My Numbers Say We Are In Really Good Cap Shape For 2012

[Scipio]

My personal opinion is this - IF Manning is "Healthy" enough for Irsay by Mar 8th, he will get the 28m. Then will restructure after the new NFL year starts to help the Colts for future cap situations (2013+)

[UndecidedFrog]

Glad there are people on this board who understand the cap and are willing to try and help the others understand. Thanks for that!

In your opinion for Peyton to stay with the Colts, what is the best route for the Colts cap wise? Would it be a restructure? Or something else?

I would say it would require PM to agree to:

1) forego the option bonus payment of $28 due March 8; get released and re-sign to

2) $5MM for 2012, structured as a combination of straight salary and LTBE (likely to be earned) incentives such as # games played, and

3) $10MM for each year structured similarly, with every year renewed at the option of management.

With the above structure, the team salary cap will be alleviated somewhat:

2012: current: $17 ; proposed: $15.4 , net savings of $1.6 to the cap

2013: current: $18; proposed: $10, net savings of $8 to the cap

2014: current $19; proposed $10, net savings of $9 to the cap

2015: current $20; proposed $10, net savings of $10 to the cap

Additional benefit to the Colts, increased flexibility to cut PM if his performance ability diminishes on a year to year basis.

However, Peyton and his agent will be looking at this from a real dollars perspective.

Current contract through 2015 = $63.6, of which $35.4 in 2012, and additional $8.4, $9.4 and $10.4 in the outer years

Proposed contract through 2015 (if the Colts keep him that long) = $35, of which $5 in 2012, and addition $10, 10, 10 in the outer years

That is why the current contract is considered "front-loaded".

[UndecidedFrog]

My personal opinion is this - IF Manning is "Healthy" enough for Irsay by Mar 8th, he will get the 28m. Then will restructure after the new NFL year starts to help the Colts for future cap situations (2013+)

Once the option bonus payment of $28 is paid, there is very little room to flex to help the cap.

[Scipio]

Once the option bonus payment of $28 is paid, there is very little room to flex to help the cap.

I agree not for 2012, I was more speaking toward 2013+

[FireJimCaldwell]

I agree not for 2012, I was more speaking toward 2013+

It's basically the same thing, Once the option bonus is paid, the only thing he could really restructure would be his base salaries to lower the cap# in any given year.

[UndecidedFrog]

I agree not for 2012, I was more speaking toward 2013+

I don't think you understand me.

If the Colts pays the $28MM and then release him to sign a different contract, the consequences of releasing him will trigger a $38.4MM hit to the 2012 cap, or about 32% of the total team cap. This will effectively gut the team.

If the Colts try to renegotiate the current deal after paying the $28MM, you will have to show me how. I think you need to see the cap hits of the current deal to understand how little room there is after the option bonus is paid:

2012: $17MM = $4 pro-rated portion of signing bonus paid in 2011 + $5.6 pro-rated portion of option bonus + 7.4 salary for 2012

2013: $18MM = $4 pro-rated portion of signing bonus paid in 2011 + $5.6 pro-rated portion of option bonus + 8.4 salary for 2013

2014: $17MM = $4 pro-rated portion of signing bonus paid in 2011 + $5.6 pro-rated portion of option bonus + 9.4 salary for 2014

2015: $17MM = $4 pro-rated portion of signing bonus paid in 2011 + $5.6 pro-rated portion of option bonus + 10.4 salary for 2015

Once you pay the option bonus, the pro-rated portions become set in stone unless the accelerate forward due to a termination event (cut/retirement) earlier than expiry, which will hit the cap the year of such event.

[Scipio]

So the best course (for the Colts) would be to cut him and then re-sign him, Unless Irsay is fine with the current contract.

[UndecidedFrog]

So the best course (for the Colts) would be to cut him and then re-sign him, Unless Irsay is fine with the current contract.

I see 3 options:

1) Don't pay the option bonus, Cut PM, don't re-sign him.

2) Don't pay the option bonus, Cut PM, re-sign him to a more cap friendly contract, if PM agrees to it.

3) Pay the option bonus, and keep PM on the current contract.

If PM does not agree in option 2, we only have options 1 and 3.

The best option will be up to Mr. Irsay to determine based on his perception of PM's arm.

[husker61]

frog, no comments about the polian comment about manning throwing the ball a month and a half ago?

sorry to dissapoint you and your excuses as to why he won't be a colt next year. he will be back just like i have been saying all along.

