How painful would it be for Indy to move to a 3-4?

[coltsblue1844]

I remember Bill Polian saying a big part of the reason he always preferred a 4-3, was that it was less expensive than a 3-4, as far as the players needed and the salary they would demand... and with our Offensive having so many big money guys, the less expensive 4-3 made sense, back then...

 

That said, since we have less holes for a 4-3 now, if it is still less expensive than the 3-4 roster would be, then again...it makes sense as a Dome team, to keep the 4-3, in my opinion.

[EastStreet]

10 minutes ago, Scott Pennock said:

It COULD be done with Buckner - Stewart - Dayo as the DT - NT - DE with Paye and Speed/Banogu as OLB's and Okereke and Leonard as MLB's. The problem I think we run into is depth. We would have to have an off-season where we picked up at least 4 linebackers and a DT and a DE for depth thru the FA/Draft/UDFA periods.

 

Good post. See my recent post about who I'd start and depth if you have a sec.

Overall, not really worried about depth. Not saying we wouldn't have to make changes or add, but it would be no worse than where we stand right now in our current scheme lol.. We need to pick up a DE and DT this year lol. So net net, not really different. 

 

You'd really put Speed at OLB? I forgot to consider him, but I think he'd do fine at ILB. Maybe even challenge Oke. 

10 minutes ago, Scott Pennock said:

That is a lot when we already 'think' they will address WR, TE, OL, DB and possibly QB at the same time.

Totally just my opinion, but I think they address WR, CB, and LT, and maybe S. Guessing no big change at TE unless Doyle retires, and that will be a mid level type FA or mid rounder. I don't think we make a change at QB. 

10 minutes ago, Scott Pennock said:

 

Having said that, Harris, if he is the front-runner then he played in a 4-3, he then proceeded to coach under a 4-3 in Chicago and under Gus Bradley (also a candidate) and under Jack Del Rio who both run a 4-3. 

 

If Harris is the young, former player who brings some ingenuity to his schemes then I am all for him being hired. Fresh blood sometimes is better than retreads (with tons of old game film that can be reviewed to find the chinks - so to speak)!

Harris scares me a bit. No DC experience. Only a lead position coach for a few years. The other years were assistant and QC. Just a very very short resume. It would lead me to believe that Ballard is totally puppet-ing the D.

[Superman]

I'm personally not worried about what you call the defensive front alignment. 

 

Side note: I don't think Leonard is a good fit if you're primarily going to go with a 3 man DL, because ILBs have to take on more blocks, and Leonard doesn't take on blocks. You'd have to allow him to freelance, and that comes with risks and rewards. 

 

But primarily, the bigger question for me is how do the DL handle gaps in the run game, and how do we generate pressure in the passing game? In the OP, Aaron Donald was mentioned. He's one of the greatest 1 gap linemen ever. The Rams have played a bunch of different fronts since he was drafted, but when McVay brought on Wade Philips, that meant putting one of the greatest 1 gap linemen together with one of the greatest 1 gap 3-4 defensive minds ever. It's kind of an outlier, because of the individual greatness of those two individuals.

 

Buckner can play multiple front positions, and multiple techniques, but he's most disruptive when he's 1 gapping. And in general, I much prefer a 1 gap front for disruption's sake. To me, it's one of the great weaknesses of Pagano's approach. They wanted 2 gap linemen, and prioritized traditional NT/5T play with edge setters, rather than shooting their linemen upfield through gaps. More conservative and principled, but also easier to scheme against. 

 

You can play multiple coverages also. It's not true that you have to be primarily man in a so-called 3-4. Dick Lebeau's 3-4 innovated zone blitzing. 

 

So it's really just about how many down linemen you have in base, how you gap, how you rush, and what your ILBs do in the run game. I guess you also need some versatile edge guys, but a good Sam isn't that hard to find IMO, and they aren't that expensive either. 

 

It's just kind of a moot discussion to me. Other than the fact that Leonard isn't a great fit in a 3-4, I don't have strong feelings one way or the other. I'm more concerned with the principles of the defense than I am with what they call the front alignment. And I think any failures of our defense right now, and any failures of the defense in the Pagano era, were about defensive principles and execution, not defensive alignment. 

[EastStreet]

9 minutes ago, John Hammonds said:

I think you are correct about the corners.  Rock Ya-Sin is a zone corner, and would not play well in press.  Isaiah Rodgers is built for speed, and still has some growing to do.  Could he play press?  Dunno.  I think we would have to bring in true press corners in order to play the new scheme.  Nickel is nickel, and Kenny Moore is great, regardless of scheme.  But we would have to fully replace the outside guys.

