like Giants because of Eli but they aren't running around trying to give the Colts credit for the two Super Bowls that Eli won just because they like him.  The closet you get is some Colts fans that joke that Eli is an honorary Colt for beating the Pats twice in the Super Bowl but it's a joke and no one honestly tries to pass that off as Colts titles.

 

What some Ravens fans are trying to do is give the Ravens credit for titles that the Colts won just because both teams called Baltimore home when they won those titles.  It doesn't work that way.  Just because two teams shared the same city doesn't mean that franchise gets to lay claim to another team's titles.  That's the point I am trying to make by talking about the Giants and Jets.  It's franchises not cities that win titles.  It's players and other people that work for the teams that go out there and win them not the fans in the stands that win it despite what we think at times.

 

You can say Baltimore has seen two franchises win three Super Bowls and three World Championships and you would be 100% right.  However, the Ravens franchise has "only" won two Super Bowls.  The Colts franchise has won two Super Bowls and three World Championships.  However, when those stats are brought there is almost always the qualifier of they won the three world titles and one Super Bowl in Baltimore and one in Indianapolis.  So no I don't buy into the theory that Indianapolis tries to pretend like they saw all those titles.  If anything the city it's self pretty much just acknowledges what has happened in the city.  The franchise it's self though does lay claim to their whole franchise history which is well with in their right to do so because just because the franchise moves doesn't change the fact that the same franchise won those titles in another city.  That's why you see the city owned building, Lucas Oil Stadium only displaying Indianapolis Colts banners and an Indianapolis Colts ring of honor and my guess will be Peyton Manning's retired number when he is all done playing while not displaying the Baltimore Colts history.  However, the franchise still honors retired numbers from the Baltimore days even if they aren't displayed, is proud to host ex-Colts like Raymond Berry, and claims team records and championships dating back to their days in Baltimore even if they aren't displayed in the stadium. 

 

Colts fans have a right to be proud of their franchises history where ever titles were won.  It doesn't matter if they are a Colts fan in Indianapolis, Baltimore, or the moon.  They are Colts fans and they get to embrace the whole franchises history even if they didn't personally witness it.  I look at it this way.  If a Packers fan was only around for the last two or heck even the last Super Bowl title they won can they only brag about that one or can they still take pride in their team for winning Super Bowl I and II even if they weren't around for them?

[GoColts8818]

The Ravens already have the Baltimore Football history of the Colts on their website, the Colts Ring of Honor in their stadium, and a Johnny Unitas statue outside their stadium. We have the super bowl five trophy in a Baltimore museum, so the people of the Baltimore are only taking credit for what was earned there, before the Irsays owned the team. The titles were earned there, the players played there, and the fans cheered there. I guess the point I'm making is the same people that say the Ravens look kind of cheap taking credit for something that really isn't theirs, would apply the same logic to the Indianapolis Colts claiming credit for Baltimore titles. This is why this thread started. It was probably a New Yorker, or something, that told an Indy fan they have one title in 2006, when that fan tried to bring up the  Super Bowl 5 win. I understand the franchise argument, but most NFL fans don't buy it.

Except the Colts part IS theirs.  It's not Baltimore's or Indianapolis'.  It's the franchise's and that's the part we keep trying to tell you.  The Colts franchise has won three World Championships and two Super Bowls.  The three World Titles and Super Bowl while they were in Baltimore and one Super Bowl in Indianapolis.  No one is trying to say differently.  No one really has a problem with Baltimore wanting to celebrate what they witnessed either.  What they are saying is just because Baltimore saw it though doesn't mean it belongs to the Ravens franchise because it doesn't.  Even the Ravens would tell you that.  While they are proud of Baltimore sports history and want to honor that they understand that just because they now call Baltimore home doesn't make it their history.

 

Also I would guess most NFL fans outside of Baltimore really doesn't care and would probably wonder why Baltimore is still crying about something that happened 30 years ago when they have a new team that has won two Super Bowl titles for them.  It would be one thing if Baltimore still didn't have a team then people would feel bad for them but once they got a team people really stopped feeling bad for them because they got what they said they wanted.  Football back in Baltimore.  Now it's become well we don't have our history and team colors.  People really don't care.  My guess is if that if Baltimore got those colors and team history back then it would become Indianapolis denied us football for so many number of years.  It's always going to be something.  Honestly for a fanbase that says they have fully embraced the Ravens I have feeling there is a good chunk of Baltimore fans that if Irsay called and said tell you what you can have the Colts name, history, players, everything in exchange for the Ravens that a good chunk of those fans would do it in heart beat just so they can have the Colts back.  That's not embracing the Ravens that's the NFL equivalent of not being able to get over being dumped.  You aren't the only city that has lost a team.  The only different is the other cities got over it and moved on.  Also don't tell me your fanbase is over it because if they were they wouldn't be spending the week after winning the Super Bowl on the Colts message board trying to say Colts fans can't lay claim to the Colts history.  Honestly in 2015 the Colts will have spent more time in Indianapolis than in Baltimore at what point do they just become Indianapolis' Colts and stop being Baltimore's Colts that Indianapolis stole?

