Colts rookies given haircuts by Colts Veterans

[Valpo2004]

I was watching Hard Knocks last night, and it showed William Moore's lavish house, while at the same time cutting away to rookie 4th rounder Davonte Freeman looking for a modest apartment. So I wondered what kind of contract Freeman got. He received a $484k signing bonus. After taxes and agent fees and union dues and whatnot, that's probably $200k in his pocket.

I'm not saying it doesn't hurt to drop a few grand on the rookie dinner, but they're not being broken by it. And according to your post, we're talking about the guys who got the biggest bonuses handling most of the bill.

Funny story: http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2014/06/evan_mathis_6405576_rookie_haz.html

 

True enough, it's not killing them.  But I tend to think that they should bank that signing bonus as well as a majority of their salary.

[ruksak]

I agree with you on misguided bonding but really?  You are comparing shaving designs in a rookie's hair with gang members beating a new member to a pulp?  I make some giant leaps on this board but that one is beyond me.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tag/nfl-fan-violence

 

I wasn't making a direct compare between head shaving and gang violence, no. I was pointing toward similarities between sports cultures and gang cultures, and they are apparent if you're willing to look. 

[Valpo2004]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tag/nfl-fan-violence

 

I wasn't making a direct compare between head shaving and gang violence, no. I was pointing toward similarities between sports cultures and gang cultures, and they are apparent if you're willing to look. 

 

Except for the most important difference regarding the legality of what they are doing and the level of violence.

 

And fan violence is pretty sparse if you ask me.  You shove 70,000 people in one small area and a fight is likely to break out somewhere that's just a statistical reality.  Especially when you are mixing in alcohol that is served at stadiums.  Honestly having 70,000 people in one area like that and only having 1 fight between two people is honestly a positive note on the security in and around the stadium and the self control of the majority of fans.  

 

On any given weekend you probably see a lot more violence in bars.  

 

I don't think comparing it to gang culture is much better then comparing professional athletes to slaves on an antebellum southern plantation.  Yes people have made that comparison. . . but the problem is that the most important aspects of it. . . The fact that they are paid, and what they are being paid to do. . . and oh yeah HOW MUCH they are paid make the comparisons bad.

[ruksak]

What about rookies buying dinner?

Why is anyone being asked/expected to buy dinner? 

 

I guess would be my response. To answer you directly....

 

I don't support any activity that puts pressure on a player to succumb. If a rookie is excited that he got his big contract signed and he wants to treat the O-line (whomever) to a dinner, sure. But to pressure a guy to do it, no. 

 

I'll say this again and await a proper response; If you (personally) would not support said behavior at YOUR workplace, than I would call said behavior inappropriate. It's not enough to spout-off that the NFL isn't a "normal" workplace, unless someone can intelligibly relate to me exactly what a "normal" workplace is, specifically. 

[ruksak]

Except for the most important difference regarding the legality of what they are doing and the level of violence.

 

And fan violence is pretty sparse if you ask me.  You shove 70,000 people in one small area and a fight is likely to break out somewhere that's just a statistical reality.  Especially when you are mixing in alcohol.  

 

On any given weekend you probably see a lot more violence in bars.  

 

Fan violence is quite rampant, actually. Many stadiums deal with violence every week. 

 

To understand my analogy/comparison; You have to ponder the reasons WHY these people are fighting. In a bar, the reasons are many. Looked at a guy the wrong way, stepped on a pimps gator shoes, hit on the wrong girl etc etc etc. 

 

In NFL stands, the primary reason a fan gets targeted is......he/she is wearing the wrong colors. 

[Valpo2004]

Fan violence is quite rampant, actually. Many stadiums deal with violence every week. 

 

To understand my analogy/comparison; You have to ponder the reasons WHY these people are fighting. In a bar, the reasons are many. Looked at a guy the wrong way, stepped on a pimps gator shoes, hit on the wrong girl etc etc etc. 

 

In NFL stands, the primary reason a fan gets targeted is......he/she is wearing the wrong colors. 

 

What difference does it make as to why they are targeted?  Shoot wear wear the wrong campaign buttons or shirt and you might get targeted elsewhere on election day.  

