Raymond Berry

[Dustin]

.....unless he goes in as a Bronco.

nobody goes into the HOF with a specific team.

[The Old Crow]

.....unless he goes in as a Bronco.

 

 

He won't go in as a Bronco anymore than Johnny Unitas would go in as a Charger. He is known as a Colt. I could see Elway trying to retire his number in Denver  just to screw the Colts over again ! 

[The Old Crow]

nobody goes into the HOF with a specific team.

 

Yes, but suppose Elway and Bowlen put him into their Ring of Honor, or retire his number first ? Maybe Manning is still mad at Irsay, who knows ? Everyone will be watching that Denver- Indy game with a thousand plot lines. 

[atapcl]

Right I know. But legally speaking the owner of the team owns the team name....so unless there is a contract or something agreed upon beforehand between the city and the team owner then the owner can take the team and the name upon leaving and its nothing the city could do about it.

I believe the NFL brass made Model give up the team name and colors before they would allow the team to move. Modell did not have a choice if he wanted to move. The Raiders moved to LA and kept the colors and name but the NFL eventually forced them to move back to Oakland. The Rams are the only team I can remember the NFL gave their blessings to move without interference. The Colts shocked the NFL but were allowed to keep everything. The Owner owns the team but must abide by the guidelines of the NFL governing body.

[Dustin]

Yes, but suppose Elway and Bowlen put him into their Ring of Honor, or retire his number first ? Maybe Manning is still mad at Irsay, who knows ? Everyone will be watching that Denver- Indy game with a thousand plot lines.

retire his number first? Is it some type of race? Lol.

players usually don't go in the ring of honor for years. peyton's number and name will be hanging from he roster in LOS the day he retires.

[The Old Crow]

I believe the NFL brass made Model give up the team name and colors before they would allow the team to move. Modell did not have a choice if he wanted to move. The Raiders moved to LA and kept the colors and name but the NFL eventually forced them to move back to Oakland. The Rams are the only team I can remember the NFL gave their blessings to move without interference. The Colts shocked the NFL but were allowed to keep everything. The Owner owns the team but must abide by the guidelines of the NFL governing body.

 

It is true the NFL made Modell give the Browns name back to Cleveland, thank goodness. Lets see, the Baltimore Browns would have been named after the Cleveland Browns, who were named after Paul Brown who was fired by Modell and then became the Cincinnati Bengals, who used colors identical to the Browns. So basically we would have had a nickname of a Cleveland team that has the last name of the Bengals owner. The Indy Colts are so named because of the great triple crown horse racing in Indy, the Utah Jazz was invented because those Mormons are swinging Jazz music fans, and the LA Lakers sure have plenty of fishing lakes in LA. Tennesse should have kept the Oilers name because of all those oil drills in Nashville. At least the Dodgers still make sense because you were dodging cars around Ebbets Field in Brooklyn, and they are still dodging cars in crowded LA today. You have to love team nicknames that make no sense. 

[The Old Crow]

retire his number first? Is it some type of race? Lol.

players usually don't go in the ring of honor for years. peyton's number and name will be hanging from he roster in LOS the day he retires.

 

Don't trust Elway for a minute. You saw what he did to the Colts in 1983 ! If Manning wins a couple of Super Bowls in the next three years, all bets are off the table. Denver will have monuments and all kinds of honors for Peyton Manning. 

[HarassedOffTheSite]

I believe the NFL brass made Model give up the team name and colors before they would allow the team to move. Modell did not have a choice if he wanted to move. The Raiders moved to LA and kept the colors and name but the NFL eventually forced them to move back to Oakland. The Rams are the only team I can remember the NFL gave their blessings to move without interference. The Colts shocked the NFL but were allowed to keep everything. The Owner owns the team but must abide by the guidelines of the NFL governing body.

 

The NFL owners gave permission to Robert Irsay to move his team out of Baltimore (without any conditions) well before they gave Georgia Frontiere (Wife of former Colts owner Carol Rosenbloom) permission to move the Rams (the team Irsay originally purchased and then traded to Rosenbloom) out of Los Angeles.

[-JJ-]

I had forgotten that Berry was also the coach of the New England Patriots in 1985 when they had the misfortune of meeting the Bears in the Super Bowl. That Patriot team was the first wild card team to win three road games to get to the Super Bowl.

who are the other teams that since have won 3 road games as a wild card team?