[UndecidedFrog]

frog, no comments about the polian comment about manning throwing the ball a month and a half ago?

sorry to dissapoint you and your excuses as to why he won't be a colt next year. he will be back just like i have been saying all along.

You have a right to your beliefs. Far be it for me to attempt to convince you otherwise.

I try not to comment on reports from people who do not quote Irsay or Manning in this matter. To me, it is all spin and gossip until I hear quotes from either Manning or Irsay or Condon or the docs, trainers, and coaches that oversee Manning's rehab.

No excuses necessary, I accept your apology.

[BmoreColt]

You have a right to your beliefs. Far be it for me to attempt to convince you otherwise.

I try not to comment on reports from people who do not quote Irsay or Manning in this matter. To me, it is all spin and gossip until I hear quotes from either Manning or Irsay or Condon or the docs, trainers, and coaches that oversee Manning's rehab.

No excuses necessary, I accept your apology.

You can't be serious. You started a blog about how it's sad that people don't like luck. So what that you do good statistics, you are all about luck period. You just recently joined and if Peyton stays you will soon disappear from the forum.

[husker61]

frog, are you a politician?

[WSO]

You can't be serious. You started a blog about how it's sad that people don't like luck. So what that you do good statistics, you are all about luck period. You just recently joined and if Peyton stays you will soon disappear from the forum.

Just because someone is Pro-Luck does not mean they are anti-Manning.

[UndecidedFrog]

You can't be serious. You started a blog about how it's sad that people don't like luck. So what that you do good statistics, you are all about luck period. You just recently joined and if Peyton stays you will soon disappear from the forum.

I guess you totally missed the point of my blog.

http://blogs.colts.com/2012/02/08/misguided-fans-in-their-effort-to-save-peyton-disrespects-andrew-luck/#comments

My blog was about how some misguided fans, in their efforts to save Peyton, disrespected Luck.

I think the behavior I noted in my blog is one that Colts fans should be rightly ashamed of.

Thank you for kindly sharing your input and your concerns.

[UndecidedFrog]

frog, are you a politician?

No, I am not a politician.

[BmoreColt]

Just because someone is Pro-Luck does not mean they are anti-Manning.

Frog is anti Manning. Check all his little STASTICALLY speaking stuff, and it's all against PM. FALL BACK!

[husker61]

Just because someone is Pro-Luck does not mean they are anti-Manning.

true, but frog has been making excuses for anything positive about manning to say manning won't be back the whole time he has been here.

[WSO]

Frog is anti Manning. Check all his little STASTICALLY speaking stuff, and it's all against PM. FALL BACK!

true, but frog has been making excuses for anything positive about manning to say manning won't be back the whole time he has been here.

Because when you look at the numbers, it really doesn't look like Manning will be back...just my 2 cents

[UndecidedFrog]

true, but frog has been making excuses for anything positive about manning to say manning won't be back the whole time he has been here.

You are mistaken. I have given you the same reasons why I do not accept any gossip about Manning's rehab unless it is from one of these sources:

1) Manning

2) Irsay

3) Condon

4) the docs, trainers and coaches who oversee Manning's rehab.

[BmoreColt]

I guess you totally missed the point of my blog.

http://blogs.colts.com/2012/02/08/misguided-fans-in-their-effort-to-save-peyton-disrespects-andrew-luck/#comments

My blog was about how some misguided fans, in their efforts to save Peyton, disrespected Luck.

I think the behavior I noted in my blog is one that Colts fans should be rightly ashamed of.

Thank you for kindly sharing your input and your concerns.

Nobody has to respect Luck! He has done

Nothing in the NFL! He is not a member of the colts. Nobody has to respect him. What is the premis of such a blog, obviously how much you like luck and that's ok, but you are beyond a manning basher.

[BmoreColt]

Because when you look at the numbers, it really doesn't look like Manning will be back...just my 2 cents

That might be true, but he doesn't miss an opportunity to knock a manning rumor that is positive, yet he is always saying how credible a anti manning rumor is credible. And henjustbsaid he only goes by irsay and manning which means he is being hypocritical!

[Ramblinwreck7]

You have a right to your beliefs. Far be it for me to attempt to convince you otherwise.

I try not to comment on reports from people who do not quote Irsay or Manning in this matter. To me, it is all spin and gossip until I hear quotes from either Manning or Irsay or Condon or the docs, trainers, and coaches that oversee Manning's rehab.