 

Seriously you put that many people in a stadium and you only have to break up a few fights?

 

70,000 people is a lot of people, that's 3 times the size of the town where I grew up and I guarantee that there are a few fights on any given day there, especially on weekends.  And the people in that town have a lot more space then an NFL stadium. 

 

Also gang wars are pretty different.  One drunk guy doesn't like the other dude's team colors and attacks him is very very different from an organized groups of guys trying to outright kill each-other.

 

While everyone in the gang is involved in the gang's wars.  99.9% of the fans arn't involved in attacking opposing fans on game day.

[ruksak]

What difference does it make as to why they are targeted?  Shoot wear wear the wrong campaign buttons or shirt and you might get targeted elsewhere on election day.  

 

Seriously you put that many people in a stadium and you only have to break up a few fights?

 

70,000 people is a lot of people, that's 3 times the size of the town where I grew up and I guarantee that there are a few fights on any given day there, especially on weekends.  And the people in that town have a lot more space then an NFL stadium. 

 

Also gang wars are pretty different.  One drunk guy doesn't like the other dude's team colors and attacks him is very very different from an organized groups of guys trying to outright kill each-other.

 

While everyone in the gang is involved in the gang's wars.  99.9% of the fans arn't involved in attacking opposing fans on game day.

You're concentrating too hard on the act itself, and the inevitability of packing so many diverse peoples into a confined area leading to violence. In doing so, you're not contemplating how bizarre it is that law abiding professionals put themselves into a sports environment and become eager participants in violent confrontations with strangers. 

 

Many of these attacks ARE, in fact, groups of fans for one team isolating a single fan from another team. The most prominent and impactful example of this phenomenon is seen is European and South American soccer stadiums, of course. I'm sure we've all seen that. 

[Superman]

Why is anyone being asked/expected to buy dinner? 

 

I guess would be my response. To answer you directly....

 

I don't support any activity that puts pressure on a player to succumb. If a rookie is excited that he got his big contract signed and he wants to treat the O-line (whomever) to a dinner, sure. But to pressure a guy to do it, no. 

 

I'll say this again and await a proper response; If you (personally) would not support said behavior at YOUR workplace, than I would call said behavior inappropriate. It's not enough to spout-off that the NFL isn't a "normal" workplace, unless someone can intelligibly relate to me exactly what a "normal" workplace is, specifically. 

 

Are you going to answer my question? I'm asking about your viewpoint. Specifically, do you think rookies buying dinner is unacceptable? Would you compare it to gang initiations?

 

As for whether I would support a certain behavior at my workplace, well, if you're going to ignore the very real fact that the NFL is NOT a normal workplace, then I don't know if it's worth it to have the discussion. But, as a member of a sales team, when a new guy got his first big deal, he would buy lunch. So, it doesn't really make a difference, because I don't have a problem with that kind of behavior.

[ruksak]

Are you going to answer my question? I'm asking about your viewpoint. Specifically, do you think rookies buying dinner is unacceptable? Would you compare it to gang initiations?

 

As for whether I would support a certain behavior at my workplace, well, if you're going to ignore the very real fact that the NFL is NOT a normal workplace, then I don't know if it's worth it to have the discussion. But, as a member of a sales team, when a new guy got his first big deal, he would buy lunch. So, it doesn't really make a difference, because I don't have a problem with that kind of behavior.

My answer; (already given) If the payee offers, yes, acceptable. If he is asked? No. Unequivocally, no. It is disrespectful imo to ask another to pay for a 10k dinner, no matter what the means of the prospective payee may be. 

 

 

 

 

 Would you compare it to gang initiations?

 

Only loosely. Only in that the intent is to subjugate the participant as a means to join the group. Only insofar as to indoctrinate a new member of a group through loss, pain, humiliation etc. To this end, the lines can be directly drawn. 

 

 

 

Now......what (exactly) is a "normal" workplace? 

[Superman]

My answer; (already given) If the payee offers, yes, acceptable. If he is asked? No. Unequivocally, no. It is disrespectful imo to ask another to pay for a 10k dinner, no matter what the means of the prospective payee may be. 

 

...

