I hope Grigson brings in some "PUNISHERS"

[Jaric]

I'm convinced that it's scheme and execution. There's always a ton of missed tackles, poor gap integrity, and yards after contact. They aren't even a power run team until it's time to play us.

The coaches need to figure it out, because I don't think it's all personnel.

It's maddening is what it is.

[Superman]

I agree 100%...great point on building a solid foundation...that makes good sense....so now....we have the foundation....its time to bring in a difference maker?? lol Its a long shot I know I know...and you know I'm not the guy that throws out crazy propositions..just be nice to spend money that we are giving away for mediocre talent at a couple positions to upgrade us at a position....thinking the drop off from a RJF type player that we wouldn't be able to sign to another backup would be worth it. I mean we've seen capable guys pulled from scrap heaps before (Dallas dline for one) and played admirably. I'm ok with replacing other role players if it means getting a difference maker. There really isn't a lot out there in FA that appeals to me....but Suh is one of those guys that is worth the money imo. He has been the anchor on that line for the last several years and guys have come and gone all around him and he has been that constant...and he has elevated that line imo. 

 

As far as the line goes...Luck can account for RT imo. No I don't want a turnstyle over there but if a guy gets beat occassionally it doesn't bother me so much. If they can help run block and just be decent I'm ok. Much more interested in stopping pressure up the middle in Lucks face. If Andrew can step up he is fine....he gets in trouble when he can't. Let him slide up into the pocket and avoid the outside rush. Run game and pressure up the middle is more important in my eyes....and actually was it Ritz that did ok at RT at the end? Fix center and right guard....let Mewhort and Consanzo hold down the left. If Cherilus is done bring in some competition at RT....I just would like to see us be able to run the ball a bit and keep pressure out of Lucks face.....he can account for the edge rush...you come too hard he will slide up and through and gash you. You made a really good point in what Grigson has done in building a foundation...and I'm not a have to win now guy but I think we are a few players away and I'm not the guy that says play it safe and see if Luck can carry us to a SB.....sure Peyton did that to a couple but I'm all right taking your shots...if it doesn't work rebuild around your core. For a "monster" we just seem a little soft...and we lack leadership on defense imo. We could really use some fire out there.

 

Here's my thing on Suh. If you miss on him, the reverberation is even greater than missing on Werner and Richardson. If he gets hurt, if he slacks off and only gives you 75% of what you thought you'd get (which is typical for big money free agents), etc., you've now sunk a TON of money into him, and you've gotten rid of some of those lesser quality but serviceable guys. I'm all for upgrading on guys like RJF, Walden, DJackson, etc. But I also think it's smart to spread out the risk.

 

As for the line, I think the pressure up the middle was due to lots of blitzing that wasn't picked up by Shipley or Harrison (go back and watch the Eagles game; Shipley didn't identify or pick up a single A gap blitz all game), and sloppy play at RG from Thornton. I'm of the opinion that being able to run effectively is much more critical than putting more resources into protecting the interior. I think we have plenty of competition at RG already, and improving at RT will allow the interior guys to help more toward the middle. 

[Superman]

It's maddening is what it is.

 

Sure is.

 

I just don't think that emotion justifies the overreaction that leads to the "WE CAN'T STOP THE RUN, WE HAVE TO BRING IN RUN STOPPERS!" angle. I understand that reaction, I just don't agree with it. 

[Superman]

Good post, which I'd like to expand on.....

 

I think it's more than just Werner/Trent not working out in back-to-back years,  although they are clearly the most high profile misses.

 

But in that 2013 draft,  the Colts have yet to get almost any return on our investment.

 

Thornton -- can't seem to stay healthy,  doesn't play that great when he plays.

Holmes -- can't seem to stay out of the trainers room,  so he hasn't played all that much.

Hughes -- situational player who doesn't seem to have much of an impact.

Boyett -- drank himself out of town before his career even started.