No excuses necessary, I accept your apology.

I would think that Bill Polian knew far more about Peyton Manning's recovery than Jim Irsay did until he was fired.

[UndecidedFrog]

Frog is anti Manning. Check all his little STASTICALLY speaking stuff, and it's all against PM. FALL BACK!

I have provided accurate statistics and independent studies done on:

1) The age/performance correlation of NFL QBs.

http://forums.colts.com/index.php?/topic/5211-statistical-studies-on-ageperformance-of-nfl-qbs/

2) The age of great QBs who retired or should have retired based on declining performance.

http://forums.colts.com/index.php?/topic/5234-the-decline-and-retirement-age-of-great-nfl-qbs/

These studies provide good evidence to support their conclusions.

If you have like studies of similar quality that show different conclusions, I shall be happy to review them.

[UndecidedFrog]

I would think that Bill Polian knew far more about Peyton Manning's recovery than Jim Irsay did until he was fired.

Bill Polian isn't the one making the decision on the payment or non-payment of the $28MM option bonus due March 8.

[husker61]

You are mistaken. I have given you the same reasons why I do not accept any gossip about Manning's rehab unless it is from one of these sources:

1) Manning

2) Irsay

3) Condon

4) the docs, trainers and coaches who oversee Manning's rehab.

and polian wasn't overseeing his recovery when he was with the colts???

i guess irsay is a better judge of talent than one of the best gm's in the history of the nfl. i remember how bad the colts were when he was the colt gm. hey, maybe some team will take your advise and have a doctor evaluate qb's throwing ability.

your excuses are just plain silly now.

[BmoreColt]

I have provided accurate statistics and independent studies done on:

1) The age/performance correlation of NFL QBs.

http://forums.colts.com/index.php?/topic/5211-statistical-studies-on-ageperformance-of-nfl-qbs/

2) The age of great QBs who retired or should have retired based on declining performance.

http://forums.colts.com/index.php?/topic/5234-the-decline-and-retirement-age-of-great-nfl-qbs/

These studies provide good evidence to support their conclusions.

If you have like studies of similar quality that show different conclusions, I shall be happy to review them.

Frog, you may be a college kid yourself and excell in STASTICS, I do not have the time nor the desire to calculate these numbers. Your STASTICS are numbers, usually solid and correct, but they lack emotion, heart, and intangibles that numbers cannot measure. Stats don't always tell the whole story.

[Ramblinwreck7]

Nobody has to respect Luck! He has done

Nothing in the NFL! He is not a member of the colts. Nobody has to respect him. What is the premis of such a blog, obviously how much you like luck and that's ok, but you are beyond a manning basher.

For some reason Frog thinks that Andrew Luck is a member of the Indianapolis colts, that's why he thinks it's disrespectful when people don't want him over other scenarios.

[Ramblinwreck7]

Bill Polian isn't the one making the decision on the payment or non-payment of the $28MM option bonus due March 8.

Hey, I'm not the one ignoring Polian's first hand experience up until he was fired.

[UndecidedFrog]

For some reason Frog thinks that Andrew Luck is a member of the Indianapolis colts, that's why he thinks it's disrespectful when people don't want him over other scenarios.

For obvious reasons, I think that it does not benefit the Colts to have its fans disrespect a draft prospect that the Colts are considering with the #1 overall pick.

For obvious reasons, it is not in the best interest of the Colts to have their fans claim "Who needs Luck when we have Manning" such that it provides any impetus to Luck to provide an Eli-Manning-like statement to the Colts, thereby eliminating an option that the Colts might want to take.

[BmoreColt]

For some reason Frog thinks that Andrew Luck is a member of the Indianapolis colts, that's why he thinks it's disrespectful when people don't want him over other scenarios.

He is on some kind of a mission to convince people luck is the only possible answer, and how manning has to go. Bet he won't do a mock though, he just does cap hits from manning, and stats on Manning's decline, stats on how qb's suck as they age, stats on how gray top qb draft picks are. He has stats for days on why luck is the answer.

[BmoreColt]

For obvious reasons, I think that it does not benefit the Colts to have its fans disrespect a draft prospect that the Colts are considering with the #1 overall pick.

For obvious reasons, it is not in the best interest of the Colts to have their fans claim "Who needs Luck when we have Manning" such that it provides any impetus to Luck to provide an Eli-Manning-like statement to the Colts, thereby eliminating an option that the Colts might want to take.