 

Only loosely. Only in that the intent is to subjugate the participant as a means to join the group. Only insofar as to indoctrinate a new member of a group through loss, pain, humiliation etc. To this end, the lines can be directly drawn. 

 

That's cool. I disagree. But that's cool, also. What's weird is making this leap by comparing haircuts and dinners to gang initiations. There may be similarities in function and effect, but they are very, very different. Saying you don't like this form of initiation is fine, but it's a really large leap to jumping in or other forms of gang initiations (which are all illegal, and some of them involved extreme violence).

 

Now......what (exactly) is a "normal" workplace? 

 

Aren't we talking about the kind of work environment that most of us are used to, that we have all been a part of? There are significant differences between the work environments we deal with, and the work environment on an NFL team.

[ruksak]

That's cool. I disagree. But that's cool, also. What's weird is making this leap by comparing haircuts and dinners to gang initiations. There may be similarities in function and effect, but they are very, very different. Saying you don't like this form of initiation is fine, but it's a really large leap to jumping in or other forms of gang initiations (which are all illegal, and some of them involved extreme violence).

 

 

To be clear, I'm not comparing the actions directly, only the psychology of such. The psychology is very similar. Similar attempts could be made to relate sports fandom with religion, which I was forced to ponder when I witnessed a man praying to god for a defensive stop. 

 

 

 

Aren't we talking about the kind of work environment that most of us are used to, that we have all been a part of? There are significant differences between the work environments we deal with, and the work environment on an NFL team.

But what is normal? "We"? 

 

"We" who? My friend that travels the railways across the country as a tech? My relative that is a park ranger? A buddy of mine doing security contracting in Afghanistan? 

 

I would suppose the primary difference between an NFL work environment and any other job, be it exotic or your standard 9-5 fair, would be the fact that these grown men suffer from some semblance of arrested development. In short, they behave as boys, they know nothing different.  

 

If I were to answer my own question, that would be my response. That what differentiates an NFL locker room from any other workplace is that you are surrounded by giant boys, 6'5 little kids who act like alpha males with millions of dollars in their accounts. The immaturity. That's it. Relative to the topic at hand, shaving a guys head for any reason, under any circumstance, is a starkly immature endeavor no matter how you try to slice it. 

 

Hence my issue with this behavior. It's like a signal flare being fired off that only means one thing. "I'm a big kid now". It's an indication to me that our locker room is filled with man-children. 

[Superman]

To be clear, I'm not comparing the actions directly, only the psychology of such. The psychology is very similar. Similar attempts could be made to relate sports fandom with religion, which I was forced to ponder when I witnessed a man praying to god for a defensive stop. 

 

But what is normal? "We"? 

 

"We" who? My friend that travels the railways across the country as a tech? My relative that is a park ranger? A buddy of mine doing security contracting in Afghanistan? 

 

I would suppose the primary difference between an NFL work environment and any other job, be it exotic or your standard 9-5 fair, would be the fact that these grown men suffer from some semblance of arrested development. In short, they behave as boys, they know nothing different.  

 

If I were to answer my own question, that would be my response. That what differentiates an NFL locker room from any other workplace is that you are surrounded by giant boys, 6'5 little kids who act like alpha males with millions of dollars in their accounts. the immaturity. That's it. Relative to the topic at hand, shaving a guys head for any reason, under any circumstance, is a starkly immature endeavor no matter how you try to slice it. 

 

Hence my issue with this behavior. It's like a signal flare being fired off that only means one thing. "I'm a big kid now". It's an indication to me that our locker room is filled with man-children. 

 

No, I disagree very strongly with your idea of what separates the NFL from "normal" workplaces. You're expressing your own judgment of the NFL and the players in it, and that has nothing to do with what makes their environment different. As a matter of fact, spend time on a construction site or in military post, and you'll see a similar "giant kids" atmosphere. (Case in point: Someone else mentioned how the first thing the military does when you report is shave your head. You just called that action "a starkly immature endeavor," "for any reason, under any circumstance." So the perceived immaturity is NOT the point of difference.)