Williams -- didn't make the team and now he had a nice game running for Arizona.

 

That whole class may not be One Big Whiff,  but some of these guys need to step up their game now that they're going into their 3rd year.    There's still time for some of these guys to turn into what we hope they will.   But the clock is ticking....

 

I'm higher on Hughes than most. He has flashes that make me think he can be a really solid player. 

 

Thornton was raw coming out, but has a ton of ability. Needs a lot of coaching. We'll see. 

 

Holmes, I think, had to answer the challenge to man up. We'll see what the staff thinks of him going forward.

 

Overall, yeah, the 2013 draft hasn't produced a lot of return. Mostly trench players that take some time to develop, and their development seems stunted. 

[dgambill]

Here's my thing on Suh. If you miss on him, the reverberation is even greater than missing on Werner and Richardson. If he gets hurt, if he slacks off and only gives you 75% of what you thought you'd get (which is typical for big money free agents), etc., you've now sunk a TON of money into him, and you've gotten rid of some of those lesser quality but serviceable guys. I'm all for upgrading on guys like RJF, Walden, DJackson, etc. But I also think it's smart to spread out the risk.

 

As for the line, I think the pressure up the middle was due to lots of blitzing that wasn't picked up by Shipley or Harrison (go back and watch the Eagles game; Shipley didn't identify or pick up a single A gap blitz all game), and sloppy play at RG from Thornton. I'm of the opinion that being able to run effectively is much more critical than putting more resources into protecting the interior. I think we have plenty of competition at RG already, and improving at RT will allow the interior guys to help more toward the middle. 

Barring injury or more likely suspension I don't think Suh is a player that can miss. He plays with such passion....and intensity. Honestly the guy seems like the type that would walk by a park and jump in and play. He cares about the game, his team, and his game too much imo to slack off. IMO he is a guy that wants to play at a high level and won't slack off because he got paid. Guy that gets paid to practice and plays on Sunday for the fun of it....and to hurt people lol.

[Superman]

Barring injury or more likely suspension I don't think Suh is a player that can miss. He plays with such passion....and intensity. Honestly the guy seems like the type that would walk by a park and jump in and play. He cares about the game, his team, and his game too much imo to slack off. IMO he is a guy that wants to play at a high level and won't slack off because he got paid. Guy that gets paid to practice and plays on Sunday for the fun of it....and to hurt people lol.

 

A suspension is more likely to be a one game thing, which isn't that big of a deal. He's not in the drug or PED program, that we know of, so it's not like he's going to suddenly miss 4+ games with a suspension. He's also only missed two games in his career, so it's not like he has a troubling injury history. But if he did get hurt -- knock on wood -- you're up the creek.

 

Also, aside from his dirty play, he is reportedly a stand-up guy. Some have compared him to Haynesworth, and I don't think that's a good comparison at all. Like you said, he always plays hard, and that goes back as far as anyone can know.

 

Still, historically speaking, you pay a little extra for a free agent (and if that's a 10% premium, that's A LOT for a guy we're already talking about getting $15m/eyar), and you get a little less. That's just the way it goes, particularly for guys who switch teams. The historical exceptions prove the rule, especially once you start looking at 2-3 year overall production. People complain about RJF being overpaid at $5.5m/year; imagine if we had Suh at $15m/year, and he only put up 5.5 sacks (like he did in 2013). 

 

He's close to a lock, I'll admit that. 

[dgambill]

A suspension is more likely to be a one game thing, which isn't that big of a deal. He's not in the drug or PED program, that we know of, so it's not like he's going to suddenly miss 4+ games with a suspension. He's also only missed two games in his career, so it's not like he has a troubling injury history. But if he did get hurt -- knock on wood -- you're up the creek.

 

Also, aside from his dirty play, he is reportedly a stand-up guy. Some have compared him to Haynesworth, and I don't think that's a good comparison at all. Like you said, he always plays hard, and that goes back as far as anyone can know.