Who cares about Lucks feelings! He doesn't care about yours, he doesn't card about anything other than the money he is going to make. If manning is healthy who needs luck? You act like luck is proven in the nfl. You need to relax with this stuff.

[husker61]

For obvious reasons, I think that it does not benefit the Colts to have its fans disrespect a draft prospect that the Colts are considering with the #1 overall pick.

For obvious reasons, it is not in the best interest of the Colts to have their fans claim "Who needs Luck when we have Manning" such that it provides any impetus to Luck to provide an Eli-Manning-like statement to the Colts, thereby eliminating an option that the Colts might want to take.

but it's ok to disrespect manning, one of the greatest of all time??????

this is just comical.

keep digging!!

[UndecidedFrog]

I agree not for 2012, I was more speaking toward 2013+

Sorry, here are the right numbers:

don't think you understand me.

If the Colts pays the $28MM and then release him to sign a different contract, the consequences of releasing him will trigger a $38.4MM hit to the 2012 cap, or about 32% of the total team cap. This will effectively gut the team.

If the Colts try to renegotiate the current deal after paying the $28MM, you will have to show me how. I think you need to see the cap hits of the current deal to understand how little room there is after the option bonus is paid:

2012: $17MM = $4 pro-rated portion of signing bonus paid in 2011 + $5.6 pro-rated portion of option bonus + 7.4 salary for 2012

2013: $18MM = $4 pro-rated portion of signing bonus paid in 2011 + $5.6 pro-rated portion of option bonus + 8.4 salary for 2013

2014: $19MM = $4 pro-rated portion of signing bonus paid in 2011 + $5.6 pro-rated portion of option bonus + 9.4 salary for 2014

2015: $20MM = $4 pro-rated portion of signing bonus paid in 2011 + $5.6 pro-rated portion of option bonus + 10.4 salary for 2015

Once you pay the option bonus, the pro-rated portions become set in stone unless the accelerate forward due to a termination event (cut/retirement) earlier than expiry, which will hit the cap the year of such event.

[GoColts8818]

but it's ok to disrespect manning, one of the greatest of all time??????

this is just comical.

keep digging!!

Who said it was okay to disrespect Peyton? Why do we have to disrespect either one?

I respect Peyton becuase he's one of the best of all time and for what he's done for my town and my franchise and for doing it the right away.

I respect Luck for what he has done in college and for how is handling himself right now. I respect RG3 for the same reasons.

I think you can respect all three and just because you respect one doesn't mean you disrespect one of the others. I am not saying you did this but I've seen a lot of people who jump down people throats who say we should draft Luck as it some how means that person doesn't want Peyton Mannng here anymore and how dare someone suggest we draft Luck.

Personally I want Manning here next year and I want Luck. I am willing to look at things though and realize it's probably at best 50/50 Manning is back next season and if he's not I'd hate to see him go but Luck isn't exactly a bad fall back plan. There is nothing wrong with someone saying man I want Manning but I don't think he's going to be here next year so I am cool with us having Luck. It doesn't mean that person wants Luck over Manning and it sure as heck doesn't mean that person thinks Luck is better than Manning which some have turned that into.

Again I want to be clear I am not saying you've been one of those people just kinda got going on that because of this thread.

[husker61]

Who said it was okay to disrespect Peyton? Why do we have to disrespect either one?

I respect Peyton becuase he's one of the best of all time and for what he's done for my town and my franchise and for doing it the right away.

I respect Luck for what he has done in college and for how is handling himself right now. I respect RG3 for the same reasons.

I think you can respect all three and just because you respect one doesn't mean you disrespect one of the others. I am not saying you did this but I've seen a lot of people who jump down people throats who say we should draft Luck as it some how means that person doesn't want Peyton Mannng here anymore and how dare someone suggest we draft Luck.

Personally I want Manning here next year and I want Luck. I am willing to look at things though and realize it's probably at best 50/50 Manning is back next season and if he's not I'd hate to see him go but Luck isn't exactly a bad fall back plan. There is nothing wrong with someone saying man I want Manning but I don't think he's going to be here next year so I am cool with us having Luck. It doesn't mean that person wants Luck over Manning and it sure as heck doesn't mean that person thinks Luck is better than Manning which some have turned that into.

Again I want to be clear I am not saying you've been one of those people just kinda got going on that because of this thread.

i was directly responding to frog's post. i havent said anything bad about luck. i hope other teams think he is the next comming and give the colts a boatload of picks for him.