RYS came from a heavy man system in college. We converted him to zone..

And... He graded better in man this year than zone.

Overall, he graded top 3rd of CBs (up from bottom 3rd in an injury filled year in 2020), so I'm guessing his man grades are top 10-15%..

 

There is an article (SI I think) that talks about his improvement this year. They credit Rowe a lot for the improvement, especially in man. 

 

Rodgers has been fine in man too this year. Most scouts thought he'd need to covert to a nickel/dime, but he graded well outside. He played outside in college, and the only bags on him were his size (reason he needed to move to NB/Dime), and his turn. He's worked on his turn, so it's not been an issue. Even with the early turn issues, his speed was enough to rebound. 

 

Overall, 3-4s play more zone than they used to. Could be wrong, but most bases are C3. They only go C1 on 3rd. Heck, Rams were a C4/quarters base, and used Ramsey all over the place including nickel. 

[EastStreet]

14 minutes ago, Superman said:

I'm personally not worried about what you call the defensive front alignment. 

 

Side note: I don't think Leonard is a good fit if you're primarily going to go with a 3 man DL, because ILBs have to take on more blocks, and Leonard doesn't take on blocks. You'd have to allow him to freelance, and that comes with risks and rewards. 

Good post Sup

 

On the bolded. Depends on what type of 3-4 they run. 

If they took Qs from Fairbanks-Bullough, Leonard becomes the MIKE, and you use Oke as the TED. 

 

If you don't go F-B, I think he'd be more than fine. He was specifically called out this year for having the best run-D grade in the NFL, and they touted him as having elite shed ability. Not this season, but last, I recall him shedding an OG or OC like a rag doll. 

 

14 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

But primarily, the bigger question for me is how do the DL handle gaps in the run game, and how do we generate pressure in the passing game? In the OP, Aaron Donald was mentioned. He's one of the greatest 1 gap linemen ever. The Rams have played a bunch of different fronts since he was drafted, but when McVay brought on Wade Philips, that meant putting one of the greatest 1 gap linemen together with one of the greatest 1 gap 3-4 defensive minds ever. It's kind of an outlier, because of the individual greatness of those two individuals.

 

Buckner can play multiple front positions, and multiple techniques, but he's most disruptive when he's 1 gapping. And in general, I much prefer a 1 gap front for disruption's sake. To me, it's one of the great weaknesses of Pagano's approach. They wanted 2 gap linemen, and prioritized traditional NT/5T play with edge setters, rather than shooting their linemen upfield through gaps. More conservative and principled, but also easier to scheme against. 

Just in general, I'd suggest reading the PFF article I linked. It talked about 2 gapping as a dying element in 3-4s. I think you'll like and agree. I also prefer 1 gapping.

 

14 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

You can play multiple coverages also. It's not true that you have to be primarily man in a so-called 3-4. Dick Lebeau's 3-4 innovated zone blitzing. 

Yup. I mentioned this in another post. I think a lot of folks simply see 3-4 as a two gapping + man heavy scheme. It's just not like that anymore. I mentioned in another reply the Ram's going base out of C4 and using Ramsey in nickel. 

14 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

So it's really just about how many down linemen you have in base, how you gap, how you rush, and what your ILBs do in the run game. I guess you also need some versatile edge guys, but a good Sam isn't that hard to find IMO, and they aren't that expensive either. 

Agreed. When we drafted Banogu, I scratched my head and wondered if we might start running a hybrid, using Banogu in a 3-4 or 3-3-5

14 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

It's just kind of a moot discussion to me. Other than the fact that Leonard isn't a great fit in a 3-4, I don't have strong feelings one way or the other. I'm more concerned with the principles of the defense than I am with what they call the front alignment. And I think any failures of our defense right now, and any failures of the defense in the Pagano era, were about defensive principles and execution, not defensive alignment. 

 

Like I mentioned above, MIKE/TED would solve that, if that's your primary concern. If you're not familiar with the F-B stuff, think NE's 3-4

[Superman]

13 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

If you don't go F-B, I think he'd be more than fine. He was specifically called out this year for having the best run-D grade in the NFL, and they touted him as having elite shed ability. Not this season, but last, I recall him shedding an OG or OC like a rag doll. 

 

 

Gonna check out more of the F-B stuff.

