question about mathis's suspension

[BOTT]

i did read the thread. what am i missing?

That many men use clomid for fertility purposes, whether FDA approved or not.

Just because he has children doesn't mean there wasn't fertility problems in the past or that they arose after the birth of their twins.

[husker61]

That many men use clomid for fertility purposes, whether FDA approved or not.

Just because he has children doesn't mean there wasn't fertility problems in the past or that they arose after the birth of their twins.

 

you sound like a prime candidate for a bridge i have for sale. it crosses the hudson from new jersey to new york, cash only.

[Superman]

you sound like a prime candidate for a bridge i have for sale. it crosses the hudson from new jersey to new york, cash only.

 

Is this just skepticism toward professional athletes making excuses about PEDs, or do you really not think men take Clomid for fertility reasons?

[husker61]

Is this just skepticism toward professional athletes making excuses about PEDs, or do you really not think men take Clomid for fertility reasons?

 

i am skeptical and no doubt people take unproven drugs for things they aren't proven to cure. when you look at the facts that i have seen reported in this case, it just is clear to me it's a bunch of **. he has two kids already and is still very young (fertility speaking). what effects sperm count in young males? streroids, they drastically lower sperm count while taking them in large doses. if he is taking them to trick his body into producing more testosterone, then he knows that is cheating. then there is always, why no appeal. many others that have tested positive have appealed to lower the penalty. when is the last time a professional athlete hasn't made excuses for failing a ped drug test? i'm not giving him a pass just because he is a colt. if he was a patriot, all, the colts fans being so nice to him would be killing him.

 

think about this. he's getting older, had his best year, and gets caught using ped's???? i'm not giving him a big contract when the current one is up.

[BOTT]

you sound like a prime candidate for a bridge i have for sale. it crosses the hudson from new jersey to new york, cash only.

Oh that was so hilarious!!! Except for the fact that I told you he was probably cheating.

[Superman]

i am skeptical and no doubt people take unproven drugs for things they aren't proven to cure. when you look at the facts that i have seen reported in this case, it just is clear to me it's a bunch of **. he has two kids already and is still very young (fertility speaking). what effects sperm count in young males? streroids, they drastically lower sperm count while taking them in large doses. if he is taking them to trick his body into producing more testosterone, then he knows that is cheating. then there is always, why no appeal. many others that have tested positive have appealed to lower the penalty. when is the last time a professional athlete hasn't made excuses for failing a ped drug test? i'm not giving him a pass just because he is a colt. if he was a patriot, all, the colts fans being so nice to him would be killing him.

 

think about this. he's getting older, had his best year, and gets caught using ped's???? i'm not giving him a big contract when the current one is up.

 

You're talking about looking at the facts, but so many of the comments you made in this post are inaccurate, or betray a lack of proper understanding of the situation. First, Mathis DID appeal; the suspension was upheld. Second, doctors prescribed drugs for uses other than their FDA-approved usage all the time; it's called off-label usage. This isn't rare or unique. Third, there are a great number of things that can affect a man's sperm count, other than steroids. Fourth, no one knows whether Mathis or his wife sought assistance with fertility for their twins.

 

I don't have a lot of interest in defending Mathis. He messed up by taking a banned substance, whether it's Clomid or something else. If he took Clomid to recover from a steroid cycle or if he took it to help with fertility, he broke the rules. Four game suspension is the penalty. It's too bad for him and for us, but those are the breaks.

 

Personally, I'm not very fond of the PED policies in professional sports. It's outdated, and often draconian. The media has railed against PEDs and cheaters for so long, and now public opinion has decided that if a player uses a banned substance, he's a cheater with no integrity. I disagree with this approach altogether, and so, I don't really care whether he was using Clomid for fertility or not. I care that he hurt the team, and as such, I wouldn't care at all if he weren't a member of my favorite team.

[GoColts8818]

At the end of the day it doesn't matter why Mathis took this what matters is that he violated the NFL's banned substance policy that he could have avoided doing with one simple phone call. It's a mistake that will cost him four games and it's the fact he admitted he didn't make that phone call that cost him his appeal. Had he called the right people and they said it was okay and it really wasn't then he would have had a case.

A drug policy like this can not factor in emotional reasons like Mathis was trying to have a kid because if the league let Mathis off for that what happens the next time someone is busted for this drug? They are going to say I was just trying to have a kid and you let Mathis off for that and now you drug system has no teeth.