 

What's different is that you have a team of professional athletes who are paid hundreds of thousands of dollars, and lots more, to play sports. They compete against each other in camp and practice, and then go out on Sundays and do physical battle, side by side, against another team of professional athletes. The professionalism, or lack thereof, isn't at issue. It's the fact these players are paid to inflict pain and punishment on each other, then come together and inflict pain and punishment on someone else. It's not normal. They do it for the glory and camaraderie, and if they are not all together, there will be none of either.

 

I don't think haircuts and dinners necessarily engender teamwork, but it has become a rite of passage for some teams. While I don't think it's necessarily beneficial, I definitely don't see it as detrimental behavior. I don't even really see it as a byproduct of immaturity, at least not anymore than any other group of grown men who come together to have a good time. I think it's harmless, and there's a large divide between this kind of behavior and the kind of cruel, mean-spirited hazing that we've heard about in other instances. And even that kind of inappropriate hazing falls well short of gang initiations.

[CroatianColtsFan21]

I would rather have my hair cut than pay 10 K for dinner on the rookie pay scale .

If i remember correctly andrew picked up the tab when he was a rookie, but it was a dinner only for rookies and he was a no.1 pick so all fun and giggles..

There was a video of it on colts.com

[ruksak]

No, I disagree very strongly with your idea of what separates the NFL from "normal" workplaces. You're expressing your own judgment of the NFL and the players in it, and that has nothing to do with what makes their environment different. As a matter of fact, spend time on a construction site or in military post, and you'll see a similar "giant kids" atmosphere. (Case in point: Someone else mentioned how the first thing the military does when you report is shave your head. You just called that action "a starkly immature endeavor," "for any reason, under any circumstance." So the perceived immaturity is NOT the point of difference.)

 

 

In the military they shave their heads for entirely different reasons. When I said "for any reason...." I meant to shave another's head for fun, as part of tradition or indoctrination. Not as part of dress/hygiene codes. 

 

BTW; Military barracks are quite immature, packed with kids acting like ....kids. 

 

 I would be far more impressed by a team's vets doing something positive for the rookies, as opposed to doing something that is, unarguably, meant to humiliate them. How about the vets, many of whom make huge dollars per game, take the rookies out to dinner and pay? Tell me how this is different, in terms of team bonding, than the opposite. I will gladly do so if you cannot. 

[IndyD4U]

I will say that while I'm on the side of the fence where these things are what happens in camp and no harm, no foul. It's nice to actually read a couple of pages from both sides of the argument that offer up respectful responses.

Well played by all participants. It's refreshing to read, especially when more often than not these discussions turn into sarcastic jabs.

[Superman]

In the military they shave their heads for entirely different reasons. When I said "for any reason...." I meant to shave another's head for fun, as part of tradition or indoctrination. Not as part of dress/hygiene codes. 

 

BTW; Military barracks are quite immature, packed with kids acting like ....kids. 

 

 I would be far more impressed by a team's vets doing something positive for the rookies, as opposed to doing something that is, unarguably, meant to humiliate them. How about the vets, many of whom make huge dollars per game, take the rookies out to dinner and pay? Tell me how this is different, in terms of team bonding, than the opposite. I will gladly do so if you cannot. 

 

There's an obvious difference, in terms of leadership by example, mentorship, etc. One engenders respect; the other probably promotes resentment, ironically.

 

Again, I'm not claiming that forced haircuts and dinner are great ways to bond. The vets buying dinner would be far, far better.

[ruksak]

There's an obvious difference, in terms of leadership by example, mentorship, etc. One engenders respect; the other probably promotes resentment, ironically.

 

Again, I'm not claiming that forced haircuts and dinner are great ways to bond. The vets buying dinner would be far, far better.

I believe we've sussed out our opinions well enough. Neither one of us feels this issue is in any way, toward any respect, highly impactful. 

 

The act itself is rather innocuous, and I'll admit that the one positive I could see would be that this sort of activity provides an outlet, a release from the unimaginable stress of trying to make the team. As I'm sure it does. So long as people understand that i'm just pointing to the psychological minutia of such activities, not in any way believing these are serious issues. More-so for conversation, not argument. 

[ruksak]

Well played by all participants. It's refreshing to read, especially when more often than not these discussions turn into sarcastic jabs.

