Falcons being investigated for piping in crowd noise

[Gramz]

Kraft was speaking out on an issue specific to his team and the handling of that issue by the league. I think what it signifies is that Kraft did not care about public perception at all that is how upset he is with Goodell as it would normally be in poor appearance to call out the league like that. That is why I think that is such bad news for Goodell. Kraft has been his biggest supporter and did call him out at the Super Bowl. My brilliant comment had more to do with the communications side of it in terms of Kraft getting the focus back on the game for his team and showing such strong support for his GM/coach and QB.

Understood.   I agree his actions were more about taking the heat off of his GM/Coach and QB so they could focus on the Super Bowl, and showing that he trusts and believes in them.    I get that.  I knew all along that was the purpose.

 

I still don't agree that it is "bad" news for Goodell, and he has come out and said No Apologies will be given,  nor should they be.

[amfootball]

Understood.   I agree his actions were more about taking the heat off of his GM/Coach and QB so they could focus on the Super Bowl, and showing that he trusts and believes in them.    I get that.  I knew all along that was the purpose.

 

I still don't agree that it is "bad" news for Goodell, and he has come out and said No Apologies will be given,  nor should they be.

Yes, I agree. Kraft will not get an apology. I don't think he said it with the expectation that the league would apologize but more to make statement of how upset he is with the league and to show his team his support.

[csmopar]

No. You know why? Because the owner just OWNED UP TO IT. People are way more forgiving of those who admit their wrong doing than those who deny it.

Ding ding we have a winner. Agree 100%

[Superman]

The issue Kraft has is not with the investigation but how it was handled from a communications stand point with the leaks and failure by the league to make any strong statements and set perimeters which allowed the story to spiral out of control with the Pats looking guilty from the get go. See my post #41 on this issue.

I agree about all the reports. As I said to you before this whole thing got rolling, you will never get the truth from the media. Believe me when I tell you the confusion is intentional coming from every direction. This is how the communications landscape is laid these days. Everything is based on sensationalism and social media is its engine. So called journalists come to us with their “reports” that sound so believable only to be refuted by later “reports.” And this is not just in the sports arena but in politics and economics as well. What truth there is veiled and that is intentional. Everything is leaked, nothing is official and those in the know don’t say a word or provide conflicting statements.

In terms of Goodell, public opinion matters greatly in his position as he is viewed as the ultimate defender of the NFL shield. And of course the public is what funds the billion dollar league. And I would not take the owners publicly praising Goodell as any indication of how they really feel about him. After all he works for them. If they come out and say what a terrible job he is doing then it reflects poorly on them. I do believe that none of them are happy that Super Bowl got usurped by a potential ball deflation story that should have been settled with a couple of days of the AFC title game but somehow has turned into a ridiculous weeks long investigation. I also believe it matters greately that Kraft is not happy with him and publicly called him out from the podium the Monday before the Super Bowl and also did not appear for his state of the league address the following Friday. Kraft is a very influential owner in the league and also led the public charge to defend Goodell when he was making a fool of himself with the Rice situation. We will see where it all ends up when the Wells report comes out but I do believe he is on thin ice. While he has done a good job marketing the sport, everyone knows it is the product on the field that carries the day and any business man worth his salt could continue to steer the revenue ship.

So media and public opinion should be dismissed when talking about the Pats, but not when talking about Goodell...

And again with the idea that the league's success has nothing to do with the man running the league. Despite the ideas that he's implemented having generated more revenue and reach for the league.

Also, I don't think Kraft is as bothered by Goodell as you think, nor do I think he's as influential as you think.

[amfootball]

So media and public opinion should be dismissed when talking about the Pats, but not when talking about Goodell...

And again with the idea that the league's success has nothing to do with the man running the league. Despite the ideas that he's implemented having generated more revenue and reach for the league.

Also, I don't think Kraft is as bothered by Goodell as you think, nor do I think he's as influential as you think.

Public opinion matters greatly when talking about the Pats or Goodell.

 

I never said Goodell had nothing to do with the success of the league. On the contrary, I said he has done a great job marketing it and implementing new things that have made the game more attractive domestically and internationality. The rub here is how he has handled player and team issues. He has been in a word - incompetent. That can't be denied when he had to have himself removed from one case - bountygate and investigated for another Ray Rice. And again, the NFL engine is going to chug along just fine no matter who the commish is as it is the product on the field that sells. Everything else is ornamental.

 

In terms of Kraft, you may be right. Was his speech before the Super Bowl one that expressed his true feelings or more of a motivator for his team to be able to focus on the game? I guess we will find out but his speech defiantly called the league to the carpet. He has never been that critical of anyone or anything that I can think of so I do think he is steaming but much depends how this investigation turns out and also how the other owners are feeling.