I don't if you know this but that 85 Patriot team won with turnovers thanks to Raymond Berry.

Every practice Ray would have players stand in a circle and bounce the ball off each other and catch it to get them acclimated to the oblong characteristics of a football.

I could tell during each playoff game after the first turnover we would win the game. First the Jets.

Then Miami in the Orange Bowl where they hadn't won in 18 or 19 years. Then the kickoff out west against Oakland with the sun in Oakland's eye they fumbled the ball.

There was an early turnover in the Bears SB but I knew it really wasn't enough with THAT team.

[The Old Crow]

The NFL owners gave permission to Robert Irsay to move his team out of Baltimore (without any conditions) well before they gave Georgia Frontiere (Wife of former Colts owner Carol Rosenbloom) permission to move the Rams (the team Irsay originally purchased and then traded to Rosenbloom) out of Los Angeles.

 

Technically this is right, but the implication is that the NFL just gave Irsay card blanche to move the Colts because Baltimore was a bad city and not supporting the Colts. Here is the full story:

 

On February 28th 1984 The NFL lost the case when it tried to stop the Oakland Raiders from moving to Los Angeles by not approving the move. The 9th Circuit Court affirmed the lower court ruling that the NFL had violated anti-trust laws. 

 

On March 2nd 1984, the NFL held a special meeting in Chicago to review the Raiders anti-trust decision with Irsay absent. The league decided it could take no action against the Colts moving due to the anti-trust decision by the US Court of Appeals for the 9th circuit.

 

Later in the March 2nd meeting, Irsay was allowed to return and stated he was considering moving to Indianapolis, but was still negotiating with Baltimore. The league expressed neither approval or disapproval of the possible move, however due to the failure of the lawsuit against the Raiders and Al Davis, vis a vis moving franchises, the effect was that Bob Irsay could move the Colts to any city he chose , without interference from the NFL. 

 

So really, this wasn't an NFL vote of approval by the league for the move, but their inability to stop it based on the 9th circuit court's decision for Al Davis and the Raiders. In all probability, the NFL would have probably voted against the move from Baltimore, as it had Oakland, but there was no need for a vote, as the Davis case had rendered the NFL impotent to prevent any such move. 

[GoColts8818]

Yes, but suppose Elway and Bowlen put him into their Ring of Honor, or retire his number first ? Maybe Manning is still mad at Irsay, who knows ? Everyone will be watching that Denver- Indy game with a thousand plot lines. 

The number 18 is already retired in Denver.  In fact the guy it was retired for just recently passed away and had to tell Peyton to wear it because he was going to wear 16 for him out of respect.  No way on earth Peyton would let them retire 18 for him in Denver so if they did it they would have to do it without him being apart of the ceremony. 

[GoColts8818]

.....unless he goes in as a Bronco.

I am guessing you mean the Hall of Fame here.  You don't go into the NFL Hall of Fame as one team or another.  They list EVERY team you played for.  That's why Richard Dent has Indianapolis Colts on his bust in Canton even though he only played one year in Indy and is hardly known for it.  So yes Peyton's bust will say Indianapolis Colts and Denver Broncos. 

[GoColts8818]

I wish I could have followed the Colts after 1983, but I just couldn't. I like the city of Indy , and the people are great, but I grew up a Colts , Orioles, and Maryland fan and have ties to my city and region. I still like the Colts because they were the team of my youth, but had to move onto the Ravens. That being said, I will always like the old Baltimore Colts.

I'm starting to agree with GoColts8818 that it's good to celebrate the history of the old Colts in either city. As I've said before things happen for a reason, and Indy got a football team , and Baltimore got another one that is creating a new era of history for the city. Both cities are very fortunate by having teams that have been highly successful for a long period of time.

I think the best way to look at it is this way. 

 

The city of Baltimore wants to celebrate their history that they saw.  Meanwhile the Colts want to celebrate their franchise history.  They just happen to celebrate it IN Indy because that's where the franchise is now.  While there are players like Johnny U that viewed it as a split when the team moved several ex-Colts players look at it as they played for the Colts.  Berry is one of those guys and while he loves Baltimore too he also love his old team.  Why does the Colts franchise mean so much to them? Well they wore the horse shoe and blue and white for one.  Another is the personal relationships that were established there.  There is a great story in the book I told you about before about Irsay bringing the whole 75 team I think it was to Indianapolis to honor them one year because they had a special bond with him and him with them.  You also have a good chunk of players who played in both cities. 