[The Old Crow]

I fully understand the franchise argument, but am telling you it doesn't hold much water with the regular NFL fan , whose comment basically started the thread. As I argued elsewhere, the city does play a huge part in a franchise providing a stadium, public services, and the fans.The taxpayers put up alot of money. I would say the cities and fans definately are part of this history, and technically own this history, despite what the NFL, or an ownership group says. Without the cities and the fans, the owners have nothing. Green Bay is probably how all these franchises should be run, being publically owned by the city. That should be the model. If you did that, no city would ever have to put up with another Al Davis, Modell, or Bob Irsay ever again. So there is precedent for a city owning their history.

[GoColts8818]

You also forget Ozzie Newsome won nothing in Cleveland, and neither did Bill Bellichick. I fully understand Cleveland's anger towards Modell, and I believe neither Modell or Irsay should ever get into the Hall of Fame. I would also boot Al Davis out also. I think all three cities are good NFL towns, and all did what they had to in getting a team. Like I said earlier, we would not have wanted to take credit, or have as part of the Raven's franchise, your Cleveland 1964 NFL title, the Otto Graham years, or your Cleveland Hall of Famers. We only wonder why Jim Irsay would still want ours, when Indy has carved out their own history, with their own Championship, and future Hall of Famers. Nobody is talking about apologizing, but just getting history back in it's right context.

I didn't forget it.  However if you think Ozzie Newsome became a good NFL GM just because he's in Baltimore and not Cleveland you have another thing coming.  Ozzie Newsome is a good GM because he's a good GM not because of the town he's in.  As for BB it's pretty clear he didn't have the talent he needed in Cleveland.  Had that same team been in Baltimore it would have been the same problem. 

 

I really don't think you have to worry about Bob Irsay going to the Hall of Fame.  Even Colts fans in Indianapolis would tell you the man was a horrible owner and a nut.  Frankly the best thing he did for the Colts in Indianapolis was have Jim Irsay for a son.  It's really hard to believe that Jim Irsay is his dad's son. 

 

It's not your history that's the point.  It's the COLTS franchise history and Jim Irsay owns the Colts and guess what Jim Irsay was a part of the Colts franchise in Baltimore maybe not the Super Bowl teams or the World Championships but he was working for the team in Baltimore.  It means something to him.  It's his property and his family paid a great deal to get it so if he wants to keep it that's his right.  Your city doesn't own that history just like Indianapolis doesn't own the team history here.  The Colts franchise owns it.  They are the ones that own it.  Does the city take pride in it?  Sure for both cases.  With that said Indianapolis tends to just celebrate what the team has done in Indianapolis and frankly I really don't think anyone in Indianapolis cares if Baltimore wants to celebrate the history of the Colts there.  With that said while the city of Baltimore has every right to celebrate what they say it doesn't give them ownership of it.  That officially belongs to the Colts.  If you have an issue with that then you need to talk to Jim Irsay but if you ever listen to Jim Irsay talk you can tell he loves the Colts and bleeds blue and white and is fully invested in the team.  I don't think he's going to part with it.  He's not his dad that just saw something as a chance to make a profit.  Honestly if Bob was still around for the right price I am sure Bob would have sold Baltimore the team history, colors, and names when Baltimore got a new team because that's all he cared about which is why his teams were never good.  However, it's not Bob it's Jim and Jim loves the Colts too much to part with them and takes great pride in being the owner of one of the most storied NFL teams in history. 

 

You are trying to marry Indianapolis and the Colts together as one thing.  They aren't.  One is a city that the one calls home.  The other is a pro-franchise.  That's really how you have to look at it.  You can see the divide.  The Colts franchise fully embraces their history while the city pretty much officially only celebrates what happened in the city.  Again look at my previous post about what is displayed in the city own building and what is embraced by the franchise. 

[GoColts8818]

I fully understand the franchise argument, but am telling you it doesn't hold much water with the regular NFL fan , whose comment basically started the thread. As I argued elsewhere, the city does play a huge part in a franchise providing a stadium, public services, and the fans.The taxpayers put up alot of money. I would say the cities and fans definately are part of this history, and technically own this history, despite what the NFL, or an ownership group says. Without the cities and the fans, the owners have nothing. Green Bay is probably how all these franchises should be run, being publically owned by the city. That should be the model. If you did that, no city would ever have to put up with another Al Davis, Modell, or Bob Irsay ever again. So there is precedent for a city owning their history.

Yes and when the city of Baltimore buys the Colts then you can take credit for owning the team.  The city of Baltimore does not own the Colts like Green Bay owns the Pakcers.  Jim Irsay does.  So the franchise history belongs to him not the city and as far as I know they aren't for sale.

 

Honestly that's what kinda gets lost in all this is that if the people of Baltimore hadn't forced the Colts hand by trying to enforce an eminent domain law to try to take ownership of the Colts from Bob Irsay there is a pretty good chance the Colts are still in Baltimore.  At the time Bob Irsay had narrowed his choices down to Indianapolis and Phoenix and Phoenix had pulled out of negations with Irsay leaving only Indianapolis.  Listen to Jim Irsay talk on the 30 for 30 documentary about the Colts band and Bob Irsay really didn't want to come to Indianapolis.  He was left with no other choice.  Had Baltimore not forced his hand I could have seen him staying with Baltimore if a new stadium had finally been agreed to be built rather than going to Indianapolis. 