[Superman]

Public opinion matters greatly when talking about the Pats or Goodell.

I never said Goodell had nothing to do with the success of the league. On the contrary, I said he has done a great job marketing it and implementing new things that have made the game more attractive domestically and internationality. The rub here is how he has handled player and team issues. He has been in a word - incompetent. That can't be denied when he had to have himself removed from one case - bountygate and investigated for another Ray Rice. And again, the NFL engine is going to chug along just fine no matter who the commish is as it is the product on the field that sells. Everything else is ornamental.

In terms of Kraft, you may be right. Was his speech before the Super Bowl one that expressed his true feelings or more of a motivator for his team to be able to focus on the game? I guess we will find out but his speech defiantly called the league to the carpet. He has never been that critical of anyone or anything that I can think of so I do think he is steaming but much depends how this investigation turns out and also how the other owners are feeling.

You previously decried the role of the media and social media with regard to sensational reporting, saying you'll never get the truth from them. But yet, they matter? I feel like you're playing both sides.

Despite some issues handling disciplinary matters, mostly overblown, if you ask me, the league has continued to grow. Earlier you said that's in spite of Goodell, which is false. And again, the bottom line is the bottom line. Every owner gets richer every year, and that's a reflection on the Commissioner.

Kraft's feelings about this investigation aren't really that important, IMO. Let's talk when one of the owners who aren't being investigated gets huffy about this. When it was Dallas and Washington being penalized for cap violations in 2010, those owners were up in arms. Yet they've both spoken supportively of Goodell through the 2014 season. Too much is made of Kraft's influence here. If the Pats are exonerated, he'll commend the league for getting it right. If the Pats are found guilty, no other owners will be in his corner.

[amfootball]

You previously decried the role of the media and social media with regard to sensational reporting, saying you'll never get the truth from them. But yet, they matter? I feel like you're playing both sides.

Despite some issues handling disciplinary matters, mostly overblown, if you ask me, the league has continued to grow. Earlier you said that's in spite of Goodell, which is false. And again, the bottom line is the bottom line. Every owner gets richer every year, and that's a reflection on the Commissioner.

Kraft's feelings about this investigation aren't really that important, IMO. Let's talk when one of the owners who aren't being investigated gets huffy about this. When it was Dallas and Washington being penalized for cap violations in 2010, those owners were up in arms. Yet they've both spoken supportively of Goodell through the 2014 season. Too much is made of Kraft's influence here. If the Pats are exonerated, he'll commend the league for getting it right. If the Pats are found guilty, no other owners will be in his corner.

Of course the media matters because they influence public opinion. We have had how many threads on this "investigation?" My point has been that we won't get the truth but that does not mean public opinion is unaffected, quite the contrary, which is what has Kraft so steamed about the leaks from the NFL.

 

We can agree to disagree on the Commish's handing of player/team issues. He has been abysmal in my view from spygate to bountygate to Rice to deflategate.

 

In terms of the owners, I don't believe any of them wanted to see the Super Bowl get usurped by a ball air pressure issue and then poor handling from a communications standpoint from the league. This could be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back given the awful year Roger has had or as you say perhaps he smoothes things over with Kraft but I believe he is on thin ice. This investigation and its results will be critical to his tenure moving forward.

[Superman]

Of course the media matters because they influence public opinion. We have had how many threads on this "investigation?" My point has been that we won't get the truth but that does not mean public opinion is unaffected, quite the contrary, which is what has Kraft so steamed about the leaks from the NFL.

We can agree to disagree on the Commish's handing of player/team issues. He has been abysmal in my view from spygate to bountygate to Rice to deflategate.

In terms of the owners, I don't believe any of them wanted to see the Super Bowl get usurped by a ball air pressure issue and then poor handling from a communications standpoint from the league. This could be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back given the awful year Roger has had or as you say perhaps he smoothes things over with Kraft but I believe he is on thin ice. This investigation and its results will be critical to his tenure moving forward.

Explain to me what Goodell did wrong with Bountygate please.

[amfootball]

Explain to me what Goodell did wrong with Bountygate please.

He had himself removed from the case and then his suspensions with over turned.

[Superman]

He had himself removed from the case and then his suspensions with over turned.

How does that mean he did something wrong?

He's accused of being power hungry, so he yields to an independent appeals process. That appeals process determined that Goodell's findings were accurate. The suspensions were vacated for no real reason at all. Tagliabue said the Saints management undermined the investigation, yet he still felt the findings were accurate.

[amfootball]

How does that mean he did something wrong?