 

Still, historically speaking, you pay a little extra for a free agent (and if that's a 10% premium, that's A LOT for a guy we're already talking about getting $15m/eyar), and you get a little less. That's just the way it goes, particularly for guys who switch teams. The historical exceptions prove the rule, especially once you start looking at 2-3 year overall production. People complain about RJF being overpaid at $5.5m/year; imagine if we had Suh at $15m/year, and he only put up 5.5 sacks (like he did in 2013). 

 

He's close to a lock, I'll admit that. 

Its possible he wouldn't put up huge numbers...but he usually takes on doubles and forces the offense to scheme around. That makes everyone elses jobs easier and should raise their game too. Granted I don't want to spend above the 15 million a year for the guy and I understand that is what he is likely to get that but if there aren't better options for us on the market...I wouldn't begrudge us for taking a swing. I understand why Grigson took a swing on Trent....but that said an unproven RB was a much bigger risk. I know the risk is high...but the reward I think is just as high with the guy. I'm not going to be upset either way...but this team doesn't need a lot of smaller pieces in FA that won't upgrade us above what we already have. So imo its time to pony up to the table on some players. Another RJF in FA isn't going to help this team get better. It is going to take a quality player of Suh or Ngata etc to make a marked improvement. We are going to have to overpay somewhat....but more rotational type guys isn't going to get us to the SB imo. We have the cap space...I know we have a few guys in the future to pay but outside Luck none are going to break the bank. Put your big boy britches on Grigson and negotiate ourselves a star or two. Elway and Belicheck did it....we can build the contributors etc in the draft. I'm not mad and I understand but there comes a time when you need some results....we are getting max production out of a lot of avg guys if you ask me....and if they have more talent well the coaches aren't getting it out of them. I don't care how we get these difference makers (id prefer the draft) but a couple players could make the difference next january.

[Jaric]

Sure is.

 

I just don't think that emotion justifies the overreaction that leads to the "WE CAN'T STOP THE RUN, WE HAVE TO BRING IN RUN STOPPERS!" angle. I understand that reaction, I just don't agree with it.

I don't know if its personnel but we do have to figure it out. Otherwise New England will continue to just bludgeon us until we prove we can stop them.

[thecorn4]

Suh, I'm sure would be an awesome signing.  There are just to many areas that we could upgrade for same amount of money we would pay for one man.  By chance, if he were to underperform or get injured, it would put us in a similar situation we are in now due to Mathis getting hurt.  With Mathis we were so dependent on him as a pass rusher, when he went down, the pass rush suffered.  To the point of being nonexistent.  You give Suh all the money, and the quality around him suffers due to lack of money, we would be so dependent on him, I believe there would be no difference in what we have now as a defense.

 

Look at signing Dan Williams to upgrade the nose tackle position.  Letting Chapman and or Kerr rotate in and get experience.  I like Jared Odrick as a replacement for Redding(retirement) gets after the passer but stuffs the run.  Then maybe look at the LB position or safety.  Surely we wouldn't strike out on two/three free agents?  We upgraded the defense as a whole, not just one position.

[Superman]

Its possible he wouldn't put up huge numbers...but he usually takes on doubles and forces the offense to scheme around. That makes everyone elses jobs easier and should raise their game too. Granted I don't want to spend above the 15 million a year for the guy and I understand that is what he is likely to get that but if there aren't better options for us on the market...I wouldn't begrudge us for taking a swing. I understand why Grigson took a swing on Trent....but that said an unproven RB was a much bigger risk. I know the risk is high...but the reward I think is just as high with the guy. I'm not going to be upset either way...but this team doesn't need a lot of smaller pieces in FA that won't upgrade us above what we already have. So imo its time to pony up to the table on some players. Another RJF in FA isn't going to help this team get better. It is going to take a quality player of Suh or Ngata etc to make a marked improvement. We are going to have to overpay somewhat....but more rotational type guys isn't going to get us to the SB imo. We have the cap space...I know we have a few guys in the future to pay but outside Luck none are going to break the bank. Put your big boy britches on Grigson and negotiate ourselves a star or two. Elway and Belicheck did it....we can build the contributors etc in the draft. I'm not mad and I understand but there comes a time when you need some results....we are getting max production out of a lot of avg guys if you ask me....and if they have more talent well the coaches aren't getting it out of them. I don't care how we get these difference makers (id prefer the draft) but a couple players could make the difference next january.