[NewEra]

Yes and when the city of Baltimore buys the Colts then you can take credit for owning the team. The city of Baltimore does not own the Colts like Green Bay owns the Pakcers. Jim Irsay does. So the franchise history belongs to him not the city and as far as I know they aren't for sale.

Honestly that's what kinda gets lost in all this is that if the people of Baltimore hadn't forced the Colts hand by trying to enforce an eminent domain law to try to take ownership of the Colts from Bob Irsay there is a pretty good chance the Colts are still in Baltimore. At the time Bob Irsay had narrowed his choices down to Indianapolis and Phoenix and Phoenix had pulled out of negations with Irsay leaving only Indianapolis. Listen to Jim Irsay talk on the 30 for 30 documentary about the Colts band and Bob Irsay really didn't want to come to Indianapolis. He was left with no other choice. Had Baltimore not forced his hand I could have seen him staying with Baltimore if a new stadium had finally been agreed to be built rather than going to Indianapolis.

Exactly! I love how they say irsay stole the team and left Baltimore. It was his team to move or sell or whatever else he wanted to do with it. Just like any other business out there. The fans, the city of Baltimore should have done whatever needed if they wanted the team to stay in Baltimore, case closed

[unitaswestand]

I guess I don't really get the argument.   The Colts and the Ravens are two completely different teams.  Now, Baltimore can say they have had five world championship teams, and that is true.  But the fact is, the Colts won three of them and the Ravens won two.  And the team that won three is now the Indy Colts.   

 

You could bring instance after instance, but a good one is the Houston Texans and Houston Oilers.  Completely different teams.  The Texans can't take the Oilers history.  That belongs to Tennessee Titans.

 

As I have said, I am a COLTS fan.  I was a Baltimore Colt fan and now an Indy Colt fan.  I hate it when they are treated like different teams.

[The Old Crow]

Yes and when the city of Baltimore buys the Colts then you can take credit for owning the team.  The city of Baltimore does not own the Colts like Green Bay owns the Pakcers.  Jim Irsay does.  So the franchise history belongs to him not the city and as far as I know they aren't for sale.

 

Honestly that's what kinda gets lost in all this is that if the people of Baltimore hadn't forced the Colts hand by trying to enforce an eminent domain law to try to take ownership of the Colts from Bob Irsay there is a pretty good chance the Colts are still in Baltimore.  At the time Bob Irsay had narrowed his choices down to Indianapolis and Phoenix and Phoenix had pulled out of negations with Irsay leaving only Indianapolis.  Listen to Jim Irsay talk on the 30 for 30 documentary about the Colts band and Bob Irsay really didn't want to come to Indianapolis.  He was left with no other choice.  Had Baltimore not forced his hand I could have seen him staying with Baltimore if a new stadium had finally been agreed to be built rather than going to Indianapolis. 

 

 

I think the ironic thing is while everyone seems to rail against the eminent domain deal in 1984, the current administation in DC is doing just that in CT and other states. I think it was one of the most foolish things I've ever seen come out of Maryland politics. I'm not 100 % convinced that Irsay wouldn't have moved anyway, as he seemed very unstable during that time period. Watch some of the old press conferences, and they are just chilling. Also, he and his attorney, Mike Chernoff, were flying to secret negotiations in Indianapolis and Phoenix, not to mention stadium events in Jacksonville. By the early 80's he had traded away Bert Jones, Rodger Carr, and other great Colts. He drafted Art Schlichter, and traded John Elway for a mediocre package of players. I think alot of what Jim Irsay said was revisionist history, as I remember he penned and sang a song called, " Indy Bound," as the people of Baltimore suffered through this loss. I still believe they would have moved from Baltimore, because there was just too much bad blood built up by 1984.

[The Old Crow]

Exactly! I love how they say irsay stole the team and left Baltimore. It was his team to move or sell or whatever else he wanted to do with it. Just like any other business out there. The fans, the city of Baltimore should have done whatever needed if they wanted the team to stay in Baltimore, case closed

 

 

I think it would have been nice had he just moved to Indianapolis, and left all the records and logos back in Baltimore. It just would have been a cleaner break, and that is why the NFL forced Modell to let Cleveland keep the Browns colors and history. I'm not sure I would want a team named after Paul Brown, although he was a heck of a coach.

 

 

As horse racing is big in Baltimore, and not quite as big in Indy, the Colts nickname in Indy, is similar to the Utah Jazz who moved from New Orleans. I think the nickname should fit the city and state where the team plays in.

[The Old Crow]

I guess I don't really get the argument.   The Colts and the Ravens are two completely different teams.  Now, Baltimore can say they have had five world championship teams, and that is true.  But the fact is, the Colts won three of them and the Ravens won two.  And the team that won three is now the Indy Colts.   

 

You could bring instance after instance, but a good one is the Houston Texans and Houston Oilers.  Completely different teams.  The Texans can't take the Oilers history.  That belongs to Tennessee Titans.

 

As I have said, I am a COLTS fan.  I was a Baltimore Colt fan and now an Indy Colt fan.  I hate it when they are treated like different teams.