It's cold and heartless but most rules and punishments are they are a product of logic and brains not emotions and hearts. Mathis messed up he has no one to blame but himself because he didn't make a phone call. He knows that and has admitted as much and is holding himself accountable. If he can do that so can the fans at least I would think they can.

[steveeoaktree33]

Mistakes happen. After all of the respectable years of service, it's obvious to me that Mr Mathis is NOT a problem player by any stretch. Best of luck Robert, we're behind ya!

[Gramz]

He broke the rules, plain and simple.   No excuses.

[ColtsBlueFL]

{snip items I've agreed with without comment}

 

I don't have a lot of interest in defending Mathis. He messed up by taking a banned substance, whether it's Clomid or something else. If he took Clomid to recover from a steroid cycle or if he took it to help with fertility, he broke the rules. Four game suspension is the penalty. It's too bad for him and for us, but those are the breaks.

 

Personally, I'm not very fond of the PED policies in professional sports. It's outdated, and often draconian. The media has railed against PEDs and cheaters for so long, and now public opinion has decided that if a player uses a banned substance, he's a cheater with no integrity. I disagree with this approach altogether, and so, I don't really care whether he was using Clomid for fertility or not. I care that he hurt the team, and as such, I wouldn't care at all if he weren't a member of my favorite team.

 

Yes, by not checking with team doctor, or NFL, he messed up.  Any other circumstance surrounding this issue is moot.  4 game suspension must be served.

 

As for public opinion, it has been the players themselves that did it. They took them, and denied it.  Then they lied to our, and even congress', faces.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAxo4pCITRM

 

The media helped by digging and digging until the truth began to bubble up.  I remember what was the start {at least for me} of all this PED shenanigans.  Jose Conseco and his book Juiced.  Oh how I wanted to believe it was just him, and maybe, only maybe,  Bash Brother Mark McGwire.  But before my eyes, they a fell, all the while they had my support.  Sosa, McGwire, Palmiero, Pettitte, A Rod, etc...  even those that was nvolved or escaped prosecution or found not guilty for lying (not found innocent, though) are still highly suspect to this day- IE: Bonds, Clemens.  Then bans in running sports, Olympic sport, etc...

 

Then Lance Armstrong, stripped of all his amazing string of Tour de France victories, 'after' having recovered from cancer and being a model for all.  And more.  Then all the HGH and PEDS stories that came out of the NFL.

 

The trusting person in me wants to believe in Mathis, and so I do.  But  I cannot for the life of me blame anybody else for expecting the worst.  I had done the same for many of those baseball players listed above until my support was chewed up and spit out by the justice scale.

[Nadine]

Yes, by not checking with team doctor, or NFL, he messed up.  Any other circumstance surrounding this issue is moot.  4 game suspension must be served.

 

As for public opinion, it has been the players themselves that did it. They took them, and denied it.  Then they lied to our, and even congress', faces.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAxo4pCITRM

 

The media helped by digging and digging until the truth began to bubble up.  I remember what was the start {at least for me} of all this PED shenanigans.  Jose Conseco and his book Juiced.  Oh how I wanted to believe it was just him, and maybe, only maybe,  Bash Brother Mark McGwire.  But before my eyes, they a fell, all the while they had my support.  Sosa, McGwire, Palmiero, Pettitte, A Rod, etc...  even those that was nvolved or escaped prosecution or found not guilty for lying (not found innocent, though) are still highly suspect to this day- IE: Bonds, Clemens.  Then bans in running sports, Olympic sport, etc...

 

Then Lance Armstrong, stripped of all his amazing string of Tour de France victories, 'after' having recovered from cancer and being a model for all.  And more.  Then all the HGH and PEDS stories that came out of the NFL.

 

The trusting person in me wants to believe in Mathis, and so I do.  But  I cannot for the life of me blame anybody else for expecting the worst.  I had done the same for many of those baseball players listed above until my support was chewed up and spit out by the justice scale.

I believe mathis because he's never given me a reason not too.

That said, I understand the pressure to take PED.The NFL is highly competitive and I'm sure we have no idea the pressure these guys are under.

But the PED ban......is there to protect them and to maintain the integrity of the sport.

I had a round of steriods once. It was over 6 days.They step you up and then back down in those 6 days so I really had the impression that this was some serious stuff.