 

I agree, we need better playmakers. The Broncos/Patriots approach can work. But there's a big difference between $5.5m/year for RJF and $15m/year for Suh. 

 

There's Stephen Paea, Nick Fairley, Damon Harrison, Jared Odrick... Ngata, if he's released... That's just DL. There are other players at other positions that would potentially be difference makers, and would be above the $5-7m/year range that Grigson has traditionally topped out at, but well below the $15m/year that we're talking about with Suh.

 

And all the guys that the Broncos and Patriots have signed recently have been below $15m/year. Revis is technically $12m/year, but his cap hit in 2014 was only $7m, and the other $5m is deferred to 2015. Talib was $9m/year. Ware was $10m/year. 

 

I'd rather talk about a couple of those guys, than $15m/year (or more) for Suh.

[dgambill]

I agree, we need better playmakers. The Broncos/Patriots approach can work. But there's a big difference between $5.5m/year for RJF and $15m/year for Suh. 

 

There's Stephen Paea, Nick Fairley, Damon Harrison, Jared Odrick... Ngata, if he's released... That's just DL. There are other players at other positions that would potentially be difference makers, and would be above the $5-7m/year range that Grigson has traditionally topped out at, but well below the $15m/year that we're talking about with Suh.

 

And all the guys that the Broncos and Patriots have signed recently have been below $15m/year. Revis is technically $12m/year, but his cap hit in 2014 was only $7m, and the other $5m is deferred to 2015. Talib was $9m/year. Ware was $10m/year. 

 

I'd rather talk about a couple of those guys, than $15m/year (or more) for Suh.

Agree 100%....and I think they overpaid for Ware...he really fell off in the second half. That said a guy like Revis etc that you elevates your whole defense and can scheme with is worth it. Not saying Suh is but I agree we need a guy like you listed at that position and maybe another if we are going to get over that hump.

 

I mentioned JPP in a thread in the in FA forum. What are your thoughts on the guy?

[Superman]

Agree 100%....and I think they overpaid for Ware...he really fell off in the second half. That said a guy like Revis etc that you elevates your whole defense and can scheme with is worth it. Not saying Suh is but I agree we need a guy like you listed at that position and maybe another if we are going to get over that hump.

 

I mentioned JPP in a thread in the in FA forum. What are your thoughts on the guy?

 

Depends on his price tag, but I'd definitely take JPP. He can play Rush and DT/DE in passing situations. 

[bluephantom87]

I'm all for whoever they bring in as long as they are PLAYMAKERS that PRODUCE and bring some NASTINESS to the field of play. Like I stated earlier in order to BUILD a monster you MUST HAVE SOME MONSTERS!!!!!

[UKColt13]

I'd take Bernard Pollard in a heartbeat. He's a good player who hits hard and intimidates people over the middle.

 

I don't want Suh. He's a headcase that will want way more than I'm willing to pay.

[bluephantom87]

With the release of Landry it could be possible and I don't think you would have to spend a lot to get Pollard who would definitely bring some FEAR FACTOR with him. The dominoes are starting to fall let's hope Grigs is ready to get rid of some more dead weight to make room for some real DIFFERENCE MAKERS!!

[Arby0359]

This has been one of the best threads. enjoyed reading it .I love different strategies.  Kinda like a good Game of Chess.... I personally think Suh is not the way to g but it wouldn't * me off either.....