 

When Baltimore celebrates the old Colts they are celebrating as a city.  When the Colts celebrate the old Colts they are doing it as a franchise.  Both are honoring a history that they shared.  It just so happens that one of those parties is now in Indianapolis. 

[GoColts8818]

I never noticed that, but he did. But was forced to change his number. That honestly had to be a mix up. As he never was anything more than a practice field guy.

I looked it up he was just that a practice squad guy and guy who was on the roster during the off-season.  Thus he never had an "official" number because he wasn't on the "official" roster.  Had he made the real roster he would have never worn 19. 

[GoColts8818]

That is why I was asking. I am not even sure how Marvin Harrison got John Mackey's number. I guess you always have strange quirks when a franchise moves. I remember last year when the Tennessee Titans donned Houston Oiler throwbacks. I doubt you would see Baltimore Colt throwbacks , ie. warm up jackets in Indy. I do see the old Colts logo here and there, but not much nostalgic items floating around.

Colts have used the throw backs and have started using the old bucking horse logo in the last few years.  In fact in 2003 or 2004 they removed the blue facemasks and darkened the jerseys to go back to the more "classic" look that the Colts used most of their days in Baltimore.  The Colts have always been proud of their of history and their place as one of the more storied teams in NFL history rather it be in Indianapolis or Baltimore. 

 

Mackey's number was never retired.  Since it wasn't retired when Marvin came to the Colts it was an open number.  Marvin wore number 8 in college so since he couldn't wear that at the pro-level my guess is that he just asked for 88. 

[GoColts8818]

Indy wasn't alone in issuing a #19 jersey to Heckendorf. The Ravens blundered and let the horrible Scott Mitchell wear 19 for the Ravens. Like Heckendorf , hopefully we will never see another # 19 appear in either city.

You aren't going to like this but the Ravens' didn't screw up.  The number 19 isn't a retired number for the Ravens

 

http://football.about.com/od/nflhistory/l/bl_retirednmbrs.htm

 

They don't have any officially retired numbers.  Remember while the Ravens have embraced the history of football in Baltimore they are a different franchise from the Colts.  My guess is Ray Lewis's #52 will be the first number officially retired for the Ravens and rightfully so. 

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Technically this is right...

 

I know.

 

So really, this wasn't an NFL vote of approval by the league for the move, but their inability to stop it...

 

Ehhh more unsourced parsing & spin from the Baltimore perspective.

 

The reality:

 

Irsay was given permission by NFL owners to move his franchise to the city of his choosing

[bayone]

I don't think he is serious. You can't tell me he knows all the ins and outs of Maryland politics and eminent domain, but wouldn't know who Raymond Berry is. Like FX said, he would have preferred that the Baltimore Colts never existed, and since they did exist, would rather expunge Baltimore from any part of Colts history.

 

 

no, I wasn't serious. I'm well aware of who he is and his impact on this franchise and NFL in general. And have a tremendous amount of respect for what he and other Colts from bygone years accomplished.

 

I just wanted to needle a couple of the folks who are FURIOUS that I brought out the real background behind the Colts franchise's departure from Baltimore.

 

And it appears I was wildly successful.

 

 

Sorry, I  recognize your name and seen it alot, also am sure read some stuff of yours  but not that familiar with u I imagine and never read anything about the real background on the move that u wrote , so not furious about anything u may have written on the subject,  - Did read it just now, see PS

 

I was just responding out of a childhood love 

 

I  grew up in  Brooklyn in the 1950's 1st pack of cards had Unitas rookie & been a Colt fan ever since , maybe even before as my older brother was a Colt fan and I basically followed his likes in sports

 

appreciate the respect you have for bygone Colts of yesteryear 

 

Guess was on early yesterday and says I have no more likes already & gave out only a few this Am

 

PS, re the move it is whatever it is,,

 

My problem was with NYC controller that only wanted to give the dodgers a new stadium where Mets are in Queens and not downtown Brooklyn on Flushing ave, otherwise Dodgers would of stayed in Brooklyn where I grew up, though now live in Mich

 

Yet still a Dodger Fan , I have never changed allegience from any of my childhood sport teams I followed

[The Old Crow]

I know.

