Jarvis Jones or David Amerson

[coltsguy510]

Argument for Jarvis Jones as the #1 pick for us: Jones is an elite pass rusher. He plays the 3-4 linebacker position already and won't need to transition. Underrated coverage linebacker. Explosive, good size, violent hands, and great closing speed. We need a OLB of the future and Jones projects as a top 3 pass rusher in the league.

Argument for David Amerson as the #1 pick for us: Ballhawk. Great cover skills. Very good size for position, which allows him to match up with most receivers. Amazing instincts. Could play safety if needed. Strong athlete. Corner is our greatest need.

Feel free to pitch in.

[Moncrief]

I think I asked this question awhile back

Amerson or Xavier Rhodes

EDIT: http://forums.colts....ou-rather-have/

[Gavin]

Its a matter of what will be available in the second and where we will be drafting because you cant go wrong with either of those players at this point it seems, but t for what you will be asking each of those players to do (Pass Rush and Cover) I will take Amerson because you will be able to get an excellent pass rusher in the second, But My choice if he is there is Amerson

[coltnorth]

Depends on Freeney. If he plays well as the hybrid OLB/DE and comes back, Amerson. If Freeney doesn't pan out or doesn't come back, Jarvis.

[21isSuperman]

It is too early to say as the decision depends on a number of things, like how Freeney and Mathis do in the 3-4 and how Hughes and Fugger do. As of now, I'd go with Amerson.

[Nobody]

Amerson fills a bigger need, and is a more special talent, IMO?

[Gavin]

I always think good to great Corners have a bigger impact, now of course Linebackers do, But to my original point or example, there was 493 pass attempts against us last year (which is very little considering other teams throwing numbers we ranked 26th in pass attempts being thrown on yeams didnt throw on us much at all). But here is my point, We got to the quarterback 29 times last year out of 493 passes and have only been a top tier team at getting to the quarterback with Freeney and Mathis 3 times, pass rushers do in fact have a far less impact in the passing game then a top Corner does, The Dallas Cowboys got to the Quarterback 50 times last year thats good for 7th (tied with 3 other teams) and there pass defense was still 23rd in the league and there completion percentage given up was 21st

[coltsguy510]

I think that Jones and Amerson are on the same tier talent-wise.

[Gavin]

Not sure how to judge that since they play different positions but I do know that you can send Amerson on a Corner blitz and have the safety cover just like you can have Jones blitz. I keep thinking 6'3 with shutdown cover abilities yeah I will take a guy thats 6'3 that can cover over a pass rushing linebacker who will reach the quarterback X number of times a season and thats it

[Gavin]

Freeney and Mathis combined sack total since 2003 and passing rank in yards those years

2003-16.5 sacks-5th in total passing yard given up (but teams ran all over us we ranked 20th in stopping the run)

2004-26.5 sacks-28th in passing yard given up

2005-22.5 sacks-15th in passng yards given up

2006-16 sacks-2nd but teams ran all over us we were 32nd in rushing yards given up (last)

2007-10.5 sacks 2nd in passing yards given up

2008-22 sacks 6th passing yards given up

2009-23 sacks-14th passing yards given up

2010-21 sacks-13th passing yards given up

2011-18 sacks 15th passing yards given up

the year that they reached the Quarterback the most we were 28th in passing yards, the year that they got there the least we were 2nd but also some of those years above we were ran all over like our front line only had Freeney and Mathis and no defensive tackles (Not sure you could call the players we had at that position defensive tackles really)

[FightLikeSin]

My biggest concern about Amerson is that I think he'll be asked to play safety. Xavier Rhodes is another great option who is 6'2" but runs a bit faster at 4.46.

I've made my case for Jarvis Jones. But I'll say this ; If Jerry Hughes or Tim Fugger can show me that they are capable of playing the position, I'd be fine with not taking an OLB next year in the first round.

[Gavin]

I think it would be a uneccesary risk for our coaches to ask Amerson to play Safety when he already plays Corner so well. In other words you dont start moving around players that do one thing very well just because they have the size and speed to play another position, if you need anothe rplayer at a position then you go out and get a player that can actually play his position but I am seemingly 1 of the few that tom Tom Z will work out well at Safety

[FightLikeSin]

I think it would be a uneccesary risk for our coaches to ask Amerson to play Safety when he already plays Corner so well. In other words you dont start moving around players that do one thing very well just because they have the size and speed to play another position, if you need anothe rplayer at a position then you go out and get a player that can actually play his position but I am seemingly 1 of the few that tom Tom Z will work out well at Safety

That's true for players that are already in the league. But it's the difference of playing in NCAA vs NFL. It's the same reason why a lot of college DE's go on to play at OLB or DT's go on to play at DE. Amerson doesn't play a lot of man to man, he lives in zone schemes which worries me. He's great at going after the ball and he's a good tackler. That doesn't sound like a corner to me. That sounds like a free safety. He's more Ed Reed than he is Darrelle Revis.

