Would Polian have done this trade?

[FireJimCaldwell]

Polian/Poole & Grigson/Davis are about as apples to apples as you will ever find.

[StewieG]

Bill wasn't a big trade guy but,I think any GM would make a trade if they thought it was a good thing for the team.

Yeah maybe so, but Polian RARELY if ever took a chance at a guy with a few character issues.

[Superman]

I'm glad you are so easily amused. I suppose you see only what you agree to see but that is human nature. As far as the 2012 Colts being compared to the 2006-2011 Colts it cracks me up that anyone wii even attempt to compare and even attempt to explain any differences since the 2012 Colts have not played a down yet in the regular season.

I'm not talking about results. I'm talking about the state of the team, the expectations, the cap issues, offensive and defensive schemes, etc. Polian was trying to maintain a title contender (we agree that he didn't do a good job of it). Grigson is trying to build a title contender. The differences are myriad.

And if we, for some reason, need to wait until the season is played (I don't think we do; we know that the 2012 Colts aren't title contenders), we can always compare the 1998 Colts to the 2006-2011 Colts, and recognize that the teams were different, the objectives were different, the restrictions were different, etc.

That's probably not the only reason Polian was more restrictive with free agency and trades as time went on; he stated several times that he has an aversion to free agency because of cost (you typically pay more in free agency than you do when resigning your own players), and he stated that he's not keen on trading for vets for various reasons. As he got older, he got more reclusive. No one really knows how much of the draft and personnel decisions he was making over the last few years, whether Chris was pulling the strings or what. But the collective decision making was ... deficient, to put it mildly. So maybe, Bill Polian at 69 wouldn't have done certain things that Bill Polian at 55 did. Maybe that means learning from mistakes, and maybe it means becoming overly conservative. Probably both in his case; he wouldn't do the Corey Simon deal again, but maybe he passed on other similar opportunities because of how the Simon deal went (I think he said as much).

By the way, I was just joking on the agree to disagree thing. You definitely drive me crazy sometimes -- I think you know that -- but you at least present coherent arguments. And you punctuate. I've missed you.

[GoColts8818]

Yeah maybe so, but Polian RARELY if ever took a chance at a guy with a few character issues.

The two I can think of were Corey Simon (blew up in his face) and Ed Johnson who he even gave a second chance. Clearly the exception to rule and frankly probably more a of product of being desperate to fix the D-line. With that said he did hang on to Nick Harper till we had better players even with his off the field issues. I think Polian was willing to put up with some character issues as long as it didn't impact the product on the field or the chemistry in the lockerroom. Those were the players I think he wanted to avoid.

[Superman]

Polian had too much of an ego to make a trade. He believed if he didn't draft a player he would not make a trade for him. Besides, Davis is a talented,aggressive corner who isn't a smaller type - hardly the type of player Polian favored for the Colts.

I'm just quoting this to get back to what my original point was here in this thread. Maybe the bolded portion became true as time went on (of course we'll need to distinguish between Bill and Chris in order to really tell), but Polian made a number of trades. And maybe you were just being facetious. All I was trying to point out to begin with is that Polian made a similar trade to the Davis trade in his first year here.

[mark5362]

Yeah maybe so, but Polian RARELY if ever took a chance at a guy with a few character issues.

True.

[GoColts8818]

without trying to dive back into the rather Polian would or wouldn't or did debate I just look at this why does it matter? He's not here anymore. Rather he would or not doesn't really matter. Why do people keep feeling the need to dig Polian back up just so they can try to kick him one more time? It's not enough that he lost the job now people feel the need to ask hypothetical questions in attempt to go after him. Look I'll admit towards the end rather it was him or Chris or some combination of the two it wasn't working anymore and a change needed to be made and it's been made. Alright let's let it go and move on. I will be so thankful once real games start maybe then we will get focused on what is going on with the team rather than having to try to kick people who aren't here anymore one last time just because some fans don't like them.

[Superman]

Yeah maybe so, but Polian RARELY if ever took a chance at a guy with a few character issues.

Was your question about what we gave up, or more about the player's character issues?