He's accused of being power hungry, so he yields to an independent appeals process. That appeals process determined that Goodell's findings were accurate. The suspensions were vacated for no real reason at all. Tagliabue said the Saints management undermined the investigation, yet he still felt the findings were accurate.

You are missing the macro level. What Tagliabue ultimately ruled is irrelevant. Goodell is judge and jury over the NFL yet he recused himself from the player's appeals when it got too heated for him. This would be akin to George Bush admitting he messed up the Iraq war and then calling on President Clinton to clean up his mess.

 

And then of course there was this quote from Jimmy Kennedy who Goodell named as one of his anonymous whistleblowers:

 

This week, the Bountygate case imploded. Goodell sent a memo to all thirty-two teams that his “anonymous whistleblower”, whose existence many doubted, was in fact former Minnesota Vikings defensive tackle Jimmy Kennedy. Not so fast. Kennedy released a statement saying that Goodell was spreading “blatant lies about me, thereby adding me to the list of men whose reputations and character have been irreparably damaged by the shoddy, careless, shameful so-called investigation behind this sham proceeding.”

[Superman]

You are missing the macro level. What Tagliabue ultimately ruled is irrelevant. Goodell is judge and jury over the NFL yet he recused himself from the player's appeals when it got too heated for him. This would be akin to George Bush admitting he messed up the Iraq war and then calling on President Clinton to clean up his mess.

And then of course there was this quote from Jimmy Kennedy who Goodell named as one of his anonymous whistleblowers:

This week, the Bountygate case imploded. Goodell sent a memo to all thirty-two teams that his “anonymous whistleblower”, whose existence many doubted, was in fact former Minnesota Vikings defensive tackle Jimmy Kennedy. Not so fast. Kennedy released a statement saying that Goodell was spreading “blatant lies about me, thereby adding me to the list of men whose reputations and character have been irreparably damaged by the shoddy, careless, shameful so-called investigation behind this sham proceeding.”

It's not like that at all.

Everyone accused Goodell of playing judge, jury and executioner. He yielded to an impartial appeals process, something that is provided for in this country's judicial system, which is the far better parallel. When a court's decision is overruled, that doesn't undermine the court.

Goodell was in a no-win situation. Either go through with years of lawsuits over these suspensions, or let Tagliabue review it. IMO, Tagliabue's decision made zero sense.

Despite the comment from Kennedy, the appeals process confirmed Goodell's initial findings. Then overturned the suspensions on unrelated and specious grounds. 'Yeah, they ran a bounty, but I don't like how management tried to throw them under the bus, so no suspensions.'

If you already have a negative opinion of Goodell, I see how you think he messed up Bountygate. And I know it seems like I'm a Goodell fanboy, but I'm not. He's not very likeable. But he also gets a bad rap, and things like Bountygate are a perfect example. Even Ray Rice, first Goodell was too soft, then he was too harsh and Rice was the victim. Anything to indict Goodell, and it's mostly driven by a hypocritical NFLPA that has positioned itself in strict defiance of Goodell from the very beginning of Smith's tenure, and at every turn, with or without justification.

Meanwhile, everyone involved with the league is making money hand over fist, and the owners are firmly behind Goodell every step of the way.

So while maybe his standing has diminished, I don't think he's in any trouble.

[amfootball]

It's not like that at all.

Everyone accused Goodell of playing judge, jury and executioner. He yielded to an impartial appeals process, something that is provided for in this country's judicial system, which is the far better parallel. When a court's decision is overruled, that doesn't undermine the court.

Goodell was in a no-win situation. Either go through with years of lawsuits over these suspensions, or let Tagliabue review it. IMO, Tagliabue's decision made zero sense.

Despite the comment from Kennedy, the appeals process confirmed Goodell's initial findings. Then overturned the suspensions on unrelated and specious grounds. 'Yeah, they ran a bounty, but I don't like how management tried to throw them under the bus, so no suspensions.'

If you already have a negative opinion of Goodell, I see how you think he messed up Bountygate. And I know it seems like I'm a Goodell fanboy, but I'm not. He's not very likeable. But he also gets a bad rap, and things like Bountygate are a perfect example. Even Ray Rice, first Goodell was too soft, then he was too harsh and Rice was the victim. Anything to indict Goodell, and it's mostly driven by a hypocritical NFLPA that has positioned itself in strict defiance of Goodell from the very beginning of Smith's tenure, and at every turn, with or without justification.

Meanwhile, everyone involved with the league is making money hand over fist, and the owners are firmly behind Goodell every step of the way.

So while maybe his standing has diminished, I don't think he's in any trouble.