I can see why people get addicted to it.YOU FEEL AWESOME.Really great.

And who doesn't want to feel good?Especially when you get battered for a living.

Tough game.

[Superman]

Yes, by not checking with team doctor, or NFL, he messed up.  Any other circumstance surrounding this issue is moot.  4 game suspension must be served.

 

As for public opinion, it has been the players themselves that did it. They took them, and denied it.  Then they lied to our, and even congress', faces.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAxo4pCITRM

 

The media helped by digging and digging until the truth began to bubble up.  I remember what was the start {at least for me} of all this PED shenanigans.  Jose Conseco and his book Juiced.  Oh how I wanted to believe it was just him, and maybe, only maybe,  Bash Brother Mark McGwire.  But before my eyes, they a fell, all the while they had my support.  Sosa, McGwire, Palmiero, Pettitte, A Rod, etc...  even those that was nvolved or escaped prosecution or found not guilty for lying (not found innocent, though) are still highly suspect to this day- IE: Bonds, Clemens.  Then bans in running sports, Olympic sport, etc...

 

Then Lance Armstrong, stripped of all his amazing string of Tour de France victories, 'after' having recovered from cancer and being a model for all.  And more.  Then all the HGH and PEDS stories that came out of the NFL.

 

The trusting person in me wants to believe in Mathis, and so I do.  But  I cannot for the life of me blame anybody else for expecting the worst.  I had done the same for many of those baseball players listed above until my support was chewed up and spit out by the justice scale.

 

I don't take issue with what you're saying. PEDs were considered immoral -- cheating -- even before they were against the rules (MLB didn't take a real stand against them until recently). Anyone who used them was breaking the rules, written or unwritten, and everyone who lied about it or covered it up showed that they cared more about gaining an edge than about maintaining the so-called integrity of their sports. You break the rules, you should pay the price.

 

That's separate from the overriding viewpoint surrounding PEDs. Rather than pursuing the science and figuring out what the long-term ramifications of hGH are, we've simply blacklisted it and told athletes that they have to stay away from it. There are other treatments and substances that are said to increase stamina, promote growth and recovery, etc., and they are considered PEDs, which means you can't use them, or else you're a cheater. And I think that's a close-minded approach that does no one any favors. If hGH can help athletes recover from injury faster, why should it be blacklisted?

 

As an example: A player can sleep in a hyperbaric chamber to increase red blood count and improve cardiovascular endurance, but a player can't infuse red blood cells to do the same thing. One is considered innovative; the other is considered blood doping. And I understand that there are potential dangers to the treatments, but there are dangers to free diving, which can lead to increased CO2 tolerance, which means increased lung endurance. I'm not saying that athletes should chase after risky treatments. I just disagree with the stigma surrounding anything that isn't considered "traditional." 

 

And if a player DOES have naturally occurring low testosterone, he can't take a testosterone booster without breaking the rules. Even though working out the way NFL players do should naturally boost testosterone above normal levels.

 

The whole system just strikes me as sanctimonious, rather than based on science and fact. We have romanticized sports and athletic accomplishments, and hide behind this belief that letting athletes take advantage of new treatments undermines what the players in the past accomplished. But players begin training more intensely at younger ages, and have access to new equipment and specialized routines, which leads to them being bigger, faster, stronger, than players used to be anyways. With or without steroids, Barry Bonds would have been bigger and faster than Hank Aaron and Mickey Mantle, and he played against players who were bigger and stronger than Sandy Koufax.

 

None of this means that I think cheating and lying are okay, or that we should ignore the fact that these players have cheated and lied. But there's a big difference between taking horse steroids like Rafael Palmeiro did, and using thymosin to promote recovery from a soft tissue injury. I think we should treat them differently, rather than labeling them all PEDs and slamming the door shut out of a sense of nobility and tradition. 

 

So even if Mathis' story is true, 100%, he still broke the rules, and the punishment stands. But I think the entire system needs to be revisited.

 

Sorry for the rant. TL;DR, I think the perception and the reality don't line up as it pertains to PEDs.

[husker61]

my problem isn't that he took the ped, it's the excuse/cover-up that gets under my skin. just admit you needed a boost and tried to get away taking something that you didn't think you would be caught taking. athletes almost always make up excuses when they get caught taking ped's (i don't believe andy pettitte did). i would have more respect for them if they just admitted what they did. the cover-up makes a bad situation worse.