 

Just to zero in on this though, when you aren't covering up an OL with a DL, and giving the blockers greater freedom to go get the backers, the responsibilities change. Leonard is capable of doing a lot of things one on one because of his talent and traits, but he's not going head up with interior OL as often as he would in a different front. He would probably still make his share of plays, but I also think he'd be physically outmatched, and he'd be out of position regularly. It's not something I'd be eager to see.

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Gonna check out more of the F-B stuff.

 

Just to zero in on this though, when you aren't covering up an OL with a DL, and giving the blockers greater freedom to go get the backers, the responsibilities change. Leonard is capable of doing a lot of things one on one because of his talent and traits, but he's not going head up with interior OL as often as he would in a different front. He would probably still make his share of plays, but I also think he'd be physically outmatched, and he'd be out of position regularly. It's not something I'd be eager to see.

 

 

I agree to an extent. But like I said, just really depends on how you deploy it. 

If you're using the MIKE/TED model (in general, or just specific downs), Oke is sent to occupy the free OL, and Leonard is free lancing. 

OR

If early run downs, we 1 gap (lets say simple slant)  and send the Power-OLB, we're more or less looking a lot like a 4-3 anyway. Same goes for passing downs if we're in Nickel. We start as 3-3-5, send the Speed-OLB, and end up looking like the 4-2-5 we play mostly now. 

 

In general, just more flexibility/wrinkles, but a lot of the same output once the play starts. 

[Superman]

14 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

If you're using the MIKE/TED model (in general, or just specific downs), Oke is sent to occupy the free OL, and Leonard is free lancing. 

 

That's probably it right there. Or like you said, slant, etc. on early downs, and it's no significant difference in practice.

 

On passing downs, people get all excited about moving your best pass rusher to the weak side, but you can do that in any front, and probably should. 

 

It's just not a big deal what you call your front. Like you said, the 2 gapping has been exposed and is going away, so even having a front of three 290-330 pound DL isn't something teams are using unless they're in goal line. The name of the game is disruption, and that comes from 1 gapping, and from having good 1 gap linemen. 

 

If Pagano had run the Wade Philips scheme, that early defense might have looked a lot differently up front. Even Freeney would have looked better, maybe we don't draft Werner, maybe we don't trade Hughes (not sure on that one, he seemed to have a problem with management), etc. Even the Rex Ryan scheme was more flexible and deployed linemen more aggressively. I thought we were headed that direction when they drafted Henry Anderson and David Parry, two guys who were more capable of getting upfield, but Anderson got hurt and we used Parry as an undersized 2 gap NT. 

[jbaron04]

Very 

[EastStreet]

32 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

That's probably it right there. Or like you said, slant, etc. on early downs, and it's no significant difference in practice.

 

On passing downs, people get all excited about moving your best pass rusher to the weak side, but you can do that in any front, and probably should. 

 

It's just not a big deal what you call your front. Like you said, the 2 gapping has been exposed and is going away, so even having a front of three 290-330 pound DL isn't something teams are using unless they're in goal line. The name of the game is disruption, and that comes from 1 gapping, and from having good 1 gap linemen. 

 

If Pagano had run the Wade Philips scheme, that early defense might have looked a lot differently up front. Even Freeney would have looked better, maybe we don't draft Werner, maybe we don't trade Hughes (not sure on that one, he seemed to have a problem with management), etc. Even the Rex Ryan scheme was more flexible and deployed linemen more aggressively. I thought we were headed that direction when they drafted Henry Anderson and David Parry, two guys who were more capable of getting upfield, but Anderson got hurt and we used Parry as an undersized 2 gap NT. 

Yup, yup, and yup.

 

Overall, 3-4s now are just really different from old 3-4s. And there's a lot of variation amongst today's 3-4s. 

 

Vita Vea is probably the only good "big" 3-4 NT these days, and I think he even 1 gaps most times. I know Bowles will double stuff the A-gap a lot (they did to us lol)... Bowels does go big on the DL but he uses speed very well to get disruption. 

 

Honestly don't care what we do. I just hope whoever comes in figures out how to get more pressures and sacks. Not sure I can stomach another season of giving QBs time to grow old, while our secondary gets sliced and diced. 

 

 

[Superman]

10 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Vita Vea is probably the only good "big" 3-4 NT these days, and I think he even 1 gaps most times. I know Bowles will double stuff the A-gap a lot (they did to us lol)... Bowels does go big on the DL but he uses speed very well to get disruption. 

 

When you have Vea, Nunez-Roches and Suh, things kind of work themselves out.

[EastStreet]

10 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

When you have Vea, Nunez-Roches and Suh, things kind of work themselves out.