Those are all fair points but I have always maintained that where Goodell has failed has been the nuances of the position. He was hired in large part by the owners to clean up the league. This of course ruffled the feathers of the PA understandably. The Pandora's box for Goodell as I have stated before is when he decided that he would take punishments for players away from the legal process and punish for the appearance of evil. He was in the bind he was with Ray Rice because he gave Ben Roethlisberger a six game suspension when he was never charged with rape. Then you have the video of Rice and he looks ridiculous for only giving him a two game suspension and claiming he never saw the second video which led to him having to investigate himself.

 

He never came up with any type of document about player conduct where x offense equals x punishment and therefore he has appeared to be inconsistent and making one ruling less harsh because he was too harsh with a previous offense. This is the cycle of incompetence because he is always compensating and having to adjust for public opinion which as a leader is a lose/lose situation. It is the understanding of the media and how they are a conduit to the public is his biggest failing IMO. As I said to you before, his domestic violence policy is a step in the right direction but he needs to extend that to all forms of mis-behavior so he can appear to be consistent the way he is with the drug policy. Until he does that, the cycle will continue and he will continue to loss credibility and ultimately his position.

[King Colt]

The NFL should also investigate the Colts for the stadium silence when the Colts have the ball. I don't know how the silence machine works but my guess is it operates in similar fashion to the Wayback Machine used on the Rocky & Bullwinkle Show.

[Superman]

Those are all fair points but I have always maintained that where Goodell has failed has been the nuances of the position. He was hired in large part by the owners to clean up the league. This of course ruffled the feathers of the PA understandably. The Pandora's box for Goodell as I have stated before is when he decided that he would take punishments for players away from the legal process and punish for the appearance of evil. He was in the bind he was with Ray Rice because he gave Ben Roethlisberger a six game suspension when he was never charged with rape. Then you have the video of Rice and he looks ridiculous for only giving him a two game suspension and claiming he never saw the second video which led to him having to investigate himself.

 

He never came up with any type of document about player conduct where x offense equals x punishment and therefore he has appeared to be inconsistent and making one ruling less harsh because he was too harsh with a previous offense. This is the cycle of incompetence because he is always compensating and having to adjust for public opinion which as a leader is a lose/lose situation. It is the understanding of the media and how they are a conduit to the public is his biggest failing IMO. As I said to you before, his domestic violence policy is a step in the right direction but he needs to extend that to all forms of mis-behavior so he can appear to be consistent the way he is with the drug policy. Until he does that, the cycle will continue and he will continue to loss credibility and ultimately his position.

 

To the bolded, it's easy to talk in soundbites about this stuff. It's a bit more of a challenge to actually consider all the facts.

 

The prime difference between Rice and Roethlisberger is that one had never been in any kind of trouble, and the other was being accused of sexual assault for the second time in 8 months. It's also noteworthy that Roethlisberger's suspension was ultimately reduced to just four games.

 

I agree that there was an appearance of inconsistency with Goodell's conduct policy. I don't agree that, now that the league has established more definitive guidelines, Goodell is marginalized and/or undermined. I also don't think it's really possible to establish a full range of responses to inappropriate behavior, nor do I think such a policy would take any heat off of him or the league. The NFLPA needs to stop making victims out of the wrongdoers, and the media and fans need to stop accommodating the shifting of blame from criminals to the commissioner. 

[amfootball]

To the bolded, it's easy to talk in soundbites about this stuff. It's a bit more of a challenge to actually consider all the facts.

 

The prime difference between Rice and Roethlisberger is that one had never been in any kind of trouble, and the other was being accused of sexual assault for the second time in 8 months. It's also noteworthy that Roethlisberger's suspension was ultimately reduced to just four games.

 

I agree that there was an appearance of inconsistency with Goodell's conduct policy. I don't agree that, now that the league has established more definitive guidelines, Goodell is marginalized and/or undermined. I also don't think it's really possible to establish a full range of responses to inappropriate behavior, nor do I think such a policy would take any heat off of him or the league. The NFLPA needs to stop making victims out of the wrongdoers, and the media and fans need to stop accommodating the shifting of blame from criminals to the commissioner. 

To the bolded, this is the danger of punishing players for the appearance of evil and which is why I called it a Pandora's box. The range of circumstances surrounding more behavior is vast but I do think Goodell needs to come up with some additional policies for the bigger crimes like he did with domestic violence. The more he can refer back to some type of documentation when ruling the better for him otherwise he will always appear inconsistent and never quell the PA who will always cry foul. Also, the media and the public are never going to change. It is up to him to manage both for the good of the game.