 

The difference is that there isn't much NFL or Championship history with the Houston Oilers. Bud Adams should also have let the history alone in Houston, and started with fresh history in Tennessee.  I loved when the Titans wore old Houston Oiler retro uniforms. Would the Colts where old Baltimore Colt ponchos and jackets ?  I've found that most fans that are pure Colt fans, lived in neither Baltimore or Indy. They just follow the horseshoes, which is fine, but most follow their city's or region's teams. I would bet this type of fan is 5 % of the fan base, with maybe 2 % of that bandwagoneers that jump on the top teams.

[The Old Crow]

I didn't forget it.  However if you think Ozzie Newsome became a good NFL GM just because he's in Baltimore and not Cleveland you have another thing coming.  Ozzie Newsome is a good GM because he's a good GM not because of the town he's in.  As for BB it's pretty clear he didn't have the talent he needed in Cleveland.  Had that same team been in Baltimore it would have been the same problem. 

 

I really don't think you have to worry about Bob Irsay going to the Hall of Fame.  Even Colts fans in Indianapolis would tell you the man was a horrible owner and a nut.  Frankly the best thing he did for the Colts in Indianapolis was have Jim Irsay for a son.  It's really hard to believe that Jim Irsay is his dad's son. 

 

It's not your history that's the point.  It's the COLTS franchise history and Jim Irsay owns the Colts and guess what Jim Irsay was a part of the Colts franchise in Baltimore maybe not the Super Bowl teams or the World Championships but he was working for the team in Baltimore.  It means something to him.  It's his property and his family paid a great deal to get it so if he wants to keep it that's his right.  Your city doesn't own that history just like Indianapolis doesn't own the team history here.  The Colts franchise owns it.  They are the ones that own it.  Does the city take pride in it?  Sure for both cases.  With that said Indianapolis tends to just celebrate what the team has done in Indianapolis and frankly I really don't think anyone in Indianapolis cares if Baltimore wants to celebrate the history of the Colts there.  With that said while the city of Baltimore has every right to celebrate what they say it doesn't give them ownership of it.  That officially belongs to the Colts.  If you have an issue with that then you need to talk to Jim Irsay but if you ever listen to Jim Irsay talk you can tell he loves the Colts and bleeds blue and white and is fully invested in the team.  I don't think he's going to part with it.  He's not his dad that just saw something as a chance to make a profit.  Honestly if Bob was still around for the right price I am sure Bob would have sold Baltimore the team history, colors, and names when Baltimore got a new team because that's all he cared about which is why his teams were never good.  However, it's not Bob it's Jim and Jim loves the Colts too much to part with them and takes great pride in being the owner of one of the most storied NFL teams in history. 

 

You are trying to marry Indianapolis and the Colts together as one thing.  They aren't.  One is a city that the one calls home.  The other is a pro-franchise.  That's really how you have to look at it.  You can see the divide.  The Colts franchise fully embraces their history while the city pretty much officially only celebrates what happened in the city.  Again look at my previous post about what is displayed in the city own building and what is embraced by the franchise. 

 

 

I know that Indianapolis fans also had an unfortunate similar experience with Bob Irsay from 1984-1997, with horrible teams, and mismanagement. Jim Irsay originally did a poor job as GM of the team during these years, However, he did do a good job as owner once he took over ownership, and hired a professional football man in Bill Polian. He also had the good fortune of selecting Peyton Manning in that early draft, who in my opinion, is right behind Unitas and Montana. He made a bold move letting Manning go, and going with Luck. The book obviously has not been written on this one yet, so we'll have to see how it turns out.

 

You are right in that Newsome is a good GM. However, it does help with the city provides good facilities for free agents and the like. I am surprised that Jim Irsay is kind of a funky, fun, kind of owner. His father was anything but that. It is pretty funny how he gived out money on his twitter account, but I was shocked that he put those disheveled pictures of himself on there, knowing that his father had a problem with alcohol. I agree that the franchise is storied, but the Irsay family have contributed only one NFL Championship in 40 years that they've owned the team. Jim still has a ways to go to match the success of the Rosenbloom years.

[Fx Stryker]

The difference is that there isn't much NFL or Championship history with the Houston Oilers. Bud Adams should also have let the history alone in Houston, and started with fresh history in Tennessee.  I loved when the Titans wore old Houston Oiler retro uniforms. Would the Colts where old Baltimore Colt ponchos and jackets ?  I've found that most fans that are pure Colt fans, lived in neither Baltimore or Indy. They just follow the horseshoes, which is fine, but most follow their city's or region's teams. I would bet this type of fan is 5 % of the fan base, with maybe 2 % of that bandwagoneers that jump on the top teams.

 

Just saying the Oilers won the first two AFL Championships. 

 

I wasn't fortunate enough to watch Johnny, or Baltimore for that case, but the history of the franchise is one of the reasons I love the Colts.

[The Old Crow]

The Oilers did in fact win those first two AFL Championships, but they certainly didn't have the impact of the Colt's NFL Championship in 1958. Unitas was unbelievable to watch. He was an incredibly loyal man, who loved the city of Baltimore. I don't believe he ever disliked Indy, it's just that he didn't play there. It's a shame in Super Bowl's 3 and 5, he was a bit older, and quite banged up.Shula blew Super Bowl 3 by going with Morrall and not replacing him until the fourth quarter. If you ever watch that game, the Colts should have killed them, and the game should have been over by the 1st quarter. That 1968 team was unbelievable at 13-1, as was the 1967 team that went 11-1-2, and didn't even make the playoffs ! I guess if you're a Colts fan from any era, you have some of the greatest quarterbacks in Unitas or Manning to enjoy. I feel fortunate I saw those old Colt teams, the Raven's era, and I even saw Peyton beat the Ravens in Baltimore 15-6, and the Ravens beat Luck this year. It's still wierd seeing those horseshoes in Baltimore. I wonder how Jim Irsay really feels when he comes back to Baltimore ?