[FireJimCaldwell]

I remember back in 2004.. Tons of fans wanted the team to sign Warren Sapp. Fit the system, knew the system, had a few years left in him.

The only problem was $.

To get him, the Raiders gave the 31-year-old Sapp a seven-year, $36 million contract with a roughly $6 million signing bonus.

Now, one could argue that they could have forced it to work.. He ended up only playing 4 years in Oakland and didn't see the entire 36 million.

A lot of times a GM's hands are tied... I'm sure there are deals that Polian would want to make that he couldn't for one reason or another.. You also have to have a dance partner and you don't want them stepping all over your feet. Trades for pure talent in the NFL are fairly rare. So are signings.

http://content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/football/nfl/salaries/player/Warren-Sapp

[StewieG]

Was your question about what we gave up, or more about the player's character issues?

My OP was mainly about character issues. If Vontae had no character issues, Polian MAYBE makes the trade, but with the character issues it is unlikely he makes the trade.

I know Corey Simon and Ed Johnson, but we were beyond desperate at those positions and the moves we did there proved it. And yes I know we are pretty desperate at the CB position, but I still just don't see Polian doing this.

[Superman]

My OP was mainly about character issues. If Vontae had no character issues, Polian MAYBE makes the trade, but with the character issues it is unlikely he makes the trade.

I know Corey Simon and Ed Johnson, but we were beyond desperate at those positions and the moves we did there proved it. And yes I know we are pretty desperate at the CB position, but I still just don't see Polian doing this.

Ah.

[StewieG]

Ah.

I guess I should have clarified this 4 pages ago lol.

[Superman]

I guess I should have clarified this 4 pages ago lol.

No big. Any given thread on this board has about a 50% chance of turning into a Polian argument. Needless to say, when you put his name in the title, this is the road you're headed down.

[Fatboyslim11]

Ah.

Ah, indeed.

[Steagles]

Who cares? He's no longer around. Grigson knows Pagano can whip him into shape and hopefully we stole a great player.

[StewieG]

No big. Any given thread on this board has about a 50% chance of turning into a Polian argument. Needless to say, when you put his name in the title, this is the road you're headed down.

I understand. I just thought it would be a good topic because of the fact Polian never (outside a couple players) really wanted anyone with any kind of character flaws. I think Grigson is more willing to risk.

[bayone]

Just adding this for reference purposes...

Trades during Polian's first 5 years. This was taken from the 2009 Media guide, and it lists the player that was taken with the draft picks that were traded.

1997

• 12/22 D3-98 (62) to Carolina for BILL POLIAN, Car-DE-CHUCK WILEY.
  

.

1998

• 2/17 QB-JIM HARBAUGH, D4-98 (93) to Baltimore for D3-98 (71), D4-98 (103). Colts-WR-E.G. GREEN. Ravens traded D4-98
  
• 3/26 QB-PAUL JUSTIN to Cincinnati for D5-98 (135). Colts-LB ANTONY JORDAN.
  
• 4/19 D4-98 (103-Bal.), D5-98 (124), D6-98 (154) to Baltimore for D4-98 (93-Ind.), Colts-OG-STEVE McKINNEY. Bal-DTCHASE MARTIN, LB-RON ROGERS, dealt D4-98 (103).
  
• 7/23 D2-99 (34) to Carolina for DB-TYRONE POOLE. Car-TCHRIS TERRY.
  
• 8/30 D5-99 (136) to Pittsburgh for DL-STEVEN CONLEY. Pit-TEJERAME TUMAN.
  
• 8/30 TE-SCOTT SLUTZKER to New Orleans for LB-ANDRE ROYAL.
  

1999 (2)

• 4/15 RB-MARSHALL FAULK to St. Louis for D2-99 (36), D5-99 (138). Colts-LB-MIKE PETERSON, DE-BRAD SCIOLI.
  
• 4/18 D4-99 (99), D6-99 (171) to San Francisco for D4-99 (96). Colts-DB-PAUL MIRANDA. S.F.-DB-ANTHONY PARKER, WR-TAI STREETS.
  