[GoColts8818]

i was directly responding to frog's post. i havent said anything bad about luck. i hope other teams think he is the next comming and give the colts a boatload of picks for him.

Nor did I say you did.

I am just asking the general question of why do we have to disrespect anyone? I mean I read Frog's post and I didn't see him disrespecting Peyton at least to me. I think he was getting at what I was saying. Some people, again I am NOT saying you are one of these people, seem to think that suggesting that they would be okay with having Luck here next year because of everything that is going on with Peyton is some how disrespecting Peyton Manning. I don't think that's the case. I think it's just people understanding that Peyton Manning is anything but a sure bet right now. I've yet to see one person who has said if both are 100% healthy next year that they want Luck over Manning and I don't think we are going to find anyone who feels that way yet people are being treated like they said that.

Also Irsay has said we aren't trading the pick and has yet to do anything to show he's even thinking about chainging his mind on that. In fact the people covering this have said that's the one sure bet in this we aren't trading the pick. The only people who seem to keep bringing that up are the fans.

[Ramblinwreck7]

For obvious reasons, I think that it does not benefit the Colts to have its fans disrespect a draft prospect that the Colts are considering with the #1 overall pick.

For obvious reasons, it is not in the best interest of the Colts to have their fans claim "Who needs Luck when we have Manning" such that it provides any impetus to Luck to provide an Eli-Manning-like statement to the Colts, thereby eliminating an option that the Colts might want to take.

Since you know that I want the colts to trade the #1 pick, I don't mind that scenario. Andrew Luck nor his father might not want to be put in this situation, regardless if the fans want him or not.

[UndecidedFrog]

Since you know that I want the colts to trade the #1 pick, I don't mind that scenario. Andrew Luck nor his father might not want to be put in this situation, regardless if the fans want him or not.

I know you don't mind that scenario. However, I think I would rather have the Colts make their decisions with all the options that they have available. I doubt very much the Colts would appreciate any of their fans to remove any of their options. That would be working against the Colts, and I doubt any true fan of the Colts would want to do that.

[Ramblinwreck7]

I know you don't mind that scenario. However, I think I would rather have the Colts make their decisions with all the options that they have available. I doubt very much the Colts would appreciate any of their fans to remove any of their options. That would be working against the Colts, and I doubt any true fan of the Colts would want to do that.

I've been wanting to post something about this for a while, but how can you actually be a fan of a team just because of it's geography. You don't go to games to watch Jim Irsay's team play, you go to watch the colts players play, guys like Peyton Manning, Dwight Freeney, Marvin Harrison, and Bob Sanders a few years ago. That's how you get close to a team, is by getting to know and love the players. I don't like the colts because they are situated in Indianapolis, Indiana, I like them because my favorite players play there. Peyton Manning is the only reason I ever became a colts fan. Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, and Terrel Suggs are the only reasons I became a fan of the Raven's, mainly because of their defense.

That's a big reason why I consider getting rid of Peyton Manning and drafting Andrew Luck to be working against the colts, I didn't think any true colts fan would want to do that.

[UndecidedFrog]

I've been wanting to post something about this for a while, but how can you actually be a fan of a team just because of it's geography. You don't go to games to watch Jim Irsay's team play, you go to watch the colts players play, guys like Peyton Manning, Dwight Freeney, Marvin Harrison, and Bob Sanders a few years ago. That's how you get close to a team, is by getting to know and love the players. I don't like the colts because they are situated in Indianapolis, Indiana, I like them because my favorite players play there. Peyton Manning is the only reason I ever became a colts fan. Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, and Terrel Suggs are the only reasons I became a fan of the Raven's, mainly because of their defense.

That's a big reason why I consider getting rid of Peyton Manning and drafting Andrew Luck to be working against the colts, I didn't think any true colts fan would want to do that.

Thanks for sharing.

From what I understand of your post above, you are a Peyton Manning, Dwight Freeney, Marvin Harrison, and Bob Sanders fan.

What happened when Marvin Harrison left the Colts? Did you become less of a Colts fan?

What will happen when all of them leave the Colts? Will you still remain a Colts fan?

Yes, the team is comprised of its players. However, no one player, or even a set of players is bigger than the team.

The Colts existed before any of the players you mentioned were born, and the Colts will continue to exist way after they retire.

A true Colts fan understands this, and will not work against the team in favor of any one player on the team.