All I'm saying is, it's not hard to think someone would rather use him as a FS. For the scheme we're heading into, Xavier Rhodes looks like a much better pick in my opinion.

[coltsguy510]

Jones is not your typical pass rusher, because he isn't just a pass rusher. He is very good against the run and in coverage as well. I think that he is just to big a talent for us to pass up.

[Gavin]

And not alot go on to be successful when they change positions in the NFL overall, some do but not many over all, here is just what one draft scout site says about him http://draftdatabase...n-cb-n-c-state/ they seem to not know if he is a safety or a Corner either, personally if the fact that 6'3" and 210lbs or whatever he is at this point is the only reason to put him at Free Safety then I would put him at Corner, at 6'3 he could match up with the tallest wide receivers in the league and the guy has great leaping ability. As for Jones, he is a great pass rusher, I like him but you dont pass up on the best Corner in the draft when there are more pass rushers then shutdown Corners coming out next year. I just showed Freeney and Mathises sack numbers and thats out of a ton of pass attempts, pass rushers have a smaller impact on the game compared to a Corner, just look at the number of sacks the Cowboys got and where they still ranked in passing yards given up.

[Moncrief]

And not alot go on to be successful when they change positions in the NFL overall, some do but not many over all, here is just what one draft scout site says about him http://draftdatabase...n-cb-n-c-state/ they seem to not know if he is a safety or a Corner either, personally if the fact that 6'3" and 210lbs or whatever he is at this point is the only reason to put him at Free Safety then I would put him at Corner, at 6'3 he could match up with the tallest wide receivers in the league and the guy has great leaping ability. As for Jones, he is a great pass rusher, I like him but you dont pass up on the best Corner in the draft when there are more pass rushers then shutdown Corners coming out next year. I just showed Freeney and Mathises sack numbers and thats out of a ton of pass attempts, pass rushers have a smaller impact on the game compared to a Corner, just look at the number of sacks the Cowboys got and where they still ranked in passing yards given up.

Exactly.

[FightLikeSin]

And not alot go on to be successful when they change positions in the NFL overall, some do but not many over all, here is just what one draft scout site says about him http://draftdatabase...n-cb-n-c-state/ they seem to not know if he is a safety or a Corner either, personally if the fact that 6'3" and 210lbs or whatever he is at this point is the only reason to put him at Free Safety then I would put him at Corner, at 6'3 he could match up with the tallest wide receivers in the league and the guy has great leaping ability. As for Jones, he is a great pass rusher, I like him but you dont pass up on the best Corner in the draft when there are more pass rushers then shutdown Corners coming out next year. I just showed Freeney and Mathises sack numbers and thats out of a ton of pass attempts, pass rushers have a smaller impact on the game compared to a Corner, just look at the number of sacks the Cowboys got and where they still ranked in passing yards given up.

I don't really agree with that philosophy. For one, Amerson is not a shut down corner. If he is...he defies my definition of a "shut down" corner. I also like Rhodes a lot and don't think he's far away talent wise from Amerson. I say go with the best player available. I just got done watching Amerson highlights. Zone coverage 12/12 plays. That doesn't sit well with me personally. Jones is clearly the better choice for our scheme based on experience, production and level of competition.

[coltsguy510]

Amerson:

Rhodes:

[Gavin]

I don't really agree with that philosophy. For one, Amerson is not a shut down corner. If he is...he defies my definition of a "shut down" corner. I also like Rhodes a lot and don't think he's far away talent wise from Amerson. I say go with the best player available. I just got done watching Amerson highlights. Zone coverage 12/12 plays. That doesn't sit well with me personally. Jones is clearly the better choice for our scheme based on experience, production and level of competition.

You go ahead and take the Linebacker and his X number of sacks, I like Jones, we just have a difference of opinion, I just use stats to get mine across, I just think we can get a possible future stud at Corner in Amerson or Rhodes and then get a darn good pass rusher in the second, I will take Amerson in the 1st and Devin Taylor or Brandon Jenkins in the 2nd and kill two birds with one stone, Now of course if for some reason we really stink it up this year and land the first pick in the draft (I dont see that happening but its very possible all it would take in one maybe 2 injuries and it may not even take that) then all this would be a moot point and we can easily get both as it is we still may be able to

[coltsguy510]

I think that you are failing to see is that Corner is also very deep this year.

[Gavin]

I think that you are failing to see is that Corner is also very deep this year.

Not sure what you mean by very deep

[coltsguy510]

There are a lot of good corners, just like there are pass rushers.

[Gavin]

Yep Im just a Corner guy because what if that Linebacker doesnt get to the Quarterback? then you have below average Corners in our case (until proven otherwise) that get picked apart and like I said Pass Rushers dont make it to the Quarterback many times overall once you take into # of pass attempts in a season, we all have different players we like more, I just happen to believe that if we have a shot at Amerson or Rhodes then we should take it over Jones and get Devin Taylor or Brandon Jenkins in the 2nd

[coltsguy510]

We could get Jonathon Banks or Demarcus Milliner in the second.