[Superman]

my problem isn't that he took the ped, it's the excuse/cover-up that gets under my skin. just admit you needed a boost and tried to get away taking something that you didn't think you would be caught taking. athletes almost always make up excuses when they get caught taking ped's (i don't believe andy pettitte did). i would have more respect for them if they just admitted what they did. the cover-up makes a bad situation worse.

 

Meh. Aside from your skepticism (and it's not just yours; most fans are skeptical of pro athletes when they get busted for PEDs), there's no way to know what actually happened. You're proceeding as if you absolutely KNOW that Mathis was trying to get a boost, and you don't. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

my problem isn't that he took the ped, it's the excuse/cover-up that gets under my skin. just admit you needed a boost and tried to get away taking something that you didn't think you would be caught taking. athletes almost always make up excuses when they get caught taking ped's (i don't believe andy pettitte did). i would have more respect for them if they just admitted what they did. the cover-up makes a bad situation worse.

 

Well, I hate to break it to you, but Pettitte came clean right away about using HGH.  So you are wrong on that assumption, it is also possible you could be wrong on others too.

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/pettitte-timeline-clemens-peds-part-andy-story-article-1.1462534

[Superman]

Well, I hate to break it to you, but Pettitte came clean right away about using HGH.  So you are wrong on that assumption, it is also possible you could be wrong on others too.

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/pettitte-timeline-clemens-peds-part-andy-story-article-1.1462534

 

I read his comment as meaning that Pettitte didn't deny it when he was caught.

[ColtsBlueFL]

I read his comment as meaning that Pettitte didn't deny it when he was caught.

 

Yeah, ok, see it now.  Might be the only guy I know that did fess up straight away too.

[husker61]

I read his comment as meaning that Pettitte didn't deny it when he was caught.

 

correct.

[husker61]

Meh. Aside from your skepticism (and it's not just yours; most fans are skeptical of pro athletes when they get busted for PEDs), there's no way to know what actually happened. You're proceeding as if you absolutely KNOW that Mathis was trying to get a boost, and you don't. 

 

99% of the posts are people's opinions. even when posting a stat, it is used to support their opinion. it's my opinion based on what i have read. only one person knows for sure his intentions.

[Superman]

99% of the posts are people's opinions. even when posting a stat, it is used to support their opinion. it's my opinion based on what i have read. only one person knows for sure his intentions.

 

I agree with that. That's why I don't personally have a problem with his story. It hasn't been proven to be false. 

[husker61]

I agree with that. That's why I don't personally have a problem with his story. It hasn't been proven to be false. 

 

that's the thing. you will never be able to prove one way or the other his reason for taking the drug. it's the perfect excuse for being caught and why the reason for taking a ped should have absolutely no bearing on the punishment.

[Superman]

that's the thing. you will never be able to prove one way or the other his reason for taking the drug. it's the perfect excuse for being caught and why the reason for taking a ped should have absolutely no bearing on the punishment.

 

Sure you can. He could have tested positive for anabolic steroids, rather than a substance that's often used for recovery post-cycle. That would be an entirely different story. Players test positive for true-blue PEDs all the time, and there's no doubt what they were doing (despite the denial). 

 

I think Mathis has a pretty good story, for several reasons. I don't think anyone is interested in trying his case again, and I'm not fully convinced, but as denials go, he had a pretty compelling one. Throw in the doctor's sworn testimony (yes, the doctor could have been paid off), and it's more plausible than a guy claiming that his sample was contaminated, or defaulting to the Adderall defense, which the league can't refute without violating privacy. And I think there's a big difference between a professional athlete taking a testosterone booster -- which any one of us could take with little trouble -- and someone taking horse steroids.

 

That's neither here nor there. He broke the rules; he pays the price (and so do his teammates). Like you, I have no problem with the zero tolerance stance of the NFL in this regard.

 

Where we differ is that I don't have a problem giving Mathis the benefit of the doubt. I'm not as jaded and disillusioned by the PED scandals as other people are. As I said earlier, I think some of the substances we call PEDs are relatively harmless, sometimes us normal people take them on a daily basis (like Adderall and testosterone), and I hesitate to apply a blanket "cheater" label to anyone and everyone who tests positive for so-called PEDs. It's not just a Colts' fan defending Mathis; I've been saying this about the PED issue for years now.

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