Peyton Speaks To Media/says Healing Is Slow Going. (Merge)

[Zebra3]

I have repeatedly said a good hard fusion that is needed for a football player takes 6 months, I have said this from day 1 of all this, then said nerve must regenerate and just because fusion takes place it doesn't have to, if & once regenerated it supplies nerve nutrition to the triceps and strength can be gained but to what degree is anyone's guess if at all

I am Not a pessimist, I am an Optimist but also a realist

Agreed. My wife has had two spinal fusion operations, one to correct the other which failed due to medical irresponsibility during recovery (long story). There is no way that Peyton puts on a uniform this season. If the fusion hasn't yet taken there's simply no question at all of him playing in December that would be monumentally irresponsible. The compressed nerve takes time to recover, but that fusion has to take and fully harden before that nerve will really be able to heal.

There is no way we see Peyton on the field this year. By February they will know if the fusion will work, and whether the nerve is recovering. That's when Peyton will be able to make an informed decision about his future along with the Colts. People getting all upset because he mentioned talking in February need to understand that Feb is far enough along in the recovery process to really be able to tell how things are going, and how they are likely to progress. Speculating now is pointless.

[nsurg]

I am not surprised that he is not yet fused at this point--would be pretty rare, in my experience. Though he did have the graft from his iliac crest, which could hurry things along for fusion, the earliest I see patients with donor bone fuse "good enough" is 3 months. Football impacts generally require a robust fusion, and even with iliac crest graft it takes a long time for robust fusion. I think the optimism was simply that his MD would have said it's "possible" that it would fuse well by now. But unlikely.

The most discouraging thing about the links to manning's comments were this phrase: "I still have some of the same issues I had before the fusion as far as the nerves and the regeneration. Still dealing with that, the idea being that this surgery gave me the most stability for the nerves to regenerate. That’s still a process there."

The sad truth sounds like he did not have enough recovery of C7 for his triceps strength with the original surgery, and the rumor from the indianapolis neurosurgeons I know is that he had some degree of instability (although they don't know for sure either, which is why they are allowed to talk about it)! How much instability I don't know, but I think the idea for fusing him was that his neck pain would get better and perhaps the nerve would have a better chance to heal.

My experience has been that after 4-8 weeks out, a patient is either experiencing some recovery or not with strength. Whatever pace is taking place tends to continue, slowly, and then plateau. After that, it's done. To see no recovery at all after 1-2 months is very discouraging and may tend to predict no recovery in the future.

To read manning's quotes, he says not a single thing about improving arm strength. Instead he says he still has some of the same nerve recovery issues as before the fusion.

Sorry, but this is discouraging to me.

I think it's very difficult to predict a recovery on a patient that I know everything about and get to examine and test, so trying to glean information from press-level interviews alone is likely very inaccurate. Still, there's not much hope referenced in those interviews.

Sigh.

[Cain Marko]

Not sure about the rest of you but I'm really starting to get nervous.

[Susie Q]

Thanks Nsurg for your input on the interview. I for one appreciate it from a medical standpoint. I guess all we can do is hope for the best for Peyton.

[pacolts56]

I am not surprised that he is not yet fused at this point--would be pretty rare, in my experience. Though he did have the graft from his iliac crest, which could hurry things along for fusion, the earliest I see patients with donor bone fuse "good enough" is 3 months. Football impacts generally require a robust fusion, and even with iliac crest graft it takes a long time for robust fusion. I think the optimism was simply that his MD would have said it's "possible" that it would fuse well by now. But unlikely.

The most discouraging thing about the links to manning's comments were this phrase: "I still have some of the same issues I had before the fusion as far as the nerves and the regeneration. Still dealing with that, the idea being that this surgery gave me the most stability for the nerves to regenerate. That’s still a process there."

The sad truth sounds like he did not have enough recovery of C7 for his triceps strength with the original surgery, and the rumor from the indianapolis neurosurgeons I know is that he had some degree of instability (although they don't know for sure either, which is why they are allowed to talk about it)! How much instability I don't know, but I think the idea for fusing him was that his neck pain would get better and perhaps the nerve would have a better chance to heal.

My experience has been that after 4-8 weeks out, a patient is either experiencing some recovery or not with strength. Whatever pace is taking place tends to continue, slowly, and then plateau. After that, it's done. To see no recovery at all after 1-2 months is very discouraging and may tend to predict no recovery in the future.