As you well know, some people cannot behave as a gentleman or as a lady. The definition of which would be to behave in a way that conveys respect to those around you. 

[Superman]

I believe we've sussed out our opinions well enough. Neither one of us feels this issue is in any way, toward any respect, highly impactful. 

 

The act itself is rather innocuous, and I'll admit that the one positive I could see would be that this sort of activity provides an outlet, a release from the unimaginable stress of trying to make the team. As I'm sure it does. So long as people understand that i'm just pointing to the psychological minutia of such activities, not in any way believing these are serious issues. More-so for conversation, not argument. 

 

Good points. I was just kind of alarmed by the comparison to gang initiations.

[Valpo2004]

You're concentrating too hard on the act itself, and the inevitability of packing so many diverse peoples into a confined area leading to violence. In doing so, you're not contemplating how bizarre it is that law abiding professionals put themselves into a sports environment and become eager participants in violent confrontations with strangers. 

 

Many of these attacks ARE, in fact, groups of fans for one team isolating a single fan from another team. The most prominent and impactful example of this phenomenon is seen is European and South American soccer stadiums, of course. I'm sure we've all seen that. 

 

True that happens a lot in soccer stadiums in Europe and South America but it's not something that's happening much here.

 

And actually those nations have started getting a much better handle on sports violence from it's peak in the '80's.  It's a much more rare event now. 

 

Law abiding professionals get in bar fights too.  This kind of stuff just happens, it's not a large problem.

[Valpo2004]

I believe we've sussed out our opinions well enough. Neither one of us feels this issue is in any way, toward any respect, highly impactful. 

 

The act itself is rather innocuous, and I'll admit that the one positive I could see would be that this sort of activity provides an outlet, a release from the unimaginable stress of trying to make the team. As I'm sure it does. So long as people understand that i'm just pointing to the psychological minutia of such activities, not in any way believing these are serious issues. More-so for conversation, not argument. 

 

Ok that's fair.  Although I think there is another difference with gang initiations that you are missing.  I don't think the gang "jump in's" are really for the same purpose as a clownish haircut.  A gang jump in I believe the main purpose is proving your toughness and willingness to take a beating on behalf of the gang (since these guys often fight other gangs).  It's a rite of initiation but the gang's have a purpose behind it.

 

The haircut on the other hand is a rite of initiation that mostly is ment to break up the stress of training camp.  

 

As far the whole maturity thing etc. . . I tend to be of the opinion that if it's a group that I'm not in and they arn't clearly abusing people it's not really my place to comment on it.  Another group's traditions are sort of their own business when they arn't abusive or illegal.

 

However as I said because of the possibility of these things getting out of hand it's up to the coaches and team captains to monitor it and keep it within bounds of reason.

[Coffeedrinker]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tag/nfl-fan-violence

 

I wasn't making a direct compare between head shaving and gang violence, no. I was pointing toward similarities between sports cultures and gang cultures, and they are apparent if you're willing to look. 

There are similarities between basic training and gang cultures, too.  Or medical internships to gang cultures.  

 

The difference is intent.  Haircutting is not intended to humiliate or force compliance, it's having a laugh at someone's expense.  Some may think that is cruel but guys, especially guys less than 30 find a friend's embarrassment funny.  Medical internships are designed to make sure someone can handle the rigors of being a doctor where someone's life can literally be in their hands.  Basic training the intent is to get everyone working as a unit because if someone goes lone wolf a lot of people could get killed.

[Warhawk]

I'm as against hazing as anyone, and my fraternity in college made a point of not doing it, but I am for the most part OK with this kind of stuff, because I think the line between hazing and normal initiation stuff is essentially where the enjoyment of the experience derives from (plus whether you can choose to participate).  Stuff like bad haircuts or singing can be a bit awkward & embarrassing at the time, but it's the kind of embarrassing that you can actually say were fun, for you, in hindsight.  Real hazing is something that doesn't seem fun in hindsight, and your enjoyment of the practice or ritual stems from the opportunity to put others through it.

 

Basically, for the person going through it, the question is: Do you feel humiliated?  Probably hazing.  Do you feel a bit sheepish?  Probably not hazing.