Brees vs Other Elite QBs

[LuckyColt]

I'm not saying Manning had a great year. I'm certainly not saying the team had a great year. I'm just saying that Manning was forced into a tough situation because of the state of the team, and it showed when you look at The Stretch. Outside of those three games, he was even better than he was in 2009, when he won MVP and we went to the Super Bowl.

If you want a culprit for why we couldn't sustain a long win streak, like we normally did (I think we had at least a 5 game win streak every year from 2003 to 2009), turn to the defense, or the non-existent run game. It wasn't Manning's fault that we only won ten games. I don't even really think The Stretch was Manning's fault entirely.

Edit: One other thing: The fact that he only threw 17 interceptions on 679 attempts is actually an impressive stat. His interception rate in 2010 was lower than it was in 2009, and lower than his career interception rate.

See, it's relatively speculative. The biggest discrepancy here is whether it was Peyton or the rest of the team. Neither is necessarily right, but I think I have a decent claim, whether it's acknowledged or not. His stats were inflated because he had to carry the team, but that isn't an indicator that he had a better season than the previous one. And his interception rating was lower, that was his best stat of the season, I'll give you that. But his touchdown rating was also lower because he had less touchdowns per pass, so it goes both ways.

[Fx Stryker]

But it's not a generalization. The fact of the matter is the Colts have always relied on Manning, and he always delivered the W's. With him we had I think like 4 seasons where we started 6-0. That season we never could get hot until the end, and then we lost in the Wild Card, the first Wild Card loss since the early 2000's.

The Colts starting average is 6.27-2.73. They started 6-3. Which is right on track for the Colts average. The only difference was the three game flop.

Also the lost WC loss was in '08.

[Superman]

See, it's relatively speculative. The biggest discrepancy here is whether it was Peyton or the rest of the team. Neither is necessarily right, but I think I have a decent claim, whether it's acknowledged or not. His stats were inflated because he had to carry the team, but that isn't an indicator that he had a better season than the previous one. And his interception rating was lower, that was his best stat of the season, I'll give you that. But his touchdown rating was also lower because he had less touchdowns per pass, so it goes both ways.

All that is true. I'm not saying he had a better season. I'm mostly counter-punching the claim that he had an off season, that his injury was the reason he threw 17 interceptions, that The Stretch defines the quality of the year he had.

We can parse these stats til the cows come home. They will always be at least partly subjective. And there's always two side to every coin. But Manning didn't have a bad year in 2010. He had three bad weeks. The rest of the season was pretty much standard Manning, the same kind of performance he turned in the previous two seasons when he won MVP and we won 26 out of 32 regular season games, and went to a Super Bowl.

[FireJimCaldwell]

These #'s might have got lost in a previous post.

Manning vs. the 2010 NFL MVP in throwing the ball.

Brady's receivers had 3 MORE YAC with 126 less catches. Ball in the Air, Manning completed more passes and threw for a higher average.

Peyton Manning wasn't the problem of 2010, and it wasn't the beginning of the end. If he were healthy last year we are talking about another 10+ win season, another AFC South title and there would be no mention of winning 6 or so games this season, or 90% of the garbage this franchise has had to deal with the past 8-9 months.

[LuckyColt]

Also the lost WC loss was in '08.

That's correct, I forgot about the Chargers...

And there's always two side to every coin. But Manning didn't have a bad year in 2010. He had three bad weeks.

Exactly. No one said he had a bad year, I said it wasn't as good as the previous years. No one has ever said Peyton was the problem of 2010. If there's two sides to every coin, then I think both opinions are sound, considering the fact that both were backed up with plenty of references.

Just because my opinion is different doesn't make it any less educated. It's well educated. I watch every game, and I am very, very knowledgeable about football.

[FireJimCaldwell]

In making such an analysis, I can say that, of those 11 interceptions, only one looked like there was something up with Manning's arm, and that's the last pick against the Patriots. Throwing to Garcon, the ball seemed to die mid-flight. Could have been the wind, but it seemed really weird. If the throw had been better, that doesn't get picked off, and I'm pretty certain The Stretch doesn't happen. If we win starting with that game, we could have finished 13-3, tied with the Patriots but owning the tie-breaker, Manning's numbers would have earned him more MVP votes, we would have had a first round bye, and things might have been different.

We might not be talking about the same throw, but there was a similar play also against the patriots where his harm was either hit, or he had to adjust the throw during the throwing process. Like I said, it might be the same throw, but there was one against them at some point that died and was picked off. It might not even been from the same game, but he had pressure on him within a few seconds which affected the throw I'm talking about.

[Superman]

We might not be talking about the same throw, but there was a similar play also against the patriots where his harm was either hit, or he had to adjust the throw during the throwing process. Like I said, it might be the same throw, but there was one against them at some point that died and was picked off. It might not even been from the same game, but he had pressure on him within a few seconds which affected the throw I'm talking about.