Ehhh more unsourced parsing & spin from the Baltimore perspective.

The reality:

Irsay was given permission by NFL owners to move his franchise to the city of his choosing

I said that it was technically right but gave a more detailed description so people knew the implication behind the Raider anti -trust case. Just adding on some detail to your research and providing a more detailed explanation.

[The Old Crow]

I know.

Ehhh more unsourced parsing & spin from the Baltimore perspective.

The reality:

Irsay was given permission by NFL owners to move his franchise to the city of his choosing

I said that it was technically right but gave a more detailed description so people knew the implication behind the Raider anti -trust case. Just adding on some detail to your research and providing a more detailed explanation.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Just adding on some detail to your research and providing a more detailed explanation.

 

No you weren't.

 

You were attempting to use background details regarding one of many factors that influenced the owners as a canard implying they really technically had no decision to make at all and therfore by some manner of osmosis probably didn't really "approve" of the move.

 

They chose to vote...and they voted to give Irsay permission to move his franchise out of Baltimore.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Sorry, I  recognize your name...

 

Forgive me. I did not mean to imply that you were one of the people who have spun themselves up over anything I wrote. I completely understood you.

[The Old Crow]

Sorry, I recognize your name and seen it alot, also am sure read some stuff of yours but not that familiar with u I imagine and never read anything about the real background on the move that u wrote , so not furious about anything u may have written on the subject, - Did read it just now, see PS

I was just responding out of a childhood love

I grew up in Brooklyn in the 1950's 1st pack of cards had Unitas rookie & been a Colt fan ever since , maybe even before as my older brother was a Colt fan and I basically followed his likes in sports

appreciate the respect you have for bygone Colts of yesteryear

Guess was on early yesterday and says I have no more likes already & gave out only a few this Am

PS, re the move it is whatever it is,,

My problem was with NYC controller that only wanted to give the dodgers a new stadium where Mets are in Queens and not downtown Brooklyn on Flushing ave, otherwise Dodgers would of stayed in Brooklyn where I grew up, though now live in Mich

Yet still a Dodger Fan , I have never changed allegience from any of my childhood sport teams I followed

Probably out of all the moves , the Baltimore Colts and Brooklyn Dodgers were the most similar. You had two storied franchises , and stadium issues the local politicians failed to take care of. Many of the franchises that moved were bankrupt teams , or teams that didn't have the history of the Dodgers , Colts , or even Giants. It may bore younger forum members, but I love seeing old archival footage of the Dodgers in Brooklyn, or the Giants at the Polo Grounds. The Colts were right there in the late 50's , and that was a really cool era in sports.

[The Old Crow]

No you weren't.

You were attempting to use background details regarding one of many factors that influenced the owners as a canard implying they really technically had no decision to make at all and therfore by some manner of osmosis probably didn't really "approve" of the move.

They chose to vote...and they voted to give Irsay permission to move his franchise out of Baltimore.

.

The research I found didn't indicate there was an actual vote, though there might have been . A vote was irrelevant anyway , because whether they took one or not, because the court case went against the NFL, and for Davis and the Raiders. What I found out that Rozelle and the other owners gave neither approval or disapproval of the move, but the effect was that, as you said, Irsay could move where he wanted to. I am just putting additional context to your comments . Now, another interesting question would be if the owners would have approved the move had the NFL won the case against Al Davis and forced the Raiders to stay in Oakland. I guess we'll never know.

[The Old Crow]

You aren't going to like this but the Ravens' didn't screw up. The number 19 isn't a retired number for the Ravens

http://football.about.com/od/nflhistory/l/bl_retirednmbrs.htm

They don't have any officially retired numbers. Remember while the Ravens have embraced the history of football in Baltimore they are a different franchise from the Colts. My guess is Ray Lewis's #52 will be the first number officially retired for the Ravens and rightfully so.

I don't like it but figured it was true when I found out Scott Mitchell wore # 19 . I'm thinking Bisciotti, like Irsay with Heckendorf, wouldn't let this happen again.

[The Old Crow]

Colts have used the throw backs and have started using the old bucking horse logo in the last few years. In fact in 2003 or 2004 they removed the blue facemasks and darkened the jerseys to go back to the more "classic" look that the Colts used most of their days in Baltimore. The Colts have always been proud of their of history and their place as one of the more storied teams in NFL history rather it be in Indianapolis or Baltimore.