[GoColts8818]

I think the ironic thing is while everyone seems to rail against the eminent domain deal in 1984, the current administation in DC is doing just that in CT and other states. I think it was one of the most foolish things I've ever seen come out of Maryland politics. I'm not 100 % convinced that Irsay wouldn't have moved anyway, as he seemed very unstable during that time period. Watch some of the old press conferences, and they are just chilling. Also, he and his attorney, Mike Chernoff, were flying to secret negotiations in Indianapolis and Phoenix, not to mention stadium events in Jacksonville. By the early 80's he had traded away Bert Jones, Rodger Carr, and other great Colts. He drafted Art Schlichter, and traded John Elway for a mediocre package of players. I think alot of what Jim Irsay said was revisionist history, as I remember he penned and sang a song called, " Indy Bound," as the people of Baltimore suffered through this loss. I still believe they would have moved from Baltimore, because there was just too much bad blood built up by 1984.

You could very well be right about that but we'll never know.  The eminent domain thing forced Irsay's hand though had Baltimore not done that who knows what would have happened.  You are right they might very well have moved anyways but the eminent domain thing sealed the fate. 

[GoColts8818]

I know that Indianapolis fans also had an unfortunate similar experience with Bob Irsay from 1984-1997, with horrible teams, and mismanagement. Jim Irsay originally did a poor job as GM of the team during these years, However, he did do a good job as owner once he took over ownership, and hired a professional football man in Bill Polian. He also had the good fortune of selecting Peyton Manning in that early draft, who in my opinion, is right behind Unitas and Montana. He made a bold move letting Manning go, and going with Luck. The book obviously has not been written on this one yet, so we'll have to see how it turns out.

Jim Irsay has joked that the best thing he ever did for the Colts was fire himself as General Manger when he pretty much became owner of the team.  The first guy he brought in was Bill Tobin to run the team but because he had to get it by his dad who still owned the team technically but he hadn't had anything to do with the Colts for a while because he was in poor health.  Honestly the Colts turn around started with the 95 team and Harbaugh's magic season which is about the time Jim Irsay started calling the shots as pretty much owner of the team.  IMO Jim Irsay is one of the better owners in all of sports and it's really hard to believe he is his dad's son.  He clearly learned from all of his dad's mistakes. 

You are right in that Newsome is a good GM. However, it does help with the city provides good facilities for free agents and the like. I am surprised that Jim Irsay is kind of a funky, fun, kind of owner. His father was anything but that. It is pretty funny how he gived out money on his twitter account, but I was shocked that he put those disheveled pictures of himself on there, knowing that his father had a problem with alcohol. I agree that the franchise is storied, but the Irsay family have contributed only one NFL Championship in 40 years that they've owned the team. Jim still has a ways to go to match the success of the Rosenbloom years.

While I agree the Colts history is the Colts history I think you can break it down into eras, clearly there is a Baltimore era and an Indy era and separate eras within that.  Same can be said about owners.  Clearly the Jim Irsay era has been very different from the Bob Irsay era.  Jim Irsay pretty much took over ownership in 1995 (he didn't officially take over later but his dad was in such bad health he was pretty much calling all the shots) and since that time the Colts have been in the playoffs every year but four times, 1997, 1998, 2001, and 2011.  He might not have as many championships as Rosenbloom did but winning championships is hard and it's harder in today's NFL where the rules favor teams going up and down.  I would say Jim Irsay has done everything you can ask for from an owner and I've always thought Jim is one of those people who will never be happy with just turning a profit.  He wants to win and if what he is doing isn't winning he's going to tear it down and try something else. 

[Fx Stryker]

The Oilers did in fact win those first two AFL Championships, but they certainly didn't have the impact of the Colt's NFL Championship in 1958. Unitas was unbelievable to watch. He was an incredibly loyal man, who loved the city of Baltimore. I don't believe he ever disliked Indy, it's just that he didn't play there. It's a shame in Super Bowl's 3 and 5, he was a bit older, and quite banged up.Shula blew Super Bowl 3 by going with Morrall and not replacing him until the fourth quarter. If you ever watch that game, the Colts should have killed them, and the game should have been over by the 1st quarter. That 1968 team was unbelievable at 13-1, as was the 1967 team that went 11-1-2, and didn't even make the playoffs ! I guess if you're a Colts fan from any era, you have some of the greatest quarterbacks in Unitas or Manning to enjoy. I feel fortunate I saw those old Colt teams, the Raven's era, and I even saw Peyton beat the Ravens in Baltimore 15-6, and the Ravens beat Luck this year. It's still wierd seeing those horseshoes in Baltimore. I wonder how Jim Irsay really feels when he comes back to Baltimore ?

 

I don't get the first hand experience, but there is tons of footage of the 60's and 70's games. Really awesome to watch.