I don't think he was hit on the throw I'm talking about.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I don't think he was hit on the throw I'm talking about.

The one I have in mind was slight contact if anything. It might have just been more of having to adjust the throw...

[Superman]

Exactly. No one said he had a bad year, I said it wasn't as good as the previous years. No one has ever said Peyton was the problem of 2010. If there's two sides to every coin, then I think both opinions are sound, considering the fact that both were backed up with plenty of references.

Just because my opinion is different doesn't make it any less educated. It's well educated. I watch every game, and I am very, very knowledgeable about football.

You actually said it was the beginning of the end. That's when I chimed in.

I'm not knocking your opinion or your knowledge of football.

[LuckyColt]

You actually said it was the beginning of the end. That's when I chimed in.

And that's my opinion. It was quite evident that it's been a drop off since 2009. 14-2, 10-6. Texans still would have won the division if we had Peyton this year or not, our defense and special teams certainly didn't get better from 2010 to 2011.

[FireJimCaldwell]

And that's my opinion. It was quite evident that it's been a drop off since 2009. 14-2, 10-6. Texans still would have won the division if we had Peyton this year or not, our defense and special teams certainly didn't get better from 2010 to 2011.

With what was under center it is impossible to judge whether they improved or not.

[LuckyColt]

With what was under center it is impossible to judge whether they improved or not.

It is possible to judge the rise of the Texans. They stuck it to us. If they didn't have to use a third string quarterback they could have at least competed to get to the Super Bowl.

[FireJimCaldwell]

It is possible to judge the rise of the Texans. They stuck it to us. If they didn't have to use a third string quarterback they could have at least competed to get to the Super Bowl.

That is also your opinion. I'll leave it at that.

[Superman]

And that's my opinion. It was quite evident that it's been a drop off since 2009. 14-2, 10-6. Texans still would have won the division if we had Peyton this year or not, our defense and special teams certainly didn't get better from 2010 to 2011.

Drop off doesn't equal "the beginning of the end," and the team record dropping off doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Manning's ability or performance.

There were adjustments that should have been made, and the front office actually acknowledged that with some of the changes that were made before the 2011 season. That doesn't mean the run had to be over. And with Manning, I have no doubt we would have competed for the division title and been in the playoffs. And once that happened, the sky's the limit.

[LuckyColt]

There were adjustments that should have been made, and the front office actually acknowledged that with some of the changes that were made before the 2011 season. That doesn't mean the run had to be over. And with Manning, I have no doubt we would have competed for the division title and been in the playoffs. And once that happened, the sky's the limit.

Very truthful. I just don't think Irsay would have nuked the franchise in the offseason this year if he believed Manning and the rest of the team could still compete in the playoffs. Oh well. It's all in the past.

[Superman]

Very truthful. I just don't think Irsay would have nuked the franchise in the offseason this year if he believed Manning and the rest of the team could still compete in the playoffs. Oh well. It's all in the past.

Throw in Manning's injury status, the $28 million option bonus, and the failures of the front office and coaching staff in Manning's absence, and the changes were justified. I think the Manning situation might have been different if the option bonus were due in June, not March, because then it could have been negotiated and the future cap hits could have been different. But I think Polian and Caldwell still would have been gone.

Many people have presented arguments on this here forum about how we could have continued to contend with Manning: trade out of #1, gather young talent through the draft and trading picks, sign an offensive lineman, and the composition of the team looks entirely different. The success of that strategy would have hinged on a) who the coaches are, and b) how well Manning comes back from his injury.

[Gavin]

I thought about the idea of keeping Manning and trading our #1 pick countless times but like Superman said above, 28 million dollars due coming off of multiple neck surgeries, but I dont want this thread to be turning into another keeping Manning vs drafting Luck debate, its all water under the bridge

[Fx Stryker]

I'm pretty sure Jim and SP are talking about the same throw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDu8bRzu8sY&feature=player_detailpage#t=229s

[Superman]

I meant to check last night when I got home, but I didn't. I'll check tonight.

[GoPats]

I'm pretty sure Jim and SP are talking about the same throw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDu8bRzu8sY&feature=player_detailpage#t=229s

Man, I watched that clip and am really, really going to miss the Pats-Colts rivalry. It went on long enough that there was a level of mutual respect despite the competitive nature of both teams and QBs.

[Fx Stryker]

Man, I watched that clip and am really, really going to miss the Pats-Colts rivalry. It went on long enough that there was a level of mutual respect despite the competitive nature of both teams and QBs.

No better rivalry. At least Pat fans still get to somewhat live it through Pats/Broncos games this year. Unfortunately we are left with nothing.