Mackey's number was never retired. Since it wasn't retired when Marvin came to the Colts it was an open number. Marvin wore number 8 in college so since he couldn't wear that at the pro-level my guess is that he just asked for 88.

Sounds like this was an oversight in Baltimore and Indy. I found an article where Sylvia Mackey said she would be happy if the Colts retired # 88 for Mackey and Harrison, and they could share the number. She went onto say they were both Syracuse players so they had an additional bond.

[The Old Crow]

I think the best way to look at it is this way.

The city of Baltimore wants to celebrate their history that they saw. Meanwhile the Colts want to celebrate their franchise history. They just happen to celebrate it IN Indy because that's where the franchise is now. While there are players like Johnny U that viewed it as a split when the team moved several ex-Colts players look at it as they played for the Colts. Berry is one of those guys and while he loves Baltimore too he also love his old team. Why does the Colts franchise mean so much to them? Well they wore the horse shoe and blue and white for one. Another is the personal relationships that were established there. There is a great story in the book I told you about before about Irsay bringing the whole 75 team I think it was to Indianapolis to honor them one year because they had a special bond with him and him with them. You also have a good chunk of players who played in both cities.

When Baltimore celebrates the old Colts they are celebrating as a city. When the Colts celebrate the old Colts they are doing it as a franchise. Both are honoring a history that they shared. It just so happens that one of those parties is now in Indianapolis.

As I said , I'm coming around to your way of thinking on this. If the 1975 team came there again , I may have to go to my first Colts home game since 1983, although I was at the Colts playoff games in Baltimore in 2006 and 2012.

[The Old Crow]

The number 18 is already retired in Denver. In fact the guy it was retired for just recently passed away and had to tell Peyton to wear it because he was going to wear 16 for him out of respect. No way on earth Peyton would let them retire 18 for him in Denver so if they did it they would have to do it without him being apart of the ceremony.

I would hope not, but I wouldn't put anything past Elway and Bowlen. The Yankees do this to other teams all the time .

[The Old Crow]

I know.

 

 

Ehhh more unsourced parsing & spin from the Baltimore perspective.

 

The reality:

 

Irsay was given permission by NFL owners to move his franchise to the city of his choosing

 

I know we've talked about this on another thread but in thinking about it the last few months, I have no trouble with your blog, but the main thing is the context of it. You have all the cold, dry facts laid out about every mistake Baltimore made, and I agree, there were many, but there is no discussion , for example , of the Irsay record in Baltimore which contributed to fan indifference, the Elway trade, and many other factors. I could lay out a similar blog about Cleveland that could totally justify the move to Baltimore from the Baltimore perspective , but we know there is more to the story. I could put a timeline together saying, for example :

 

Cleveland fails to build Modell a stadium.

Cleveland builds stadium for Indians, and not Browns.

Cleveland further anger Browns by putting up Rock and Roll Hall of Fame

Modell angry at Mayor White and threatens move

Modell doesn't get stadium improvements.

 

Now if I did that, I could put a total Baltimore spin to it, as you have with your article that has a totally weighted Indianapolis spin, but I would be leaving out many details about Modell's failings, and the product he put out on the field in the last fews years. To be more balanced, I would need to point out that Modell got into horrible financial trouble, much of it was his own fault. I would be leaving out attendance dropping because Modell didn't put out the best product on the field the last few years. I would be leaving out loyal Cleveland fans that still came out despite the poor product on the field, or Modell's bad business dealings and having to borrow money to sign Andre Rison. If I did that, it wouldn't be fair to Cleveland, because it would be a Baltimore spin story excusing the move from Cleveland to Baltimore , which it shouldn't . Baltimore was a preditor city looking for a team at the time, but to be fair from a historical perspective, I would need to put in the Cleveland, and in particular their fans, side of the story. By excluding this part, misses much of the human element of the story. 

 

Now getting back to the vote, maybe there is a record of this, but I can find no yea or nay votes from the individual owners either approving or disapproving the move from Baltimore to Indy, and I was looking at some of the court records and NFL records at the time. I can't find anything about individual owners taking a vote on this, only a general neither an approval or disapproval based on the Raiders case. Your context of this is that the NFL owners gave Irsay permission to move to a city of his choosing. While this is true, a reader of your blog would think all the owners got into a room and voted for this because Baltimore was a bad city that didn't support their team. The context you left out, was that the NFL was trying to block franchise shifting, which was why they were in a lawsuit about the Raiders moving from Oakland to LA. What happened was they lost, and realized they couldn't block Irsay one way or another, and therefore basically abstained and washed their hands of it. The NFL legally couldn't block the move, and that is the context that was left out.