[Superman]

To the bolded, this is the danger of punishing players for the appearance of evil and which is why I called it a Pandora's box. The range of circumstances surrounding more behavior is vast but I do think Goodell needs to come up with some additional policies for the bigger crimes like he did with domestic violence. The more he can refer back to some type of documentation when ruling the better for him otherwise he will always appear inconsistent and never quell the PA who will always cry foul. Also, the media and the public are never going to change. It is up to him to manage both for the good of the game.

 

For the good of the game, he could just throw the book at the players engaged in criminal behavior, but then he gets called "Joe Law." 

[amfootball]

For the good of the game, he could just throw the book at the players engaged in criminal behavior, but then he gets called "Joe Law." 

lol. True. It really is a no win situation. You know one thing we have not talked about is how the league is made of so many players from poor economic backgrounds and tough neighborhoods and single parent homes. Yet these guys are his product. He can't just go around banning everyone as then his product will be diminished. Look at this season as just a microcosm. You had Ray Rice, the top offensive player for the Ravens and then AP for the Vikings, the best RB in the league and then Josh Gordon, one of the top receivers. That is a lot of star power gone in one swoop. Believe me when I tell you I am not a fan of players who perform heinous crimes getting to play and play but something has to be done. I really believe the NFL needs to come up with a program where they reach these guys earlier in the process. Maybe high school level or early college to begin training them and educating them on life issues. Kind of what Dungy did with Michael Vick. Mentoring programs to get to these guys early before they hit the big stage.

[Superman]

lol. True. It really is a no win situation. You know one thing we have not talked about is how the league is made of so many players from poor economic backgrounds and tough neighborhoods and single parent homes. Yet these guys are his product. He can't just go around banning everyone as then his product will be diminished. Look at this season as just a microcosm. You had Ray Rice, the top offensive player for the Ravens and then AP for the Vikings, the best RB in the league and then Josh Gordon, one of the top receivers. That is a lot of star power gone in one swoop. Believe me when I tell you I am not a fan of players who perform heinous crimes getting to play and play but something has to be done. I really believe the NFL needs to come up with a program where they reach these guys earlier in the process. Maybe high school level or early college to begin training them and educating them on life issues. Kind of what Dungy did with Michael Vick. Mentoring programs to get to these guys early before they hit the big stage.

 

Some outreach programs aren't a bad idea, but it's not really the NFL's job to make everyone be a model citizen. Some of these guys are just knuckleheads who don't respect authority. And that's not exclusive to the NFL, they just have way more players than any other professional league.

 

And honestly, I don't think the product is diminished all that much when a handful of players aren't on the field. First, it happens organically with injuries anyways. Second, the Ravens, for instance, were much better on the ground in 2014 without Ray Rice than they were in 2013 with him. Justin Forsett was kind of a big deal, and at this point, is probably better than Rice. 

 

The Browns missed Josh Gordon, the Vikings missed AP, the Panthers missed Hardy, but teams lose players all the time. Injuries, PED/drug suspensions, etc. If you can't be bothered to follow basic rules and stay out of trouble with the law, then I'm fine with the league sitting you down for a while. The league will survive. 

[amfootball]

Some outreach programs aren't a bad idea, but it's not really the NFL's job to make everyone be a model citizen. Some of these guys are just knuckleheads who don't respect authority. And that's not exclusive to the NFL, they just have way more players than any other professional league.

 

And honestly, I don't think the product is diminished all that much when a handful of players aren't on the field. First, it happens organically with injuries anyways. Second, the Ravens, for instance, were much better on the ground in 2014 without Ray Rice than they were in 2013 with him. Justin Forsett was kind of a big deal, and at this point, is probably better than Rice. 

 

The Browns missed Josh Gordon, the Vikings missed AP, the Panthers missed Hardy, but teams lose players all the time. Injuries, PED/drug suspensions, etc. If you can't be bothered to follow basic rules and stay out of trouble with the law, then I'm fine with the league sitting you down for a while. The league will survive. 

They have a program for the rookies to help them manage their money given most NFL players are broke 10 years after they retire. I do think they could institute a mentoring program and off-load it to the teams to administer to each incoming draft class. That is only approx. 7 players a season for team's to handle. Of course, you would have to blanket the entire team to start but eventually get it to where you are just hitting the draft picks and of course rookie FAs as well. The NFL has gobs of money and if their product is getting this much negative attention then they have to be more proactive. While you certainly cannot reform/help everyone, I think most players would welcome the support. I know Vick very much appreciated Dungy's involvement in his life.

 

And losing players to injury is one thing, no negative attention there but when players are involved in domestic violence, child abuse, animal abuse and drugs the league has to be more proactive in stemming the tide. Just handing out punishments does not get to the root of the issue.