 

The '58 Championship, radio broadcast with clips mixed in, and Super Bowl III are on Youtube in it's entirety.

[bayone]

If you were arguing with a bitter Baltimorian they will say the Colts have 1 Super Bowl.

 

They won't credit the Super Bowl V trophy to us, nor the '58 and '59 championships for that matter.

 

But many fans here have watched those games.

 

So we have two. One in Baltimore and one in Indy. It all depends on who you are talking to.

 

& I include 58 & 59

[schwamm]

& I include 58 & 59

How dare you, sir.

Only people with documented evidence both that they lived in Baltimore at the time and that they were fans of the Baltimore Colts only (as in not the Indy Colts) are entitled to enjoy titles.

Now I am taking my ball and going home. You can't play with it any more.

[bayone]

How dare you, sir.

Only people with documented evidence both that they lived in Baltimore at the time and that they were fans of the Baltimore Colts only (as in not the Indy Colts) are entitled to enjoy titles.

Now I am taking my ball and going home. You can't play with it any more.

 

u r funny

 

Love all colts , born in 53

 

from my profile

 

First Pack of football cards ever bought had a Johnny U card in it sometime late 50's Colt Fan ever since . My brother's older friend by 6 years thought it was the coolest thing. I lived in Brooklyn, NY then, now live in LION country & childhood friend lives in Pat country which proves interesting

================================================

 

I believe too that was his rookie card in  57 though he was a colt in 56, back then rookie cards could come out years after one ist  plays

 

whatever your first card was was considered your rookie, I am looking at a slabbed gradeed one right now

 

though thats my favorite card for who it is, my most beutiful cards are the earlier Bopwman series , esp large versions that look like poaintings

 

​The rookie cards of Gino Marchetti & Art Donovan in 1952 Bowmans in Dallas Texan uniforms, the team that became the Baltimore Colts in 53 are easily the best looking as are similar  Bowman Colt cards from back then ,  53 & 54 colt ,  my oldest card is a small thing called the topps magic series , a 1951 of  starting kicker in 58 game, bert  rechichar considered also his rookie card made by tops, though he is in a college uniform, also have his beuty Bowmans and of course many many cards of many years of the 58 & 59 players but most all of the team from 58 series as that was theeeeee yeeeear 

 

OK can i now inclufde 58 & 59 my friend ( LOL )  of course all slabbed and graded so can look at them for pleasure, they may not be top grade , to costly, but they mean the world to me and surley look great enough

=======================================

 

PS

 

I can remember vividly a hurt Unitas coming off bench and driving late in game for win when threw a diving IT , think to Johnny Sample Vs Jets

 

as easily as can remember Peytons late IT in SB 44

[bayone]

How dare you, sir.

Only people with documented evidence both that they lived in Baltimore at the time and that they were fans of the Baltimore Colts only (as in not the Indy Colts) are entitled to enjoy titles.

Now I am taking my ball and going home. You can't play with it any more.

 

 

& Yes I have Indy Colt Cards to slabbed & graded. I am an = opportunity Colt ,(  now that's a line LOL  )

 

& BTW  on your profile Hats Off to Clockwork Orange , I remember seeing it in the Brighton Beach, Brooklyn Movie theatre across from  where Coney Islands Started , or at least the start of the beach area when first came out

 

I was in awe, I loved it but my girlfriend hated the viloence

[schwamm]

u r funny

Love all colts , born in 53

from my profile

First Pack of football cards ever bought had a Johnny U card in it sometime late 50's Colt Fan ever since . My brother's older friend by 6 years thought it was the coolest thing. I lived in Brooklyn, NY then, now live in LION country & childhood friend lives in Pat country which proves interesting

================================================

I believe too that was his rookie card in 57 though he was a colt in 56, back then rookie cards could come out years after one ist plays

whatever your first card was was considered your rookie, I am looking at a slabbed gradeed one right now

though thats my favorite card for who it is, my most beutiful cards are the earlier Bopwman series , esp large versions that look like poaintings

​The rookie cards of Gino Marchetti & Art Donovan in 1952 Bowmans in Dallas Texan uniforms, the team that became the Baltimore Colts in 53 are easily the best looking as are similar Bowman Colt cards from back then , 53 & 54 colt , my oldest card is a small thing called the topps magic series , a 1951 of starting kicker in 58 game, bert rechichar considered also his rookie card made by tops, though he is in a college uniform, also have his beuty Bowmans and of course many many cards of many years of the 58 & 59 players but most all of the team from 58 series as that was theeeeee yeeeear

OK can i now inclufde 58 & 59 my friend ( LOL ) of course all slabbed and graded so can look at them for pleasure, they may not be top grade , to costly, but they mean the world to me and surley look great enough

=======================================

PS

I can remember vividly a hurt Unitas coming off bench and driving late in game for win when threw a diving IT , think to Johnny Sample Vs Jets

as easily as can remember Peytons late IT in SB 44

Truth be told, while I am old enough to have watched plenty of B'more Colts football, I wasn't really a follower. I was a big Giants fan until I moved to Indy in '88.

However, a big part of my transition to a diehard Colts fan was becoming fascinated by the whole Mayflower, cover-of-darkness move. Through that, I learned to really appreciate the full history of the franchise, and to love its lore and legends, as well as its darker moments.