 

I literally don't see anything in your blog about the Oakland/LA Raiders case which is a huge part of this story, and understanding it's implications. The main thing I am saying, is you could add many more elements to your blog to lay out a more fair and balanced understanding of what happened, for those that are interested in NFL history. I don't think that was your purpose though, in writing your blog. Understandably, you were probably tired of hearing Baltimore, or other NFL fans, blame Indy for the move, and felt the need to lay out a case in the blog. Fair minded Baltimore fans know Baltimore made many mistakes that contributed to the loss of the team. This is more apparent as the emotion has been removed by 30 years of time.  You have a lot of the facts, but not all and in the proper context, to tell the definative total story. Two elements that would improve your story would be Irsay's relationship with Baltimore fans, politicians, and the press, and the implications of the Oakland case on the Baltimore move to Indy. You may well regard it as Baltimore spin, but these things happened, and I was there when it happened. 

[Goodtimes]

Don't trust Elway for a minute. You saw what he did to the Colts in 1983 ! If Manning wins a couple of Super Bowls in the next three years, all bets are off the table. Denver will have monuments and all kinds of honors for Peyton Manning. 

 

I also believe that is true. If they do, I hope he remembers the fans carrying the "Suck for Luck" signs and the owner who cast him aside and goes into the HOF as a Bronco. It is sad to say this but INDY never really deserved having Peyton Manning for all of those years in light of those sign holders and the folks here who have so many negative things to say about him. I hope that he refuses the Ring of Honor too. He won't because he is a class act.

[bayone]

Probably out of all the moves , the Baltimore Colts and Brooklyn Dodgers were the most similar. You had two storied franchises , and stadium issues the local politicians failed to take care of. Many of the franchises that moved were bankrupt teams , or teams that didn't have the history of the Dodgers , Colts , or even Giants. It may bore younger forum members, but I love seeing old archival footage of the Dodgers in Brooklyn, or the Giants at the Polo Grounds. The Colts were right there in the late 50's , and that was a really cool era in sports.

 

 

Forgive me. I did not mean to imply that you were one of the people who have spun themselves up over anything I wrote. I completely understood you.

 

No Problem Brian

 

 

when dodgers moved to LA I would stay up at night with radio under my covers in bed listening for scores esp if Koufax & drsydale were pitching, 

 

had 2 pets, named UNIFAX & Dryberry,  unifax = Unitas and Koufax, Dryberry = Drysdale & raymond Berry

 

long for the boys of summer

 

The Duke of Flatbush as my signed bat says of Snider

 

Carl Erskine, Clem Labine, don Newcome , Podres and all those wins in first world series victory

 

Campnella ., Rosboro, Gil Hodges, hated seeing him as a met later on

 

Jim Gilliam , what a great bumter

 

Peee We Reece

 

Carl Furilo 

 

Jackie Robinson

 

and the rest , thats enough off top of my head

[HarassedOffTheSite]

.The research I found...

 

Could you please cite the information you researched?

[The Old Crow]

Brian, I found a copy of the findings of the Mayor and City council of Baltimore versus the Baltimore Football Club, ie Indianapolis colts. It was on www.leagle.com/decision/1985902624FSupp278_1839

As you probably know , prior to the Raiders case it took 3/4 of the owners to approve a franchise moving from one city to another one. After the NFL lost the case to the Raiders , the NFL and it's owners didn't really even need to vote. , because at that point Irsay could move when he wanted.

[The Old Crow]

No Problem Brian

when dodgers moved to LA I would stay up at night with radio under my covers in bed listening for scores esp if Koufax & drsydale were pitching,

had 2 pets, named UNIFAX & Dryberry, unifax = Unitas and Koufax, Dryberry = Drysdale & raymond Berry

long for the boys of summer

The Duke of Flatbush as my signed bat says of Snider

Carl Erskine, Clem Labine, don Newcome , Podres and all those wins in first world series victory

Campnella ., Rosboro, Gil Hodges, hated seeing him as a met later on

Jim Gilliam , what a great bumter

Peee We Reece

Carl Furilo

Jackie Robinson

and the rest , thats enough off top of my head

I feel your pain. I felt the same way about the Colts when they left. Even if I had wanted to stay a Colts fan, part of the fun is going to games, and at that time of my life , I wasn't heading out to Indy for games. I'm also a very loyal guy to my city and state , so I just couldn't follow them anymore. I understand people that did, but it just wasn't for me. At least we have the memories !