To read manning's quotes, he says not a single thing about improving arm strength. Instead he says he still has some of the same nerve recovery issues as before the fusion.

Sorry, but this is discouraging to me.

I think it's very difficult to predict a recovery on a patient that I know everything about and get to examine and test, so trying to glean information from press-level interviews alone is likely very inaccurate. Still, there's not much hope referenced in those interviews.

Sigh.

As discouraging as you're post sounds, Doc....alot of us appreciate you at least explaining in understandable terms how the healing process for this surgery happens.

Hopefully his recovery hasn't hit that "plateau" that you spoke of and there is a spurt of healing still to come.

In any event....thanks for lending your experience to the discussion.

[WoolMagnet]

I think there's more to be taken from what we're NOT hearing than from what we are hearing.

There just seems to be more to this than just recovering like with other types of injuries.

During (or before) training camp i was convinced he wouldn't be playing for weeks after the season started. You know, when some were convinced he'd be ready to go for game #1. It really reminded me of the year Marvin harrisson "would be ready next week" for about half the season and then never played again. The writing was there, tho being masked by much optimism. Now, I'm very optimistic when it makes sense and there is some hope. However, from the start, way before training camp, this whole thing just didn't "feel" right.

At this point, my gut is leaning more toward we saw the last of manning. I'm hopeful this isn't the case, but everything I see , hear, and "don't hear" tell me different.

At this point, unless something changes, I would want the Luck pick if we have the chance and the team feels he'll be as good as everyone else thinks. Yea, sure there are other QBs available but then why did we take Manning at #1 when then we also could have traded that pick and got a "king's ransom"? Its because you don't pass on a guy that "most" think is a "one in 10 or 20" year QB. If we get the chance and do take Luck, we still have options, maybe MORE options. Teams that wouldn't trade up would now be in the bidding, we could trade Luck, we could sit him behind manning, or , heaven forbid, even trade manning (not my choice from emotional standpoint). People laughed at what Irsay told a friend of mine on the golf course MONTHS ago. Its not looking so far-fetched now.

The point is, you don't pass on a guy that you think is a franchise guy that can set you up for years. Manning is the PERFECT example. Heck, Luck is coming out more highly touted than I remember manning was.

And you can't compare ANY other position to QB when you are talking franchise guy, or especially 1st overall pick. The QB just has TOO MUCH bearing on the WHOLE team. Once again, Manning is the perfect example of this.

I just don't see this working out well with manning. Hope I'm wrong, but the obvious choice if you aren't 100% sure Manning will be "back to normal" is to take Luck if you have the chance. If we don't, I feel this year will look like a picnic compared to what we could be enduring for the next 10 years, 20 years, or even more. The good times of the last 10 years has seemed to cloud the memories of the previous 20 or more. Remember THOSE years?

Edited November 4, 2011 by WoolMagnet

[doogansquest]

Everyone is overreacting for the sake of saying they may have guessed right, or to bring Andrew Luck into the conversation (yet again).

Do you know what this report told us? Nothing different. Not one thing different.

@WoolMagnet: Leaf was more highly touted as NFL ready, better athleticism, stronger arm, pocket presence, etc., and even outplayed Manning in the pre-season. Being touted in college means jack squat. Andrew Luck doesn't set us up for anything expect as an expensive bench-warmer with a crappy team around Peyton.

Edited November 4, 2011 by doogansquest

[thetigerfox]

Bummer thread of the week.lol

[nsurg]

Do you know what this report told us? Nothing different. Not one thing different.

That's the point: no improvement noted. This is the first report we've seen in weeks since his surgery indicating no significant strength recovery, so it is extremely important news. Time is the key here, and time has now gone by, and there is no implication that things are different for the better with his arm strength.

I'll acknowledge that the report can be questioned and is a bit vague, but wouldn't manning be a bit more positive if he is seeing strength improvement each week? His failure to mention this is concerning.

The critical point then, is that if manning doesn't return to form, we need a qb as priority number one. If he does, then we're lucky and he'll play a few more years. The latter scenario implies building the team for a run at a sb for several years at best, which still may be futile, in which case having a future franchise qb is valid.

Denial doesn't change anything, and if you don't care to hear about the benefits of drafting Luck then go ahead and avoid the forum and every bit of press regarding the colts. It's not exactly easy to pick a sure-fire defender or OL player, as a counter-argument; Suh isn't in each year's draft, and even mario williams hasn't exactly turned around the texans.