2000

• 4/16 D5-00 (158), D6-00 (195) to New Orleans for D5-00 (138). Colts-OG-MATT JOHNSON. N.O.-TE-AUSTIN WHEATLEY, DB-MICHAEL HAWTHORNE.
  
• 4/16 D6-01 (184) to Oakland for D7-00 (238). Colts-DB RODREGIS BROOKS. Oak-DT-CHRIS COOPER.
  
• 4/21 LB-SPENCER REID to Carolina for RB-FRED LANE.
  
• 8/22 P-JOHN BAKER to St. Louis for D6-02 (204). Colts-RB BRIAN ALLEN.
  

2001 (2)

• 4/21 D1-01 (22) to N.Y. Giants for D1-01 (30), D3-01 (91), D6-01 (193). Colts-WR-REGGIE WAYNE, DB-CORY BIRD, DB JASON DOERING. NYG-DB-WILL ALLEN.
  
• 4/21 D2-01 (52), D3-01 (81) to Dallas for D2-01 (37). Colts-DB IDREES BASHIR. Dallas dealt picks.
  

2002 (4)

• 4/15 WR-TERRENCE WILKINS to St. Louis for D6-02 (183). Colts-DB-JAMES LEWIS.
  
• 4/19 D5-02 (146) to Seattle for QB-BROCK HUARD. Seahawks-DT-ROCKY BERNARD.
  
• 9/ 1 D7-03 (239) to New Orleans for RB-RICKY WILLIAMS. New Orleans dealt pick.
  
• 9/24 D7-04 (228) to Tampa Bay for DB-DAVID GIBSON. TB-RBCASEY CRAMER.
  

So Polian traded the 1999 2nd round pick for Tyrone Poole.

Poole was a 22nd pick in the 1st round in the 1995 draft, so 1998 was his 4th year.

Davis was a 25th pick in the 1st round in the 2009 draft. so 2012 will be his 4th year.

Davis had more int's in his first 3 years, 9 to 5.

Poole had more tackles in his first 3 years 164 to 127

Poole had more forced fumbles 4 to 1, and recovers 3 to 0

Considering the shift the NFL has taken to more of a passing league the #'s appear to level out.

Lot of work went into the above

[FireJimCaldwell]

Lot of work went into the above

Thanks but it wasn't that bad.

Most of it was copy & paste, though coming out of a PDF of a 2009 media guide, I did have to format it a little different...

A lot more work goes into a lot of the articles you post.. Just had to say that those are appreciated by some. Not all. But some. Thank you.

[bayone]

Thanks but it wasn't that bad.

Most of it was copy & paste, though coming out of a PDF of a 2009 media guide, I did have to format it a little different...

A lot more work goes into a lot of the articles you post.. Just had to say that those are appreciated by some. Not all. But some. Thank you.

whatever anyone can add, no matter who, if someone gains by ones work it's worth it, Have a great day

[Jay Kirk]

Once again will use this one,seen the STL CARDNALS trade for Jim Edmonds ,same knock on him,but all in all best centerfielder ive ever seen,he deffinatley wasnt lazy,Polian isnt here and for a good reason,Why dont we all set back and give these people a chance and quit whining till theres a reason to wine,Would you all like some CHEESE TO GO WITH IT????????

[BrentMc11]

Once again will use this one,seen the STL CARDNALS trade for Jim Edmonds ,same knock on him,but all in all best centerfielder ive ever seen,he deffinatley wasnt lazy,Polian isnt here and for a good reason,Why dont we all set back and give these people a chance and quit whining till theres a reason to wine,Would you all like some CHEESE TO GO WITH IT????????

HMMMM! What zipcode is Bill in again? I loved watching Edmonds in CF....even later with the Cubs....never lost his fielding!!

[StewieG]

Thanks but it wasn't that bad.

Most of it was copy & paste, though coming out of a PDF of a 2009 media guide, I did have to format it a little different...

A lot more work goes into a lot of the articles you post.. Just had to say that those are appreciated by some. Not all. But some. Thank you.

Do you coach, or have you ever coached before? Just wondering because your knowledge of football is very good.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Do you coach, or have you ever coached before? Just wondering because your knowledge of football is very good.

I've dabbled in it..