[BOTT]

I believe the NFL brass made Model give up the team name and colors before they would allow the team to move. Modell did not have a choice if he wanted to move. The Raiders moved to LA and kept the colors and name but the NFL eventually forced them to move back to Oakland. The Rams are the only team I can remember the NFL gave their blessings to move without interference. The Colts shocked the NFL but were allowed to keep everything. The Owner owns the team but must abide by the guidelines of the NFL governing body.

The NFL didn't force Al Davis to move back to Oakland. The city agreed to stadium renovations and Al decided to move back. The Browns are the only team I can think of that somewhat unwillingly changed their name. I could be wrong, I'm far from an expert on the subject.

[The Old Crow]

I think Al just wanted to move back to Oakland. Because of the 1984 case, the NFL couldn't have stopped him if they wanted to.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Brian, I found a copy of the findings of the Mayor and City council of Baltimore versus the Baltimore Football Club, ie Indianapolis colts. It was on www.leagle.com/decision/1985902624FSupp278_1839

 

Wow. What an amazing document. Let me look at it and I'll come back.

[bayone]

I feel your pain. I felt the same way about the Colts when they left. Even if I had wanted to stay a Colts fan, part of the fun is going to games, and at that time of my life , I wasn't heading out to Indy for games. I'm also a very loyal guy to my city and state , so I just couldn't follow them anymore. I understand people that did, but it just wasn't for me. At least we have the memories !

 

 

 

 understand city loyalty, my brother however raised me with Dodgers as only NY team in any sport to route for

 

I have , when won at auction a few years back 1 of only 5 graded 7 , & only 1 other graded at 8 , in slab with grading and authenticity ID etc etc (( really didnt cost much luckily, see attachment )  an unused ticket of last game at Ebbets fid,, BTW Dodgers Won

 

to me ticket looks brand new , not 1 crease

 

and ran out of likes again  (( here to long, maybe later back on forum, much to do now ))

 

http://forums.colts.com/topic/20981-raymond-berry/page-3#entry576631

[The Old Crow]

The NFL didn't force Al Davis to move back to Oakland. The city agreed to stadium renovations and Al decided to move back. The Browns are the only team I can think of that somewhat unwillingly changed their name. I could be wrong, I'm far from an expert on the subject.

 

 

The Browns/Ravens deal was part of a settlement between Baltimore/Cleveland and the NFL that left the logos, history, and championships in Cleveland, and they would be awarded a new team in three years. Modell was only allowed to leave with the players and front office to Baltimore, but all the legacy, championships, and hall of famers, stayed in Cleveland, thank god. 

 

I think Modell was more prone to reach a settlement, than the litigious Davis and Irsay would have been. He could have fought to bring the Browns name all all franchise records to Baltimore, but he felt bad for Cleveland, but had gotten himself into such bad financial straights, he thought he had to move. I think until the day he died, Modell felt bad that he had to make the move, but I don't believe Davis or Irsay gave it a second thought. Jim Irsay , at least, shows some pangs for the old days, and has been fairly kind to the old Baltimore Colts legacy. 

[BOTT]

The Browns/Ravens deal was part of a settlement between Baltimore/Cleveland and the NFL that left the logos, history, and championships in Cleveland, and they would be awarded a new team in three years. Modell was only allowed to leave with the players and front office to Baltimore, but all the legacy, championships, and hall of famers, stayed in Cleveland, thank god. 

 

I think Modell was more prone to reach a settlement, than the litigious Davis and Irsay would have been. He could have fought to bring the Browns name all all franchise records to Baltimore, but he felt bad for Cleveland, but had gotten himself into such bad financial straights, he thought he had to move. I think until the day he died, Modell felt bad that he had to make the move, but I don't believe Davis or Irsay gave it a second thought. Jim Irsay , at least, shows some pangs for the old days, and has been fairly kind to the old Baltimore Colts legacy.

And I think you know how I feel about that agreement....it's a total farce