[Gavin]

We could but but they arent 6'3" athletic with shutdown capabilities , not sure how I would like that if we did that, But my opinion is you want the best player at a position that will have the most impact and thats Corner

[coltsguy510]

Milliner is 6-1 with 4.3 speed and shutdown capabilities.

[Moncrief]

Yep Im just a Corner guy because what if that Linebacker doesnt get to the Quarterback? then you have below average Corners in our case (until proven otherwise) that get picked apart and like I said Pass Rushers dont make it to the Quarterback many times overall once you take into # of pass attempts in a season, we all have different players we like more, I just happen to believe that if we have a shot at Amerson or Rhodes then we should take it over Jones and get Devin Taylor or Brandon Jenkins in the 2nd

That would be quite the ideal draft.

1st: Amerson

2nd: Jenkins

3rd: Larry Warford

[Boiler_Colt]

I can argue for either. A good DB makes the secondary better, but a great pass rusher makes the secondary better as well. Usually, highly touted pass rushers are seen as more of a sure thing and their skills will translate quicker to the NFL level. Also there are generally more quality corners to be found in the draft than elite pass rushers. If we're on the clock and both are available it'll be a tough call, but that's why teams have draft boards.

[Moncrief]

A good CB to get in another year would be Quandre Diggs from Texas.

[coltsguy510]

A different ideal draft would be

1. Jones

2. Milliner

3. Jonathan Cooper

[Moncrief]

A different ideal draft would be

1. Jones

2. Milliner

3. Jonathan Cooper

That would be nice but Cooper is regarded as a late 1st - early 2nd but anything can happen in 9 months

[Gavin]

That would be quite the ideal draft.

1st: Amerson

2nd: Jenkins

3rd: Larry Warford

Thats my ideal draft scenario if we are in position to do that but anything can happen in this year

[coltsguy510]

That would be nice but Cooper is regarded as a late 1st - early 2nd but anything can happen in 9 months

Ok then Chance Warmack

[Gavin]

That's true for players that are already in the league. But it's the difference of playing in NCAA vs NFL. It's the same reason why a lot of college DE's go on to play at OLB or DT's go on to play at DE. Amerson doesn't play a lot of man to man, he lives in zone schemes which worries me. He's great at going after the ball and he's a good tackler. That doesn't sound like a corner to me. That sounds like a free safety. He's more Ed Reed than he is Darrelle Revis.

All I'm saying is, it's not hard to think someone would rather use him as a FS. For the scheme we're heading into, Xavier Rhodes looks like a much better pick in my opinion.

Also its not like Amerson played Safety in college, so I wouldnt expect Pagano would make him play it if we were to draft him, Defies logic really to play a guy at a new position when he excelled at another, you would still be stuck having to fill the position that he excelled in originally unless you have talent that can do the job at Corner already (which obviously we dont), in which case you wouldnt have to draft a Corner to begin with

[FightLikeSin]

You could make these same arguments for pass rushers in the first and corners in the second. It's all in value, which is in the eye of the beholder apparently, as opposed to universal.

[FightLikeSin]

Also its not like Amerson played Safety in college, so I wouldnt expect Pagano would make him play it if we were to draft him, Defies logic really to play a guy at a new position when he excelled at another, you would still be stuck having to fill the position that he excelled in originally unless you have talent that can do the job at Corner already (which obviously we dont), in which case you wouldnt have to draft a Corner to begin with

I would agree. Which is why I wouldn't draft him if there were other options available.

[Gavin]

I would agree. Which is why I wouldn't draft him if there were other options available.

So you wouldnt draft him because he cant play Safety?

[FightLikeSin]

So you wouldnt draft him because he cant play Safety?

No. I wouldn't draft him because he looks like a safety, not a cornerback. We don't need a safety (well we do, just not that early). We need a cornerback. He lives in zone coverage. If I'm running a man to man heavy defense and taking a CB in the first round, he better have a LOT of game tape showing me he can cover someone. And because like I said before, you can have the greatest CB's in the land, but if you don't have a front 7, your defense is useless.

All I've seen from Amerson is that he's pretty good at dropping back and jumping up to catch a pass. It's going to be slightly different when he's not playing Liberty or Louisville in the NFL.

Jones plays in a 3-4 in the toughest conference in college football and he has incredible stats doing it. If you are looking at what makes the most sense for the Colts, it has to be Jones over Amerson. I can't really see a case that would prove different unless Jerry Hughes comes in to be Suggs 2.0. If that happened, I'd trade down for Rhodes. I like him a lot better than Amerson.

[FightLikeSin]

But my opinion is you want the best player at a position that will have the most impact and thats Corner

If that were true, NC State should be a lot better than #59 in total defense allowing 25 points per game, especially considering their competition.

[Gavin]

Many factors go into allowing that many points a game NC State and Georgia had the same number of sacks per game 2.7 and only .8 less pass attempts per game, NC State couldnt run the ball they were 109th so North Carolina States defense was on the field more, looks like Man coverage there as well