[John Waylon]

That's the point: no improvement noted. This is the first report we've seen in weeks since his surgery indicating no significant strength recovery, so it is extremely important news. Time is the key here, and time has now gone by, and there is no implication that things are different for the better with his arm strength.

I'll acknowledge that the report can be questioned and is a bit vague, but wouldn't manning be a bit more positive if he is seeing strength improvement each week? His failure to mention this is concerning.

The critical point then, is that if manning doesn't return to form, we need a qb as priority number one. If he does, then we're lucky and he'll play a few more years. The latter scenario implies building the team for a run at a sb for several years at best, which still may be futile, in which case having a future franchise qb is valid.

Denial doesn't change anything, and if you don't care to hear about the benefits of drafting Luck then go ahead and avoid the forum and every bit of press regarding the colts. It's not exactly easy to pick a sure-fire defender or OL player, as a counter-argument; Suh isn't in each year's draft, and even mario williams hasn't exactly turned around the texans.

Eh, you're not smarter than doogan. No one is, in fact. He shows up in every thread to make that a point. Arguing logic, and common sense doesn't matter, you're wrong, and that's the only thing that matters.

Edited November 4, 2011 by John Waylon

[The Fish]

btw.. on top of all of this, 0-16 ruins teams. http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/dish/201111/nfls-worst-owner-over-last-five-years

[presto123]

Um....excuse me if I trust nsurg's instincts over all of you that don't even play a Doctor on TV. This latest update told us plenty but I am still grasping at that small glimmer of hope. We will know soon enough if the new era of Colts football has officially begun.

[GoGoColts]

our defense gets beaten like a dusty rug

In other words, status quo.

[John Dee]

Kind of good news. I don't want him forcing the issue. We're done for the season. Let's take our 0-16 record (or whatever) and ride into the sunset.

actually this is bad news, a nerve that is "healthy" will generally come back very quickly. Manning has got some serious nerve damage going on. The longer he does not practice the more we must realize the reality of a "Manningless Colt team"

[John Dee]

Not sure about the rest of you but I'm really starting to get nervous.

Any of us who have dealt with "nerve" issues before know exactly hat is going on. Nerve damage does not have a time table. and for a Pro Athlete? If Peyton has done just a little bit of "permanent" damage to his nerves in his throwing arm ... he is done.

The longer this drags out the more I know he will never play again... and in all reality... He shouldn't either. He has nothing left to prove. And he still has his health.

[GoGoColts]

The second video on that page is encouraging. Polian was very frank about restructuring the team to win without a transcendent QB. Bill has slacked the last few years. I wonder if he will kick himself into gear, make tons of moves, and get this team into a position to win with anyone under center, but more importantly win Super Bowls with Peyton if he can come back.

[ponys]

Peyton would be stupid to get back on the field with a fused disk and nerve damage.

A lot of this talk about him coming back is pure fan hope because he would if healthy provide

our team with one of the best QB's ever but also cover-up a lot of the coaching problems we have.

I would like to see more posts about the team moving on without him as the QB unless he wants to coach the QB.

[Cain Marko]

Any of us who have dealt with "nerve" issues before know exactly hat is going on. Nerve damage does not have a time table. and for a Pro Athlete? If Peyton has done just a little bit of "permanent" damage to his nerves in his throwing arm ... he is done.

The longer this drags out the more I know he will never play again... and in all reality... He shouldn't either. He has nothing left to prove. And he still has his health.

I broke a finger pretty good in 2004 playing football. Had surgery on it 6 weeks later and the finger was numb for about 3-3.5 years. I'm not surprised Manning is having issues with nerve regeneration and neither should anyone else. No way he comes back this year and I believe 90% always knew that. But I was hoping he could come back next year which is now looking extremely bleak.

[DILLIGAFER]

All this doom and gloom talk makes me laugh. Do you all really think they are going to tell anyone one anything? If so, your living in a fantasy world. The Colts and Manning are known for being very private. That being said, they are not going to say ya, almost fully recovered or nope, no recovery yet.

They are saying what they always say, nothing. No suprise.

[WoolMagnet]

Eh, you're not smarter than doogan. No one is, in fact. He shows up in every thread to make that a point. Arguing logic, and common sense doesn't matter, you're wrong, and that's the only thing that matters.

No comment...............