I guess I don't understand the need to compartmentalize and possess history. I'm not a Bears fan, but I can enjoy what Walter Peyton did. I'm not a Packers fan, but love how unique the team, stadium, and community are.

I am not just an Indianapolis Colts fan. I am a fan of the horseshoe, and all the history that represents. Why should I be told I'm not entitled to feel that way, just because I'm not 65 years old, not living in Baltimore, and not disinclined to love what is happening in Indy?

Btw, Bayone, I have never collected playing cards, so you're talking a foreign language to me, my friend.

[bayone]

Truth be told, while I am old enough to have watched plenty of B'more Colts football, I wasn't really a follower. I was a big Giants fan until I moved to Indy in '88.

However, a big part of my transition to a diehard Colts fan was becoming fascinated by the whole Mayflower, cover-of-darkness move. Through that, I learned to really appreciate the full history of the franchise, and to love its lore and legends, as well as its darker moments.

I guess I don't understand the need to compartmentalize and possess history. I'm not a Bears fan, but I can enjoy what Walter Peyton did. I'm not a Packers fan, but love how unique the team, stadium, and community are.

I am not just an Indianapolis Colts fan. I am a fan of the horseshoe, and all the history that represents. Why should I be told I'm not entitled to feel that way, just because I'm not 65 years old, not living in Baltimore, and not disinclined to love what is happening in Indy?

Btw, Bayone, I have never collected playing cards, so you're talking a foreign language to me, my friend.

My Brother raised me not on 1 NY  team, Save For Brooklyn Dodgers &I have slabbed & graded 1 of less than 10 & in great condition an unused Dodger ticket from last game at home at Ebbsettd Field , Brroklyn

 

 Favorite teams were really based in an Idle he had from each sport tthen  , Maplel;eafs for Frank Mahovlich, Hawks, then st louis not atlanta for Bob Petit , etc etc etc

 

I stick with 1 team forever, but appreciate all great playmakers &n their abilities, football is my Favcorite sport, once dodgers ended their glory days in 60's but still favorite baseball  team though messed up for sure

=========================================================

slabbed cards are cards sealed in Plastic , authenticated and given to a 3rd party that grades trhem  using about 4 graders given a consensus grade, 1 through 10 pending sometimes on really slight changes in coloration or just off center etc ,, Higher the grade = more value

 

Modern Cards all grade near top 9 & 10

 

I only have colt cards this way

 

all my other cards collected as a kid,  Well heres a story 

 

DAD & FOOTBALL<

BASEBALL CARDS

You will love this, I had every football

& baseball card at least 1 of in great condition from about 1955 on till

70's and who knew they would be of value so when great dad asked , and I knew

how deidcated he was to his special ed students of 40 + years teaching, as

even I found out at his eulogy that he was gone on Thanksgiving Morning as was

giving toys he bought to kids in hospital & he paid poor students Medical

bills and bought them glasses etc , and was so great to me so as was saying he

asked for the cards for his special ed students, & they called them a worse

name then I couldnt say no when he asked , so there were all these the special

ed kids with all these great cards on the spokes of their bicycles to make this

great roaring noise as they rode , but hey I did it too, all kids did in the

60's & 70's----------------------------------------

 

Have to go meet a wheel chair vamn now to take mom to Dr, take care my friend, nice chatting

[The Old Crow]

Truth be told, while I am old enough to have watched plenty of B'more Colts football, I wasn't really a follower. I was a big Giants fan until I moved to Indy in '88.

However, a big part of my transition to a diehard Colts fan was becoming fascinated by the whole Mayflower, cover-of-darkness move. Through that, I learned to really appreciate the full history of the franchise, and to love its lore and legends, as well as its darker moments.

I guess I don't understand the need to compartmentalize and possess history. I'm not a Bears fan, but I can enjoy what Walter Peyton did. I'm not a Packers fan, but love how unique the team, stadium, and community are.

I am not just an Indianapolis Colts fan. I am a fan of the horseshoe, and all the history that represents. Why should I be told I'm not entitled to feel that way, just because I'm not 65 years old, not living in Baltimore, and not disinclined to love what is happening in Indy?

Btw, Bayone, I have never collected playing cards, so you're talking a foreign language to me, my friend.

 

 

The whole Mayflower deal is a fascinating story , for sure. There are a million sides to it, and alot of complexity. Obviously, you can enjoy any era you want, if you are the pure Colts fans. Franchise's moving, do create alot of questions about who has the history or records. If you go by the franchise argument, it's pretty cut and dry. From an intellectual property /fan/city standpoint, it's a little more murky. I was on a Steeler's forum the other day, and they linked the Browns/Ravens franchise into one. They said the Ravens had only won 2 superbowls in 55 years. I'm assuming they said this because they are dying that the Ravens have tied them for Super Bowl victories since they came into the league in 1996. Pretty funny.

 

I'm one of those fans that follows the city I was born in, and their team. Honestly, I've never understood the fan that is suddenly a Patriots fan, unless his father came from Boston , or something, and they are from that city. If a fan doesn't have an NFL team, that is a different story. I will never be a bandwagoneer. If I moved to Seattle, I would still be a Raven's fan. When the Colts moved to Indy, I just stopped following the NFL for 12 years, until the Ravens arrived. However, like most in Baltimore, we still have a soft spot in our hearts for the old Baltimore Colts, and we've passed that love and history down to our kids. Johnny Unitas, and those old Colts, are as revered as the old Baltimore Orioles teams under Earl Weaver. Those eight Hall of Fame Colts, are right there with Brooks and Frank Robinson, Cal Ripken, Jim Palmer, Eddie Murray, and the others. They are wound tightly into the fabric of Baltimore Sports History, and nothing can erase that.  We get the same thing that the Indy fan gets when they bring up these Championships, that wasn't you, it was Indy. All I'm thinking is, heck, I was in the stadium when we beat the Raiders in the 1970 Championship game. It was my team at the time, why isn't it my history. The NFL , and pro football Hall of Fame say it isn't, but it's hard for me to reconcile. I enjoyed Super Bowl's 35 and 47, but have fond memories of Super Bowl 5, as a kid. I really didn't enjoy Super Bowl 3. As started in this thread, the Indy fan gets the same treatment, probably from an annoying loser Jet's fan. It just seems this heritage is in somewhat of a historic limbo intellectually.

[The Old Crow]

How dare you, sir.

Only people with documented evidence both that they lived in Baltimore at the time and that they were fans of the Baltimore Colts only (as in not the Indy Colts) are entitled to enjoy titles.

Now I am taking my ball and going home. You can't play with it any more.

 

 

That is correct. If your baltimore passport is stamped from that time, you get credit for a few titles, a trip to the Hall of fame, 1 crab cake, and a can of Old Bay. We'll even let you ride on the USS Constellation at the Inner Harbor for free ! LOL 

[BIGugly]

ok, ok...tell me again why "The Colts" were run out of baltimore.....something to do with an illegal eminent domain suit being filed or such a matter????

 

or was it because the referendum to build a new stadium was defeated????

 

or was it because the attendance dropped off (20,000 or a little over) as result of the boycot against the team owner...and the owner was NOT baltimore...???

 

and since the owner was NOT baltimore, everything the Colts earned....ummmm...let me see.....OH...OH...goes with the COLTS !!!

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

No city won anything. It's the team as in Colts team. If Irsay for what ever his reason being was to move HIS team to Indy that is his business and his teams accomplishments to take with him. Totally different with Cleveland. They moved their team and changed it to the ravens. Leaving the browns name and whatever else with the city. Raiders, rams and others have bounced around and their history has went with them. Baltimore is just * cause the team left. Well if they were handling their business right I see no reason why to pick up and move. So the eggs on their face. IMHO of course ;)

I Agree

 

The Colts history is just that regardless of the city . When reading the history of the event  it comes down to facts the politicians & voters  failed the team & then tried to use eminent domain to sanction legalized theft  forcing  the owner & franchise to relocate . Many teams have relocated ,the sourest grapes are in Baltimore . I say reread history instead trying to rewrite it Bob Irsay tried to protect his investment Kinda like Art Modell ? maybe .

 

I say to the old players today just like back then the NFL is a

business , With teams like the Rams & Cardinals & the Raiders

& Colts & the Chargers who I believe started in L.A moved there

team history & all that entailed went with , Not that I or any fans I

know celebrate those wins to me there irrelevant & mean nothing ,

Enjoy the memories , For there old players your franchise & history are here in Indy  , I lived in L.A I remember the Rams leaving & the Raiders arriving & then they left again stuff happens ..

 

Baltimore Raven history started in Baltimore the politicians & voters are  smarter now so enjoy there SB wins & Let go of the past as long as history don't repeat it self there will never be a L.A Ravens .

 

                                       

[BIGugly]

L.A. Ravens...L.A. Ravens...kinda has a ring to it, doesn't it ?

 

How about Indy Orioles?  hmmmm...just sayin'....

[NewEra]

I'm feel real young now thanks guys! ;) 37 year old tender foot, heh

[The Old Crow]

ok, ok...tell me again why "The Colts" were run out of baltimore.....something to do with an illegal eminent domain suit being filed or such a matter????

 

or was it because the referendum to build a new stadium was defeated????

 

or was it because the attendance dropped off (20,000 or a little over) as result of the boycot against the team owner...and the owner was NOT baltimore...???

 

and since the owner was NOT baltimore, everything the Colts earned....ummmm...let me see.....OH...OH...goes with the COLTS !!!

 

All of the above contributed to the Colts leaving, as well as the mismanagement of Bob Irsay that changed a Championship team into a laughingstock from 1972-1984, with the exception of three years. He did the same thing in Indy, was the exception of 1995. No Championships. Like I said, the owner doesn't have to take the history. Modell didn't, but that didn't happen in the Baltimore case. Technically it may be with the Colts, but you only have one trophy, which started this thread. The Super Bowl 5 trophy is in Baltimore. Maybe we can sue the estate of Georgia Frontiere's family, and get the original for Indy, then you'd have two.

[The Old Crow]

L.A. Ravens...L.A. Ravens...kinda has a ring to it, doesn't it ?

 

How about Indy Orioles?  hmmmm...just sayin'....

  I think if memory serves me correctly, it was almost LA Colts. Wasn't that how they got Lucas Oil stadium built ? I don't know about the Indy Orioles, but how about the Indy Pirates ? It has a better ring to it. LOL